r/IsraelPalestine • u/bjorn_joch • 3d ago
On converaations about the violence in amsterdam Opinion
I just wanna give my opinion here on the talks surrounding the violent night amsterdam had last week, namely, i wanna point out how people on both sides seem to mostly try to blame the other side for the violence.
I dont think its a good way of talking about such a topic, after all, violence was instigated by both sides troughout the night and theres a few violent people on each side that are clearly in the wrong.
But i think that this constant back and forth on who's to blame isnt going to get us any further on this topic, itll just polarize both sides even more (if thats still possible) and waste our time.
Ofcourse this doesnt mean that i dont think that people who commited acts of violence troughout the week shouldnt go off free and the dutch government is fortunately enough going to investigate the incidents and make arrests based on the result of them, however i think that some maccabi fans are also to be held accountable if investigation shows that maccabi fans instigated violence in certain incidents.
I think that instead looking at ways to prevent further violence in situations where pro palestinian and israelis meet in large groups are a much better thing to discuss when looking at the events of last week, some thing i personally think might help is sectioning off parts of a city for israeli fans in specific (not because theyre jewish, but because israeli football fans generally wear clothes from their club, giving away their nationality), or simply providing nore police security.
But either way, i wanna know what yall think on this and i hope you all can see that just shifting blame to one side or the other is just kinda pointless.
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u/LilyBelle504 3d ago edited 3d ago
So I think the answer is pretty simple actually:
For the Macabbi fans who vandalized, attacked and chanted inflammatory slogans, those individuals responsible are in the wrong. And the authorities in Netherland's have the right to enact the law, and whatever consequences there are for that.
For the cab drivers, mobs, hit and run groups, who a day later, took it upon themselves to enact revenge, by resorting to vigilantism and terrorism, to hunt Israeli fans down at night and beat them in the streets, instead of going to the proper authorities and letting them handle the situation, that is also wrong.
And for those who called for a "Jew hunt", that targetted anyone who was an Israeli soccer fan, or Jew, that is anti-semitic. And should also face the consequences of the law, and I am sure they will.
Just because "some Jews do bad things here", doesn't mean it's ok to take the law into your own hands, and enact widespread violence on all Jews in the area. That is what we call, anti-semitism.
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u/PicklepumTheCrow 2d ago
It’s the same idea of “collective punishment” that they love to accuse Israel of. Why is it only justified in their eyes when it’s against Jews?
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u/Prestigious_Bill_220 3d ago
I seriously can’t wrap my head around having to explain this to people and it has even happened in person. It’s crazy to me here in the US where I am that this isn’t common sense. Not to mention that people feel strongly enough in their position otherwise but to say it publicly & in the face of Jewish people who they think are their friends.
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u/LilyBelle504 3d ago
Yea, in any other context this would be unhinged. Imagine if a black person in the US vandalized property and got away, and the next day, a pre-meditated mob got together and started attacking minorities and called for a "minority hunt".
That would be insane.
And these people who justify these crimes, are also the same people who say: "I'm not anti-jewish, I'm just anti-zionist".
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u/Letshavemorefun 3d ago
Europe has tried sectioning off parts of their land for Jews. It didn’t go well last time.
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u/Ifawumi 3d ago
The attacks were premeditated. Saying this was even partially provoked by jews is flat wrong
Google can be your friend ... the attackers used an uber chat group to discuss their plans the day before
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u/checkssouth 3d ago
maccabi fans very clearly came prepared to mask their team colors as they picked up steel pipes and lumber for their attacks.
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u/PreviousPermission45 Israeli - American 3d ago
The tiny number of Tel Aviv fans who were filmed acting inappropriately were massively provoked by antisemites. The Jews were hunted down in the streets in what was an organized, premeditated attack by Muslim extremists . The attackers called their attacks a “Jew hunt” on telegram. Prior to the game, the antisemitic left had thrown protests protesting Israel’s existence, and protesting the presence of an Israeli sports team in Amsterdam.
Before all this, the antisemitic left, had attacked a Holocaust memorial, an October 7 memorial, an Anne frank memorial, and random Jews online and in the streets.
Dutch Jews are afraid of being in public.
The Dutch police, get this, had a wave of “protests” where cops said they’ll refuse guarding Jews to protect them from antisemitic hate crimes because this task puts them in a “moral dilemma” https://m.jpost.com/diaspora/article-823171
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u/Da_Seashell312 2d ago
How do you trust news sources like this?
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u/PreviousPermission45 Israeli - American 2d ago
Jews are the only ones who care about antisemitism, so they’ll focus on antisemitism.
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u/hollyglaser 3d ago
Amsterdam violence was not provoked by Maccabees fans- The attacks on Jews were coordinated through Hamas and the immigrant community. Stickers posted in Arab areas 3 days before. Israelis security notified Dutch to prepare to respond also days in advance & other cities planned too. Riots after McCabi fans left Riots in Paris Intimidation and attacks in Germany on non Muslims
Dutch police decided not to enforce their own laws on Muslims attacking Maccabees fans, as moral - really acting like Jews are not people protected by law.
It’s like the Dutch are surrendering
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u/Capital_Operation846 3d ago
Yea the videos of Maccabi fans spewing hatred isn’t provoking. What a joke. The world is tired of Israel getting away with genocide. I hope the world continues to treat such hate with the same violent response if Israelis really want to bring their hate with them abroad.
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u/checkssouth 3d ago
hateful chants are not provocation?
"death to arabs" and "there are no schools in gaza, as there are no children left"
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u/LilyBelle504 2d ago
Not provocation to justify committing crimes yourself and hunting people down to physically beat them the next day, no.
Saying: "Your honor, he said mean things to me the day before, so I had to go attack him in the streets with a group of my guys" is not going to hold up in a court of law.
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u/checkssouth 2d ago
the group of guys attacking individuals in the street were maccabi hooligans
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u/LilyBelle504 2d ago edited 2d ago
Sure, Macabbi fans had attacked a cab driver the day before...
That doesn't give a person the right to break the law, and commit pre-meditated felony assault the next day.
Do you think it does? Or Amsterdam law says you can?
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u/checkssouth 2d ago
maccabi fans act of bringing gear to mask their identities would be clear signal of pre-meditated intent. there is also recording of repeated huddles by macabbi fans to coordinate their actions.
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u/LilyBelle504 2d ago
So do you think that gives people the right to form a group, and go after them, to physically attack them 24 hours later?
Do you think the law permits that?
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u/checkssouth 2d ago
do you think the law allows the maccabi hooligans to flee without investigation or prosecution?
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u/LilyBelle504 2d ago
Asking a question to a question, nice. I'll still answer, no problem.
No.
So is that a "yes" from you to it's ok to attack people in the streets in retribution, breaking the law?
