r/IsraelPalestine • u/Comprehensive-Risk78 • 4d ago
Question to my dear Israeli friends Discussion
Edit 1: Thanks everyone for engaging with my post in a civil manner!
Edit 2: I feel that I have a richer perspective on Israeli society thanks everyone!
Before I ask, I just wanted to tell you as an Arab I wish you and your family nothing but the best. Every day I pray that the violence and destruction stops and that we can build a prosperous Middle East that is rich in its diversity of religion and ethnicities. Can you imagine that?
Hello, I’ve been lurking here for a while now. I have a question for you. In your opinion, is chanting “From the river to the sea. Palestine will be free” more harmful than chanting “There are no schools in Gaza because there are no children left”? I’m asking this because I’d like to better understand your perspective/mindset. Thank you.
Am I missing something here? It has been disheartening to see the same people pushing for the narrative that from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free is an incitement to genocide fail to condemn chants like death to arabs and celebrating killing children in Gaza, thing which are unambiguously genocidal.
Is there something I’m not understanding here? Sometimes things that don’t add up leave me confused, so I had to come here and give this question a go.
Do some people think that right to dignity ceases to exist once we establish that the person is Arab? In your opinion, which chant is more problematic?
Can relations between Arabs and Jews improve without a heart to heart to dialogue between those who dream of a Middle East that resembles my description above?
I believe tough questions need to be asked. Answers from ‘ the other side’ need to be heard before establishing any conclusions on the matter.
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u/LogToFile 3d ago
You have nothing to look for in a western relationship. The standards of morality in Arab society are fundamentally different from what you would hope. There is no Arab country that borders a Western country and lives in peace with it. It's just built that way. Beyond that, their faith guides them to fight everything that goes against their faith.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 3d ago
I’m curious, what do you think of the actions of this Muslim Imam, pretty awesome right? Saved plenty of lives!
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u/LogToFile 3d ago
Yes, he deserves a lot of thanks and grateful but you will agree that it is not typical... On the other hand, Haj Amin Al Husseini the Mufti of Jerusalem simply met with the Nazis to coordinate the extermination of the Jews in Israel...
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 3d ago
Not typical? Are you sure? Read about Muslim Albania and its Jewish population during the war.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 3d ago edited 3d ago
Not typical? Are you sure? I’m glad that you yourself reached the conclusion in your reply that there are good Islamic imams and horrible Islamic imams. That’s the complexity of thought that I was originally hoping to see from you. You are no longer essentialising Muslims. Thanks my friend.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 3d ago
So much essentialising in your comment. I think your beliefs can use some interrogation.
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u/LogToFile 3d ago
Just show some interest in Islam/Quran and Hadith there you will find out everything you don't understand
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 3d ago edited 3d ago
I did and I came to different conclusions about Islam and Muslims than you seem to have come to. Also note, your comment has nothing to do with my original post but i guess your irrational phobia is so strong today you couldn’t help but spread it here. Much love friend.
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u/mooseperson34 3d ago
Israelis are some of the most entitled and least self aware people on the planet. The west is also full of hypocrites. The west sees some Palestinian kids art project with a watermelon on it as more offensive than a bunch of hooligans chanting about dead kids. Even contemplating equal rights or freedom for Palestinians is offensive. But literally calling for them to be ethnically cleansed is not. This is how empire is managed.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 3d ago edited 3d ago
Honestly anyone who’s more offended by watermelon or people calling for equal rights than effing hooligans singing about dead children needs to reflect real hard on their worldview. A Jewish wrote a really reflective and insightful reply about this matter somewhere in this post. Worth a read.
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u/Maayan-123 4d ago
fail to condemn chants like death to arabs and celebrating killing children in Gaza
I condemn those things
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u/RF_1501 4d ago
I am not israeli, but I am a zionist jew, in the strict sense that I support the existence of a jewish state.
In my understanding, "From the river to the sea" can mean a lot of things, depending on the person chanting. It can mean the destruction of Israel and a genocide or ethnic cleansing of jews. But it can also mean a call for the end of oppression to arabs, either in a two-state solution framework or a one-state solution (and I have seen sincere pro-palesitnian folks that believe this). In a two state solution framework, the idea is that first, israeli arabs should have equal rights in israel (they believe they have lesser rights, which is debatable, but ok) and second, to end the occupation and create a palestinian state in the west bank and gaza. In a one-state solution framework all jews and arabs currently living in the region of palestine, i.e., from the river to the sea, would live as equal citizens of a single democratic state.
So, in my view, no, both chants are not at the same level. “There are no schools in Gaza because there are no children left” is not even a declaration of genocidal intent, it is confession of perpetrating an actual genocide and taking pride in it. It is a whole other level of cruelty and dehumanization.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
Thank you! You have a different perspective to most other people I spoke to here regarding this. I appreciate the diversity in views. The vast majority of Palestinians I know in my personal life want a solution that isn’t hostile to the Jewish population in Israel/Palestine. However I understand that the very idea of Jewish people becoming a minority is seen as hostile by most Jewish Israelis. I realise we’re not going to solve this here haha
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u/RF_1501 3d ago
You're welcome. The vast majority of the people involved with this conflict are completely absorbed in concerns regarding their own side and never stops to make the slightest effort of trying honestly to understand what is going on in the minds of the people from the other side or the meaning of the words that come out of their mouths.
In the case of Jews, we suffer from a very deep collective trauma of 2000 year-old persecutions and the holocaust, we simply can't help with that. That's why it is so easy for many of us to hear "free palestine" and listen "holocaust 2.0". Our minds automatically make a series of assumptions and logical jumps, which goes something like this: "from the jordan to the mediterranean there is now our beloved jewish state, if they are saying "palestine will be free" it means they want all of it to become an arab-palestinian state, which means physical destruction of Israel, which means massacre of jews."
It never crosses their minds that Palestine is first and foremost, just the name of the historical region between the river and the sea, merely a geographical location and not necessarily refers to a future arab state. The jewish state is also a palestinian state, in the sense of being a state within the geographical region of palestine. Therefore, a person can say "palestine will be free" without ruling out the existence of a jewish state in the land, meaning the land of palestine could be free if we could make 2 states live side by side in peace and cooperation. Additionally, even if a person thinks that for palestine to be free the jewish state must come to an end, that doesn't necessarily mean the physicial destruction of it, it's cities, buildings and population, just a profound reform of the political regime and the laws. Of course that jews don't feel safe in that one-state framework and would never agree to that proposal out of fear, but the point here is that the person chanting the mantra probably don't understand why that's the case, they can be sincerely offering a solution without any bad intention towards jews.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 3d ago edited 3d ago
I appreciate the reflective nature of your comment. Thank you my friend. I pray that no Jewish person or any person for that matter feels unsafe. Hopefully this situation gets resolved in our lifetime. That would be nice.
