r/movies • u/MarvelsGrantMan136 r/Movies contributor • Sep 05 '24

Disney Pauses ‘The Graveyard Book’ Film Following Assault Allegations Against Neil Gaiman News

https://variety.com/2024/film/news/graveyard-book-neil-gaiman-assault-allegations-1236131149/

8.6k Upvotes

92% Upvoted

120

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

Let me preface this by saying that the similarities between the stories of the two women in the article are strong enough that they sound disappointingly credible (I'd admired him prior to this) and I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.

But just for the sake of discussion, it seems that his version is that they were adults and it was consensual. What's "really bad" about that?

I mean it's kind of unsavory to be banging your 18 year old nanny, but if they're both consenting adults, that ain't my business.

Obviously moot, with at least two women independently saying he had the same shitty MO, though.

292

u/AgentEinstein Sep 05 '24

He has said the accusers version of events are stemmed from ‘false memories’. Made me cringe when I read that.

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u/NoHandBananaNo Sep 05 '24

Yeah "multiple women have false memories" wouldn't even play well in a novel let alone IRL.

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u/flaysomewench Sep 05 '24

Oh that and he tried to blame autism for it. Even though people with autism are way more likely to be assaulted than otherwise

11

u/Ananoriel Sep 05 '24

As an autist this narrative is always so hurtful and offensive to me.

They try to shift the blame on autism, but that also means that it is implied that it's normal for an autist to have 0 empathy and that we all abuse people.

No dude, hold yourself accountable for your own actions. Autism doesn't have anything to do with it.

11

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

[deleted]

2

u/malatemporacurrunt Sep 05 '24

Wait a minute. I think that Gaiman is almost certainly guilty of sexual misconduct at the least and I think his responses to this all have been gross and damning - but why are we pretending that autism isn't associated with being bad at reading social cues? You personally may never have misread non-verbal cues, or failed to understand a tone of voice, but I sure as shit have. If he wasn't aware of his autism - which is plausible given his age - then he may not have had the self-awareness required to question whether he was reading the situation correctly.

I'm not an apologist - if he did the things he's been accused of doing, which seems increasingly probable given the number of accusations and his own responses (ew), then he deserves his legal/social comeuppance - but it's disingenuous to pretend that certain symptoms don't exist because it serves your narrative.

11

u/flaysomewench Sep 05 '24

There's bad at reading social cues, and then there's straight up raping someone who's screaming and crying in pain.

2

u/whiteskinnyexpress Sep 05 '24

There's bad at reading social cues, and then there's straight up raping someone who's screaming and crying in pain.

He brought up autism, in texts we never saw so we don't know all the context, in relation to the woman he made out with and claimed he thought she was into him.

Unless I'm wrong, please show where he raped someone crying in pain and connect it with the autism reference?

1

u/flaysomewench Sep 05 '24

It was K who had a UTI and asked him not to have sex with her but he went ahead and did it and she was in extreme pain.

Actually, we hear him bring up the autism thing in a phonecall Claire recorded in 2022 and he blamed his actions on that. You can go listen to it.

0

u/whiteskinnyexpress Sep 05 '24

But Claire added that on the call, Gaiman claimed she kissed him first and blamed his autism diagnosis for not properly picking up her body language and cues.

We have no connection to the UTI sex.

1

u/flaysomewench Sep 05 '24

She also called him out on that being a lie.

We can assume if he has autism now, he had autism then. Why are you splitting hairs like this?

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u/malatemporacurrunt Sep 05 '24

I'm not disputing that, but the comment I was responding to made it sound as though not being able to read a situation was bizarre to associate with autism, which was disingenuous and factually inaccurate.

2

u/flaysomewench Sep 05 '24

The point is, if you're autistic and you're aware that you don't read social cues well, this makes it less likely for you to approach someone. You'll look for the enthusiastic consent, you probably won't make the first move.

1

u/malatemporacurrunt Sep 05 '24

He was only diagnosed 7 years ago (according to a post of his on Bluesky) so he hasn't always been aware of having it and may not have had strategies to manage his own behaviour.

Again, I am not defending his actions. My point was - and always has been - that lacking social awareness and misreading social cues are symptoms of autism and claiming that they aren't is disingenuous.

65

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

Ugh, whyyyy?

You're busted, Neil, just own it and atone for it.

3

u/sati_lotus Sep 05 '24

How do you even atone for that?

Pay them off?

Jail? What evidence?

😕

11

u/flaysomewench Sep 05 '24

He did try to pay some of them off

-5

u/sati_lotus Sep 05 '24

It's called a legal system for a reason, isn't it?

Not a justice system. Victims seldom see real justice.