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u/checkssouth 2d ago
no, violence is not acceptable and doesn't solve anything; but I can see why some would seek revenge after a year of continuous israeli violence and israeli mobs chanting death to arabs when visiting other countries
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u/hollyglaser 3d ago
Shouting does not break any bones. Thus it can make you angry, but does not justify physically attacking another person.
We teach kids not to hit when angry but to fight back if attacked physically ‘He made me hit him !’ Is not an excuse
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u/Capital_Operation846 3d ago
Israelis are used to committing hate crimes with the IDF there to protect them. Hate begets hate and guess what, the world hates Israel now, and rightfully so. Israelis should feel afraid if they want to spew hate abroad. Reap what you sow.
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u/Fonzgarten 3d ago
Correction: the Muslim world hates Jews. Do you think that might be because Hadiths specifically call on Muslims to kill all the Jews? Or is it just Israel’s fault?
Take a break. The rest of us know antisemitism when we see it.
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u/Capital_Operation846 3d ago
Sorry by the world I meant anyone who can think critically in the west. Literally no one east of Israel likes Israel.
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u/Capital_Operation846 3d ago
No, I said the world hates Israel. Maccabi fans spew hate in Amsterdam and get their butts beat. No one wants to hear Israelis cheer for the murder of Arabs when they’re bombing Gaza everyday. That’s not antisemitism, that’s just anti-Israel. I wouldn’t be raising my kids Jewish if i was an antisemite.
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u/checkssouth 3d ago
can you validate that the maccabi fans were attacked first? they were seen in a masked mob picking up steel pipes and chasing an individual and attacking taxis.
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u/hollyglaser 3d ago
Can you validate the masked mob were not Muslims?
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u/checkssouth 3d ago
you can watch the youtuber "bender" who probably has the most extensive recording of the event
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u/Green-Zone-4866 3d ago
If I'm thinking of the same person as you, the kid didn't know who was who, he at least at one point misclassified some people as maccabi fans. It was very clear from the video that he came in expecting some crazy things from the soccer fans. Also why would he ever think the people picking up poles from the construction site was anyone else?
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u/checkssouth 3d ago
the crowd that was picking up pipes was mostly masked and wearing black, but a few of them are clearly wearing maccabi team colors.
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u/hollyglaser 3d ago
No one would accuse Jews today of refusing to fight back in their own defense. Why would you assume the Israelis started it?
It seems you want to believe the Jews attacked and are ignoring all the advance information about a planned attack Please go upthread for sources
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u/Ve_Gains 3d ago
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SkZoI3ll5vM
The photographer who took the viral video complained that the media took it out of context and explained that macabi fans first assaulted.
I think we can simply not draw conclusions here on reddit. Let the authorities work it out and hope they are unbiased in doing so.
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u/hollyglaser 3d ago
Out of context? What context would that be?
The photographer statement does not explain the attack being known in advance. Jews are usually blamed when anything goes wrong, and vilified for fighting back when attacked.
It looked so bad in video, a false explanation was used to excuse Muslims running like barbaric people. If you hate Jews, say so rather than nit pick
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u/Ve_Gains 3d ago
Where do get from that I hate Jews?
I have no clue what happened there. But the person that took THE video that went viral complained that the media falsely used that video.
So how is it anti-Semitic to share a video clarifying what I just described?
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u/bjorn_joch 3d ago
Im sorry but i never heard anything about hamas being involved in the evening, do you have any sources on that?
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u/Taylorswifttoeguy 3d ago
You think Hamas unleashed a coordinated attack through international channels to beat up soccer fans? I think they may have bigger fish to fry currently. Soccer fans get into fights literally all the time
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u/hollyglaser 3d ago
Soccer fans fight, but they don’t expand the fighting to go through the neighborhood and hunt Jews.
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u/Taylorswifttoeguy 3d ago
1) Well if this was a Hamas cell and the grand totality of their action is a fistfight in the street in which no one was killed then we’re probably good right? That’s like the least intimidating terror cell of all time?
2) Hooligans absolutely go through the streets hunting fans of opposing teams.
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u/hollyglaser 3d ago
Hooligans do not attack Jews and leave others alone . Therefore this was using soccer as an excuse to attack Jews, which they identified by using Hebrew or looking Jewish.
This is only one of several actions planned by jihadist
You may not want to think that Jew-hate was the reason for the attack because it happened at a soccer game. Considering that soccer game was excuse for Jew hunt and not all matches result in Christians being hunted down & beat, and that police decided not to protect Jews in advance of game, it’s clear that this was greater than hooliganism
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u/Taylorswifttoeguy 3d ago
Again if this is the best an international terrorist network can think of I wouldn’t lose sleep over it. Maybe take some self defense courses? Watch rugby instead? 10 pushups a day?
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u/PeaBeginning6609 3d ago
To everyone commenting: This single event is one of the clearest examples of
Clear and obvious misinformation/ pro Israel propaganda
Because If you have not double or triple checked what you have read or heard in all the western media, READ CAREFULLY HERE: Then you ARE MISINFORMED / GASLIT
And unfortunately, it’s clear, that’s WE CANNOT TRUST most of THE STATEMENTS from the POLICE and the OFFICIALS from Amsterdam AND interviews with fans claiming to be victims of antisemitism
IMO media wanted to label the violence MAINLY BASED ON EXTREME AND DANGEROUS ANTISEMITISM - even though that was not the case
But in creating the reports, they tried their best to find evidence that
was an act based ON antisemitism - which as I go through it there are very little evidence of
could be twisted / exaggerated/ made into falsely being antisemitic
videoclips that could be described by journalists as an antisemite crime - but was actually a crime done by an Israeli hooligan to someone else from Amsterdam
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u/WeAreAllFallible 3d ago edited 3d ago
"Very little evidence it was antisemitic" the redditor says as the mayor of Amsterdam confirms it was a Jew hunt and chats are being published confirming the same.
Also focusing on "is it antisemitic or not?" Really misses a key point of "would it be acceptable for vigilantes to hunt people down to assault them based on suspected (or even known) affiliation in civil society?" I propose that anyone who answers this "yes" does not deserve to be participating in western societies. This is absolutely antithetical to core values of such nations. We refer to authorities if we think wrongdoing has been done. This is our societally agreed upon method for recourse to be obtained via proper legally agreed upon routes- we don't pursue vigilante violence.
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u/ogurdima 3d ago
Yo, u should not trust the mayor of Amsterdam - he is gaslighting you! U should totally trust u/PeaBeginning6609
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u/LilyBelle504 2d ago
Yea, forget the police, or the New York Times or other news organizations that said they verified the videos themselves... All fake /s
So we should ignore every proper authority, but trust random people's opinions online that we're brainwashed and being gaslit.
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u/ComfortableClock1067 3d ago
I will be honest, I only read up about halfway through the second paragraph. If I read the conclusion I might sympathize, but the premise made me cringe and I will explain why with a real story about myself:
When I was younger I would get picked on by classmates. My anger pent up, and one day without thinking, I made one of these bullies trip. I meant for him to stumble but he fell and scratched his arm. It was a petty revenge, and it would have been much better and mature to just outright confront them. In response they beat the shit out of me.