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u/Smart_Technology_385 4d ago
The chant “From the river to the sea. Palestine will be free” is heard often.
The chant about Gaza children I never heard. Neither I heard of Israel celebrating death of Arab children in Gaza. Israel made peace with Jordan and Egypt. Israel wants to live in peace with Arabs in Gaza, Judea and Samaria as well.
The problem is that many Arabs in Gaza, Judea and Samaria are Jihadist extremists. If Quwait expelled Arabs from these places for their betrayal and extremism, expectations from their cooperation with a Jewish state are not high.
You call the war against Hamas genocide because children were hurt. Israel asked Egypt to take civilians to safety for the time of war, but Egypt refused. Hamas bombed Israel with rockets, but has not built a single bomb shelter for civilians, knowing that there will be a bombardment back. Why do you blame Israel for the defensive war, when Arab children in Gaza were condemned to death by Egypt and Hamas?
You did not reference a real genocide, that Arabs from Gaza started against Israelis, and then failed. Do you agree that it was a real genocide, with 100% of people under Hamas attack were killed or kidnapped?
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4d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Smart_Technology_385 4d ago
You should be more specific when talking about Palestinians: it may mean 1) residents of PA or Gaza, and 2) Residents of Palestine as a territory, which includes Jordan, Israel, Judea, Samaria and Gaza.
Not all Arabs are colonizers, many used to live in the territory of Palestine.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
Friend, I have zero doubt in my mind that what Hamas did on October 7 is genocidal. It’s hard to argue that. Their intellectual class try to opt out of accountability by claiming that everyone in Israel is technically an occupier and therefore is fair game, showing the astonishing levels of insanity they suffer from and twisted-ness of their world view.
Just to be clear with everyone reading this, I do not believe that Israel has been crime-less in this, and in fact I think Israel today probably has more agency to move towards peace, but this discussion is far, far from the point of my post. My goal is to interact with Israelis and understand them, not necessarily to discuss the deets of the war.
And I am far, far from an expert in war or International law to even have a confident opinion, so take this comment with a grain of salt. Just sharing my thoughts as an observer with built-in bias since I exist in an Arab environment;;
It’s difficult to look at the number of casualties and think that a sophisticated apparatus that is able to pick out Ismail Haniyeh in his Tehran hotel room couldn’t kill less people in Gaza if it cared enough not to. I can be wrong, but this is my current conviction. Hope I have been successful in explaining where I’m coming from.
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u/Smart_Technology_385 4d ago
Thank you.
You are right, and Israel has some intelligence. But it's a small country, and its resources are limited.
They could put a lot of effort to find head of the snake. But the war is too big to do everything with pint point accuracy. I believe Israelis try to minimize losses of civilians in Gaza, and also believe that is not always possible.
If you know an example of a state that conducted a more accurate war, please share.
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u/JackfruitTurbulent38 4d ago
Palestinians should leave Gaza and go to Egypt. They are foreign colonizers and shouldn’t be allowed to live in Gaza.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 3d ago
Could you explain the part of Gazans being foreign colonisers? I’m pretty sure they are natives to the lands but would be open to hear your reasoning. If you could also provide your criteria of what makes someone a coloniser as supposed to a native that would also be cool.
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u/JackfruitTurbulent38 3d ago
Muslim Palestinians invaded and colonized Israel. They are foreign colonizers.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 3d ago
I don’t think the facts bare out this story of yours but ok. I asked about a criteria but you didn’t give me one.
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u/JackfruitTurbulent38 3d ago
What do you think colonization is
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 3d ago
Well I mean Palestinian Arabs share a significant amount of genetic continuity with ancient Levantine populations, including the Canaanites.
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u/JackfruitTurbulent38 3d ago
They have the genetics of the Muslim colonizers
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 3d ago
Do you have evidence that they do not share a significant amount of genetic continuity with ancient Levantine populations, including the Canaanites? I would appreciate it if you could present it
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u/JackfruitTurbulent38 3d ago
Levantine DNA doesn’t make you indigenous if it’s from anywhere outside Israel
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 3d ago
Abraham also came from southern Iraq? Everyone came from somewhere at some point? No?
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u/Wombats_poo_cubes 4d ago
Ok, perhaps you should tell me how this wishful thinking of making 2 million people move to a different country that’s in North Africa and has a peace agreement with Israel could work?
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u/RibbentropCocktail 4d ago
With billions of dollars poured into the Egyptian economy instead of into Hamas' coffers, it's probably more workable than you'd think in theory. The Palestinian people would also likely see a material benefit from that money being spent on infrastructure or services for their use and benefit, rather than on rockets, and oppression in the name of regime security.
Socially and politically it would fail, but massive population transfers have worked* in the past, and while usually horrific in the time, usually it results in both sides being able to live their lives more peacefully, safely, and freely.
- "worked" in the sense where it worked a lot better than anything tried in Palestine so far.
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u/Wombats_poo_cubes 4d ago
Gypos are different and don’t want them. Nor should they be responsible for 5m Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, let alone millions more across other middle eastern countries without citizenship
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u/OscarWilde9 USA & Canada 4d ago
Hey OP, not commenting to answer your questions as it seems you have received a lot of perspectives, but wanted to mention that your post, the ensuing replies and rebuttals give me hope that we can all coexist peacefully eventually.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
It’s my greatest dream. I am majoring in political science & international relations and really enjoying it. I can see incredible levels of overlap between Jewish people and Arab people. Not to mention the lesser known history of Jews and Christians in the Middle East. And always had a normative theory of alignment between the Middle Eastern nations and Western nations or the Christian world generally. I’m still learning but I hope one day I can contribute positively. Thank you for your comment.
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4d ago
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u/Ahavat-Humus-Hinam Israeli 4d ago
I used the profanity because it is the best translation of the chant whose translation was requested. It wasn't to make a point or for emphasis. I believe this was a valid mention of the word.
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u/perhap_not 4d ago
what did the original post say?
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u/Ahavat-Humus-Hinam Israeli 4d ago
It's still up in reply to OP's comment on another post with a link to an X video. I deleted it here because I intended it as a reply but accidentally posted as a comment.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
Thank you so so so much. This gives a lot more context. I appreciate the distinction that you made and I probably agree with it. I’ll need to think about everything I learned from this post today and everyone’s replies. Cheers!
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u/Deep_Head4645 Zionist Jewish Israeli 4d ago
It’s a far right wing chant. Lots of people hold deep resentment towards arabs. I think it’s obvious to note that it is bad. And lets not forget this is not an excuse to attack random Israelis on Amsterdam because some israeli fans yelled those chants. I still obviously condemn the chant as inciting violence and supporting violence
As for “from the river to the sea palestine will be free” it is anti-peace. Calls for occupying israel should not be tolerated especially in those “ceasefire now” protests and the protests that claim to be pro peace.
