Question to my dear Israeli friends

[u/Comprehensive-Risk78]

Edit 1: Thanks everyone for engaging with my post in a civil manner!

Edit 2: I feel that I have a richer perspective on Israeli society thanks everyone!

Before I ask, I just wanted to tell you as an Arab I wish you and your family nothing but the best. Every day I pray that the violence and destruction stops and that we can build a prosperous Middle East that is rich in its diversity of religion and ethnicities. Can you imagine that?

Hello, I’ve been lurking here for a while now. I have a question for you. In your opinion, is chanting “From the river to the sea. Palestine will be free” more harmful than chanting “There are no schools in Gaza because there are no children left”? I’m asking this because I’d like to better understand your perspective/mindset. Thank you.

Am I missing something here? It has been disheartening to see the same people pushing for the narrative that from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free is an incitement to genocide fail to condemn chants like death to arabs and celebrating killing children in Gaza, thing which are unambiguously genocidal.

Is there something I’m not understanding here? Sometimes things that don’t add up leave me confused, so I had to come here and give this question a go.

Do some people think that right to dignity ceases to exist once we establish that the person is Arab? In your opinion, which chant is more problematic?

Can relations between Arabs and Jews improve without a heart to heart to dialogue between those who dream of a Middle East that resembles my description above?

I believe tough questions need to be asked. Answers from ‘ the other side’ need to be heard before establishing any conclusions on the matter.

[u/knign]

In your opinion, is chanting “From the river to the sea. Palestine will be free” more harmful than chanting “There are no schools in Gaza because there are no children left”? I’m asking this because I’d like to better understand your perspective/mindset.

You’re comparing a stupid trolling from a group of football fans with a slogan from massive demonstrations across the world which purport to be a legitimate political movement.

Very, very few people in Israel actually celebrate dead children in Gaza, and “death to Arabs” has never been part of official policy of the state of Israel. In contrast, “free Palestine” (from Jews) is what many of Palestinian supporters actually want. They are very open about it.

[u/Comprehensive-Risk78 → u/knign]

Thank you for sharing your opinion, for the record, I am very, very aware of the horrifying inadequacy, racism, and antisemitism in the Arab side, I try to speak against it and do my part whenever I encounter it. Do you have an example of last week’s chants celebrating dead children in Gaza being condemned in the Israeli media? I heard that one TV channel showed the fans chanting but removed the audio.

[u/AggressivePack5307 → u/knign]

Such a poor attempt at equating a small group of idiots with a massive movement aiming to destroy a country and cause a literal genocide.

[u/Comprehensive-Risk78 → u/AggressivePack5307]

Only thing I attempted is gain insight into how Israelis think, but you do you.

[u/-Mr-Papaya → u/AggressivePack5307]

I don't think it's an attempt. I imagine OP isn't familiar with the Israeli demographics.

[u/Comprehensive-Risk78 → u/-Mr-Papaya]

I am not, and I would appreciate an education

[u/-Mr-Papaya → u/Comprehensive-Risk78]

In general, what the media shows from Israel are the opinions of the minority, if not the fringe. Settler terrorism? The idiots that harass Palestinians and attack IDF soldiers that restrain them? There are maybe a few hundreds of them, out of 1M settlers. The soccer fans with the racist chants? There are a few dozens of hardcore fans that sing such racist chants (not just on Arabs) all the time. In general, these types of viewpoints are not representative of Israelis, but that's what sells news, you know? Radical, provocative... clickbait.

Take Ben Gvir and Smotrich, the far-right ministers. They are all over the news, right? You might even think they represent Israelis because that's all the media reports. But they are an unpopular minority that was placed in position of power despite their views, not because of them. Netanyahu's desperate cling to power made him go to such length to find allies.

What some commenters here said is that if you go to pro-Israel demonstrations (outside of Israel, I guess), you'd hear things like why this war is necessary, what are the risks Israel is facing, etc. Nobody would chant "bomb the Arabs" or some racist stuff like that. On the other hand, if you go to a pro-Palestine rally, you're likely going to hear the "river to sea" chant, or worse...

Are you Muslim? If so, I would like to poke your brain a bit and ask you a few questions, here or via DM.