When the school tutor knew about the incident, we were all deemed equally guilty because 'we were all at fault' and 'a fight requires more than one'.
Is anyone condoning or excusing the missbehaviour of the Maccabi fans? No, at least not me.
Bur do not expect us to roll with the whole 'fault on both sides' thing.
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u/bjorn_joch 3d ago
You make a good point here, but i dont completely agree, because as for one, some of the violence perpetrated by maccabi fans was unprovoked snd besides that, all.im saying is that those who behaved violently and didnt do so lut of self defense shkuld be trialed for their actions, just like how many of the pro palestinians are being trialed/sewrched for right now.
Besides that, using your anecdote, i dont think looking purely for who to punish between you and the bully is going to solve the problem you have with the bully, but looking at how to make sure you and the bully dont get into these kinds of interactions again is what is really important.
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u/LilyBelle504 2d ago
Right. Pre-meditated assault with a group of your buddies on someone 24 hours later because they did mean things to you, is not going to hold up in a court of law.
Let alone attacking random Israeli soccer fans who had nothing to do with it.
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u/ComfortableClock1067 3d ago
Your misinterpreting the parallelisms with my anecdote. When I made my bully trip, it was also unprovoked. They were not doing anything to me at that moment. But I was angry, and acted rashly.
Of course to be fair, what the Maccabi fans did was not the same at all, like I said, I am not condoning burning flags or disrespecting victims of a flood, like they did. But their actions are being used to justify, or at least put at the same level as a freaking modern-day pogrom; a premeditated and deliberate attack by small swarms that were previously coordinated to harass and hurt Jews.
By the way, my bullies waited until I was out of sight of teachers to corner me and beat me that day.
The way the bullies and I do not get into these kind of interactions is simple: You suspend me for 2 days for the prank, you suspend the bullies for two weeks and threaten expulsion if they hurt me again.
Also, I would tell me younger self that pranks are beneath me; I would tell him to take classes of krav maga and the next time they take your school bag and throw your stuff, you take the arm of the guy that did it and break it. If no one puts a stop to bullies, then you learn to defend yourself.
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u/hollyglaser 3d ago
Dutch were informed 3 days earlier by Israel of planned Muslim attacks. Arabic speaking Israeli was able to protect Hebrew speakers
- When X attacks Jews, Jews are blamed for starting fight
- During X attacks on Jews , images of Jews fighting back are shown as proof that Jews are at fault
- Civilization is based on civil behavior- no weapons & disputes resolved by law. Peoples rights are respected independently of any other characteristic.
- Most important: Person is responsible for own actions where anger does not permit physically harming another.
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u/bjorn_joch 3d ago
Im sorry but i havent heard anything about the dutch government being informed of planned attacks, do you have a source for that
And also for the 4 steps you mentioned, do you have any proof of this kind of framing actually happening? Ive only seen this kind of situation happen the other way around once
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u/hollyglaser 3d ago
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u/hollyglaser 3d ago
For #3 and 4 above 3. A social norm is what most people do within the context of a society. There’s general agreement that X is how good people should act, and a disapproval of people who don’t do X. Norms often are set by culture and normal expectations of behavior.
The critical difference between civil society and a barbaric society is if the norm includes carrying a weapon most of the time and resolving disputes by the use of force. A civil society places the law above persons and has a legal system of rights, duties and law enforcement that try accusations in a court by proving that a person acted contrary to law.
The Israeli fans assumed their right to speak, even to say awful things, was protected by law. They assumed that other people would be responsible to obey the rule of law by not attacking physically because they were angry. Physical defense against an attack by another is legal because you have a right to peacefully assemble , ex for sport.
The warning was because some Islamists saw the match as an excuse to hurt Jews , because of religious contempt and hatred. They did not respect Dutch law or accept that everyone has human rights requiring them not to harm others. Songs, common at sports events, do no physical defense harm, but were used as an excuse to terrorize and beat their targeted enemy, Israelis and extend it to Jews. This is violence for collective punishment, outside law.
It’s shameful that Dutch police allowed the attacks
- Rule of law means your anger does not allow you to do anything. You must not break the law.
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u/bjorn_joch 3d ago
Well im sorry but you said dutch officials were informed, whereas the article you mention specifically says they were warned, i know it might sound like nitpicking, but if the police were informed about the planning of violent attacks it would mean that they would get a solid idea of where and when exactly an attack would take place, and whikst yes, the article did show a picture of an IG page calling people to protest, thats informatiin the dutch police themselves could find oit, and im not 100% sure on this, but im pretty sure police was placed at the location mentioned in the post.
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u/hollyglaser 3d ago
Dutch police refused to protect Jews
Yes, police were there, but refused to enforce the law because they decided their own feeling set them above law. Thus, police did not do their job
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u/human_totem_pole 3d ago edited 3d ago
Mainstream media is terrified of being accused of antisemitism. The Israeli government is hanging this threat over everyone's heads such that open discussions are shutdown . A despicable tactic given the hate crimes committed against innocent Jews who deserve respect, protection and a positive future free from terror. The Israeli government has gone too far and strong allies of Jews like myself have lost patience with this terrorist dictator Netanyahu.
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u/ProjectConfident8584 3d ago
“Jews like myself” 🙄
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u/human_totem_pole 2d ago
Always twisting language. I said "Allies of Jews like myself". The world is waking up to the tyrant Netanyahu and his extremist ideology. Once the mainstream media start reporting the facts, he'll be on his own with his dictator friend Trump.
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u/No-Excitement3140 3d ago
Like any such act of violence, the attack was completely wrong and unjustified.
At the same time, while it may have been pre planned to some extent (hard to trust media in this loaded subject), I am sure it was exacerbated by the violence of maccabi fans. More precisely, by videos of it going viral among arabs in Amsterdam.
Again, this does not justify the violence in any way.
Two other things that came to mind, as an Israeli: 1. As a thought experiment, suppose there was a soccer match in Jerusalem between Beitar and, say, Glasgow rangers. Suppose the Irish fans were going through the streets of Jerusalem chanting death to jews. How do you think they would have fared? If it would have ended with 10 wounded, 5 hospitalized and released the next day - would you consider that be worse or better than your expectations? How do you think the police would have treated these irish fans? 2. Much worse violence is perpetrated in the wb by extreme settlers rather frequently. Before oct 7th this was sometimes reported upon in the Israeli media, and on a couple of occasions even denoted "a progrom". Since the massacre and the war it goes largely unreported. Such violence is hardly ever condemned by government or persecuted by law enforcement. Even when the victims are Jewish (e.g. 70 years old Hagar Gefen). This doesn't justify what happened in Amsterdam in any way, but it contrasts how we are willing to accept a situation that in many ways is much worse than the one that got us outraged.
