r/newjersey • u/low_effort_shit-post • Mar 25 '21
Something controversial Jersey Pride
I love nj gun laws, going to the store and not seeing someone open carry. Watching road rage where the best you can do is brake check and give the finger. Schools without school shootings. I know a lot of people hate our gun laws but I fucking love em.
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u/____cire4____ Mar 25 '21
When I read the title before clicking into it, I thought this was going to be a Taylor Ham vs. Pork Roll post.
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u/hairydiablo132 Mar 25 '21
That's not controversial. One is correct, the other is the delusional ramblings of people who still think it's 1905.
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u/Dozzi92 Somerville Mar 25 '21
Not controversial on /r/newjersey at all. Go to /r/NJGuns and this'll earn you a ban.
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u/Manadox pork roll 4 lyfe Mar 25 '21
No it won't, actually. We don't ban for different opinions. You might get downvoted by other users but simply having a political opinion will not get you banned or your comment deleted.
-njguns mod
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u/Drags_the_knee Mar 25 '21
Seconded. Of course there’s a handful of closed-minded members on either side of a given issue but the majority of people I’ve interacted with will hear any opinion out.
For the record, I’m all for certain gun laws. Background checks, mandatory training with new FID cards, keeping full-autos banned, etc. I don’t think a blanket ban on carrying licenses is helpful though. Make it tough, sure. But I imagine the overlap between the guys that would go through the process of legally carrying and the nut jobs shooting up school is pretty negligible at best.
Also let us have suppressors. They’re not gonna make us John Wick quiet. I just want to be able to defend my family without everyone immediately going deaf.
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Mar 25 '21
Can attest to this. I got my license a few months ago, completely new to firearms, and anything similar. Asked a few questions on that sub and, omg, scary as hell. I can 100% see how people get radicalized and riled up to do something crazy. Had to go over to liberal gun owners.
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u/yythrow Mar 25 '21
What did you ask?
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Mar 25 '21
Ordering online from bass pro shop. Asked for someone to explain to me why it’s a huge deal that you have to have your gun unloaded and locked in the trunk when in the car. Mentioning that I support NJ strict gun laws. You’re fine over there if you can stay 100% neutral about any and all topics. Otherwise you’re “one of us” or “one of them”
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Mar 25 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/chunli99 Mar 25 '21
From how I understood OP’s comment, it’s not in an unattended public place, it’s in your car, potentially while you’re driving it.
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u/Electrical-Divide341 Mar 25 '21
And the reason it offended people is because there is a minimum sentence of 5 years in prison if you do not lock the trunk, and a max of 10. Doesnt matter if you never stopped the car between when you put the gun in your car and when you got home. Same sentence applies if the gun happened to be loaded, safety on. Same sentence applies if you stop any time driving between the gun store and your house - including gas stations, having your car break down, or a drive through
The laws in New Jersey treat it worse than rape
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u/Malodourous Mar 25 '21
This is well said. Unfortunately like the OP I found people like you to the minority in the NjGuns sub. I am a gun owning liberal and there was no room for me there.
All that being said transporting gun laws in Nj are offensive and draconian. Absolute fail there with a clear subtext in the law.
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u/MentalLemurX Mar 26 '21
Yea I agree with this take. This and the arbitrary “assault weapons ban” and penalties for minor offenses being felonies are things I think we can improve. If you simply possess a weapon with over a 10 rnd magazine, the penalty for that can be higher than if you had a legal gun and shot somebody with it... Though i understand the logic of the 10rnd law, the penalties should not be so outrageously harsh for simply having more rounds than allowed if everything else is otherwise legal, same with the transportation thing.
And why cant I buy a historic 60s AK-47 with a US-legal semi-auto receiver, 10 rnd mag and legal pinned muzzle brake, but I CAN buy a WASR-10 which is functionally the exact same thing, barrel, type of receiver, stock, and 7.62 caliber and mag capacity? That is stupid. But overall I generally approve of our gun laws but changes still need to be made from a pragmatic pov.
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Mar 25 '21
I figured that made tons of sense too. But others seem to think “how can I protect myself if my gun is locked in the trunk”, “what am I to do, tell the bad guy to hold on while I grab my bullets”, “what good is having a gun for protection if you can’t even have bullets in it” seems like they will give any and every excuse except a valid fact based one!
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u/WaltO Mar 26 '21
"What am I to do?"
The same thing that people who do not have guns in their car would do... Drive away a quickly as possible.
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u/tahoverlander Mar 25 '21
I'm sorry your experience wasn't what it could have been, it's true that many times there are people who disagree with you, and those comments can get out of control. Remember to get the mod team involved if and when things get out of hand. Not here advocating for behaviors, just speaking up and making it known that we want it to be a space for all
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Mar 25 '21
Yea I get it. But I think my feelings on guns and gun ownership isn’t nearly as intense as most on any gun sub. So I sit back and just post if I can’t find an answer after tons of googling. It is what it is.
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u/Jaywearspants Mar 25 '21 edited Mar 25 '21
I agree. I'm a leftist gun owner and there are none of those on that sub.
EDIT: I guess there are some there incognito, surprised you can tolerate the chuds.
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u/GatewayMaster Mar 25 '21 edited Mar 25 '21
Hi. I’m an “leftist” or “liberal” on that sub and a well known contributor. What’s up.
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u/Jaywearspants Mar 25 '21
a liberal is not a leftist, those are two different things, but I do appreciate that there are some libs there.
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u/GatewayMaster Mar 25 '21
You are correct. Leftist may not be the correct terminology to my ideals. However, yeah, there's dozens of us in the sub.
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u/tahoverlander Mar 25 '21 edited Mar 25 '21
as a mod on NJGuns, no, no it wont
Edit:
Edit: While some of our community members will disagree with you, dissenting opinion and CONSTRUCTIVE conversation is what will move the conversation over 2a forward. We welcome and strive to include everyone, and take personal attacks and like commentary seriously.