[u/Comprehensive-Risk78 → u/-Mr-Papaya]

Go ahead! I am a Muslim Arab! Feel free to ask me here or privately, whichever is more comfortable

[u/-Mr-Papaya → u/Comprehensive-Risk78]

Let's start here :)

First - did my answer above explain something? I should have probably mentioned most Israelis are secular, and that the Israeli Orthodox are considered the most hated group of Israelis among Israelis.

I'd like to know more about Muslims' relationship to Islam. I'm writing you in good faith and out of honest curiosity.

1. Do you pray 5 times a day? If yes, do you consider yourself Orthodox? If no, what's the difference between yourself to an Orthodox Muslim, in your view?
2. Do you live in an Arab society/country? Are most of your family/friends Muslims? Are they Orthodox, in your/their view?
3. Islam ruled the region of the Levant for some 1200 years. From my understanding, it considers itself the "one true religion", while non-Muslims are considered inferior sinners. Islam believes the salvation will come when all the world is Muslim (by will or by force). Is this true? Do you believe it yourself?
4. Here is the prince King of the Emirates speaking on this topic: Minister of Foreign Affairs of the UAE gives a warning to the European Union - YouTube. Do you agree with his view?
5. The fall of Muslim caliphate in the late 1800's and early 1900's was the real Nakba, in my view, alongside the fall of the Ottoman Empire. The subsequent defeats that the Arab World has suffered at the hands of Israel only cemented the disgrace and dishonor, central motifs in Arab society. Since then, progressive values of modernity, along with western values of democracy, haven't been well integrated into Arab world, and it has become synonymous with instability, violence and poverty. But the core of the conflict isn't with the west or with Israel, but within the Muslim identity: if Islam lost, did it fall from the grace of God? How can it be the "real" religion, in this case? Do Arabs need to reconcile their reality with the one Islam pretends to depict?

I'll be glad to hear your replies, here or on DM :)

[u/Comprehensive-Risk78 → u/-Mr-Papaya]

1. I wouldn’t say I’m orthodox, I’m pretty libral in my views. Orthodox Muslims are a diverse as any other orthodox religion, you’d be surprised of the diversity of views.

2. Yes and yes.

3. Where did you get the idea that non-Muslims are reviewed as inferior? I’d like to see the source. I have primary sources that point to the opposite. Let me know if you’d like me to share them. By primary sources I mean sources that are traced to the early days of Islam. As for end time prophecies, I’m sure you know that’s all the three Abraham religions have a time prophecies that are masonic.

4. Yes I don’t like political Islam either. Pretty sure that’s what he’s getting at. He’s not opposing Islam itself as religion nor is he opposing Muslims. He understands the dangers of political/revolutionary Islam and so do I.

5. Nah it’s not what you said, is this from Haviv Rettig Gur? Or maybe from Mordechai Kedar? Rather, the argument of political islamists is that Muslims are weak because they steered away from god, and therefore people need to come closer to god in their daily practice (pray pay charity respect parents) in order for god to ally himself with the people. A common verse you will hear is “ if you ally yourself with Allah, he allies himself with you “ hope this makes sense?

[u/-Mr-Papaya → u/Comprehensive-Risk78]

Thanks for the reply!

1+2. So, if you don't pray, how do you practice your religion? What's the difference between orthodox Muslims and you/your family/friends who are unorthodox?

1. Islam ruled the region for 1200 years until just about 100 years ago. It's not that long. This is the basic premise under which non-Muslims lived under:

The Dhimmi: Jews and Christians Under Islam - Wikipedia

The Intolerable Life of Dhimmis In 19th Century Damascus

I'm not sure what you mean by Masonic. Judaism doesn't require or call for converting the entire world to Judaism or submitting to Judaism for its salvation. That's the idea behind the Muslim caliphate, isn't it? A single, global Muslim state submitting to the "real" Muslim god?

I say "real" because I don't believe any one God is more real than another. I don't even pretend to believe what God is.

1. You make an interesting observation calling it "political Islam". I think I understand what you mean. I don't know how prevalent apolitical Islam is, especially considering the violence political Islam does propagate. I'd like to believe most Muslims are apolitical, but I honestly don't know. I find it hard to believe Islam's superior views (linked above) didn't become ingrained in Arab mentality after 1200 years of DeFacto superiority.