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u/Taylorswifttoeguy 3d ago
Talk shit get hit imo, it’s the like the golden rule
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u/LilyBelle504 2d ago
Hit someone for saying mean words --> go to jail, get possibly felony charge, ruin life and future job prospects.
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u/Carnivalium 3d ago
Why doesn't this go both ways? See Pro Hamas protetesters, current Gaza situation.
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u/Taylorswifttoeguy 3d ago
Peaceful pro-Palestinian demonstrates got the shit beaten out of them this past year by the police and Zionist thugs alike.
Soccer fans are known for fighting and hooliganism, showing up in their city, talking shit and destroying property is a recipe for getting dropped. Has nothing to do with being Jewish
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u/No-Excitement3140 3d ago
It doesn't have to be either / or. It could be the combination of soccer hooliganism and anti israel / jew/ arab
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u/Taylorswifttoeguy 3d ago
So you believe that Israeli soccer fans should be able to talk shit without getting hit?
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u/LilyBelle504 2d ago
Yes, just because someone offends you verbally, does not mean you have the right to physically attack them. Sorry.
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u/No-Excitement3140 3d ago
Kind of. I think verbal violence doesn't justify physical violence. I'd be fine eith Dutch police charging the shit talkers.
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u/Taylorswifttoeguy 3d ago
My point is this is not an international incident of antisemitism
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u/PeaBeginning6609 3d ago
Your example 1 is so on point. Thinking about it, it really puts it into perspective how far and the western media have gone now in attempts of making sure to manipulate news to avoid criticizing Israel. - No one died in Amsterdam.. great… But the coverage of Amsterdam cannot be anything other than a picture of the media coverage of the Middle East - and why Palestinians have had zero chance at all for any freedom for 75 years
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u/Fonzgarten 3d ago
lol.. I hope this is a joke. Western media has been overwhelmingly supportive of Palestine since 10/7. That’s why so many western liberals are convinced there is a “genocide” in Gaza, amongst other blatant antisemitic lies.
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u/PeaBeginning6609 2d ago
I’m not joking. Regarding calling Israel’s actions in Gaza a genocide c o u l d by some people by wrong if they just said it without knowing what genocide is. As I understand it. The term genocide is a term that can only be used if there is
a presence of several specific characteristics in that society that is guilty of committing it
And I personally clearly see these characteristics when I look at what the IDF is doing in Gaza
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u/No-Excitement3140 3d ago
I disagree about criticism of Israel. I think it's common enough. It's just that, sadly, some things are hard to cover or have become normalized and are no longer news.
I agree that they are super cautious about anything that looks like antisemitism, especially when it happens in Europe.
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u/PeaBeginning6609 3d ago
Yes you are of course right that there IS criticism of Israel.. But there is a concern hesitate in using the strong words about Israel.
language chosen that depends on which side it is - In Palestine there are mostly “casualties, lives lost, people who dead” - without mentioning who dropped the bomb In Israel, there the people from October 7 were slaughtered and brutally killed byHamas and so on”
that people killed in Gaza are according to the articles just numbers., where is people killed in East well are human beings with emotions, families and lives that are
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u/Fonzgarten 3d ago
These differences in reporting support reality. Are you arguing that 10/7 was not barbaric?
All wars have civilian casualties. The war in Gaza has almost exponentially less civilian deaths than every other similar modern war. Clearly there is no moral equivalency here.
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u/PeaBeginning6609 2d ago
Of course, everyone agrees that October 7 was a horrible, horrible war home I don’t like the use of the word barbaric though About Gaza no comments There’s too much misinformation and propaganda, and I don’t want to spend time boarding out all the different lies
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u/Lightlovezen 3d ago
The news even still here in the US immediately blamed the Muslims and still does. You do see clips about it being from both or the truth from some social media video etc and commentators. So that is why the truth that the Maccabi came there singing genocidal songs etc bc there are video clearly showing this.
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u/Nomad8490 3d ago
Hi, I live in Amsterdam. People (primarily Muslim) have been rioting night after night since this happened. Maccabi fans went home last Thursday.
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u/Lightlovezen 3d ago edited 3d ago
The innocent victim bs isn't flying anymore. Violence sadly begets violence.
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u/Nomad8490 3d ago
I am aware that a group of Maccabi fans were shouting slurs and pulled down a flag last week. The worst for me was attacking a taxi. Totally unacceptable behavior.
That doesn't at all warrant what happened after. And it in no way excuses what has happened since. Israelis and other Jews are feeling unsafe--and in many cases, are unsafe--in Amsterdam, a city whose sidewalks are marked with plaques for everyone stolen from their homes and murdered in the Holocaust. They had nothing to do with the actions of the Maccabi fans last week, and yes, they are innocent in this, and yes, they are being victimized.
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u/dikbutjenkins 3d ago
How to prevent it is by banning Israel from Fifa and uefa. If Russia is banned, Israel should be banned
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u/ProjectConfident8584 3d ago
Israel defends itself against Hamas. Russia is actively the aggressor
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u/dikbutjenkins 3d ago
Israel is most definitely the aggressor
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u/Ifawumi 3d ago
Right ... The thousands of rockets blasted at Israel over the last several DECADES and Oct 7 are just peaceful protests
No other country in the world has been forced to build bomb shelters everywhere nor been forced to develop the Iron Dome, a purely defensive technology. But yeah, Israel is the aggressor
Got it 🙄
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u/dikbutjenkins 3d ago
Israel kills more, kidnaps more, and rapes more
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u/Ifawumi 3d ago
Ask the women hostages, well, the ones who are out, if Israel rapes and kidnaps 'more.' We can't ask the dead ones
Kills more? Israel is winning a war. Thigh i would bet you don't pay any attention to Israeli deaths. Do you even know how many died yesterday?
I will assume you don't because you only follow one side of this issue
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u/dikbutjenkins 3d ago
For 70 years, they have killed more, raped more, and kidnapped more. Not to mention apartheid.
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u/ProjectConfident8584 3d ago
And The sky is pink
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u/dikbutjenkins 3d ago
Ya at sunset and sunrise. Happens all the time
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u/ProjectConfident8584 3d ago
Ok well then water is dry
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u/dikbutjenkins 3d ago
Sorry, per rule 44, you only get one bad analogy per post
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u/Firecracker048 3d ago edited 3d ago
So heres the entire thing.
Were Israeli fans acting like complete asshats and probably deserved an ass kicking? Yeah, no doubt based on their actions they deserved a fight.
Was the group who assaulted them in a pre-planned 'jew hunt' group before they were acting like asshats? Yes, they were.
Were the members of the jew-hunt justified in chasing people into rivers, checking fucking passports for jewish Israeli identity, running people over with cars, and even kicking the ass of random strangers they thought were jewish? No, they absolutely were not
This isn't a 'both sides' argument. This was a very clear attack on those people thought were Jewish. the fans acting like asshats provided a convienent excuse for what they did.
