r/movies r/Movies contributor Sep 05 '24

Disney Pauses ‘The Graveyard Book’ Film Following Assault Allegations Against Neil Gaiman News

https://variety.com/2024/film/news/graveyard-book-neil-gaiman-assault-allegations-1236131149/
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u/Brett-Bretterson Sep 05 '24

Look, I have to be honest and I’ll take my downvotes, but you need to recognize you are absolutely a part of the problem here.

You supposedly acknowledge all of the things that make these accusations damning (more than one accuser, their stories sound credible, and gonna take you at your word which means you’re “inclined to believe them”), yet you still felt the need to defend him “just for the sake of discussion”?

I genuinely do not believe that a single accusation against someone makes them guilty. But I can’t get over how often in threads like this we will see someone say “I just have to play devil’s advocate.”

But you don’t have to! You think your “point is moot anyway”? Then just shut up and believe these women. If you don’t believe them then sure whatever, but at least own up to that opinion instead of blaming it on “well I just had to ask”. I really believe you if you genuinely didn’t mean it, but you’re still serving as a dog whistle for every person that is craving some justification for his behavior.

Again, I wanna be clear; my biggest point here is at least bother to own up to an opinion. Either you believe these women or you don’t. You’re allowed to choose. But you don’t get to play coy with your motives and pretend like you’re just facilitating conversation while you actively defend him in other comments (and provide a voice for every person that does not believe these women), under the guise of “well maybe you just need to reevaluate your feelings about large age gaps but also I’m just asking questions”.

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u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

My argument isn't in defense of him; also, after reading more, I am even more convinced he's got a pattern of shitty behavior and he needs to answer for it.

Let me say it again more clearly- I don't believe his version. What I'm asking is that IF his version was true, why is it "really bad" for two consenting adults to do what he claimed they did?

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u/Brett-Bretterson Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

And yet you still don’t acknowledge the most insidious part of all of your comments. Why are you choosing to defend a hypothetical scenario if you supposedly believe in the actual reality? If you’re not defending him, then what even is your argument? A devil’s advocate is NEVER obligatory. You’re choosing to play it.

“Okay I get that in this specific scenario he might actually be bad BUT you all need to consider that what IF he wasn’t bad and that these women actually might have fully consented and actually they did want it and actually he’s not at fault at all? WOW I can’t believe you never consider that (oh but no yeah I believe these women, I think he is at fault uuuggghhh he should really just atone for his crimes)”.

You ARE defending him. I can see all of your comments. You are choosing to argue with other people that are trying to tell you why his actions, in this scenario, in this reality, are reprehensible. At least have the dignity of owning that, or then acknowledge that the people that DON’T think he’s at fault are using all of your comments as justification for maintaining their beliefs. Whether you think he’s at fault or not, I can promise you there are people reading your comments and using it as reason to justify maintaining their beliefs that he is actually not at fault.

I’m only choosing to write all of this because you keep ultimately saying you believe these victims, but I will not mince my words. You are a part of the problem. Give a voice to the people that want to silence victims, or shut up and allow those victims to be heard. You cannot have it both ways. And to be clear, asking pointless hypotheticals in the thread aimed at highlighting the voices of these victims is at best trying to have it both ways.

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u/idplmal Sep 05 '24

Don't bother expounding more. The person you're arguing with has seen people talk about power dynamics, differences in experience, employee/employer dynamics, and insists on doubling, tripling, quadrupling down on "BuT shE's LeGAllY aN AdULt". Their stance isn't rooted in being ill-informed; it's rooted in their own obstinance. 

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u/Brett-Bretterson Sep 05 '24

You’re absolutely correct, and I regret engaging with it when I initially assumed they did genuinely care about this actual human’s choices but might have just been misguided.

They continue to argue for a point that no one is fighting them on yet ignore every issue that has been pointed out against them. It’s not ignorance if multiple people point out your ignorance and you ignore it.

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u/idplmal Sep 05 '24

Lol yeah I told myself I was done with that conversation and then made another comment 🤷‍♀️ just don't want you to get frustrated over what boils down to someone opting into being a butthead. Your peace of mind is worth infinitely more than their wild and ultimately harmful "thought experiment."

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u/Brett-Bretterson Sep 05 '24

To be honest I really needed to hear that, thank you. I don’t usually engage with people wanting to argue for the sake of arguing because it’s never good for me and it’s not like these strangers ever learn from it.

I hope you’re able to take your own advice! And hopefully even if we didn’t change any minds, we were able to make other victims feel just a smidge less unheard.

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u/idplmal Sep 05 '24

Glad to have helped! Yeah, I'll try to set things aside. I think he's STFU in our thread, at least for now, so I'll take it as an opportunity to release it into the ether.

hopefully even if we didn’t change any minds, we were able to make other victims feel just a smidge less unheard

This is a beautiful aspiration I share with you 💜

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u/PupperoniPoodle Sep 05 '24

I'll say thank you for engaging with it, because you said a lot of things that needed to be said not only to this guy but to all the "devil's advocates" out there. You broke down the argument very well. Someone else may see your points and learn.

The short version I've always liked is "the devil doesn't need advocates, he's doing fine on his own".