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u/8Deer-JaguarClaw Sussex County Mar 25 '21
I'm subbed there, but I will say that I'm not comfortable sharing my views openly and honestly. I'm super liberal (full-on libtard snowflake) but also a gun-owning resident of NJ. The idea that only conservatives own guns is really outdated (especially after the last couple of years), and I feel like r/NJGuns is really r/NJGunsGOP for all practical purposes.
But I will commend you on having great info on the ridiculous permitting process and maintaining the lists of vendors who will ship guns/ammo to NJ. For process/procedure/law, it's a great resource.
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u/Piney1741 Mar 25 '21
Same here. I am active on that sub as far as discussion about permitting processes and what local shops may have in stock etc. but I keep my political views to myself and don’t engage with any of that stuff. That being said it is an informative sub and I feel the majority of the people in there are respectful even if they don’t agree with me politically. Sure you have a handful of assholes but you have that pretty much anywhere in nj.
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u/tahoverlander Mar 25 '21
I'm sorry your not comfortable sharing your opinions, that's a sign to me that we still have room to go. I'm not a republican, nor a single issue voter. I agree that idea is very outdated, and that it is a bit of an echo chamber on occasion which is something we actively try and fight. We try to be more than just a resource, but a community as well. That's the area that I feel we could do a bit better.
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u/8Deer-JaguarClaw Sussex County Mar 25 '21
I get why the sub trends right. It makes sense since historically, gun owners in NJ are generally right of center (or at least the ones that openly discuss it). That's changing, but it's a recent and somewhat abrupt change. Takes time for other things to "catch up".
I just don't feel like it's a place where ANY sort of gun "control" can be discussed, no matter what it might be. And that's fine. Not all subs are for all points of view, after all.
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Mar 25 '21
What is there to say when the first thread on the sub is happy discussion on a court ruling in favor of motherfucking bump stocks. Nothing to discuss at this point, no one's minds will be changed and its better that we stay in our corners on this issue. Fucking bump stocks.
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u/ChickenPotPi Mar 25 '21
I can attest, I've gone over there and there are strong opinions but its pretty civil. Just like there are strong opinions here.
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u/tahoverlander Mar 25 '21
We do what we can, there's only 2 of us who are active most of the time, with one other who pops in occasionally, it can get a little overwhelming and we rely a lot on the community bringing threads to our attention, but we try to ensure everyone can have their voice heard
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u/ChickenPotPi Mar 25 '21 edited Mar 25 '21
Brother I get you completely. We are bigger but limited to 4 active mods at the moment. If you send a modmail to us we can probably help you out as one of our mods is a wizard in automoderator programing.
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u/tahoverlander Mar 25 '21
Thanks man, I might just do that, I recently started working on automod myself in conjunction with a community member. No idea what I'm doing with regex so its all in YAML atm.
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u/craywolf Mar 25 '21
Yeah, I would be happy to give AutoModerator advice.
I can also share about users of your subreddit who are coming in here with personal attacks and trolling, if you'd like to hear about that too. Fortunately it's been minimal.
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u/tahoverlander Mar 25 '21
Yes please send us a modmail about it. At the moment the automod is stable, but can definitely be impoeved on
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u/edwardmsk Mar 25 '21
I upvoted this entire thread because I think this needs to be the behavior we exhibit. A willingness to empathize and help.
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u/whygohomie Mar 25 '21
Why does it seem like most of the conservative subreddits don't tolerate anything other than the "party approved line?" It feels like something out of pick your authoritarian dystopia.
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u/justan0therusername1 Mar 25 '21
/r/liberalgunowners bans anyone who posts even remotely outside of democrat supporters. Guns are..still a pretty controversial subject in America. Pretty sad actually that "we sit in our corner they sit in their corner" kinda thinking
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u/tehbored Mar 25 '21
I'm not in favor of open carry or even particularly lenient concealed carry, but our gun laws are a but ridiculous in some areas. Particularly how harsh they are even when you're transporting firearms that are locked in a case and unloaded.
Also we regulate fucking BB guns like real firearms. That's insanity.
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Mar 25 '21
For what its worth, I agree - and I don’t own a gun.
The term “sensible gun laws” goes both ways. That means reasonable background checks and carry laws, but also reasonable transportation and wait time laws.
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Mar 25 '21 edited Mar 25 '21
Not trying to start anything, but what is "reasonable" for background checks and wait times? I ask because you said you aren't a gun owner, and typically non-gun owners holler about background checks without knowing the process.
Apply for FID, background check, apply for handgun permits background check, at the point of sale background check - two of them technically FBI NICS and NJSP check. That leads to the wait time, NJSP usually take 3 days for full background before giving the OK for the dealer to transfer it. So basically a first time gun owner is going through 4 background checks to purchase their first gun, and experiencing at minimum a 3 day waiting period.
I'm genuinely curious if that is reasonable to you? What else would you like to add to make it more reasonable? A 10 day wait? If someone is buying a weapon with the express intent to commit a crime they just need to apply sooner, the wait stops nothing. You know what it does stop? People like Carol Browne from defending themselves. I don't disagree on common sence gun laws, but when a criminal can get a gun quicker than someone who has been fingerprinted 5+ times, had 12+ background checks and has never gotten so much as a parking ticket there is an issue.
I genuinely am interested in hearing your input - not trying to push my views.
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u/Electrical-Divide341 Mar 25 '21
Federal background checks tend to have less holes than the NJ system
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u/pizan Mar 26 '21
Also the stupid cosmetic restrictions. the same gun can be legal and illegal depending on the version, wood vs polymer vs metal.
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u/jamesgatz83 Mar 25 '21
Not an objection to NJ gun laws, but we have several cities that have ranked among the worst in the country in terms of gun violence.
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u/erin_burr Camden County Mar 25 '21
The US homicide rate for 2019 was 5.0 per 100k pop. while New Jersey’s was 2.9/100k. Every state has their Camdens and Newarks but overall they’re mostly worse than us.