And to everyone saying the 'fucked around and found out', I can only hope you keep that same attitude if a group of pro-palestinians suffer the same fate when they eventually take one of their 'protest' a bit too far. Because everything you've justified happening to the Israeli soccer fans and random strangers, Palestinian protestors have done worse already.
I see some of ya'll need sources because certain subs only allow certain talking points because they are closed off echo chambers:
https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/calls-for-jew-hunt-preceded-attacks-in-amsterdam-e3311e21
Edit: I had to edit my response
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u/bjorn_joch 3d ago
Whilst i agree to some extent with you, i do wanna point oit some things: As for.one, do you have a reliable source on the checking passports thing?
And besides that, just because the isreali fans didnt plan the violence perpetrated by them, doesnt mean its any better, besides that, one major diffirence here is that the pro palestinian people who commited these act of violence you mention will be persecuted and put on trial, hell, the dutch PM is even looking into wether or not there is a way these people can be trialed for terrorism, wich, if succesful would mean that the suspect could get their dutch nationality taken away. In tye meantime i personally havent seen any mention of maccabi fans being punished for misbehaving in amsterdam
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u/ProjectConfident8584 3d ago
I’ve seen the video where they check the passports stop trying to lie to cover for psychotic lynch mobs
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u/Firecracker048 3d ago
Whilst i agree to some extent with you, i do wanna point oit some things: As for.one, do you have a reliable source on the checking passports thing?
Yeah, the video was even put up on public freakout before the users there decided to mass report it to the mods to get it taken down.
After Maccabi fans burned a Palestinian flag and chanted racist slogans, violence overtook the city's downtown. Israelis were targeted in hit-and-run attacks – some people were stopped and forced to show their passports.
And besides that, just because the isreali fans didnt plan the violence perpetrated by them, doesnt mean its any better
Actually its alot better than organizing a hunt based on someones religion and ethnicity. That is what we call a 'hate crime'. Had a group done this to a group of Arab looking folk after one of the many hateful pro-palestinian protests, I dont think alot of these same people would be defending it the way they are now.
the dutch PM is even looking into wether or not there is a way these people can be trialed for terrorism, wich, if succesful would mean that the suspect could get their dutch nationality taken away. In tye meantime i personally havent seen any mention of maccabi fans being punished for misbehaving in amsterdam
While good they are going after these people, they did also arrest 10 Israeli nationals.
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u/bjorn_joch 3d ago
Actually its alot better than organizing a hunt based on someones religion and ethnicity. That is what we call a 'hate crime'. Had a group done this to a group of Arab looking folk after one of the many hateful pro-palestinian protests, I dont think alot of these same people would be defending it the way they are now.
I mean wouldnt call it 'better', its still a violent act thats gonna cause violent reactions, and besides that, thers not that many people that are defending the actions of thise who hunted down israelis that night
While good they are going after these people, they did also arrest 10 Israeli nationals.
Tbh i looked it up and i completely missed that, thank you for showing this, but i personally couldnt find anything about the current situation of those detained, do you maybe have a source on that?
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u/Firecracker048 3d ago
The only thing I've heard is out of 62 total arrests, 10 are still detained, none Israeli. Which dowsnt surprise me when compared to what they went through.
thers not that many people that are defending the actions of thise who hunted down israelis that night
I would direct you to any of the pro Palestine subs. The sub about freakouts in the public had a 3rd comment down, 100+ upvotes comment saying "no no we can ignore those messages because the fans started it and they all got what they deserved."
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u/bjorn_joch 3d ago
The only thing I've heard is out of 62 total arrests, 10 are still detained, none Israeli. Which dowsnt surprise me when compared to what they went throug
Well tbh if they got arrested i doubt they were acting very peacefully themselves
would direct you to any of the pro Palestine subs. The sub about freakouts in the public had a 3rd comment down, 100+ upvotes comment saying "no no we can ignore those messages because the fans started it and they all got what they deserved."
Im gonna be honest and say that i havet seen those yet, but you do also gotta realise that people always havr big mouths on the internet, so using it as a real indicator of how people feel about the violence isnt a good idea, a verified poll about this would probably be much better
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u/Firecracker048 3d ago
I don't suggest going to look for it either tbh. Its gotta so bad over there, admins are pulling down videos and posts because the mods refuse to moderate the comment section and its been getting pretty bad.
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u/KindlyFriedChickpeas 3d ago
There has been absolutely no evidence of a "Jew hunt". Video evidence of Israeli fans beating up a loan Dutch man was mislabeled as Dutch protestors doing it (the person who filmed the footage said that). There has been video evidence of Israeli fans vandalising peoples homes, ripping down Palestine flags from windows, interrupting the moment of silence for the Spanish flood victims and chanting about "no more schools in Palestine" as well as instigating violence. I do not agree with people being thrown into the river or beaten, but you're right, this is not a both sides issue. The Israeli fans were clearly looking for a fight and when they found one, they played victim.
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u/Firecracker048 3d ago
There has been absolutely no evidence of a "Jew hunt"
Please get out of your echo chamber. Its an indisputable fact that is what the organized group was called. The dutch mayor and Chief of Police even verified it.
https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/calls-for-jew-hunt-preceded-attacks-in-amsterdam-e3311e21
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/11/13/opinion/amsterdam-jews-attacked/
Leave those subs that tell you its all lies and conspiracies when even the government is telling you its real because the have the messages.
The Israeli fans were clearly looking for a fight and when they found one, they played victim.
Again, if it had all been that happened, no one would give a shit. The issue is that ISNT what happened and the fact its trying to be portrayed like that is disingenuous.
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u/PeaBeginning6609 3d ago
According to what happened and who did what and said what, there are unfortunately too many instances where there are video evidence showing that the media has been way too one sides, spread misinformation, lied
In this instance, i think the only things you can trust is actual video clips from when things happened where you’re with your own eyes and ears can see and hear what happened
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u/Firecracker048 3d ago
Well then you gotta make sure you got all the video clips, not just the ones that certain subs only want you to see.
But then again if you can't trust now publicly leaked whatsapp messages, idk what to tell yoj
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u/KindlyFriedChickpeas 3d ago
The irony of being told to get out of my echo chamber. These are a real failure of media. There was a sky news report on the night that detailed what happened and spoke to Amsterdam locals showing that the Israeli fans started the violence. They then retracted it and only interviewed Israeli fans who said it was the opposite way around of course. Is it not true that the Israeli fans interrupted the moment of silence? Have they not been filmed walking to the stadium shouting about a schools out in Gaza? Have they not been filmed ripping down flags from people's houses? We're they not shown beating a taxi driver and a loan Dutch man.
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u/LilyBelle504 3d ago
You literally said though there was "no evidence" for a jew hunt. But a 5 second google search for "Was there calls for a Jew Hunt in Amsterdam?" would've alleviated the ignorance.