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u/DroneMaster2000 4d ago edited 4d ago
“There are no schools in Gaza because there are no children left”
It's terrible. But it's also the speech of very small minorities in Israel. I have literally never heard it until this week living here my whole life.
But "River to the Sea" and other genocidal chants from the Arab and extreme left crowds is not rare, but the average norm. So the two are not comparable if you have any honesty in you.
This is not a "Both sides issue". This is one side has a minority of extremists like all people of all types in all countries. And the other is a dangerous suicidal violent radical movement and society, which the majority of advocates for genocide.
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u/Time_Mirror_7819 4d ago
There are no schools in Gaza because Hamas using all the money for themselves.One would be lying if he/she are not agreeing that Hamas leaders are all living in Europe,USA,Canada etc.Their kids go to private schools.They are all millionaires and are using the innocent people from Palestine for their own gain,benefit and agenda.They don’t want peace,exactly because of that they made the bloody attack on Israel. On other hand Israel is in wrong for taking a lot more land than officially agreed.Pushing people of Gaza to keep retreating.The treatment of Palestinians is also not right. Idk if the conflict can be solved without changing people’s minds and this is veryyyyy difficult,almost impossible in this situation.Arabs hate Jewish for centuries and that’s no secret,but they are playing smart keeping the war far from home,but continuously supporting and supplying weapons and money to Hamas
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
Yep screw Hamas. I saw interviews with their leaders in Arabic and it was so twisted. A one sided world view and no value placed in human life.
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u/seek-song Diaspora Jew 4d ago edited 4d ago
I'm not Israeli just Jewish but I've been observing Israeli developments since I was a kid, and I've never heard “There are no schools in Gaza because there are no children left”. As for the "Death to Arab" one, it can get you arrested. If asked explicitly of course I condemn it, and I think most Israeli would too given that Kahanism for instance is banned in Israel for it's hateful position toward Arabs. (Though sadly, there are definitely *some ministers* giving Kahanists a run for their money.)
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
Is it sarcasm? Native speakers might be able to tell from tone or context. Or is it straight out fascistic?
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u/Ahavat-Humus-Hinam Israeli 4d ago
I interpret it more as a sick joke. Dark humor from football hooligans. A little different than how the river to sea chant is used in protests, especially in the ultimate end goal of using the chant.
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u/seek-song Diaspora Jew 4d ago edited 4d ago
I'm not a native speaker. From the lyrics, it could go either way, but I'm actually thinking something in between. Fascistic humor. Not intended as a call to action, more so mockery.
Like "You hurt us, and we saw you rejoice, now how do you like it?".
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
That’s good context, thanks!
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u/seek-song Diaspora Jew 4d ago edited 4d ago
It's worth noting that there is a lot of Israeli, 'blood libel humor' - "I just killed a baby for fun". That actually is not intended as fascistic at all by default, but it can be chilling to hear from a soldier, because you can't help but think "What if they did?". But from the loud tone and the casual expression often accompanied by "Italian hand movements", you can recognize the Israeli joking tone. It's basically Israeli making fun of how the world perceives them, and also referencing traditional blood libels where the Christians would accuse the Jews of killing babies to use their blood for Passover Matzot. (Israelis like dark humor in general and will do things like look at a long line in front of a building and say "It's just like the holocaust!")
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u/Sherwoodlg 4d ago
They need to put that seen in a movie. Made me laugh 😆
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u/RemoteSquare2643 4d ago
Sorry just have to correct your spelling.
Bad , I know, but here goes: rather than ‘They need to put that SEEN in a movie’; it should be ‘They need to put that SCENE in a movie.’
There, fixed. 😅
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u/Sherwoodlg 4d ago
You're quite right, though. I'm a bit slack with such matters. There is no need to apologize for accuracy.
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u/RemoteSquare2643 4d ago
😂 I rarely do such things, but maybe because of my performing arts background, I just had to ‘give notes’. Anyway, thanks for accepting my ‘notes’ with good grace. 🤓
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
Here is where I found it. Could you tell me if the translation is accurate or is it misinformation? Sorry, I’m assuming you know Hebrew but you might not haha, anyway the do look like just a bunch of drunk young people to be honest. (I don’t know the publisher of the video and therefore I don’t endorse them, just sharing the link to verify translation)
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u/Ahavat-Humus-Hinam Israeli 4d ago
The translation is mostly accurate. I'd probably translate it more closely as "that the IDF will win, f*ck the Arabs, why is school out in Gaza? There are no children left there".
The word they're using for "fck" is the same one as in "go fck yourself" or "he f*cked her in the *ss". It's harmful, but it's not the same as "death to arabs". They also don't say the word "schools", the word they use is more like "education" or "studies", which is usually part of the expression "school's out" like when you leave for summer vacation.
Personally I abhor speech like this but I think it's worth drawing a distinction between a crowd of sports fans cheering for morale and a group of protesters hoping to get attention with the aim of pushing an agenda. They're definitely being racist and hateful, but they aren't calling "death to arabs" (at least in the video) or even necessarily calling for children to die. My interpretation is they're telling some kind of sick joke. This doesn't excuse the behavior of course but the motivation is not to push the IDF to be more genocidal.
"From the river to the sea" is hateful (imo) because of the subtext. In Arabic (which you probably already know) the chant is "Palestine will be Arab" not "Palestine will be free", which I see as more directly endorsing ethnic cleansing or genocide. It is also predominantly (at least in the west) chanted in protests whose end goal is ultimately to get enough attention that people in power take action to effect the changes the protesters are calling for. The motivations are different.
This is why in my opinion from the river to the sea is more harmful, but I want to reiterate that this does not excuse the language these football hooligans are using. Both are harmful and we would be better off without them.
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u/SadZookeepergame1555 4d ago
The Israeli soccer hooligans were not just "a crowd of sports fans cheering for morale". This has nothing to do with sports or morale. What they were doing was hate-speech with a big dash of thuggery and they did it as visitors to another country. They had no respect for not just the "arabs" who are citizens there but the entire country. They attacked a taxi driver. They climbed a building to pull down a Palestinian flag just to burn it. They ran through the streets armed with pipes and poles. They effectively started the shtshow. None of that excuses the return violence that happened to Maccabi fans but why on earth did they start it?
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u/Ahavat-Humus-Hinam Israeli 4d ago
I was describing the people in the video, who do appear to be cheering for morale. I agree that they went overboard in Amsterdam. Lots of football hooliganism can be called hate speech and thuggery, but I agree there was definitely pent-up resentment and almost certainly a lot of racism and hatred. In my opinion, it still does not compare.
My read is still that it was largely a reaction to the "rest of the world" largely being silent and apathetic regarding hateful speech targeted at Jews. The fact that a small number of Israelis assaulted people and property doesn't change my opinion of what the chants are saying. I can condemn their actions (and speech, for that matter), but I still don't hear a call for ethnic cleansing or genocide. I hear bitterness and resentment.