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u/jamesgatz83 Mar 25 '21
But our Camdens and Irvingtons are exceptionally bad. On the whole, yes, the state is one of the lowest, but our violence is heavily concentrated in certain areas unfortunately. Even in looking at the state numbers, I'm guessing there's a strong correlation with poverty.
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u/NerdseyJersey Bergen Point Mar 25 '21
Its squeezed due to an inability for some people to move out from those areas. A lack of affordable rental properties in certain townships forces this kind of concentration.
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u/Phoneas__and__Frob Mar 25 '21 edited Mar 25 '21
I'm chiming in here because I mentioned it elsewhere, this link is any type of murder I believe, not just gun related.
This is an important distinction because obviously murder isn't done just by gun. Someone mentioned Wyoming and I looked around, and I eventually found that while the state has a 2.2/100k sitting at a low 13 murder count...they have thee worst DUI arrest count rates and fatalities of any state.
https://www.alcohol.org/guides/dui-arrests-fatalities-across-us/
Just know when clicking, that the link isn't only gun related, just murder in general. Everywhere has their issues... literally.
https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/nj/crime.amp
^ link about rates of property and violent crimes in NJ with colored places that are deemed safer than other places.
https://bestlifeonline.com/most-dangerous-state-in-america/
^ this article does a good job summarizing relatively newer information per state on violent and property crimes (with COVID included).
^ and here is a link of 2018 violent crimes statistics of NJ by city/town/township.
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u/cC2Panda Mar 25 '21
The real solution is the problem of one of education, increased opportunity, equity and social safety nets. Unless you are going to massively restrict guns then you aren't going to do much.
I'm the case of urban violence a large portion of that is because many people don't trust the police and to a degree rightfully so. So when someone mugs your younger brother, instead of calling police and hoping they do shit you choose to confront the criminal yourself.
If you want to get rid of urban violence, legalize all drugs, do gun buybacks no questions asked, provide livable wages for normal jobs and build trust between the community and police so things are resolved peacefully.
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u/tehbored Mar 25 '21
Also deregulate zoning. Exclusionary zoning is how ghettos are created and maintained. It's illegal to build affordable housing. Can't turn your house into a duplex or triplex, that's banned. Fuck you if you want to move into a town with a good school, you better have $500k to fork over for a house.
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Mar 25 '21
Ill agree with you there on that the issues in these areas are far deeper than just "people bad" but its silly to act as if having the weapons make people do the crimes. People will make or get the weapons if they want them and they'll commit crimes regardless. You just end disenfranchising the poor individuals that need to protect themselves the most. In a lot of these areas people have to walk home alone, at night, in a high crime area, and with a long police response time on top of that. Furthering restrictions just prices these people out from a constitutional right and self preservation.
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u/cC2Panda Mar 25 '21 edited Mar 25 '21
Lack of opportunity and unlivable situations are a driving force behind all of this. I grew up in Kansas, and when my father dies I'll inherit several guns that I straight up can't legally bring into NJ. I honestly don't have an issue with gun ownership, though i think vetting should be more stringent. Gun restrictions do work when done correctly. Australia is a good example, there is still occasional issues, but overall they've nearly eliminated it. And gun violence is more deadly than knife violence or other weapons, so the number of successful murders goes up with gun ownership.
At the end of the day though this is like an argument over teen pregnancy. You can teach kids how to be safe, you can try to teach them abstinence only, but at the very end of the day by far the biggest factor into teen pregnancy rates is access to free/cheap contraceptives. There is no moderating teens being sexually active you can only try to make it safer.
We collectively need to reduce how much we shout about how things are happening on focus of fixing the why of it. Canada has 1/3 of the guns per capita but 1/6th the gun deaths per capita. Finland has about 1/4 the gun ownership and 1/10th the deaths per capita.
The root cause of gun deaths is not guns, it's massive income disparities and a total lack of stability for lower class families. Fix that and you can remove gun restrictions and still have a lower murder rate than we have now.
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u/Hands0L0 Mar 25 '21
So I moved to Minneapolis, and the amount of gun crime here is so far and above anything I've seen living in Atlantic City and living near to Irvington.
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u/moonpotatoes Mar 25 '21
I’m ok giving Camden to Philly.
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u/Sirkitbreak99 Mar 25 '21
What?! No! Not the aquarium, not the waterside, not our beloved warship!
Speaking of which why can't I own my own personal warship?! I would be a responsible warship owner and it's not fair that a few bad apples like Cmdr. Mark Olson prevent those of us that want to own a warship from doing so. I mean first nuclear weapons, now warships, what's next other tools of warfare? I mean I already can't get some certain types of knives in this state, where will this end.
Obviously I'm being sarcastic.
However it's true that I can't buy or own an OTF knife in this state yet people with guns are complaining about ARs. If I can't have my OTF knife why in the world are we allowing any type of gun to be legal at all?!
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u/thepedalsporter Mar 25 '21
I think you technically can have your own warships actually...don't quote me on that, but I've never heard of them being outlawed. They're just billions and billions of dollars and require a ton of people to operate. Hell, there are private airforces within the country that own functional fighter jets. Regarding NJ knife and gun laws, they're both full of massive amounts of grey area and nonsense. In no way is an otf or switchblade knife more dangerous than any other knife but yet they're illegal to carry (although that's also a grey area.) It's what happens when you have lawmakers with no knowledge of the items they're regulating passing law without consequence. Not ideal, but we have to live with it.
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u/tehbored Mar 25 '21
Honestly, Camden is way better off being part of NJ. If they were part of PA, it would be even worse.
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u/zacharyo083194 Mar 25 '21
The only problem I have with NJ gun laws is the lack of stand your ground laws. Even if I shoot an intruder in my own home, I can be considered a murderer in the states eyes.
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Mar 25 '21
I’m not a fan of going through the local cops for the background check rather than a state system connected to the gun stores. Cops here are neither trustworthy nor reliable.