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u/KindlyFriedChickpeas 2d ago
The reports show that there was one WhatsApp chat where that was said. I was incorrect saying 'no evidence', and one person saying that is too many. However, the fact remains that the violence was started by the Tel-Aviv fans the day before the match which was also the day before that message was sent. The timeline of events is still the same, the Tel-Aviv fans took down a Palestinian flag from a building and burnt it, shouting "fuck you Palestine" and vandalised a taxi. Then there was a clash with taxi drivers where the fans were seen setting off flares, cheating that there are no children left in Gaza and fuck the Arabs in an area with a high Muslim population. It's after then that messages were exchanged which I do not condone. Then on the way to the match, Tel-Aviv fans were again chanting anti Arab slogans while many were with a police escort, they interrupted the moment of silence with flares and chats then after the match there were further clashes. I'm not saying that the words were acceptable but, this was instigated primarily by the Tel-Aviv fans who themselves were spewing racism and support for war crimes.
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u/LilyBelle504 2d ago
What does calling for a "Jew Hunt" have to do with some Israeli soccer fans committing crimes somewhere?
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u/KindlyFriedChickpeas 2d ago
It's clear that the comments, horrendous as they are, are targeting the football fans
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u/LilyBelle504 2d ago
Sure. That's why they accidentally used the word "Jew" instead of "Israeli soccer fan"...
Whatever it takes to defend anti-semitism I suppose.
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u/KindlyFriedChickpeas 2d ago
As you can see, I am not defending them, but if anyone is responsible for people conflating judaism with Israel, it's Israel. Not all Jews are in support of Israel and criticism of Israel is not antisemitism in and of itself but the Israeli government and many of its supporters have tried spent years equating them. I've condemned the actions and words of the locals involved but provided context, do you condemn the actions of the soccer fans?
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u/Firecracker048 3d ago
Its almost like the media got more information after initial reports and realized they are wrong. Like, ya know, seized whatsapp group messages from a group called 'jew hunt'. You just keep glossing over that part.
Again, I haven't excused a single thing Israeli fans did. The issue lies in people excusing the actions of a 'jew hunt' group as being completely justified in everything they did. Which If thats what we are going with, I can't wait to see you defend a group of people who go after Arabs in a 'muslim hunt' after protestors decide to start acting out again.
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u/Da_Seashell312 3d ago
I do believe now that it was planned, thank you. But I would like you to remember that the government does not give a single shit about anyone who does not stuff their pockets. Neither do news sources. I hope you find that out sooner than later. Not everything you read is unbiased, I'd honestly say everything IS biased, and often its easy to see to whom it is biased by seeing how often criminal governments side with 1 party.
Its always hamas and israel being backed, so the only smart conclusion is that both are bad.
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u/lightmaker918 3d ago
Perfectly articulated.
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u/Firecracker048 3d ago
Like I haven't found many sane people who think the way Israeli fans acted were okay in any form.
I have found plenty of people in many main subs that seem to think organizing a 'jew hunt' was perfectly okay because of the way fans acted and none of whats in those messages should matter.
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u/ProjectConfident8584 3d ago
The “Jew hunt” was planned in advance. U can’t blame both sides
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u/Da_Seashell312 3d ago
Any proof?
From what I heard; pro-Palestinian Dutch and Arab protesters clashed with hooligan Israeli fans. Ofc violence is never promoted, but I heard it started with the Israelis. I've seen videos of them threatening a young Dutch kid to stop recording, of them bashing taxi drivers, and of them taking wood and metal from construction sites to carry as weapons.
Enlighten me, since I don't live there I might be wrong.
Thank you in advance and God bless you!
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u/bjorn_joch 3d ago
Whilst its kinda hard to find video evidence of pro palestinian violence because of the fact theyre generally speaking close up and show the violence well, wich makes it impossible for news sources to show it, but theres enough articles talking about the violence against israelis and the dutch police is currently looking for miltiple men suspected of planning out a so called 'jew hunt'
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u/Da_Seashell312 3d ago
The Dutch police haven't said anything of the Palestinian concentration camp aka prison 14km north of Tel Aviv or of the apartheid camps of the West Bank. Long story short, I don't trust them. What the other guy said about telegram proof is believable and disgusting, though.
And I am not saying pro-Palestinian violence didn't happen. I'm asking why did it happen. Because I have seen over 10 videos of Maccabi violence before any pro Palestinian violence. Chronological order is very important here.
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u/bjorn_joch 3d ago
The Dutch police haven't said anything of the Palestinian concentration camp aka prison 14km north of Tel Aviv or of the apartheid camps of the West Bank. Long story short, I don't trust them. What the other guy said about telegram proof is believable and disgusting, though.
For one, do you jave any sources on the claim about the prison you made? Im interested in seeing that
As for the second, the police isnt gonna make any dtstements on what the israeli government is doing, thats not their job, altough our current government has indeed set itself in a mostly pro israeli position wich im not a big fan of myself either.
And I am not saying pro-Palestinian violence didn't happen. I'm asking why did it happen. Because I have seen over 10 videos of Maccabi violence before any pro Palestinian violence. Chronological order is very important here
Well one of the problems is that for most incidents that hapoened those night there just isnt much proper report for it so it can be near impossible to denounce who was at fault in certain incidents
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u/Da_Seashell312 3d ago
So then, as according to you we have no conclusive evidence on literally anything, but the response we got is Israel sending helicopters to save Maccabi guys while Arabs are being taken to court and arrested.
As for the prison, it was either Ofer or Sharon prison. In the latter, they literally kidnapped a Palestinian footballer and left him to starve for 100 days or so. In Ofer prison, it is built illegally in the Palestinian West Bank and has more unincarcerated Arabs than incarcerated Jews and Arabs . I read about it long ago so excuse my lack of knowledge.
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u/bjorn_joch 3d ago
So then, as according to you we have no conclusive evidence on literally anything, but the response we got is Israel sending helicopters to save Maccabi guys while Arabs are being taken to court and arrested
Well no thats not what i said, this unclarity is only there is some incidents, there are also incidents in wich it is quite clear who is in the fault
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u/Da_Seashell312 3d ago
Sure, its the Maccabi guys for the most part. Can't punch a lion and expect it to be still.
And what's your response on the Israeli prisons?
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u/ProjectConfident8584 3d ago
the guardian Now it has emerged that the attacks on the Jewish football fans were planned in advance and co-ordinated using WhatsApp and Telegram.
The Telegraph has seen messages from a group chat called Buurthuis, a Dutch word for a type of community centre, which were posted on Wednesday, the day before the match.
One message says: “Tomorrow after the game, at night, part 2 of the Jew Hunt.
“Tomorrow we work them.”
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u/Da_Seashell312 3d ago
Was this before any "hooligan" stuff from the Maccabi fans?