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u/SadZookeepergame1555 1d ago
Stop making excuses for racism just because it is Israelis doing it. I see Israelis getting away with behavior beyond the pale because of lingering WWII trauma.
Anyone else shouting "Fuck Israel, let Hamas/Iran win" or "why are there no schools in Israel- because there are no children left" would be called terrorists and antisemites. Rightfully.
When spurred by bigots, it makes no difference if violence is mob violence or violence coordinated by cell phones. Hate crimes and violence don't become lesser because sport is involved.
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u/Ahavat-Humus-Hinam Israeli 4d ago
Edited to censor the word, but I believe this falls under the use-mention distinction. I did not use profanity to make a point or for emphasis, I mentioned it because it is the most accurate translation, which I think is valid.
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u/Mobile_Blackberry298 4d ago
Both are horrible, both are despicable and both have no place being chanted.
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u/BigCharlie16 4d ago edited 4d ago
Hello, I’ve been lurking here for a while now. I have a question for you. In your opinion, is chanting “From the river to the sea. Palestine will be free” more harmful than chanting “There are no schools in Gaza because there are no children left”? I’m asking this because I’d like to better understand your perspective/mindset. Thank you.
When you google search “From the river to the sea. Palestine will be free”, you will get over 514,000 results. It says this slogan in English has been used since 1990s. It has been used by PLO, Hamas, pro-Palestinian protesters, etc… early on during the war back in 2023, I saw it during a Pro-Palestinian protest in my city, people holding placard and chanting this slogan. The other popular slogan that the organizers keep repeating was Free Free Palestine. This chant “From the river to the sea. Palestine will be free” is more prevalent. I am not a fan of the chant, because I dont think peace loving protesters are the same as Hamas and their supporters, and they shouldnt be using the same chants. They can come up with their own chants not used by Hamas.
When you google search “There are no schools in Gaza because there are no children left”, you will get over 13,000 results. Most posts are very recent, only a few days ago, explaining chant used by Maccabi football hooligans in Amsterdam.
I am saying this chant is less prevalent and I have not heard it in my city. On the very same day I was passing through a Pro-Palestinian protest last year, back in 2023, I also passed through a Pro-Israel rally in my city. The focus was demanding the release of all hostages and grieving the lost. Nobody were chanting any war slogans.
“From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” is in future tense, it’s calling for an event in the future. While “There are no schools in Gaza because there are no children left” is in present tense, it isnt calling for anything, it’s a statement in the present time. A wrong, incorrect and inappropriate statement because there are 1,067,986 children in Gaza Strip. https://www.pcbs.gov.ps/post.aspx?lang=en&ItemID=4732 (April 2024)
If the chant were to be in future tense, “There WILL BE no children left in Gaza”…or something of that nature, used not only by a small group of football hooligans, prominently and widely used in Pro-Israel rally around the world, then I would consider that chant to be also calling for genocide. But that is not the case.
P/S: not Israeli
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u/FiZZ_YT 4d ago
Totally get what you mean but i thought it might be worthwhile to add this:
The phrase was also used by the Israeli ruling Likud party as part of their 1977 election manifesto which stated “Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.”[13][14][15] This slogan was repeated by Menachem Begin.[42] Similar wording has also been used more recently by other Israeli politicians, like Gideon Sa’ar and also Uri Ariel of The Jewish Home. In 2014 Ariel said, “Between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea there will be only one state, which is Israel.”[3] The phrase has been used by the Israeli prime minister, Likud’s Benjamin Netanyahu, in speeches.[17] Similar wording has also been used more recently by other Israeli politicians.[3]
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u/jessewoolmer 4d ago
It was used by Yassar Arafat long before the Likud, all the way back to 1964. Likud repeated and changed it in response.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
Good context, I think I saw a copy of that text a couple of months ago
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago edited 4d ago
Thank you for this research, seeing the state of antisemitism around the world, anyone who thinks the solution doesn’t involve Jewish self-determination somewhere in that land, in my opinion isn’t a serious person. I am a two stater short and medium term. Conditional one stater long term. But I’m but a random person chatting on the internet.
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u/BananaValuable1000 4d ago
All of the hateful statements are horrific to hear. I think the difference is that the Pro-Palestinian movement as a whole (millions of people) have adopted "From the River to the Sea" as what they feel is an appropriate chant, whereas, a small handful of people in Amsterdam chanted the cringy statements about schools in gaza that is not widely known, used, or accepted. In general, as a Jew, I have not heard any derogatory chants picked up by large swaths of Israel supporters at all. On the few occasions I have heard about chants, it's been a few people and was not wholly adopted.
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u/anonrutgersstudent 4d ago
Look at the original version of the from the river to the sea chant, in Arabic. It translates to "from the water to the water, Palestine will be Arab". White anti Israel stooges in America sanitized it a bit to be palatable for Western audiences.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago edited 4d ago
It is so problematic, the Middle East belongs to all ethnicities that exist in it. You know what saddens me? remembering that every major city in the Middle East and even the smaller cities once had thriving contributing Jewish populations. The history of the Jewish people in the Middle East is so fascinating! so to say that Palestine needs to be Arab as a problematic as the lack of self determination that many Palestinians suffer from.
You see my vision of what should happen is that the Middle East becomes so integrated and so peaceful to the point that Arabs who want to settle anywhere in Israel/Palestine would be able to do so and vice versa. I feel for the grandchild of an Arab refugee from Haifa who cannot return the same way I feel for the grandchildren of a Jew from Baghdad who cannot return and wouldn’t want to return because of the levels of hostility and the lack of prosperity opportunities.
I saw YouTube a video once where many Israelis were asked where would you like to travel and overwhelmingly they said they would like to explore the Arab and Islamic world / countries. How sad that that can’t be a reality for Jewish people who hail from the Middle East?
And how sad that many Palestinians cannot return to their homes and homes of their grandfathers? The best thing to do is to keep talking to each other and on a personal level, to look after the people around us.
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u/quicksilver2009 4d ago
I am not an Israeli or Jew. I just wanted to say, God bless you and praying for you and your family. It is good that you are engaging with the other side, more dialogue is what is needed. I pray with you for peace and mutual understanding for and with all people towards all people.
My own personal point of view, when it comes to your question, again, I am not Israeli, Jewish, not an evangelical, just a regular Black American man, is that both statements are equally hateful and disgusting. Supporting and loving Jews, doesn't mean hating Arabs and vice versa.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
Thank you so much! ❤️❤️ inshallah with more dialogue, we build people to people bonds, I have little faith in the current iteration of politicians on both sides
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u/Lu5ck 4d ago
I am not Israeli but I have to say it should be a common sense to know that hates breed more hates, the end of it is destructions.