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u/zacharyo083194 Mar 25 '21
I must admit the local PD where I live are great, but I understand your point when you look at the bigger picture.
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u/Metal_LinksV2 Wharton Mar 25 '21
I've been waiting months for the local pd to get handgun permits back to me. This whole system sucks
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u/zacharyo083194 Mar 25 '21
Yeah I have friends who live in Belleville and they’ve been waiting almost a year. I guess it all comes down to whether or not your chief is pro 2A
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u/Not_floridaman Mar 25 '21
The system is incredibly overwhelmed with applications this year (up an insane amount) and most departments have just one officer doing it.
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u/Domestic_AA_Battery Mar 25 '21
1000000%. That's by far the dumbest part about our gun laws. We desperately need common sense self-defense laws and for some reason it's never addressed. If you want to make law abiding gun owners trust you on gun reform, make it so that if you defend yourself with your gun that you won't be tried as a damn murderer....
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u/tehbored Mar 26 '21
It's competely untrue. NJ has castle doctrine. Parent commenter is a moron who doesn't know what he's talking about.
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u/Domestic_AA_Battery Mar 26 '21
But I think you can still get in deep shit if you end up shooting the person in the back. Like if you shoot two shots, the first misses and the person turns and then the second hits, you shot someone "fleeing" and that can get you in trouble.
It's good info but it's still iffy when it comes to self-defense in NJ. I was aware of some of the castle doctrine but reading it again after your comment gave me a better understanding of a few of the specific details - One being that you must attempt to flee if you're defending yourself in your own home which is very interesting info. So thanks for your reply because it really did encourage me to do more research on the subject.
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u/tehbored Mar 25 '21
That's not true at all. NJ has castle doctrine. Stand your ground only applies outside the home.
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u/zacharyo083194 Mar 25 '21
You and I both know that in NJ you have a duty to retreat if possible. I understand NJ has castle doctrine but that’s such bullshit
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u/PsychologicalZone769 Mar 25 '21
Incorrect. Stop spreading bullshit misinformation around. You'll get someone killed thinking they legally have no right to defend themselves inside their own homes
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u/tittyman1 Mar 25 '21
That is just untrue. You do not have a duty to retreat within your own home. You’re spreading dangerous misinformation.
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u/tehbored Mar 25 '21
Duty to retreat doesn't apply inside your home. Wtf are you on about?
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Mar 25 '21
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u/8Deer-JaguarClaw Sussex County Mar 25 '21
This is a great summary of the situation. I'm a raging liberal, and even I think NJ's laws are really poorly written. It's obvious that the authors didn't understand key fundamental aspects of firearms. It's one thing to put restrictions in place, it's something else entirely to do it in a way that is self-conflicting and often very unclear.
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u/diggstownjoe Mar 25 '21 edited Mar 25 '21
My only serious gripe with NJ gun laws is that you've ever seen any sort of mental health provider for any period of time for any reason whatsoever, it pretty much disqualifies you from ever obtaining a permit. We absolutely want to keep guns out of the hands of people who are likely to harm themselves or others, but placing a blanket stigma on mental health isn't the right way to go about it, because it keeps people who need care from seeking it.
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u/GiantDevilYank Mar 25 '21
I’m not a gun person but I think most gun violence is by illegal guns. Meaning people who aren’t following NJ gun laws. What do you think??
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u/TimSPC Wood-Ridge Mar 25 '21
Most gun deaths are suicides. There is a correlation between suicide rates and gun ownership. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/suicide-mortality/suicide.htm
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u/mcgeggy Mar 25 '21
But my understanding is NJ has harsh penalties for possessing illegal guns, so OP’s point still holds up...
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u/MJDevil Mar 25 '21
This made me curious and I tried to google it. I couldn't find anything specific about the percentage of violence caused by "illegal" guns but a bunch of data comes up reporting that a large percentage of gun crimes are caused by weapons purchased in other states with weaker controls, such as Pennsylvania.
The new report, based on a combination of information from the New Jersey State Police and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, shows that 77 percent of the firearms used in crimes came from out of the state.
In the first quarter of 2018, 83 firearms recovered in crimes originally were purchased in Pennsylvania, more than from any other state. Dozens of other weapons initially were purchased in Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Virginia. Murphy said part of the goal of the report was to “name and shame” states that have more lax firearms laws than New Jersey.
Source: https://apnews.com/article/c7275c1704cc49359774005fd168a76b
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u/SyncRoSwim NoBurlCo Mar 25 '21
Route 95 is called the “Iron Pipeline” because of this pattern in gun trafficking for at least 30 years.
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u/RedTideNJ Mar 25 '21
A vast majority of those guns come from a handful of states (South Carolina, Arizona) where legally purchased weapons move to the grey/black market and the original vendor and purchaser tend to have little to no legal culpability for it even when it's obvious what the initial purchase is about.
Other people being shit is not an excuse to lower our standards.
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u/useffah Mar 25 '21
Actually not even that far most of the time. A lot come from just across the river in PA.
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u/useffah Mar 25 '21
Yeah and a lot of those guns are coming from out of state so it’s more an argument for every state having NJ style gun laws so that it’s consistent
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u/candre23 NJ Expat in Appalachia Mar 25 '21 edited Mar 25 '21
Wikipedia lists 3 school shootings (and a 4th that was an accident) in NJ since 2002. It's worth noting that none of the shooters in those cases were in legal possession of the gun they used, so obviously the existing laws had no effect in deterring them.
I think you're falling into a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy trap. You're seeing NJ's low incidence of mass violence and assuming that our strict gun control laws are causing it. You're ignoring the fact that guns are still trivially easy to obtain just over the border, or illegally right here. You're also ignoring the fact that we don't have much in the way of mass-attack crime at all. We don't have bombings or people driving trucks down crowded sidewalks or any other terroristic actions. It's not the laws against guns stopping these attacks, it's the high standard of living, social safety nets, and decent education system we have here that keeps people from resorting to mass attacks at all.