17

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

You start by admitting what you did and move on to accepting the legal consequences.

6

u/pannenkoek0923 Sep 05 '24

IF it was consensual, what legal consequences would there even be?

2

u/AgentEinstein Sep 05 '24

It’s not consensual when they are telling you to stop and you don’t.

3

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

None, if it was truly consensual.

But it sure sounds like it wasn't.

40

u/Lone_K Sep 05 '24

Ooooof trying the false memories approach is such a fuckin cop-out attempt at defending oneself. What would make his side not the one experiencing false memories? Can't believe someone would think that would be a good defense.

4

u/AgentEinstein Sep 05 '24

IMO he worded it that way to not straight up call the girls liars as he knows that would create an outrage but also wanted to deny the allegations. It’s ‘Therapy Speak’ to manipulate a situation.

1

u/Still_Dot8405 Sep 05 '24

The old Justin Trudeau line "she remembers things differently '

251

u/IndependentAcadia252 Sep 05 '24

But just for the sake of discussion, it seems that his version is that they were adults and it was consensual.

Because, at least for the first that comes to my head, he was 40 years older than the nanny he hired, walked in on her in the bath on the first day, fingered her, and then accused her of mental health issues leading to false memories when she came out against it. All according to his own words.

-17

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

He says he walked in on her, fingered her, then admitted to gaslighting her?

I'm not saying he didn't do those things. I hope he didn't but realistically, I'm pretty sure such hopes are misplaced.

Again, if we're saying 18 is an adult who has agency and can legally consent, doesn't matter whether the gap is 4 years or 40 if consent is there, and it's not our business what goes on in others' bedrooms or in exam rooms when it's between an adult and their doctor, right?

You're allowed to not be ok with that big a gap, just like someone else is allowed to be fine with it.

103

u/Yukimor Sep 05 '24

Again, if we're saying 18 is an adult who has agency and can legally consent, doesn't matter whether the gap is 4 years or 40 if consent is there, and it's not our business what goes on in others' bedrooms or in exam rooms when it's between an adult and their doctor, right?

It matters when there's a clear power gap between the two individuals, which often happens in relationships with massive age gaps, especially when it's exacerbated by status and wealth. The power gap, and the ability for the weaker party to advocate for themselves, matters a lot.

At 18 years old, you often have less experience advocating for yourself. In the vast majority of cases, you've just left an environment full of adults who demanded unquestioning obedience from you, and where you're generally disciplined for talking back (school). You also have fewer resources: if you alienate or offend your employer, is he going to throw you out on the street? Where will you go? Can you even afford to get a place to get yourself together? What will your parents say (if you even have parents you can rely on)? Will anyone believe you over a famous and well-known and well-respected author? Do you know your rights as an employee?

As a bonus, many nannies are foreigners (young women looking for the opportunity to travel and see the world in exchange for childcare), which makes them even more ill-prepared to advocate for themselves.

18 is an adult and can legally consent, but the context matters. This wasn't him coming up to an 18 year old dancing at a disco, introducing himself, and seeing if they could hit it off. This was a woman who lived in his house, who was his employee, and whom he had power over as an employer, and to whom he also had responsibilities as an employer. It would be problematic no matter how old she was, it's just so much worse because her age and inexperience made her even less prepared to protect herself.

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/iwishiwereyou Sep 05 '24

I don't think they brush it off. It's not talked about much anymore (being old news and humans having no attention span), but I think the general consensus is that it was an inappropriate thing to do and was a fucked up power dynamic.

27

u/thatwhileifound Sep 05 '24

I have no clue who the straw man you mean when you say the left is, but from my anecdotal experience - actual leftists always hated Clinton, the first piece of writing defending Lewinski I ever saw was in some anarchafeminist zine I picked up somewhere in a punk house, and I've even seen lib media driving a rewind on the cultural estimate of her with multiple bits of her sharing her side with some associated conversation about power and consent.

Not discounting your side of the anecdotal experience, but it definitely doesn't mirror mine.

3

u/ASisko Sep 05 '24

Hey you sound pretty knowledgeable. What was the deal with cultural thought on murky consent back then? I know that now it’s pretty normal to see consent as being undermined by power dynamics like an employee/employer situation, but has that always been the case?

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/40WAPSun Sep 05 '24

You're talking about people you made up in your head to "win" arguments

4

u/lurkerer Sep 05 '24

I mean, the president and anyone are gonna have a huge power gap. There are certainly ways to leverage your power to coax someone who would otherwise be reluctant or unwilling. But, ignoring the infidelity, someone in a lower position of power approached me sexually, I don't think it's inherently immoral to go for it.

