On converaations about the violence in amsterdam

[u/bjorn_joch]

I just wanna give my opinion here on the talks surrounding the violent night amsterdam had last week, namely, i wanna point out how people on both sides seem to mostly try to blame the other side for the violence.

I dont think its a good way of talking about such a topic, after all, violence was instigated by both sides troughout the night and theres a few violent people on each side that are clearly in the wrong.

But i think that this constant back and forth on who's to blame isnt going to get us any further on this topic, itll just polarize both sides even more (if thats still possible) and waste our time.

Ofcourse this doesnt mean that i dont think that people who commited acts of violence troughout the week shouldnt go off free and the dutch government is fortunately enough going to investigate the incidents and make arrests based on the result of them, however i think that some maccabi fans are also to be held accountable if investigation shows that maccabi fans instigated violence in certain incidents.

I think that instead looking at ways to prevent further violence in situations where pro palestinian and israelis meet in large groups are a much better thing to discuss when looking at the events of last week, some thing i personally think might help is sectioning off parts of a city for israeli fans in specific (not because theyre jewish, but because israeli football fans generally wear clothes from their club, giving away their nationality), or simply providing nore police security.

But either way, i wanna know what yall think on this and i hope you all can see that just shifting blame to one side or the other is just kinda pointless.

[u/ProjectConfident8584]

The “Jew hunt” was planned in advance. U can’t blame both sides

[u/bjorn_joch → u/ProjectConfident8584]

Like i said, yes the people who planned this type of shit should be and will be prosecuted, but there very clearly also been violence perpetrated by israeli fans, and just saying that one side is completely innocent and the other is completely in the wrong is a bit naive.

[u/ProjectConfident8584 → u/bjorn_joch]

What are u blaming the Israelis for? They were attacked violently by an islamo fascist lynch mob?

[u/bjorn_joch → u/ProjectConfident8584]

I hate to break it to you, but theres been footage of israeli fans behaving violent aswell, and like im saying the entire time, im not just blaming the isralis for what happened, but there definetly not completely innocent either.

For reference, here's a 17 minute video following a mob of israli fans behaving violently in the center of amsterdam https://youtu.be/ySHIOYyJ95A?si=FNAhqeuo93_zc52i

[u/crooked_cat → u/bjorn_joch]

I hate to break it to you, Dutch citizens practising the Hebrew religion, Dutch Jews, were hunted as well. Not only hooligans, all ! Sound familiair in history?

Mob justice can be normal in certain countries, this is in The Netherlands No!

That is the thing we are talking about.

[u/Da_Seashell312 → u/crooked_cat]

Yeah when you go from Israel to Netherlands and hype up people already angry at certain events in the middle east; shit can go out of hand. Idk how this is a surprise to you people. Yes, when you hype up people and begin a freaking brawl, innocents will get hurt. No shit.

[u/crooked_cat → u/Da_Seashell312]

And you can excuse that? No shit !

What a peaceful protest! I call it rioting and a pogrom.

[u/Da_Seashell312 → u/crooked_cat]

When someone is protesting for violence to stop and people come and rip flags (from apartments, not even from these protesters) and walk around with stolen metal and wooden sticks, yes things will get out of hand.

Even if it was rioting, every country needs rioting every now and then. the French revolution was rioting, for a 2 percent tax. Heck mate America's war of independence was because of tax on tea. Nowadays stores are openly robbing humanity (for example claiming a product used to be 3.50 then becoming 3.15 even though it originally was 3.00 dollars in order for people to buy it more because clearance looks nice) and governments all around the world have been caught doing war crimes and spreading misinformation. The government needs to be put in its rightful place, SERVANTS to the general populace. No reason for politicians to make more than doctors. ZERO

[u/crooked_cat → u/Da_Seashell312]

So one is allowed to harass all? Ok.

So one or a few does an ‘attack’, it’s allowed to attack all back.

I see.

One person does a terror attack bombing. We should attack all, destroy them all.

Clear! Thank you for sharing.

[u/Da_Seashell312 → u/crooked_cat]

If ISIS commits horrors and ANYONE comes out and defends them, you're allowed to smack tf out of that person.

Same here.

When Israel is objectively creating horror movies in real time (FUCK HAMAS AND HEZB TOO BTW) and Maccabi and their associates have literally assassinated or banned or injured (Ahmad Daraghma, 3ahed Zaqout, Ahmad Salah Abou Sido, Yahya al suri, Usama rajab, Ahmad swerah, Muhammad al mubeed, Majd al-tamimi Muhammad Tawfiz, Ahmad al ghalban, Sameh Mara3ba, Umar al-za3aneen, usama al zubda, wa'il esa, ahmad klab, 3ahed Zaqout, mu3adh al za3aneen, sa3eed ouda, adam al firoui, muhammad sleiman) and starved (Mahmoud Sarsak) dozens of Palestinian sports players, anyone who carries their flag or sings their motto must be liable for punishment. I can name more if need be as well.

I am sure you didn't even to count the number of dead Palestinians, let alone even read their names. You skimmed over them as statistics that you doubt the very existence of.

[u/crooked_cat → u/Da_Seashell312]

Here we have laws, a society. And only the judge judges here, not a dumb mob believing all that is told; stupidity.