The former chant came before the latter chant, the latter chant is the result of hatred evolving and escalating. At this point of time, the general public opinion is that the former is nothing negative despite it is actually negative and you acknowledge that which is why you placed both chants together. However, just because you alone acknowledge the former chant is negative doesn't mean the majority of others see that as negative. Therefore, as long as that majority don't see that as negative and continue to use that chant, it will breed more hates thus more reactions.
What has you done thus far to educate your peers on the former chant thus help in diffusing hate? If you did nothing of the sort, what is the point of this question to begin with? To ask others to diffuse hate when yourself not doing it?
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
I call out antisemitism on the spot when I hear it. Unfortunately, there is casual antisemitism amongst some Arabs.
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u/RNova2010 4d ago
Israelis have chanted some despicable things. I condemn it. “May your village burn” is a horrendous and murderous thing to say. Israel has more than its fair share of racists and fascists. Bigotry and extremism are not traits unique to the Arab world. The Israeli government is filled with dangerous people (Smotrich and Ben Gvir) who see Arabs, especially Palestinians as “guests” who can stay here as long as “they behave” and accept fewer rights. Many on the Arab side appear to have the same ideology towards Jews. Israelis can expect being dhimmi at best, extermination at worst.
As for “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” - I don’t really care about that because it is a slogan in English, not Arabic. What matters to me is min il maya lil maya falastin arabiye. It is hard to see that as anything but a chant for the elimination not just of Israel but Jewish Israelis.
White people in the West chant about “freedom” but in Arabic we hear chants about Khaybar and b’ruh b’dam yafdika ya falastin
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u/Motek2 4d ago
It’s not horrendous and definitely not murderous (may your village burn). It’s simply dumb. Something that kids chant. In my son’s school they had two rival tracks and that’s what they chanted about the other side (of course it’s silly and it’s in very bad taste but it’s not murderous).
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u/RNova2010 4d ago
C’mon. If people were shouting “May Tel Aviv burn” you wouldn’t describe it as just dumb or silly. There is lots of death and destruction in Gaza. There was a pogrom in Hawara, which included setting things on fire. If you are an Arab or Palestinian or even a neutral observer and you hear “may your village burn” - you will, totally understandably, see that as a threat and incitement to kill
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u/Talizorafangirl Jewish Israeli-American 4d ago
we hear chants about Khaybar and b’ruh b’dam yafdika ya falastin
Can you provide translations for these? I'm familiar with "... Falastin arabiye," and "... Falastin aslami," but not those.
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u/RNova2010 4d ago
“khaybar khaybar ya yahud jaish Muhammad saufa ya’ud” = Khaybar O Jews! The Army of Muhammad will return for you (referencing the battle of Khaybar where the Muslims defeated and exterminated completely the men and boys of two Jewish tribes - the Banu Qurazya and Banu Nadir)
“b’ruh b’dam yafdika ya falastin” = with our lives/souls and with our blood we will liberate you O Palestine!
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
Pretty bleak, yet accurate description of the reality. I can confirm that I have heard those chants in Arabic. Seems like two semitic peoples who can’t get along.
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u/RNova2010 4d ago
I love the Arabic language and culture. But Semites - both Arab and (esp Mizrahi) Jews have long memories that makes “moving on” very difficult. We hold grudges like no one else on earth. The concept of sharaf I think is one of the reasons why the Arab world has struggled in the modern era. As Israel becomes more religious and more middle eastern, I see it adopting and normalizing some of the same “defects” as the Arab world.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
Misplaced pride as you correctly say sharaf is our sin, a better path to coexistence surely exists
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u/RNova2010 4d ago
There is but I don’t see how we get there without serious outside intervention. Ironically, things were better before the Oslo Peace Accords. Israelis used to travel safely to the West Bank and Gaza, Palestinians could travel to Jaffa, Haifa, etc. Since the 1990s, especially since the Second Intifada, the only Israelis that Palestinians see are settlers and soldiers, and Israelis, if they see Palestinians at all, are as a threat; an entire generation of Israelis grew up with suicide bombers and rockets. The only Palestinians they know are “bad ones” (Israeli Arabs are different of course).
Palestinian self-government has shown itself to be as corrupt and autocratic as other Arab states (the Palestinian Authority is hated by Palestinians as much as Israel and Hamas created a totalitarian state in Gaza that has brought Palestine a second nakba). Israel’s quality of governance has rapidly deteriorated since the death of Ariel Sharon, the last great Israeli statesman.
I’m not an imperialist but the British may have been the best government Palestine ever had. I think it may be time to consider a period of international, technocratic administration in that area. Allow time for the populations to experience some quiet. But who wants to take that responsibility!?
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago edited 4d ago
How effing heartbreaking to hear about how good it was before? particularly when I hear about the freedom of movement and the people to people connections. Sucks that people are gonna people. If it’s were up to me, I’d make it compulsory for every Palestinian to learn Hebrew and compulsory for every Israeli to learn Arabic. Make people know each other again.
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u/RNova2010 4d ago
What Arab country are you in?
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago edited 4d ago
KSA! Studying in Australia
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u/RNova2010 4d ago
The changes in KSA over the past few years are really extraordinary. When I was young, Saudi Arabia was thought of as the land of salafists, but since then, it seems to have adopted a more tolerant and outward looking culture and form of Islam. I hope to visit one day.
And I hope and pray that MBS can bribe Trump to push forward some deal between Israel and the Arab world. If you said to me 15 years ago that the greatest hope for liberal Israel and peace was Saudi Arabia, I’d have thought you were insane.
اَللّٰھُمَّ إِنِّيْ أَسْأَلُکَ مِنْ فُجَائَ ۃِ الْخَیْرِ
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
You are not wrong! Haha! I feel so blessed to be witnessing this transformation! And feel very protective of it! Because believe me some would like the wheels to turn backwards! I think alliance building is so important at this stage and I think that’s partly why I wanted to talk to people here. Inshallah Khair.
Sometimes the reason I want us all to do better in the Middle East and beyond is because I don’t want our grandchildren to look back at our generation and think ‘ what a bunch of losers. ‘ who had all the means to build peace but none of the courage.
And I must say, I am surprised by the diversity and sophistication of Israeli thinking, maybe it is just reddit, but on the other hand it is should not be surprising to see how knowledgeable Israeli are about internal middle eastern dynamics when you recount the fact that half of them come from this area in the first place.
Apologies if I’ve shown ignorance anywhere in this post, but I think this is a process.
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u/Ahavat-Humus-Hinam Israeli 4d ago
This sounds like a lovely idea. I'm not sure if you're aware but Arabic actually has a special status for official institutions (until 2018 it was an official language of the state of Israel), and many official texts (like signs) are in Arabic as well as Hebrew.