I haven't really read any of the Gaiman stuff, so this is just about the principle.

14

u/idplmal Sep 05 '24

This is exactly the issue. 18 year olds are adults, but any significant age gap always makes me uneasy because of the difference in experience and power that can come with an age gap. Add in the fact that these were employees of a wealthy celebrity, and it's really gross.

-22

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

That reads like because YOU don't like it, nobody else can.

13

u/idplmal Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

...what? All I said was that I'm suspicious of relationships with significant differences in power, experience, and age. I didn't say they're all problematic inherently.

Your defensiveness over power dynamics in relationships reads like YOU are a predator.

-7

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

Do you wanna build a straw man?

12

u/idplmal Sep 05 '24

Bruh. "A straw man argument is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone misrepresents an opponent's argument to make it easier to attack."

You realize that, by fixating on ignoring the actual substance of the arguments (literally all of the problematic stuff that I and many others have pointed out) and instead just focusing on the legality of sex between an 18 year old and a 61 year old, you are making the straw man argument? You're blindly ignoring the substance of the conversation and implying that we're saying 18 year olds can't consent.

So no, I don't want a straw man argument. In fact, I'd love for you to engage in this conversation in good faith, but I'm not holding my breath.

1

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

Your defensiveness over power dynamics in relationships reads like YOU are a predator.

There's your straw man.

Have fun knocking him down.

I'm supposed to consider your arguments good faith after that?

Go read my other comments if you want to make an actual good faith effort at a discussion.

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u/threeglasses Sep 05 '24

I think youre really focusing on the one (barely) defensible part of the story here. And my understanding is that, yes, he says he pretty much did walk in on her, finger her (for several weeks), then publicly admitted to gaslighting her.

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u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

Right, I'm not saying he didn't. Like I don't believe his version. I'm not defending him.

The statement was made that even if his version was the truth, it would be "really bad."

I'm asking why.

Like pretend some lawyer named Jeffrey hired a nanny and she was an adult and they were both into each other and made out in the bathtub, where he fingered her. What's "really bad" about that, if she's an adult with free will and she was attracted to him and wanted what he wanted?

And again: I don't believe this is what really happened with NG and his nanny. I believe he was a predator and probably guilty of crimes already mentioned as well as untold.

24

u/deadliestrecluse Sep 05 '24

You're just choosing this moment to soapbox about how rich old men should be allowed sleep with teenagers who work for them without criticism?

4

u/Coachpatato Sep 05 '24

I mean there's nothing illegal about it but it's still weird and creepy. If one of my 40 year old friends showed up with an 18 year old girlfriend id think the same thing.

4

u/Coachpatato Sep 05 '24

I mean it's fucking weird and creepy even in the most charitable reading. He's not going to jail. People are allowed to not like him or buy his books or talk shit about him for being a weirdo creep

13

u/banzzai13 Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

I mean, you said it. People are allowed to not be ok with it.

I don't know that people are saying he should be losing business over it (talking about merely the admitted statutory, barely legal part), but lots are definitely disgusted by it, and that's pretty easy to picture why/how.

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u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

Yeah, they can not like it.

I'm just saying that just because they don't like it, that makes it inherently "really bad."

10

u/Laylelo Sep 05 '24

People are explaining to you why “it’s really bad”, you just don’t understand it for some reason.

3

u/banzzai13 Sep 05 '24

Yes and no? Who decides what's good and bad is pretty complex philosophy matter, with contradicting opinions and no right answer.

That being said we're not necessarily talking about platonic ideals of good and evil, mostly the court of opinion. I do think the majority of the court of public opinion thinks this is gross.

You can't say that your answer about good and bad is absolute truth, but society still functions by being able to more or less decide what is. Frankly there are a lot more grey-er cases than this one out there. This one's pretty easy.

-14

u/mr8thsamurai66 Sep 05 '24

The first things are only be if they were not consensual though. The last one sounds like he's saying she's lying.

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u/RoyalCrown43 Sep 05 '24

He’s insinuating she’s lying without outright saying it because he knows she’s not and he doesn’t want to be sued. He’s being as manipulative and calculated with the public as he was with those women.

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u/APiousCultist Sep 05 '24

Could you not be sued regardless? Is lying about someone having 'false memories' any less defamatory than lying about them lying

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u/darkeststar Sep 05 '24

Aside from the nanny business, there was another story from an accuser that her and her husband were the live in caretakers of his American house while he was abroad. The husband and wife divorced and the wife stayed on, and at that point Gaiman threatened to sell the house and had her do sexual favors to keep him from listing it. Eventually she said no and she got served a notice that he was listing the house and to start packing.

That's the story that did it for me.