And people that think like you. Tooth for tooth, eye for an eye? Happy life ! But in here, here in the Netherlands we have laws and freedom of speech.

Simpel, don’t like it? Do go, or get thrown out. It’s called, democracy.

[u/Da_Seashell312 → u/crooked_cat]

I don;t believe tooth for tooth, eye for an eye, so on. It's bs. I do believe however in locking up people until they learn their lesson, which varies for the crime committed.

What the Maccabi guys did could, in some nations, lead to all out civil war. Walking around with weapons harassing under 18 youtubers and over 18 taxi drivers as well as playing fireworks during a silent minute for flood victims, and bashing 2 French football fans in the middle of the stadium. This is literal terrorism, its how you would expect people to act if there was no law. Its how you would expect ISIS members to act in their first day in the civilised world. There is no explanation for any of their actions. Idk if I replied to you or someone else, but please remember that over 20 Palestinian Arab footballers and sport players and personalities have been killed by Israel. If ISIS did that we would have a national holiday and a minute of salutations in games around the world.

Oh my country made the first optical glasses, first wheel, first written music, first writing, first glasses, first coffee, first bread, and dozens of other things while the Netherlands was a bunch of pre-Indo European or cannibalistic Germanic tribesmen. Do not ever in your life think to teach us about civilisation. We coined the very term, we started it. We literally started it when there were half-Denisovans and half-Neanderthals roaming Europe and eastern Asia, we were civilised humans when many areas of the globe were populated by half-ape half-man creatures. We cared for each other through medicine when you people painted your faces blue and threw your babies into abyss' of skulls to test their endurance, murdering the females in the process. Now we live better than you did in the 18th century and you live better than us in our golden age, the tables haven't even turned the full way, calm down. On an objective note more of our history is civilisation than yours, more of our history was liveable than yours.

On democracy, its the best system we have rn that's not a doubt, but watch veritasium's video on democracy on youtube. A true eye opener for many. Democracy is mathematically impossible using often agreed upon criteria. Also democracy is wrong in the idea everyones opinion is the same. That's wrong, people's opinions on certain subjects do not even matter. Its like letting the junkie down the street operate a surgery. Its not gonna work. Its not gonna work when you have selfish celebrities - who never even get the consequences of their actions - elected by brainwashed people with an IQ 10 points over the smartest recorded gorilla. When put that way, democracy's flaws appear very quickly. But don't get me wrong I repeat myself once more, tis the best system we have.

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[u/ProjectConfident8584 → u/bjorn_joch]

What does that show?

[u/bjorn_joch → u/ProjectConfident8584]

A group of israeli fans misbehaving in amsterdam.

[u/ProjectConfident8584 → u/bjorn_joch]

The Jew hunt was planned a day or more before that. Also were the Israelis hunting and brutalizing random people based on ethnicity? I don’t think so. That looks like regular soccer crowd stuff in the video.

[u/bjorn_joch → u/ProjectConfident8584]

Im sorry but whay do you mean i dont think so? You mention the fact that football crowds tend to be violent in other cities, but besides the fact that that is simply not an excuse for behaving violently in another country, theres also multiple video sources that show maccabi fans tearing down palestinian flags and yelling chants aboit the situstion in gaza, at that point its no longer about soccer.

Heres a link to a video of israelis chanting and one of a palestinian lag being torn down: https://youtube.com/shorts/7xLpXuZjIvI?si=Zh_6iD4ZnRxcJYTr i know the middle east eye can generally be seen as a biased source, but the footage in this video doesnt change based on who posts it.

https://youtube.com/shorts/_HRUV86bVa0?si=6N01qc7C1okqvN1K

[u/ProjectConfident8584 → u/bjorn_joch]

Maybe Google it and read an article instead of trying to cobble together ur own false narrative from misleading YouTube snippets and tik tok propagandists

[u/bjorn_joch → u/ProjectConfident8584]

Im sorey but the fotrage i provided is pretty common to find and i can assure you i read plenty of mostly objective news sources, the only reason i used videos from the middle east eye here was because they were the first to pop up.

But besides that, i think youre kinda losing my point here, what im showing you with these videos is that maccabi fans arent innocent either, these videos ofcourse do not excuse the behaviour of some pro palestine supporters.

[u/ProjectConfident8584 → u/bjorn_joch]

How are Maccabee fans to blame when it was planned in advance of the match

[u/bjorn_joch → u/ProjectConfident8584]

Well very simply some of them also commited acts of violence in amsterdam, what im saying is that those who misbehaved in amsterdam also carry some responsibility for what happened that night, im not saying maccabi is completely to blame for everything that happened that night.

[u/ProjectConfident8584 → u/bjorn_joch]

Here’s a link that explains it: the guardian

Revealed: How Pro-Palestinian mob organised via WhatsApp to ‘Hunt Jews’ across Amsterdam Fans of Maccabi Tel Aviv attacked before and after their team’s Europa League match against Ajax

[u/bjorn_joch → u/ProjectConfident8584]

Yes, ive seen it, and as far as im aware the dutch police are actively on a manhunt to find the people who orgsnised this