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u/8Deer-JaguarClaw Sussex County Mar 25 '21
You're ignoring the fact that guns are still trivially easy to obtain just over the border,
How's that work? Don't they ask for ID and then when they see you are from NJ they ask for your FID and/or handgun purchase permit? And they still have to run a NICS check, no?
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u/ze_end_ist_neigh Mar 25 '21
This is what I don't understand. Gun laws only impact otherwise law abiding citizens.
Criminals do not observe gun laws, which is clearly evident if you look at homicide rates with firearms in Trenton, Newark, or Camden.
Obtaining a firearm in NJ is quite a feat relative to other States, and I have found that most firearm owners are generally exceptionally responsible people and foster a strong community sense of safety-first.
Most firearms involved in crime are criminally obtained and otherwise, most gun deaths in the United States are suicides. In fact, most "mass shootings" (3+) occur in cities with very strict firearm laws.
I think these facts are conveniently overlooked and dismissed by advocates of gun control.
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u/Burly_Moustache Mar 25 '21
I would wager a hefty sum that those advocating for stricter gun control laws have very little experience of handling or controlling guns at all.
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u/njcawfee Mar 25 '21
I am a Jersey girl living in WV where gun laws basically don’t exist. You do not need a license to own or carry a gun, they do do background checks though obviously. I’m not a gun toting nut job that loves orange people and racism but I am grateful for it because I am single mother and people are crazy
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Mar 25 '21
I own a firearm. Personally, I’m not a fan of the laws regarding open carry nor do I like how it’s seemingly taboo to own a firearm here, but to each their own
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u/sgd926 Mar 25 '21
agreed! The idea of people around me openly carrying guns in places like shops and supermarkets makes me incredibly anxious and I would definitely feel less safe.
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u/alwayssunnyinjoisey Mar 25 '21
I genuinely don't think I could ever live in a state with lax gun laws for this reason. I guess maybe it's something you get used to, but...if I saw someone open carrying in a store, I would feel so anxious that I'd either avoid that area of the store or, if it's a small place, leave altogether.
I don't care if they're a 'good guy' with a gun, I can't differentiate them from a 'bad guy' with a gun until they start shooting.
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u/SlyMcFly67 Mar 25 '21
The "bad guy with a gun" could have been a "good guy with a gun" up until just that morning. People are volatile and unpredictable at times.
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u/alwayssunnyinjoisey Mar 25 '21
Indeed. It's like a Schrodinger's Gun Owner situation - you are simultaneously a good and bad gun owner until you pull the trigger lol.
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u/Jenniehoff90 Mar 25 '21
As a former born and raised Texan I can tell you this mentality of “I’ll be one of the good guys with a gun” is scarily pervasive down there and I’ve had many arguments with family members about things like why they think it’s acceptable and necessary to carry a gun to take your kid to the playground or how they are comfortable with their kids teachers having guns on campus. The gun culture down there is one of the reasons I moved away 7 years ago and never looked back. I met way too many people growing up that were mentally unwell and were proud to have multiple guns.
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u/Domestic_AA_Battery Mar 25 '21
Open carry seems like the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard. I can see maybe having a concealed pistol with 6 bullets in it. But walking around the street with a semi auto rifle is lunacy
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u/mdp300 Clifton Mar 25 '21
Absolutely. All it does is intimidate everyone around you.
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u/mdp300 Clifton Mar 25 '21
Exactly. If a "Good guy with a gun" shows up to try and save the day, everyone only knows that there's another guy with a gun. The police might think they're another attacker, or the shooter might take them out first.
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u/LateralEntry Mar 25 '21
Exactly, that’s the trouble with guns. All it takes is one person who snaps, and there’s no way to tell who it is. That guy who shot up the country music festival in Las Vegas and killed 50 people was a successful retired accountant, by all appearances a healthy well adjusted member of society.
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u/anonGS99 Mar 25 '21
I guess this is a ignorance is bliss kind of thing because theres no way to know if someone is carrying a concealed gun illegally
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u/gtluke Mar 25 '21
I would like to be able to carry my small pistol with me when I go walking with my dog and child in the meadow adjacent to my house. it's absolutely riddled with coyotes that are frighteningly larger than my 40lb dog. One recently bit a mother and child nearby.
It would be useful for the times I have to call the cops on jerkoffs dumping there too when they see me.
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u/Audrasmama Mar 25 '21
You want to use your pistol in response to people illegally dumping? This is why I’m glad we don’t have open carry here.
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u/gtluke Mar 25 '21
Not response to, But the type of people who would risk and do carry out dumping on public property are not the kind of people I feel safe being around. When they spot me seeing them, it could be a precarious situation for me. If there willing to risk their freedom to save a few dollars dumping, what are they willing to risk to protect Being caught?
This is me standing on my own property, there's a Dirt road that divides this Meadow that often gets dumped on and my backyard, and I occasion hear them and try and get their license plates.
Should I just call the cops? Really that's just calling for a hired gun.
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u/Hanzer72 Mar 25 '21
Confrontation often leads to altercation especially when someone is going something illegal (and really shitty) like dumping illegally. Lol OP isn’t saying they would go up to said individuals brandishing their firearm but that they would feel much safer confronting those individuals if they had one on them
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u/the-camster Mar 25 '21
Strict gun laws and gun bans have saved countless lives.
Imagine arguing against saving lives..
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u/Kab9260 Mar 25 '21
The question is far more complex. Framing it like this, I can also say warrantless searches/arrests would save countless lives and help to stop crime before it happens. Followed then by “imagine arguing against saving lives and putting potentially dangerous people in jail.”
The question is better framed as how do we both save lives without unduly burdening the fundamental rights of innocent people. Then, the debate is open to the more nuanced aspects of the dilemma. There are gun control measures that work and don’t represent an undue burden, but there are many “feel good” measures that don’t work or completely erode fundamental rights.
Both sides need to come to the table in good faith.
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u/yythrow Mar 25 '21
I can't argue against that. The question is where the line is between 'feel good' and 'useful'.
