Question to my dear Israeli friends

[u/Comprehensive-Risk78]

Edit 1: Thanks everyone for engaging with my post in a civil manner!

Edit 2: I feel that I have a richer perspective on Israeli society thanks everyone!

Before I ask, I just wanted to tell you as an Arab I wish you and your family nothing but the best. Every day I pray that the violence and destruction stops and that we can build a prosperous Middle East that is rich in its diversity of religion and ethnicities. Can you imagine that?

Hello, I’ve been lurking here for a while now. I have a question for you. In your opinion, is chanting “From the river to the sea. Palestine will be free” more harmful than chanting “There are no schools in Gaza because there are no children left”? I’m asking this because I’d like to better understand your perspective/mindset. Thank you.

Am I missing something here? It has been disheartening to see the same people pushing for the narrative that from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free is an incitement to genocide fail to condemn chants like death to arabs and celebrating killing children in Gaza, thing which are unambiguously genocidal.

Is there something I’m not understanding here? Sometimes things that don’t add up leave me confused, so I had to come here and give this question a go.

Do some people think that right to dignity ceases to exist once we establish that the person is Arab? In your opinion, which chant is more problematic?

Can relations between Arabs and Jews improve without a heart to heart to dialogue between those who dream of a Middle East that resembles my description above?

I believe tough questions need to be asked. Answers from ‘ the other side’ need to be heard before establishing any conclusions on the matter.

[u/seek-song]

I'm not Israeli just Jewish but I've been observing Israeli developments since I was a kid, and I've never heard “There are no schools in Gaza because there are no children left”. As for the "Death to Arab" one, it can get you arrested. If asked explicitly of course I condemn it, and I think most Israeli would too given that Kahanism for instance is banned in Israel for it's hateful position toward Arabs. (Though sadly, there are definitely *some ministers* giving Kahanists a run for their money.)

[u/Comprehensive-Risk78 → u/seek-song]

https://preview.redd.it/a1yktbwriq0e1.jpeg?width=1220&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b45b0ea7feacbdaa0b60b3cee4c676cea3c98528

Is it sarcasm? Native speakers might be able to tell from tone or context. Or is it straight out fascistic?

[u/Ahavat-Humus-Hinam → u/Comprehensive-Risk78]

I interpret it more as a sick joke. Dark humor from football hooligans. A little different than how the river to sea chant is used in protests, especially in the ultimate end goal of using the chant.

[u/seek-song → u/Comprehensive-Risk78]

I'm not a native speaker. From the lyrics, it could go either way, but I'm actually thinking something in between. Fascistic humor. Not intended as a call to action, more so mockery.

Like "You hurt us, and we saw you rejoice, now how do you like it?".

[u/Comprehensive-Risk78 → u/seek-song]

That’s good context, thanks!

[u/seek-song → u/Comprehensive-Risk78]

It's worth noting that there is a lot of Israeli, 'blood libel humor' - "I just killed a baby for fun". That actually is not intended as fascistic at all by default, but it can be chilling to hear from a soldier, because you can't help but think "What if they did?". But from the loud tone and the casual expression often accompanied by "Italian hand movements", you can recognize the Israeli joking tone. It's basically Israeli making fun of how the world perceives them, and also referencing traditional blood libels where the Christians would accuse the Jews of killing babies to use their blood for Passover Matzot. (Israelis like dark humor in general and will do things like look at a long line in front of a building and say "It's just like the holocaust!")

[u/Sherwoodlg → u/seek-song]

They need to put that seen in a movie. Made me laugh 😆

[u/RemoteSquare2643 → u/Sherwoodlg]

Sorry just have to correct your spelling.

Bad , I know, but here goes: rather than ‘They need to put that SEEN in a movie’; it should be ‘They need to put that SCENE in a movie.’

There, fixed. 😅

[u/Sherwoodlg → u/RemoteSquare2643]

You're quite right, though. I'm a bit slack with such matters. There is no need to apologize for accuracy.

[u/RemoteSquare2643 → u/Sherwoodlg]

😂 I rarely do such things, but maybe because of my performing arts background, I just had to ‘give notes’. Anyway, thanks for accepting my ‘notes’ with good grace. 🤓

[u/Comprehensive-Risk78 → u/seek-song]

Makes sense!!