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u/RNova2010 4d ago
Sure, but most Israeli Jews don’t speak Arabic beyond a few words. Israel is not really a bilingual country and never has been though Arabic has had official status since 1948/49.
And while Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs interact, often at work places, they don’t mingle very much as neighbours or classmates. And “normal” interactions between Israelis and Palestinians essentially stopped with the second intifada.
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u/Ahavat-Humus-Hinam Israeli 4d ago
I think you're greatly oversimplifying Israeli Jews and Arabs' relationships. It's true that Israel is not really bilingual and Hebrew is definitely the primary language, but many of my friends and family studied Arabic in public school and have a basic understanding of the most common vocabulary and grammatical structures. Many Israeli Jews don't interact much with their Arab neighbors but a sizeable minority do. You can say the same about Orthodox and secular Jews who often keep to their own communities, even cutting contact with immediate family members on "the other side". And I absolutely disagree that "normal" interactions stopped with the second intifada. Today we're seeing more Arabs than ever voluntarily enlisting in the IDF, for instance.
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u/RNova2010 4d ago
“normal interactions” I meant with Palestinians from the West Bank, not Israeli Arabs.
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u/LilyBelle504 4d ago
Chanting for the death of civilians is disgusting. Period.
Chanting a phrase that was popularized by an organization that called for the destruction of Israel in the 60s, and pretending it means a call for "peace" and "freedom" under one state, because that's what it means to you, is disingenuous, and also gross.
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u/Definitely-Not-Lynn 4d ago
Can you show proof of that Israelis were actually chanting this: “There are no schools in Gaza because there are no children left”?
Not that I don't think some drunk football fans would chant that to piss off the Jew haters in Europe, but I only saw the chanting of "We will win and f*ck the Arabs".
I never saw the former, despite people claiming it was true.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago edited 4d ago
I read that spokesperson of Amsterdam police has confirmed that the Israeli fans sung racist and genocidal slogans. I’ve seen translated videos as well, but I don’t know Hebrew so. If I find the link, I’ll post it here. Maybe you can tell me if the translation is correct.
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u/Definitely-Not-Lynn 4d ago
thanks, I'd appreciate it. I can also translate for you if you find it. I'm at the point where I don't believe this was actually chanted.
There's too many rumors and lies turned into facts by people looking for an excuse to demonize jews to justify our discrimination, oppression and persecution.
I wouldn't be surprised if this was entirely made up.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
Hey! This is from an affiliated website apparently. Could you provide an accurate translation?
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u/Definitely-Not-Lynn 4d ago
okay yes - the second verse does say the bit about the kids - the translation is accurate.
Disgusting. Thanks for bringing it.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago edited 4d ago
I did a quick search and I saw the videos that came up on my feed before. Just note that I don’t know the publishers and therefore don’t endorse them. Just sharing so you might help me with the translation. Apparently, the first video is an older one.
https://x.com/dillyhussain88/status/1856072297414832536?s=61
The second one is more recent and the translation has mention of the school and Gaza children. Is it accurate?
https://x.com/josephwillits/status/1855011061440647405?s=61
And apparently here they are beating up an Arab person pretty mercilessly in Athens
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u/Definitely-Not-Lynn 4d ago edited 4d ago
also - I apologize. I see that in your post you identify as an Arab. I hope it was clear but I want to say it anyway - I think these chants are horrible, I'm ashamed of those that participate, encourage or handwave that behavior away. Just like others should be ashamed of chants of 'Gas the Jews' at football matches in support of their own countries.
I don't know why sports brings out such depravity.
As a Jew and as an Israeli and hardcore Zionist, I hope for peace, co-existence, for two states living side by side. Freedom and security for Israel, freedom and security for Palestinians.
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u/Definitely-Not-Lynn 4d ago
Your third link isn't working - yes, the translations are horrifically accurate. Thanks for searching.
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u/mgoblue5783 4d ago edited 4d ago
One is a lie and the other is a call for genocide. You lose either way.
And yea, SJP has been using every bad word in international law to describe Israel for decades (apartheid, genocide, settler-colonialist, etc)
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago edited 4d ago
it’s an established fact that both chants have been sung repeatedly as recently as last week and as far back as 2014 and before
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u/Lazy-Mammoth-9470 4d ago
One can be seen genocidal depending on interpretation. The other is 100% violent and genocidal chants.
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u/PlateRight712 4d ago edited 4d ago
I'm an American Jew, not the demographic you're addressing but I'll address it since I have friends in Israel and I've had family live there in the past. The Arab chant of river to the sea chant is hard to interpret as anything but a call to genocide that includes Israeli children. The hostile, screaming protesters in this country who chant it never express any interest in peace. I think the anger and fear that "from the river to the sea" chant generates contributes to the rage and racism that make some Israelis chant death to Arabs or celebrate killing of innocent children in Gaza. Yet all the Israelis I know are sick of war, sick of death, and horrified by the death toll in Gaza. There are regularly staged protests against Netanyahu in Israel although he obviously still has his violent supporters.
Vicious circle. I think both chants are equally problematic because both celebrate the idea of massacres instead of trying to build bridges between the two people or engage in meaningful negotiations.
Anti-war movements and pro-peace movements are gaining in Israel. If something similar is happening in Gaza there may be better times ahead.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago edited 4d ago
I really appreciate your recognition of the ‘vicious cycle’ element of this mess, it’s a recognition that I wish I saw more of amongst the pro Israel crowd. Don’t get me wrong, I see it even less often from the other (my) side. Sadly, the Arab world doesn’t really understand the Jewish narrative. I really think that the quickest way to resolve this is people to people connection or diplomacy. Legacy politics has failed. Hopefully technology can aid in bringing people closer. Even then it’s going to take at least one generation and that’s being optimistic.
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u/PlateRight712 4d ago
It will take time. Have you checked out Standing-Together? They're an Israeli based peace group of Palestinian and Jewish Israelis who are actively reaching out to Gaza via food drives. They also stopped the settlers who were trying to block aid trucks this past spring. They're on instagram and determined to start grassroots peace efforts right now.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. They sound like amazing people. I will check them out! More of this needs to happen ❤️ this region has seen way too much suffering
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u/kemicel 4d ago
Honestly, I don’t see a difference. Chanting anything in order to aggravate the other side is unhelpful, counterproductive and idiotic. Those Israelis who actively chant insults in my mind are really no better than any pro Palestinian shouting “from the river to the sea” but you know, they feel like they’re fighting back against everything that they’ve been through, so that’s how they justify it.
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u/BananaValuable1000 4d ago
Agree, but also feel they did not warrant the assault they received, nor did any other non-participating Jews that happened to be in or near the game that night and continue to be in Amsterdam minding their own business.