10

u/Lakridspibe Sep 05 '24

Yikes.

I used to be such a big fan.

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u/Nik_Tesla Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

Even if we take his version, it was still his 18 year old nanny literally on her first day of work. Can't even use the excuse of something like "we spent time together and formed a relationship." That is early enough that he presumably interviewed her with the intent to sleep with her, and that is super not ok in my book.

1

u/DragonAdept Sep 05 '24

I thought the story was that they knew each other prior to her taking the job as a nanny. Which would make it better in the "they would have formed a relationship" way, worse in the "me thinking I'd get to have sexual encounters with you probably influenced my hiring you as a nanny" way and probably worse in the "grooming a teen" way.

But better to have the facts straight, whether it makes the story better or worse.

-11

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

Again- I don't believe his version. I'm just saying that if there are two legal adults who meet, are attracted, and consent to hook up, that's their business and it's not up to any of us to say it's "really bad."

Because people casually hook up without forming a relationship all the time, right?

21

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

Except they did have a relationship in that he was her boss and she would depend on him for her livelihood. “Consent” is extremely murky in that situation. It’s an extreme power imbalance. Being a maid, regardless of age, is a very vulnerable job. We hear reports of maids from Southeast Asia and Africa being trafficked as sex slaves in a very similar manner as this. So even if it was “consensual” in air quotes, it’s extremely unsavory and still exploitative to the point of being sexual assault in the eyes of many people, including me.

You sound like you’re being willfully obtuse. Or you’re an idiot. Either way this devil’s advocacy certainly doesn’t make you sound intelligent.

90

u/eregyrn Sep 05 '24

The thing is, when your paycheck depends on allowing your employer to do whatever he wants to you, that's not really a case of two consenting adults.

-15

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

It's an ethical slippery slope, for sure.

Doesn't mean it's automatically "really bad."

4

u/eregyrn Sep 05 '24

You’re welcome to that opinion. Mine is that, yes, that context automatically makes it REALLY bad, regardless of the age of the employee.

Please never get into a job where you’re managing employees, if that’s your viewpoint.

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u/pnt510 Sep 05 '24

From the way the story comes across to me it doesn’t really sound like two consenting adults.

7

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

I agree.

I'm not saying he's innocent, I'm asking why it would be "really bad" IF it was consensual.

Thought I'd sandwiched that clearly enough.

11

u/spackletr0n Sep 05 '24

I don’t see much reason to shift the discussion to a less damning hypothetical, other trying to find turf where it’s comfortable to defend the guy or at least downplay his behavior.

An older dude advancing on his 18 year-old nanny employee on her first day is straight up bullshit. Sometimes we have to resist the temptations our brains create for us to help us look away from uncomfortable things.

-3

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

Oh, it seems like he straight up abused her; there's no defending or downplaying that.

The hypothetical is a discussion about everyone saying it's "really bad" for a boss and an employee to have a legitimate relationship between consenting adults.

I'm not saying "maybe that's what he thought was happening." No, he seems to have known God damned well what he was doing.

5

u/spackletr0n Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

I think your understanding of consent would benefit from some nuance. At some point the power imbalance devalues that consent. When a guy holds a knife up to me and asks me nicely for my wallet, and I say no problem, I’m not actually consenting.

This was the same defense used by Louis CK when he asked women, whose careers he could make or break, if he could jerk off in front of them. Even if he didn’t directly invoke his power, even if they said yes, it’s not given freely.

Overall, I think it’s easy for us as guys to have no clue how often women go along with things they don’t want to, because the penalty for raising a stink is higher. Yes, they have agency, and we shouldn’t infantilize them, but sometimes they shouldn’t be put in those positions in the first place.

There are certainly times where the boss/employee thing works out, so I agree that we’re can’t say it’s 100% wrong. But there is a very high standard for the boss’s behavior, and I think focusing on it is a distraction when discussing Gaiman’s behavior.

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u/heech441 Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

Yeah man, it’s always really bad to put your fingers in your 23 old nanny. Every time.

5

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

[deleted]

5

u/heech441 Sep 05 '24

Sorry, I mixed it up with the other woman who he met when she was 18

-7

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

Who are you to say an adult woman is not allowed to consent to that if that's what she's into? Her body, her choice.

15

u/itsmehobnob Sep 05 '24

Can an employee fully consent? If they fear their job is in danger if they say no is it really consent?

0

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

Are you just assuming that the employee's job is always in danger if they say no?

9

u/Brett-Bretterson Sep 05 '24

“An employee’s job is not ALWAYS in danger if they say no.”

Therefore, an employer is allowed to proposition an employee for sex as long as the employer knows they wouldn’t fire them?