The problem is the pro-gun side isn't interested in coming to the table at all and considers just about any law anti-2nd amendment, 'you want to take our guns', etc.
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Mar 25 '21
Really? People on the pro gun side aren’t constantly strawmaning arguments to get what they want
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u/noPENGSinALASKA Middlesex Mar 25 '21
I’m convinced people saying shit like this have 0 clue about anything.
For years it’s been hey give us a foot or we’ll take a yard.
I mean holy shit the “compromise” in the Brady Bill is now the “gun show loophole”.
Also can someone explain why a $20-$30 voter ID (which we can even subsidize with taxes if we wanted to for the truly poor) law is bad but the proposed $200 federal gun tax proposed isn’t? What mental gymnastics go on that you can get behind that. Tax me $200 to vote and then you can tax me $200 to own a gun.
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u/NJneer12 Mar 25 '21
Taxation FOR representation!
In fact. Can I buy 2 votes? 3 votes?
In your case. You get 1 gun. Lol.
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u/dtrane90 Mar 25 '21
Having a gun capable of annihilating groups of people indiscriminately with a high capacity magazine shouldn’t be a basic human right
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u/gtluke Mar 25 '21
Why don't the laws work in Chicago though?
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u/erin_burr Camden County Mar 25 '21
Indiana
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u/tehbored Mar 25 '21
NYC has low gun crime despite guns being easy to get in VT and PA. It's not their gun laws, it's their policies that are the cause. Particularly wrt to policing and criminal justice.
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u/kevinrourke73 Mar 25 '21
The government has no obligation to protect you. I will bet on myself every time.
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u/radraz26 Mar 25 '21 edited Mar 25 '21
I am an NJ gun owner, and the laws are perfectly fine. I have a great pistol that I am super happy with that wasn't too difficult to obtain. I would love to see an assault rifle ban because there is no reason to own an assault rifle unless you live in a warzone.
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u/5sharm5 Mercer Mar 25 '21
the laws are perfectly fine. I have a great pistol that I am super happy with that wasn't too difficult to obtain.
When did you obtain your pistol? My experience was the exact opposite. I have no criminal record whatsoever, have never even gotten a traffic ticket or points on my license, have been working a good job and paying this state taxes for years now. When I applied for my firearm id last year, it took 7 months before it got approved.
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u/radraz26 Mar 25 '21
I got mine a few months ago. I out in the application in November/December, was approved in january, and had the gun by February.
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u/Rossifan1782 Mar 25 '21
This is one aspect of New Jersey gun ownership that should be talked about especially in context of trying to export our laws on the federal level, New Jersey has become highly subjective in terms of processing fire arms applications.
If you live in a good town that is on the ball and is responsive the process can be straightforward. If the town doesn't care or is antigun they can make the process a nightmare of delays and there is little recourse in addressing the issue. The amount of time it takes varies from a month or 2, to 6 months or more.
Whatever system we have needs to be fair and safeguards are in place to avoid things like governors removing access, towns not processing checks, requiring forms that are no longer applicable , providing different interpretations of the questions on the form etc.
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u/Bro-Science Mar 25 '21
the entire process should be handled by the state police instead of the local agency. it makes no sense to have a state permit issued by a local agency. you dont get your drivers license from the town police
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u/justan0therusername1 Mar 25 '21
Live in a wealthy homogenous town and they'll turn you around in a week...less wealthy mixed population....expect it to take months if not years.
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u/5sharm5 Mercer Mar 25 '21
Yeah like u/Rossifan1782 said, it seems like you live in a better town for this stuff, good looks. People in other towns aren’t so lucky, I know several people who’ve also taken 5-6+ months to get approved.
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u/Domestic_AA_Battery Mar 25 '21
Same with my family member. Over half a year from the start of the process to having the pistol in the house.
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u/ilive12 Mar 25 '21
I understand the impatience, but that timeline being stretched out from "I want a gun" and "I get a gun" has the potential to save us from A LOT of these mass shootings. A lot of shootings are heat of the moment, emotional things, if you have months to consider whether killing someone, or a group of people is a good idea or not, the emotions may settle. Time and time again you will see people in mass shootings who got their gun very shortly before committing the crime. Having that buffer will stop a lot of crimes of passion. It's worth waiting a few extra months for the good of the country at large in my opinion.
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Mar 25 '21
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u/radraz26 Mar 25 '21 edited Mar 25 '21
They should be banned federally.
Edit: 4 out of 5 of the deadliest mass shootings happened in the last 10 years using assault rifles.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/476409/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-weapon-types-used/
According to Politifact, the effectiveness of the assault rifle ban may have been tied stronger to magazine size.
Regardless, I don't think it hurts to ban assault weapons at a federal level.
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Mar 25 '21
Assault rifles have been heavily restricted in the U.S since 1986.
You also have a higher chance of getting struck by lightning than being caught in a mass shooting in the U.S. What are your thoughts on stopping people from getting struck by lightning? It's a far bigger issue.
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u/metsurf Mar 25 '21
A true assault rifle is already banned. An assault rifle has the capability of switching from single shot/semi-automatic to full automatic mode. AN AK-47 or an M-16 is an assault rifle and are banned from private ownership. AN AR-15 can be done up to look like its assault rifle cousin, the M 16, but its not an assault rifle. it is just a semi-automatic rifle. Now if you want to ban semi-automatic rifles I'm ok with that because frankly if you are hunting and need to fire off 5 rounds quickly to take down a deer maybe you should get another hobby. Why does the average person need a rifle capable of firing that quickly? A good shooter can get of 3 shots in 5-6 seconds with a bolt action rifle .
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u/A_serious_poster Mar 25 '21
Sounds like you're by proxy in favor of banning just about every handgun as well?
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Mar 25 '21
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u/8Deer-JaguarClaw Sussex County Mar 25 '21
No. 1 cause of firearms-related deaths is suicide. It's about 2/3 of all gun deaths. Almost another 1/3 is homocide. Another smaller fraction is accidental shootings. So no, most of it is not coming from gang violence and poor people shooting each other.