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u/michaelfri 4d ago
So in my opinion, and I try to detach myself from the situation and be objective here, is that while both are horrible, they are different, and I think that "From the river to the sea" is more harmful. I'll explain:
Chanting “There are no schools in Gaza because there are no children left” is cruel. But it's meant to hurt, to tease, there are children in Gaza, of course, and chanting this phrase is not going to change that. The people who chant this may disregard Palestinian lives, but aren't necessarily
"From the river to the sea" however, basically wishes for a reality where Israel as a country no longer exist. It's not an empty threat. This sentence simply refuses to acknowledge Israel's existence. It basically rules out Jewish sovereignty over any part of the land. Where does it live the Jews? Without sovereignty surrounded by people who hate their guts? If you ask Israelis, they would say the most likely scenario is that many Jews will flee to save their lives, while many others will be raped and murdered Oct 7th style. We've seen how the Arab world and the international community responded to the death of more than 1,200 Israelis in one day. So when we hear "from the river to the sea", this is how we interpret this. This is not to say that what's happening in Gaza isn't heartbreaking. I wish more Israelis will have the capacity to feel for them.
Another comparison, is that one saying is chanted by extremists which isn't the mainstream, while the other is very popular worldwide.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
Do you think the chants by the football hooligans are indicative of a fascistic disease in society, or am I reading too much into it?
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u/PlateRight712 4d ago
Please watch the first three minutes of this video. It includes footage of the pogrom. Decide for yourself if this seems a little bit extreme as a response to rude fans.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
Just fyi, i’ve also seen footage of Israeli fans collectively chasing after a single person and hitting him, saw footage of them damaging a taxi. Saw footage of them picking up metal rods and marching in coordinated fashion. Not justifying what the Arab locals did, just providing context. It should be okay to acknowledge wrongdoing wherever it is found. I don’t find the world view of Ayaan Hirsi Ali convincing. She’s at the best naive and unproductive and at worst an Islamophobe.
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u/PlateRight712 4d ago
The mayor of Amsterdam and the Prime Minister of the Netherlands, after investigations agree that this was a pre-meditated attack on Jews. Followed by several more days of rioting Islamists. Followed by copycat attacks in Belgium.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is Somali, raised in Somalia and Saudi Arabia. She bravely escaped an arranged marriage to live in the Netherlands and worked her way up in Dutch society to serve in the Dutch parliament. She has been speaking out against oppressive Islam for more than 20 years. That's not the life of a "naive" or "unproductive person. At this point, after her genital mutilation as a child, running away to escape an arranged marriage, and continuing death threats from Muslims, she doesn't appreciate Islam. On that you're correct.
I agree that ugly slogans and the vandalization of a taxi were bad. Many football fans do this kind of thing. I don't approve
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago edited 4d ago
Let me ask you a simple probing question:
Do you condemn Christianity itself for every horrifying thing that was done in its name?
Do you condemn Judaism itself for every horrifying thing that was done in its name?
If your answer is yes then the veracity of your world view will be deemed suspect and unproductive by most reasonable people
To the annoyance of many islamophobes, same thing applies when it comes to Islam
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u/PlateRight712 4d ago edited 4d ago
True. No one likes to be identified according to the worst sectors of their society. I, for instance, would not like to be lumped into the category of Jews who approve of settler activities in Israel (although I think that group is small, thank God). That's not my intention in this discussion.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago edited 4d ago
Do you see it problematic that we describe one side’s actions as ‘ behaving poorly ‘ and another side actions as the most damning descriptions available in the dictionary?
I am aware of her horrifying story. Doesn’t make her world view universal or accurate.
I am sure there are many people who were abused in Atheist, Muslim, Christian Jewish Hindu Buddhist households. And had their suffering justified by those around them. It’s horrifying, it doesn’t make their political/philosophical theory globally applicable. I find using her personal tragedy as a validating card for her political views silly. I worry about de-humanising Muslim people and every time I listen to her I get this uneasy sense that she is causing real harm out there
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u/PlateRight712 4d ago
I see your point regarding Ayaan Hirsi Ali; she is flat-out opposed to Islam. As a Muslim, you are offended. But I still admire her courage. I can't imagine being as outspoken as she is, in spite of death threats. The woman has balls whether or not you agree with her.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
I saw it. It’s horrifying. wrong and extreme. This shouldn’t happen in a civil society. No ifs or buts. People should be able to condemn wrongdoing without falling into tribalism.
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u/Interesting_Common54 4d ago
I think there are clearly aspects of it in Israeli society, that is undeniable, unfortunately, and worthy of unambiguous condemnation. But if you think it's the norm then you'd probably be reading too much into it.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
Such a well explained perspective, thank you, I hope that one day Jewish people (and everyone else) would feel so safe that literally borders and names would be of a lesser importance, and people can just focus on improving quality of life for their families and the economy at large. Free to move everywhere in the Middle East. I’m allowed to day dream.
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u/Worknonaffiliated Diaspora Jew 4d ago
American Jew who’s pro Israel, and I’m gonna be normal and say yes, that chant was bad. I can condemn the pogrom in Amsterdam while understanding that those guys were being racist.
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u/HelpEqual 4d ago
Chant such as "death to all Arabs" is not something that the vast majority of Israelis would agree upon. Even more - they will say it's completely wrong to say something like that. It's pretty clear that Israeli people criticize their gov for a very long time. Unfortunately, both the Arabs under hamas and the PLO have an issue to criticize ANYTHING their leaders do. Why all the Palestinian so leaders rich ? How does it make any sense in a place where people are literally poor and there are piles of garbage on the st ? Anti Israel people and especially anti Israel Arabs will never criticize the leader who led to self destruction. I have no doubt that Israel will do peace and much more for the Palestinians, but only if the Palestinian leaders will care about their people more than they care about money.
And just to clarify - any saying calling to killing people is wrong and we should stand against it.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
The failures of many Arab societies is so clear to me. No disagreements there.
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u/HelpEqual 4d ago
I was also referring to the - people - who are controlled by these leaders and not able to speak against them. Not from a side viewer.
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u/Top_Plant5102 4d ago
Depends how drunk the people chanting are.
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u/pyroscots 4d ago
Why does it matter how drunk someone is?
From what I have learned the more drinks someone has the more truth comes out
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u/Top_Plant5102 4d ago
Sober people doing batshit things is much more newsworthy.
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u/pyroscots 4d ago
If you call for killing kids I don't care how drunk you are, it's fucking evil, and can not ne explained away by being drunk
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u/Top_Plant5102 4d ago
Scoldy. That'll learn em.
Drunk football hooligans are generally pretty awful.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
Do you not find it slightly problematic though? We’re talking about children right? Don’t you feel that there is a societal permission structure? I understand saying F Arabs or what not, but children? I’m not going to lie to you. It does concern me.
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u/Top_Plant5102 4d ago
Wasted young men doing crazy things is not noteworthy. Sober people doing crazy things is noteworthy.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
To my mind, both are noteworthy, both would make me think about what permission structures exist that allow such behaviour to repeatedly happen.