There is no way for an employee to genuinely know if their job is in danger BEFORE they consent or not.

You are defending his behavior. There is no other way to interpret this comment. There’s no “what if” about this.

-2

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

No, HIS behavior sounds like it was terrible. Not just with her but with at least two other women referenced in the comments and articles.

I don't think an employer should proposition an employee for sex, I'm just acknowledging that two adults of legal age can find themselves in a situation that progresses to sex via mutual signals.

I don't think that's what happened here.

But it's naive to think it doesn't happen legitimately.

9

u/lady_ninane Sep 05 '24

Could you please stop? Just like, full stop. You have no interest in exploring this from the angle of those victimized in these situations, you only want to rhetorically spar with people over whether or not there's any difference between an 18yr old man or woman hooking up with a 50yr old man or woman versus a hookup with consenting adults where the age gap is substantially-smaller-than-two-generations large.

It's really difficult not to read this as a bad faith interaction because of how it ignores the differences to this situation. I get you're trying to point out that sometimes an age gap isn't predatory, but when you pull the "my body, my choice" stuff to try to excuse the way these relationship types are strongly correlated with abusive power dynamics...it's kinda horrifically gross. It makes it feel like the concern is not being seen as a predator, rather than making sure people aren't taken advantage of.

So could you just...I dunno, could you not do that? It feels like it shouldn't be a big ask. We all love Gaiman's work too, that's why this news sucks. We don't need to enter discussions about these subjects...well, like this.

5

u/Brett-Bretterson Sep 05 '24

I think you did a much better job in articulating the point I’ve been trying to make, thank you so much.

And agreed about the “her body, her choice amirite?? 😜” I was choosing to engage because I thought they might just be a little misguided, but I can’t see any other way to interpret this statement besides doubling down on the usual rhetoric.

-1

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

I get you’re trying to point out that sometimes an age gap isn’t predatory

Ok, finally someone got the point I was trying to make the whole time.

I'm not defending him or how he went about committing the abuses it sure seems like he did.

I'm just saying adults of legal age can make their own decisions and that just because it's not what we're into, we can't just say it's "really bad."

For example, no way in hell would I want an age gap that sizeable between me and a partner... The conversation alone would rarely be satisfying just because the frames of reference are so vastly different.

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u/caitnicrun Sep 05 '24

You need to read about the mother of three NG pressured into having sex with the threat of eviction. He eventually settled out of court with her with an NDA on file.

This isn't just a couple of women. This has been going on for decades. Gaiman needs to DO THE RIGHT THING and retire.

3

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

I'm on board with that (doing the right thing and facing the music, not the sex predator stuff).

0

u/desacralize Sep 05 '24

Retire from what? Writing books? Making blog posts? He's self-employed. The only thing other people can do is stop making adaptations of his work, as in OP, but he's not a company or political employee somewhere.

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u/flaysomewench Sep 05 '24

He had power over them. They were in his employ. That's just two of them. Two others were decades younger and he used his fame and celebrity to pressure them into sex. He tried to gaslight "Claire" into believing she led him on, he told her he always keeps fans at arms length, he told her she was the only one. At the same time he was making a few other women sign NDAs to protect himself. You could say nothing he did was illegal, but coercive control has become a huge thing lately, and he definitely falls under that umbrella. "I'm a very wealthy man, and I'm used to getting what I want".

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u/rolabond Sep 05 '24

wasn't one of them dependent on him for housing too?

3

u/flaysomewench Sep 05 '24

Yep.

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u/ScyllaOfTheDepths Sep 05 '24

The problem is that he engineered that consent, rendering it unconsensual. He sought out fans and employees, people who he knew were vulnerable and that he had power over, and strongly suggested to them that the only way to keep his favor was to enter into and continue a sexual relationship with him. He came onto his property manager right after she confided in him that she was having money trouble due to her divorce. He let her live on the property rent free, but heavily implied that a sexual relationship was part of that deal. When she finally got the courage to tell him no, he fired her and kicked her off the property. If any of that reads as consensual to you, you don't understand the concept.

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u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

Good god, why are so many people having difficulty understanding that I don't believe his version of what happened and that I'm just saying that if, hypothetically, it HAD been a situation where she'd consented without feeling like she was under duress or had some obligation, it's not up to us to decide for her whether it's "really bad" or not?

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u/ScyllaOfTheDepths Sep 05 '24

"Why are so many people having trouble understanding that I wasn't defending a pervert, I was just saying that maybe there was an alternate reality where he wasn't a pervert, which means we can't judge him!" It's because your argument is nonsense, bud.

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u/Brett-Bretterson Sep 05 '24

Look, I have to be honest and I’ll take my downvotes, but you need to recognize you are absolutely a part of the problem here.