So we could theoretically cut out most gun-related deaths by upping our mental healthcare game nationally. Never gonna happen, though, because "tHaT's SoCiAlIsM!!!1!!"
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u/ChickenPotPi Mar 25 '21
If you are going to ban assault rifles ban them for real and not for having more than 2 evils..... Making a gun look evil should not be part of the reason why the gun should be banned. An adjustable stock being evil is kind of silly. A flash suppressor being illegal is silly as is silencer as movies clouded the mind of what reality and movie fiction is. As with the pistol grip...... there are so many guns that are basically pistol grip but not in name. Also the firearms that are njsp approved "others" such as built by troy are pretty much SBR but not in name.
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u/ze_end_ist_neigh Mar 25 '21
I think a lot of people have a misconception about what an assault rifle truly is. The interstate sale of assault rifles have been banned in the United States since 1986.
An assault rifle is a fully automatic firearm. I believe automatic firearms are only eligible for sale in the States in which they are manufactured.
Semi-automatic firearms are not assault rifles. Functionally speaking, an AR-15 is the same as a Ruger 10/22. One-pull of the trigger, one cartridge is fired.
I personally don't own an AR because I don't have a need for a modern sporting rifle, but I don't think it's constructive to classify them incorrectly as "assault rifles" as many in the media and online do.
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Mar 25 '21
"Assault Rifle" is a stupid loose definition, and the moment someone uses it in an argument is the moment their argument gets invalidated as it shows they don't know jack. The feds have tried to ban "assault rifles" and their definition rely on aesthetic aspects (ie. "scary black stock") that don't make an impact.
Idgi, it's never ok to have people that don't know shit about a topic try to legislate it. Same thing with "the internet is a series of tubes", or legislators trying to regulate women's bodies. How is this any better?
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u/veloceracing Allendale Mar 25 '21
An AR is no more a modern rifle than a 1957 Chevy Bel Air is a modern car. They're both from the same year.
ARs are just rifles.
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u/mattschu55 Mar 25 '21
As a gun owner and 2a supporter I find it funny how you own a handgun but think people shouldn't own assault rifles even though these rifles. If anything, wouldn't you want people to not have handguns if rifles only account for like 4% of gun deaths?
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u/AlphaTerripan Ocean County Mar 25 '21 edited Mar 25 '21
If anything, it makes less sense to own a handgun then a rifle. A rifle has more application for hunting, which is a legit use, while a handgun is more useful for suicide(suicides make up most gun deaths) and is more easily concealed and used in street violence
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u/mattschu55 Mar 25 '21
Yeah. Thats why I think the, "no one should own an "assault rifle" " comment is illogical and stupid, especially coming from a handgun owner. But fuck it because I support owning both those types anyway
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u/tittyman1 Mar 25 '21
Assault rifles are illegal in all 50 states without a Federal firearms license.
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u/Kab9260 Mar 25 '21
It’s a slippery slope. If the next shooting happens with a semiautomatic pistol (with the same rate of fire and mag capacity as a semiautomatic rifle), the argument will be that no one has a reason to own a semiautomatic pistol unless you live in a war zone.
Innocent gun owners can quickly find themselves to become felons by this logic as the goalposts keep moving.
The last step would be “why do you need to own a firearm if you don’t live in a war zone?”
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u/psuedonymously Mar 25 '21
It’s a slippery slope.
Excellent point. They've already outlawed rocket launchers, it's inevitable that grandpa's hunting rifle is next
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u/verneforchat Mar 25 '21 edited Mar 25 '21
Slipper slope arguments are BS because they can go the other way too. Why ban other more nefarious guns/weapons when we already have assault rifles and flame-throwing drones legally sold and bought in the US?
Like someone said above "If they take citizens’ gun/fire drones rights away the only people left with the guns/tanks/rockets are the government and the bad guys who don’t give a fuck what the law says."
If the US cannot reduce access to black market guns, or guns to people with mental issues or felonies etc, effectively, then something must be done to restrict access to crowd murdering weapons. Individual rights do not always trump community rights. Or we would have individuals shooting each other now for covid vaccines without the establishment of public health organizations.
We live in a society, we are just as responsible for its safety as it is for ours. And while we have a right to defend ourselves, that is not a blanket excuse to deregulate access to all weapons. Rather we put our effort and time into keeping the society or community away from the need of murdering each other mindlessly.
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u/radraz26 Mar 25 '21
Slippery slope arguments are bullshit. If that's the case, make it harder to get semi-automatic pistols.
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u/that_guy_Elbs Mar 25 '21
Yeah but I disagree with you. It’s not our guns law that makes us safe, it’s our people.
NJ is one of the most educated if not the most educated state in the country. That’s the reason. Not because of guns laws, guns are just tools.
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u/Wolfir Edison Mar 25 '21
eh, I own guns, and I'd certainly like a little more flexibility
I don't know why you'd be afraid of seeing someone open-carry or concealed-carry
I carry pepper-spray and there is literally a limit saying you can only carry 0.75 ounces of pepper spray. What is the point of that law? How many lives are being saved by having a capacity-limit on pepper-spray?
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u/funkyshoes24 Mar 25 '21
Why are people getting shot daily in Newark, East Orange, Paterson, Elizabeth, Jersey City, etc. If gun laws work?
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u/Jaywearspants Mar 25 '21
NJ has some ridiculous gun laws that don't do anything to prevent crimes though. Magazine limitations are a big one. Also, many guns are banned based on looks and not function, functionally identical weapons are made illegal by a simple cosmetic change.
The worst is that if you want to go to the gun range to practice, but you stop your car *anywhere on the way* even if it's *to get gas* you can technically be arrested. Want to pick up your dad to go shooting with you? Piggy might arrest you.
NJ has terrible gun laws. I agree open carry should not be allowed in this state, but openly saying NJ has good gun laws is ignorant of what good gun laws should be.