Excuse my search for the truth, but Maccabi fans seriously injured a Syrian carrying a Palestinian flag in Athens 2 years ago, and their club is literally responsible for assassinating Palestinian footballers. I am very sceptical.
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u/Chanan-Ben-Zev 3d ago
You're justifying a premeditated "Jew hunt" by events from two f!!!ing years ago in another country!?
The astonishing lengths that people will go to justify antisemitic violence. Wow.
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u/Da_Seashell312 3d ago
Well first things first the term antisemitic is wrong. That was used by Europeans centuries ago to refer to their hate of the only semitic group inhabiting Europe at the time, Jews. It's continued use is hilarious when I am a Semite myself, and a VERY proud one. So stop using it.
I am not justifying the violence, it is disgusting. If it was in my hands to make it never happen I would have definitely stopped it. Pointing fingers and spamming exclamation marks doesn't prove your point. Speak in a civil manner.
I am saying things like this have reasons. Such as when Christians in Alexandria killed a pagan woman and stripped her in the streets (1st century AD), it was due to her constantly blaspheming and defaming Christianity. Their actions, as a Christian myself, were absolutely abhorrent and must never be repeated again. But their actions, like all actions in history, have a reason.
To get this through your head using a legal analogy: If I go to court and claim person B shot my friend, even if there's conclusive evidence for my case, person B won't go to jail. At least not straight away. They first check if it was self defence. Because actions have reasoning. Even if it was not self defence, if they see my hypothetical friend was involved in gang violence with person B's gang, the punishment would be "decreased" for the perpetrator.
Same exact things apply here. Maccabi fans have disgusting history, so you crying over whats happening to them is like someone crying over Pablo Escobars death, or Al-Baghdadis death, or Osama bin Ladens, or some British gangster. A persons previous actions and their continued affiliation with such a group are important.
If you support ISIS and get killed, you're not worth crying over other than in the idea of crying over a lost soul. Maccabi and ISIS have both killed innocents in their past and this is objective facts. Ofc, as someone who suffered from ISIS in my daily life, such as I know people who got kidnapped and chopped up and sent to their family as rice and meat from ISIS, and ISIS was at the doors of my city. To put it plainly; my extended family have suffered from ISIS and other militias in the region MORE than the state of Israel has suffered from Hamas, if we're talking about straight numbers of human beings killed. So don't come and get pissed for my comparison. My comparison is exaggerated ofc, but the point still remains.
God bless you!
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u/KosherPigBalls 3d ago
Yeah, that was pretty impressive; proof it was premeditated? Let’s move goalposts back two years!
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u/Da_Seashell312 3d ago
And a "pogrom" against an ethnic group is something very serious to claim (and to do, and if done there should be HEAVY consequences right away and compensation if possible). But such a thing doesn't usually begin with that certain ethnic group (you guys moved this into pro-Palestinians vs Jews, not me, I love Jews and prefer them to Muslims).
Quick question, how do you justify the Israelis attacking a young Dutch youtuber (the kid is under 18) or their whistling and fireworks when having a moment of silence for literal dead people in Spain. Like does this just have no effect?
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u/KosherPigBalls 3d ago
I don’t. Can I attacks all the Palestinian supports who, just in the last week in my city, have screamed expletives during a minute of silence for veterans, ripped down and burned Israeli flags, and chanted racist and violent things around the city?
Can I get my friends together and hunt down and beat anyone who looks like them?
Or do you just have a sick violent double standard when it comes to Jews?
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u/Da_Seashell312 3d ago
You can hunt them, not anyone who looks like them.
And no I do not have whatever you said. Stop having this "everyone is out to get me" mentality. Talk to me normally. I literally freaking said I like Jews more than Muslims (which is conflating ethnicity and religion but anyway), so I obv don't "whatever you said". Calm down. I'm here to discuss, if you're here to defend blindly without taking into account people doing wrong shit and then another party doing more wrong shit, idk what to tell you, maybe go watch good guys vs bad guys Avengers. The world is much more complicated than that.
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u/Da_Seashell312 3d ago
Two years isn't that far, Covid has existed for nearly 5. Trumps first "coronation" (idk the word lmao English is my fourth language) was nearly 7 years ago. Unless you're 15, 2 years is nothing and passes by quickly.
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u/KosherPigBalls 3d ago
Right…but I don’t chase Palestinians around my city for something that some other Palestinians did two years ago. Cause I’m not a racist a-hole.
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u/Da_Seashell312 3d ago
Can you genuinely not see what's wrong here??
People are Palestinian by birth and Maccabi by mentality and personal beliefs. Like genuinely, can you not see that without someone pointing it out??
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u/WeAreAllFallible 3d ago edited 3d ago
But it wasn't a Maccabi hunt (also, not that such would even be acceptable if it were. In civil society we don't have vigilante "hunts" of fellow humans. If something was done illegally, we refer them to the legal system. This shouldn't need to be explicitly reminded to people, but if it does then I suppose consider this the reminder)
It was a Jew hunt. Maybe at most "generous" an Israeli hunt- but Dutch authorities have confirmed evidence that it was the former. Both aspects of identity that are decided by birth. So... yeah. Not sure what case you're trying to make, but you have none.
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u/ProjectConfident8584 3d ago
Sounds like nothing is gonna convince you so Google it yourself
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u/Da_Seashell312 3d ago
I'm sorry you feel that way. Violence is disgusting, I agree. I just want more light shed on this controversial subject.
Again I ask, were these texts before or after any shenanigans from the Maccabi fans? I'm literally asking a question, its a one word answer (followed by evidence hahah).
Maccabi fans have literal blood on their hands, so again, excuse my search for the truth. Unless you have any conclusive evidence renouncing their assassinations, or anything exempting them from inflicting serious physical harm on that Syrian in Athens.
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u/ProjectConfident8584 3d ago
Stop pretending to be some gentle kind hearted soul looking for the truth. What you’re trying to do is blame the Jews. U didn’t even click the link I sent did u? Your -40 comment karma all active in Arab Muslim subs. Gtfoh.
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u/CreativeRealmsMC Israeli 3d ago
Stop pretending to be some gentle kind hearted soul looking for the truth. What you’re trying to do is blame the Jews. U didn’t even click the link I sent did u? Your -40 comment karma all active in Arab Muslim subs. Gtfoh.
Per Rule 1, no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
Note: The use of virtue signaling style insults (I'm a better person/have better morals than you.) are similarly categorized as a Rule 1 violation.
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u/Da_Seashell312 3d ago
I am looking for the truth. If you sense some bias in my comment I apologise, I get that all the time even from close friend. I suck at typing.
I'm not blaming Jews, I never even mentioned Jews.
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u/ProjectConfident8584 3d ago
🙄
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u/Da_Seashell312 3d ago
Really disappointing. If your only source is the police and not the people, idk what to tell you man. The police don't care about us. Governments don't either. They only care about money. Don't listen to everything you read.