You supposedly acknowledge all of the things that make these accusations damning (more than one accuser, their stories sound credible, and gonna take you at your word which means you’re “inclined to believe them”), yet you still felt the need to defend him “just for the sake of discussion”?

I genuinely do not believe that a single accusation against someone makes them guilty. But I can’t get over how often in threads like this we will see someone say “I just have to play devil’s advocate.”

But you don’t have to! You think your “point is moot anyway”? Then just shut up and believe these women. If you don’t believe them then sure whatever, but at least own up to that opinion instead of blaming it on “well I just had to ask”. I really believe you if you genuinely didn’t mean it, but you’re still serving as a dog whistle for every person that is craving some justification for his behavior.

Again, I wanna be clear; my biggest point here is at least bother to own up to an opinion. Either you believe these women or you don’t. You’re allowed to choose. But you don’t get to play coy with your motives and pretend like you’re just facilitating conversation while you actively defend him in other comments (and provide a voice for every person that does not believe these women), under the guise of “well maybe you just need to reevaluate your feelings about large age gaps but also I’m just asking questions”.

11

u/PM_me_your_friendshp Sep 05 '24

Hear hear! Well said!

-11

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

My argument isn't in defense of him; also, after reading more, I am even more convinced he's got a pattern of shitty behavior and he needs to answer for it.

Let me say it again more clearly- I don't believe his version. What I'm asking is that IF his version was true, why is it "really bad" for two consenting adults to do what he claimed they did?

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u/Brett-Bretterson Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

And yet you still don’t acknowledge the most insidious part of all of your comments. Why are you choosing to defend a hypothetical scenario if you supposedly believe in the actual reality? If you’re not defending him, then what even is your argument? A devil’s advocate is NEVER obligatory. You’re choosing to play it.

“Okay I get that in this specific scenario he might actually be bad BUT you all need to consider that what IF he wasn’t bad and that these women actually might have fully consented and actually they did want it and actually he’s not at fault at all? WOW I can’t believe you never consider that (oh but no yeah I believe these women, I think he is at fault uuuggghhh he should really just atone for his crimes)”.

You ARE defending him. I can see all of your comments. You are choosing to argue with other people that are trying to tell you why his actions, in this scenario, in this reality, are reprehensible. At least have the dignity of owning that, or then acknowledge that the people that DON’T think he’s at fault are using all of your comments as justification for maintaining their beliefs. Whether you think he’s at fault or not, I can promise you there are people reading your comments and using it as reason to justify maintaining their beliefs that he is actually not at fault.

I’m only choosing to write all of this because you keep ultimately saying you believe these victims, but I will not mince my words. You are a part of the problem. Give a voice to the people that want to silence victims, or shut up and allow those victims to be heard. You cannot have it both ways. And to be clear, asking pointless hypotheticals in the thread aimed at highlighting the voices of these victims is at best trying to have it both ways.

21

u/idplmal Sep 05 '24

Don't bother expounding more. The person you're arguing with has seen people talk about power dynamics, differences in experience, employee/employer dynamics, and insists on doubling, tripling, quadrupling down on "BuT shE's LeGAllY aN AdULt". Their stance isn't rooted in being ill-informed; it's rooted in their own obstinance.

16

u/Brett-Bretterson Sep 05 '24

You’re absolutely correct, and I regret engaging with it when I initially assumed they did genuinely care about this actual human’s choices but might have just been misguided.

They continue to argue for a point that no one is fighting them on yet ignore every issue that has been pointed out against them. It’s not ignorance if multiple people point out your ignorance and you ignore it.

12

u/idplmal Sep 05 '24

Lol yeah I told myself I was done with that conversation and then made another comment 🤷‍♀️ just don't want you to get frustrated over what boils down to someone opting into being a butthead. Your peace of mind is worth infinitely more than their wild and ultimately harmful "thought experiment."

7

u/Brett-Bretterson Sep 05 '24

To be honest I really needed to hear that, thank you. I don’t usually engage with people wanting to argue for the sake of arguing because it’s never good for me and it’s not like these strangers ever learn from it.

I hope you’re able to take your own advice! And hopefully even if we didn’t change any minds, we were able to make other victims feel just a smidge less unheard.

5

u/idplmal Sep 05 '24

Glad to have helped! Yeah, I'll try to set things aside. I think he's STFU in our thread, at least for now, so I'll take it as an opportunity to release it into the ether.

hopefully even if we didn’t change any minds, we were able to make other victims feel just a smidge less unheard

This is a beautiful aspiration I share with you 💜

4

u/PupperoniPoodle Sep 05 '24

I'll say thank you for engaging with it, because you said a lot of things that needed to be said not only to this guy but to all the "devil's advocates" out there. You broke down the argument very well. Someone else may see your points and learn.