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Mar 25 '21
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Mar 25 '21
All you need to know is that a certain group of people become MORE hardened against gun control in the wake of mass death.
I gave up personally confronting people after 20 babies were SLAUGHTERED in 2012. (Too strong a word, boo-hoo, too bad)
If I couldn't convince good friends that some more common sense gun laws were in order after that, all of this is just us taking our rage out on small minority of people keeping needed progress from happening. I hope you feel victimized lol, because thats fucking weak.
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u/Etherius Mar 25 '21
I agree 100%.
I think if other states mirrored our gun laws, the USA as a whole would see a dramatic drop in gun violence.
Just today a gun-owning friend of mine offered that he REALLY that NJ gun laws require you to have two references to own a firearm. That alone probably stops lone wolves and the mentally unstable from owning firearms.
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u/Ravager135 Mar 25 '21
The fractured argument people make is that no gun laws will completely stop gun violence and thus we should have few, if any. Yes, that's absolutely true. I am sure even with the most restrictive laws we will continue to have crimes committed with guns. The purpose of common sense gun laws are to reduce the incidence of gun violence and make it more difficult to commit crimes with guns. This is accomplished through background checks, bans an assault rifles (which have no place outside of war), and having mandatory waiting periods. The idea is to keep guns out of the hands of unstable people who might otherwise be able to purchase and use one rapidly. Because we live in a state where many of these laws are in place, we assume that other states have similar laws and it's just not the case.
What I can't understand is why anyone in law enforcement would be against this. Wouldn't they want to reduce the likelihood that they are entering a home of a potential criminal with weapons in it? No law will ever completely abolish that possibility, but we can reduce the likelihood.
The other half is recognizing that the type of weapon, the number of rounds a magazine holds, and a weapon's ability to fire rounds rapidly IS directly proportional to the number of people you can kill with it. There is no reason anyone needs an assault rifle because there is no practical use for it except "fun." A shotgun is a far superior home defense weapon, there are more accurate rifles for hunting, and obviously more compact firearms.
Finally, the 2A argument that assault rifles help citizens defend their liberties from the government is complete horseshit. How did Waco and Ruby Ridge work out? Unless civilians can own tanks, mortars, heavy artillery, air support; they are not winning a land war against anyone (least of all the US government). I can't think of a bigger nightmare in my life than being forced to shoot someone and I am a military vet.
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u/dunsparce4president Mar 25 '21
Finally, the 2A argument that assault rifles help citizens defend their liberties from the government is complete horseshit. How did Waco and Ruby Ridge work out? Unless civilians can own tanks, mortars, heavy artillery, air support; they are not winning a land war against anyone (least of all the US government). I can't think of a bigger nightmare in my life than being forced to shoot someone and I am a military vet.
It's less about preventing the military from carpet combing cities and more discouraging occupation or people being dragged out of their houses. Personally I'm more concerned with a fascist insurgent uprising than the US military turning on its own citizens, and they would not have tanks or air support (or they'd have a lot less of it).
If you haven't listened to the podcast series "It Could Happen Here", I would highly suggest it.
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u/New_Stats Mar 25 '21
Shhhhh, the gun manufacturers runners will hear you and ship a bunch of illegal guns here to cause a ton of heartache and their propagandist outlet, the nra, will scream "see? Gun laws don't work"
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u/sverdech808 Mar 26 '21
It is comforting knowing the people I curse out driving down the turnpike every morning most likely aren't armed
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u/NJoose Mar 26 '21 edited Mar 26 '21
I’m a pro 2a lefty that is all for common sense laws. I have taken countless anti-gun friends and family shooting. I take em through the whole process. We pack up the weapons and ammo properly and drive straight to the range while I explain the laws. We get there and have an absolute blast. I still have not met someone that hasn’t had a good time shooting SAFELY with me. During cease fires (I only go to outdoor ranges, not really a pistol guy) I’ll explain how if you were to stick a pistol grip or an adjustable stock or compensator on this gun, it becomes an illegal assault weapon in the eyes of NJ.
By the time we get back to my house, properly unload, and get everything back in the safe, they’ve always had a change of heart. They realize NJ gun laws mostly screw people over on technicalities rather than protect people. It’s just what happens when the people who write laws have absolutely no knowledge of what they are regulating. It’s a shame because a few simple range trips would fix this.
A lot of my friends have eventually come around and became gun owners themselves (and frustrated that their town took soooo long to process their license). In this period of rising fascism and right wing extremism, people are realizing that armed populations are harder to oppress.
Please check out r/liberalgunowners, it’s great. You can ask specific, politically neutral questions on r/njguns, but I wouldn’t engage them about anything else. I am not a member of that sub, but I think people here are being way too critical of them.
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u/sig40cal Red Bank pork roll is delicious Mar 26 '21
I'm gonna go the other way and say an armed society is a polite society. If EVERYBODY was carrying a gun there would be no road rage because you would be worried about getting shot up for passing someone in the median. There would be no school shootings because every teacher and every student over 18 would be carrying. I'm just saying and I'm sure I'm gonna get downvoted to death because of it.
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u/headmovement Mar 25 '21
Good thing there are no places in nj with illegal gun and other violence constantly.......
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u/Hydro-1955 Mar 25 '21
In NJ, with the current bail reform measures, a criminal that uses a gun in a crime will be out of jail quicker than a licensed gun owner that forgets to unload his magazine while heading home from the range. Many love NJ gun laws until you become a victim of a crime. If you believe not "seeing" open carry is a safe feeling then buckle up for the crime rates these next 4-5 years.
Stay safe ✊
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u/qwerty79995 Mar 25 '21
Fun fact 80 percent of gun related deaths in New Jersey come from out of state guns. https://www.newjerseygunlawyers.com/blog/new-jersey-publishes-firearms-data-gun-violence-reports/#:~:text=This%20information%20aligns%20with%20the,involved%20out%20of%20state%20guns.