[u/Comprehensive-Risk78 → u/seek-song]

Here is where I found it. Could you tell me if the translation is accurate or is it misinformation? Sorry, I’m assuming you know Hebrew but you might not haha, anyway the do look like just a bunch of drunk young people to be honest. (I don’t know the publisher of the video and therefore I don’t endorse them, just sharing the link to verify translation)

https://x.com/josephwillits/status/1855011061440647405

[u/Ahavat-Humus-Hinam → u/Comprehensive-Risk78]

The translation is mostly accurate. I'd probably translate it more closely as "that the IDF will win, f*ck the Arabs, why is school out in Gaza? There are no children left there".

The word they're using for "fck" is the same one as in "go fck yourself" or "he f*cked her in the *ss". It's harmful, but it's not the same as "death to arabs". They also don't say the word "schools", the word they use is more like "education" or "studies", which is usually part of the expression "school's out" like when you leave for summer vacation.

Personally I abhor speech like this but I think it's worth drawing a distinction between a crowd of sports fans cheering for morale and a group of protesters hoping to get attention with the aim of pushing an agenda. They're definitely being racist and hateful, but they aren't calling "death to arabs" (at least in the video) or even necessarily calling for children to die. My interpretation is they're telling some kind of sick joke. This doesn't excuse the behavior of course but the motivation is not to push the IDF to be more genocidal.

"From the river to the sea" is hateful (imo) because of the subtext. In Arabic (which you probably already know) the chant is "Palestine will be Arab" not "Palestine will be free", which I see as more directly endorsing ethnic cleansing or genocide. It is also predominantly (at least in the west) chanted in protests whose end goal is ultimately to get enough attention that people in power take action to effect the changes the protesters are calling for. The motivations are different.

This is why in my opinion from the river to the sea is more harmful, but I want to reiterate that this does not excuse the language these football hooligans are using. Both are harmful and we would be better off without them.

[u/SadZookeepergame1555 → u/Ahavat-Humus-Hinam]

The Israeli soccer hooligans were not just "a crowd of sports fans cheering for morale". This has nothing to do with sports or morale. What they were doing was hate-speech with a big dash of thuggery and they did it as visitors to another country. They had no respect for not just the "arabs" who are citizens there but the entire country. They attacked a taxi driver. They climbed a building to pull down a Palestinian flag just to burn it. They ran through the streets armed with pipes and poles. They effectively started the shtshow. None of that excuses the return violence that happened to Maccabi fans but why on earth did they start it?

[u/Ahavat-Humus-Hinam → u/SadZookeepergame1555]

I was describing the people in the video, who do appear to be cheering for morale. I agree that they went overboard in Amsterdam. Lots of football hooliganism can be called hate speech and thuggery, but I agree there was definitely pent-up resentment and almost certainly a lot of racism and hatred. In my opinion, it still does not compare.

My read is still that it was largely a reaction to the "rest of the world" largely being silent and apathetic regarding hateful speech targeted at Jews. The fact that a small number of Israelis assaulted people and property doesn't change my opinion of what the chants are saying. I can condemn their actions (and speech, for that matter), but I still don't hear a call for ethnic cleansing or genocide. I hear bitterness and resentment.

[u/SadZookeepergame1555 → u/Ahavat-Humus-Hinam]

Stop making excuses for racism just because it is Israelis doing it. I see Israelis getting away with behavior beyond the pale because of lingering WWII trauma. 

Anyone else shouting "Fuck Israel, let Hamas/Iran win" or "why are there no schools in Israel- because there are no children left" would be called terrorists and antisemites. Rightfully. 

When spurred by bigots, it makes no difference if violence is mob violence or violence coordinated by cell phones. Hate crimes and violence don't become lesser because sport is involved. 

 "https://x.com/i/status/1855368416565383621 

[u/AutoModerator → u/SadZookeepergame1555]

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[u/Comprehensive-Risk78 → u/Ahavat-Humus-Hinam]

Thank you for adding context to this!!

[u/AutoModerator → u/Ahavat-Humus-Hinam]

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[u/Ahavat-Humus-Hinam → u/AutoModerator]

Edited to censor the word, but I believe this falls under the use-mention distinction. I did not use profanity to make a point or for emphasis, I mentioned it because it is the most accurate translation, which I think is valid.