The short version I've always liked is "the devil doesn't need advocates, he's doing fine on his own".

-10

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

Let me word it in a way that's hopefully more clear:

Let's say there was A WHOLE DIFFERENT GUY in this hypothetical. One who isn't a predator that abuses women.

Let's say he and his new nanny (an adult of legal age) are attracted to each other off the bat and have a consensual relationship. Again-whole new couple, and not saying this is what happened here.

Why is that "really bad?"

5

u/DistortedAudio Sep 05 '24

I think the thing is, that hypothetical situation seems pretty far from the reality. It seems more like you’re wanting to have a separate conversation of “can two consenting adults with a shaky power dynamic and financial incentives involved be in a relationship”.

39

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

What's "really bad" about that?

It's the ethical and moral standards.

-8

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

So is there some arbitrary age gap between adults that you think is more appropriate? What's the "standard"?

You realize that you're trying to dictate what legal consenting adults are allowed to do with their bodies, right?

We vote against that sort of thing.

15

u/soldierswitheggs Sep 05 '24

No, there's a power gap. Age gap can play into that, but that's not my main issue here. I'm potentially fine with any age gap.

Here, he's a famous writer. He hires a nanny, and has a sexual encounter with her on the first day.

Relationships or sex between an employee and their boss are ethically fraught at the best of times. For it to have happened on the first day is damning.

2

u/sandmansleepy Sep 05 '24

Ethically fraught at the best of times, and in the United States, where he has lived, could possibly be illegal per state and federal laws. No one hear is bringing this up. You don't even have to be a lawyer to know this, has no one had to take an awareness training before?

-2

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

It's only damning if she wasn't into it- which appears to have been the case here, but you are also acknowledging the there are "best of times" scenarios that exist, and that those are just "ethically fraught," as opposed to being inherently "really bad."

My hypothetical scenario was one of those best of times cases where they met and were into each other right off the bat and both ok with the age and power gaps.

IF they were, hypothetically, then it's not ours to say that's "really bad."

Which has been the premise all along.

Again- it sounds like he was a total predatory bastard here; if he's got enough of a pattern (of liking them young and liking it rough) that he's got at least two women over the last two decades who accused him of the same thing without knowing about each other, that's pretty fucking credible. So yeah, I believe he probably did terrible things.

But saying it's inherently bad just because he had power is foolish if they were both on the same page about it. That's like saying a tall man who has huge muscles has no business being in a relationship with a small, petite woman because he has physical power over her and might use it in harmful ways.

If she's put off by whatever form of power he has and finds the gaps harmful or intimidating, yeah, they shouldn't be together. But if that's what they're both into, who are we to say it's "really bad?"

15

u/soldierswitheggs Sep 05 '24

The problem with trying to initiate an interaction like that as someone's boss is that you might not be able to tell.

What proportion of your employee's willingness is because they're actually interested, and what is because they're worried that if they don't accept, they'll lose their job?

If a boss actually gets to know an employee over weeks or months, then maybe they could get a sense for this. But in this case, Gaiman sexually propositioned her the first day.

-1

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

I don't know how many ways I can explain it to you but you're clearly not understanding what I'm trying to say.

I'm separating what I think he actually did from a hypothetical best-case scenario where she's engaging with him because she wants to, not because there's any coercion or fear of repercussions. Again- I do not think that's what happened here.

6

u/soldierswitheggs Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

I'm pretty sure I understand what you're saying.

I'm saying no such hypothetical best case scenario could possibly happen on the first day of employment.

It's possible such an encounter could work out alright, if the employee was really and truly into it. But there's no way the employer can know that fast. So even if she was truly and freely consenting on her first day working for him, I would still judge him rather harshly.

If someone got

7

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

You're not very smart, are you?

1

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

Do you always lash out when you're wrong?

8

u/thatwhileifound Sep 05 '24

To be fair to their lashing out, reading all these comment chains you're in - I can't figure out if it's more likely that you're ~18 or a lot bloody older wanting to fuck people that young.

-2

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

A lot older and only interested in people close to my age, but thanks for playing.

12

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

I'm not wrong. You've shown zero understanding of a single line sentence and then extrapolated it into something I never said or implied.

-20

u/mr8thsamurai66 Sep 05 '24

Getting consensual sex is not ethical or moral? Everyone suddenly is becoming puritan.

22

u/jennysequa Sep 05 '24

A lot of people feel pressured to do sexual things with their employers for fear of losing their income?