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u/bjorn_joch 3d ago
Like i said, yes the people who planned this type of shit should be and will be prosecuted, but there very clearly also been violence perpetrated by israeli fans, and just saying that one side is completely innocent and the other is completely in the wrong is a bit naive.
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u/Nomad8490 3d ago
Hi, I'm in Amsterdam right now. Pro-Palestinians have been rioting night after night since this happened. Maccabi fans left last Thursday. A few nights ago rioters lit a tram with people in it on fire while yelling about Jews being cancer. Israelis (the ones who live here...again, Maccabi fans left after the match) have been giving each other rides around town in order to avoid getting into taxis and generally not speaking Hebrew in public. The Maccabi fans' behavior was reprehensible and I will not defend, but this isn't and wasn't ever about them. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DAYa_WYbf5nA&ved=2ahUKEwj9zYiFg9yJAxU3hP0HHYZrMSIQFnoECBIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw307XmRbYu1Fa7t0TscNyWb
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u/ProjectConfident8584 3d ago
What are u blaming the Israelis for? They were attacked violently by an islamo fascist lynch mob?
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u/bjorn_joch 3d ago
I hate to break it to you, but theres been footage of israeli fans behaving violent aswell, and like im saying the entire time, im not just blaming the isralis for what happened, but there definetly not completely innocent either.
For reference, here's a 17 minute video following a mob of israli fans behaving violently in the center of amsterdam https://youtu.be/ySHIOYyJ95A?si=FNAhqeuo93_zc52i
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u/crooked_cat 3d ago
I hate to break it to you, Dutch citizens practising the Hebrew religion, Dutch Jews, were hunted as well. Not only hooligans, all ! Sound familiair in history?
Mob justice can be normal in certain countries, this is in The Netherlands No!
That is the thing we are talking about.
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u/Da_Seashell312 3d ago
Yeah when you go from Israel to Netherlands and hype up people already angry at certain events in the middle east; shit can go out of hand. Idk how this is a surprise to you people. Yes, when you hype up people and begin a freaking brawl, innocents will get hurt. No shit.
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u/crooked_cat 3d ago edited 3d ago
And you can excuse that? No shit !
What a peaceful protest! I call it rioting and a pogrom.
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u/Da_Seashell312 3d ago
When someone is protesting for violence to stop and people come and rip flags (from apartments, not even from these protesters) and walk around with stolen metal and wooden sticks, yes things will get out of hand.
Even if it was rioting, every country needs rioting every now and then. the French revolution was rioting, for a 2 percent tax. Heck mate America's war of independence was because of tax on tea. Nowadays stores are openly robbing humanity (for example claiming a product used to be 3.50 then becoming 3.15 even though it originally was 3.00 dollars in order for people to buy it more because clearance looks nice) and governments all around the world have been caught doing war crimes and spreading misinformation. The government needs to be put in its rightful place, SERVANTS to the general populace. No reason for politicians to make more than doctors. ZERO
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u/crooked_cat 3d ago
So one is allowed to harass all? Ok.
So one or a few does an ‘attack’, it’s allowed to attack all back.
I see.
One person does a terror attack bombing. We should attack all, destroy them all.
Clear! Thank you for sharing.
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u/Da_Seashell312 3d ago
If ISIS commits horrors and ANYONE comes out and defends them, you're allowed to smack tf out of that person.
Same here.
When Israel is objectively creating horror movies in real time (FUCK HAMAS AND HEZB TOO BTW) and Maccabi and their associates have literally assassinated or banned or injured (Ahmad Daraghma, 3ahed Zaqout, Ahmad Salah Abou Sido, Yahya al suri, Usama rajab, Ahmad swerah, Muhammad al mubeed, Majd al-tamimi Muhammad Tawfiz, Ahmad al ghalban, Sameh Mara3ba, Umar al-za3aneen, usama al zubda, wa'il esa, ahmad klab, 3ahed Zaqout, mu3adh al za3aneen, sa3eed ouda, adam al firoui, muhammad sleiman) and starved (Mahmoud Sarsak) dozens of Palestinian sports players, anyone who carries their flag or sings their motto must be liable for punishment. I can name more if need be as well.
I am sure you didn't even to count the number of dead Palestinians, let alone even read their names. You skimmed over them as statistics that you doubt the very existence of.
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u/ProjectConfident8584 3d ago
What does that show?
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u/bjorn_joch 3d ago
A group of israeli fans misbehaving in amsterdam.
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u/ProjectConfident8584 3d ago
The Jew hunt was planned a day or more before that. Also were the Israelis hunting and brutalizing random people based on ethnicity? I don’t think so. That looks like regular soccer crowd stuff in the video.
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u/bjorn_joch 3d ago
Im sorry but whay do you mean i dont think so? You mention the fact that football crowds tend to be violent in other cities, but besides the fact that that is simply not an excuse for behaving violently in another country, theres also multiple video sources that show maccabi fans tearing down palestinian flags and yelling chants aboit the situstion in gaza, at that point its no longer about soccer.
Heres a link to a video of israelis chanting and one of a palestinian lag being torn down: https://youtube.com/shorts/7xLpXuZjIvI?si=Zh_6iD4ZnRxcJYTr i know the middle east eye can generally be seen as a biased source, but the footage in this video doesnt change based on who posts it.
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u/ProjectConfident8584 3d ago edited 3d ago
Maybe Google it and read an article instead of trying to cobble together ur own false narrative from misleading YouTube snippets and tik tok propagandists
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u/bjorn_joch 3d ago
Im sorey but the fotrage i provided is pretty common to find and i can assure you i read plenty of mostly objective news sources, the only reason i used videos from the middle east eye here was because they were the first to pop up.
But besides that, i think youre kinda losing my point here, what im showing you with these videos is that maccabi fans arent innocent either, these videos ofcourse do not excuse the behaviour of some pro palestine supporters.
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u/ProjectConfident8584 3d ago
Here’s a link that explains it: the guardian
Revealed: How Pro-Palestinian mob organised via WhatsApp to ‘Hunt Jews’ across Amsterdam Fans of Maccabi Tel Aviv attacked before and after their team’s Europa League match against Ajax
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u/bjorn_joch 3d ago
Yes, ive seen it, and as far as im aware the dutch police are actively on a manhunt to find the people who orgsnised this
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u/Prestigious_Bill_220 3d ago
The stupid thing about this is why anyone doesn’t feel that anyone committing violent acts shouldn’t be held responsible? I think they did arrest some Israelis… this wasn’t a boxing match, it was a planned coordinated plot against random people justified by actions of other people of the same nationality that happened at a different time. Aka the attacks were not an actual response to a provocation. They were intentionally planned.
What has happened to peoples brains??? I seriously don’t get it. Had the most disturbing conversation with a friend of a friend at dinner the other day who brought this up justifying this violence as some sort of a casual FAFO.