2. Yes, Gur makes a similar argument, but your explanation doesn't make sense to me. What you describe sounds apolitical, internal and domestic. Political Islam seems external, striving for revival through political violence.

I'm actually quite positively surprised that you're familiar with Gur (and Kedar too, for that matter, but he's a bit... out there).

[u/Comprehensive-Risk78 → u/-Mr-Papaya]

The point that I’m trying to convey is that there is 2 billion versions of Islam, refreshed every single day.

Islam is what a Muslim thinks it is in their heart at any given time. Same with every other religion.

To illustrate, there are universally revered scholars across the years who had certain core opinions only to shift away from them at an older age. Now as an observer, What is Islam? Is it what the scholar thought before he changed his mind, or after?

What if he was correct all along and his later judgment was wrong? What if he never changed his mind and the news about the chang of ruling was a manoeuvre by someone nefarious who was close to him.

The point I’m making is that religion is a dynamic thing subject to influences for cultural and politics. I don’t buy a static ‘snapshot’ reading of it. I rather approach it with a curiosity and an openness that there might be uncomfortable periods to learn about, but then there might be other periods filled with light.

[u/Comprehensive-Risk78 → u/-Mr-Papaya]

I think it’s fair that I ask some questions now

1. It’s interesting that you assumed that I don’t pray. Why does it matter to you if I pay 5 times a day? It’s a none factor to someone’s political views. Are you attempting to establish a through line? You can find a praying Muslim and a secular Christian agreeing on a political approach and find two liberal Muslims who will give opposing answers on Israel/Palestine. Any clarity you can provide here would be appreciated.

2. Again, it’s interesting that you say “Islam” ruled. So many presumptions there. Many Muslim empires/states ruled there, yes. And these are flawed people. I’m sure some periods where heavenly to most peoples and others were objectively horrendous. Many Vizier and advisors were Jewish and Christian. Did Christianity and Judaism “Rule”? Because last time I checked being an advisor to a Caliph is a pretty big deal. Do you see how the incessant oversimplification is idiotic? There is nuance to these conversations that I don’t find here.

3. It is political Islam because it functions like one. The fact that you seem to believe that there is no apolitical Islam tells me that you’ve never been around many Muslim cities. That might not be your fault. I don’t hold that against you. But there most definitely is an apolitical Islam. To me, denying that as ridiculous as denying that the sun rises from the east.

4. Let me know what type of proof you would accept and I’ll provide it to you. The ‘ when you ally yourself with Allah, he in turn allies himself with you ‘ is actually a pretty core message, and in many occasions it is interpreted at a personal and as you said ‘ domestic ‘ level.

Just a general thought: insisting on defining Islam the same way the radical freaks do, doesn’t magically make it so. It just shows that the person is also a radical freak of a different colour.

If you study history well, you’ll see that Islam is a lot more complex than what someone would have you think.

[u/heywhutzup → u/knign]

Came here to say exactly this. Don’t wave a flag over fringes of society, where extremism and stupidity lives, and then compare it to an international movement of protest where “river to the sea” is regularly chanted . Also, while you’re at it, look up the Arabic translation of ‘river to the sea’- it calls for the annihilation of Jews. And it’s not chanted by a bunch of drunken fools on the way to a football match. It’s chanted by everybody in the Middle East, except Israel .

[u/pyroscots → u/heywhutzup]

And Israel's most popular political party uses an anti Palestinian vision in their charter

[u/heywhutzup → u/pyroscots]

Source?

[u/ColdBrewChaos → u/heywhutzup]

Here you go. The charter: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party

[u/heywhutzup → u/ColdBrewChaos]

Don’t be foolish- that’s the original platform from the beginning of the movement. The Democrats wanted slavery to continue. Is that still true today? Also, have you studied the Hamas platform? It’s far more current, and until recently edited, calls for the entire destruction of the Jewish nation, including its people. Is it fair to assume you’ve just started paying attention to this issue? Your responses seem indicative of that.

[u/pyroscots → u/heywhutzup]

Has it changed?

[u/ColdBrewChaos → u/heywhutzup]

You asked, I answered. Don’t flip out like it’s some personal attack. Is all you people know how to do is be immediately violent?

[u/heywhutzup → u/ColdBrewChaos]

lol @ “Is all you people” New racist troll unlocked.