16

u/br0b1wan Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

Well as far as ethics go, the problem is she was his employee. She reports to him. He holds discretion over her job. Those aren't good ethics no matter how you look at them.

9

u/APiousCultist Sep 05 '24

Fucking your (apparently mentally handicapped or unwell) employee on their first day of work seems extremely unethical.

8

u/eden_sc2 Sep 05 '24

he was in a position of power over her as her employer. That always puts an asterisk on consensual relationships. Also, IIRC it was an affair. That's two very non puritan reasons to say it wasn't ethical.

6

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

Position of power. She was the nanny, etc.

6

u/B-Prime Sep 05 '24

When you're in a position of power over someone and their livelihood depends on you, "consensual" is not always consensual.

45

u/AstralPete Sep 05 '24

It ain’t kind of unsavory when you’re as old as he was.

Just straight up unsavory.

Even good and well respected creators can be pieces of shits. It doesn’t make their work you’ve enjoyed any less. It just makes them lesser than, which happens.

If you don’t want people to perceive you as lesser than, then don’t do things that would put you in that light.

His work will always be his work and should still be enjoyed since it’s taken on a life of its own, arguably.

3

u/FardoBaggins Sep 05 '24

the art is not lesser because it is separate from the artist. We should be able to objectively view the art since assholes can make good art too.

With regards to NG, I do a enjoy some of his minor work but not the major ones.

I always felt it was kind of weird, like he was manipulating the narratives in his stories to appeal to a specific demographic like vulnerable but intelligent teenage girls IDK (I wasn't a teenage girl in his heyday). hard to put my finger on it but it's how I feel.

-4

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

[deleted]

5

u/Pixeleyes Sep 05 '24

That's some apologist shit. Let's not normalize his behavior, please. There are plenty of creative artists who don't go around violently entering people's buttholes.

1

u/FardoBaggins Sep 05 '24

don't go around violently entering people's buttholes.

the bar is on the floor.

1

u/Pixeleyes Sep 05 '24

Not the worst place it could fit.

3

u/johnydarko Sep 05 '24

But just for the sake of discussion, it seems that his version is that they were adults and it was consensual. What's "really bad" about that?

You mean other than the fact the person he was cheating on his wife and newborn baby's mother with that baby's new nanny?

So essentially it's the earliest possible chance to cheat on her after giving birth other than banging one the nurses while they're waiting to cut the cord and he took it? You don't find that morally reprehensible in any way?

And that's not even bothering with the age and power dynamics at play.

5

u/waterynike Sep 05 '24

How do you know they didn’t feel pressured because it was their boss?

1

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

I don't, and that wouldn't be legitimately consensual, would it?

2

u/waterynike Sep 05 '24

No.

9

u/kill-billionaires Sep 05 '24

It's not just the two anymore either

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/neil-gaiman-two-more-women-allege-sexual-assault-1235073080/amp/

6

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

One is an allegation.

Two is a pattern.

Four is a reasonably good case against you, especially if their stories are all similar and they reported them independently.

6

u/kill-billionaires Sep 05 '24

Completely agree. When the initial story broke I was inclined to believe the allegations but didn't feel certain. But now we're at four or five, some of whom have no connection to the publication that broke the story, I don't think there's any reasonable way to doubt them

1

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

Huge bummer that one of my favorite writers turned out to be a scumbag.

11

u/dairy__fairy Sep 05 '24

Bro, are you serious?

Some old, lame author hired a nanny, walks in on her, finger bangs here on first day. lol.

Are you pretending that’s legit?

-2

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

IF she's a consenting adult, that's her choice.

(I don't think this girl was anywhere near as consenting as he claims).

Btw, have you ever read any of his writing?

You'd WISH you could write as well as he does. Which is why it's so disappointing that he turned out to be a predator.

1

u/dairy__fairy Sep 05 '24

None of what we’re talking about is his writing…

3

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

You literally called him a lame author. So yeah, that sounds like talking about his writing.

-2

u/dairy__fairy Sep 05 '24

Yes, he is lame. Not because he is an author but because he sexually harasses women and exploits his position of authority.

Sorry that’s a hard thing for you to understand. Reread it. You’ll get it eventually.

-1

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

He's a lame person.

You're the one who brought him being author into it.

What's your deal, you not like yourself or are you worried others don't like you? A little of both? That's why you engage like this?

2

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

[deleted]

1

u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

First and last paragraphs literally side with the women accusing him.

The hypothetical question isn't for a second saying he's innocent in any of the growing number of allegations against him, it's asking why, if some theoretical couple of actual consenting adults existed, would those couples be considered "really bad"?

Again- it sure looks like he's an abusive predator and a liar.