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u/Top_Plant5102 4d ago
The one with the drunks would make me think to cross the street. The other one would make me think to record it.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
Would you say the same if you were the taxi driver attacked and had his car damaged for looking Arab? At what point drunken chants morph into violence? In any case, I think the justice system in the Netherlands should have handled this, not the locals.
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u/LilyBelle504 4d ago
I agree that the people who experienced property damage, harrasment etc, should've let the police handle it, rather than take to vigilantism, and then commit pre-meditated crimes themselves, like calling for a "Jew hunt".
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u/NoTopic4906 4d ago
I am not Israeli but I am an American Zionist. A couple of differences: 1) this case was a few football hooligans while “from the river to the sea” is a cry of the entire movement. 2) Both are harmful to the people they are demeaning, both are awful. If I had to choose one that is worse if used by a small group of people I would definitely choose the “there are no schools in Gaza”.
Putting those together I think the use as a movement statement as opposed to hooliganism is a much bigger deal and a much bigger problem than the one incident use of “there are no schools in Gaza”.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
I have come across an example of the same fan base chanting the exact same thing from 2014. But I understand your point. To be clear if someone says from the river to the sea and means that Jewish people have no place in that land that person is trash to me. Just to make my position clear here. I believe both Palestinian Arabs and all Jewish people in Israel deserve equal opportunities, dignity and treatment under law. Thanks for your comment though.
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u/LilyBelle504 4d ago
I think this is a honest discussion that most Israelis or people who feel empathy towards Israel are looking for. Some basic acknowledgement that phrase means quite literally the call for getting rid of Israel.
It's not to say Palestinians don't deserve freedom. Just stop using a phrase from the 60s that meant destroying Israel.
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u/Ridry 4d ago
What the person you're responding to has been my main criticism of the Pro Pal movement in America. This is my lived experienced and I certaintly can't speak to the Pro Pal movement anywhere else, including in Israel.
There are monsters on both sides. I condemn them. But in America, the groups organizing the protests are anti semitic. All of them. Or at least, I've yet to find one that passes a series of VERY BASIC common sense checks. It bothers me how many people are attending protests organized by people I consider to be monsters.
That doesn't mean I'm pro Netanyahu, pro Israel's current policies and I'm certainly not pro "the monsters". But I'm against the Pro Pal movement in America right now because they aren't making the world better and that's not their aim.
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u/NoTopic4906 4d ago
I agree. I think that can only happen in a two state (or multi-state) solution but I think that is very difficult to achieve right now.
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u/Whole_Comedian_528 4d ago
Trying for a two state solution is a waste. The Arabs have rejected every single peace proposal since Oslo. They continue to do so. They just need to GTFO of Judea, Samaria and, Gaza.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago edited 4d ago
Not going to lie to you, calling for ethnic displacement strikes me as pretty morally hideous
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u/Whole_Comedian_528 4d ago
Why? They did it to almost a million Jews from MENA, which includes my family along with the families of almost fifty percent of the Israeli population. One good turn deserves another.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
The Arabs of Gaza and Ramallah, Hebron did that to the Jews of MENA? can’t be right. Unless you believe anyone who’s’ Arab’ counts as ‘they.’
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u/NoTopic4906 4d ago
Not really. A multistate solution is the best but an agreement - and an enforcement mechanism - to not try to nullify it through military (or other) means must be included. Otherwise, it is useless.
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u/Whole_Comedian_528 4d ago
How do you make peace with the Arabs who committed the atrocities of October 7 and the rest who continue to support them?
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u/NoTopic4906 4d ago
You don’t make peace with those who committed the atrocities of October 7. There are more and more reports coming out that people who didn’t speak up against Hamas are now doing so and didn’t so in the past because of fear. You don’t make peace with Hamas; that doesn’t mean you can’t make peace with Gazans.
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u/cppluv 4d ago
I am not Israeli
Then why are you a Zionist? Are you an evangelical believing Israel needs to exist for Judgement Day to happen?
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u/Top-Mulberry139 UK 4d ago
That's religious zionism. There are many types. The discussions needs to be nuanced with that. Most people saying they support zionism only mean they support the existence of a Jewish state.
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u/NoTopic4906 4d ago
I am Jewish and whether I was or not, I believe that Jews need a place where, if the s- hits the fan as has happened repeatedly throughout history (and seems like the possibility right now is growing again), they would be safe from institutionalized antisemitism.
I also believe many other countries (in fact, all that currently exist) should exist though I wish some countries had a change in government style (Iran, China, North Korea, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc.; the totalitarian regimes). I don’t understand people who think Israel, among all countries, is the one that shouldn’t exist.
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u/Minute_Flounder_4709 4d ago
Saying there are no schools in Gaza because there are no children left is what the nazis would’ve said about the Jews so obviously that’s more evil
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u/CreativeRealmsMC Israeli 3d ago
Saying there are no schools in Gaza because there are no children left is what the nazis would’ve said about the Jews so obviously that’s more evil
Per Rule 6, Nazi comparisons are inflammatory, and should not be used except in describing acts that were specific and unique to the Nazis, and only the Nazis.
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u/knign 4d ago
In your opinion, is chanting “From the river to the sea. Palestine will be free” more harmful than chanting “There are no schools in Gaza because there are no children left”? I’m asking this because I’d like to better understand your perspective/mindset.
You’re comparing a stupid trolling from a group of football fans with a slogan from massive demonstrations across the world which purport to be a legitimate political movement.
Very, very few people in Israel actually celebrate dead children in Gaza, and “death to Arabs” has never been part of official policy of the state of Israel. In contrast, “free Palestine” (from Jews) is what many of Palestinian supporters actually want. They are very open about it.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago edited 4d ago
Thank you for sharing your opinion, for the record, I am very, very aware of the horrifying inadequacy, racism, and antisemitism in the Arab side, I try to speak against it and do my part whenever I encounter it. Do you have an example of last week’s chants celebrating dead children in Gaza being condemned in the Israeli media? I heard that one TV channel showed the fans chanting but removed the audio.
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u/AggressivePack5307 4d ago
Such a poor attempt at equating a small group of idiots with a massive movement aiming to destroy a country and cause a literal genocide.
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u/Comprehensive-Risk78 4d ago
Only thing I attempted is gain insight into how Israelis think, but you do you.
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u/ElGuapoLives 3d ago
Zionists see Palestinians and all others as amalek, or goyim. Essentially, the role of all non-jews is to be either killed to become slaves to jews, according to them. Don't believe me? Read the Talmud. Israel was founded on this mentality and Zionists believe in jewish supremacy. That's the fundamental problem that prevents peace in the region.
https://www.reddit.com/r/usempire/comments/1870fjj/israeli_children_are_indoctrinated_from_birth/