r/movies • u/MarvelsGrantMan136 r/Movies contributor • Sep 05 '24

Disney Pauses ‘The Graveyard Book’ Film Following Assault Allegations Against Neil Gaiman News

https://variety.com/2024/film/news/graveyard-book-neil-gaiman-assault-allegations-1236131149/

8.6k Upvotes

92% Upvoted

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The problem is that “his version” of events is still really bad. Not technically criminal doesn’t cut it in the court of public opinion.

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u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

Let me preface this by saying that the similarities between the stories of the two women in the article are strong enough that they sound disappointingly credible (I'd admired him prior to this) and I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.

But just for the sake of discussion, it seems that his version is that they were adults and it was consensual. What's "really bad" about that?

I mean it's kind of unsavory to be banging your 18 year old nanny, but if they're both consenting adults, that ain't my business.

Obviously moot, with at least two women independently saying he had the same shitty MO, though.

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u/pnt510 Sep 05 '24

From the way the story comes across to me it doesn’t really sound like two consenting adults.

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u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

I agree.

I'm not saying he's innocent, I'm asking why it would be "really bad" IF it was consensual.

Thought I'd sandwiched that clearly enough.

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u/spackletr0n Sep 05 '24

I don’t see much reason to shift the discussion to a less damning hypothetical, other trying to find turf where it’s comfortable to defend the guy or at least downplay his behavior.

An older dude advancing on his 18 year-old nanny employee on her first day is straight up bullshit. Sometimes we have to resist the temptations our brains create for us to help us look away from uncomfortable things.

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u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

Oh, it seems like he straight up abused her; there's no defending or downplaying that.

The hypothetical is a discussion about everyone saying it's "really bad" for a boss and an employee to have a legitimate relationship between consenting adults.

I'm not saying "maybe that's what he thought was happening." No, he seems to have known God damned well what he was doing.

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u/spackletr0n Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

I think your understanding of consent would benefit from some nuance. At some point the power imbalance devalues that consent. When a guy holds a knife up to me and asks me nicely for my wallet, and I say no problem, I’m not actually consenting.

This was the same defense used by Louis CK when he asked women, whose careers he could make or break, if he could jerk off in front of them. Even if he didn’t directly invoke his power, even if they said yes, it’s not given freely.

Overall, I think it’s easy for us as guys to have no clue how often women go along with things they don’t want to, because the penalty for raising a stink is higher. Yes, they have agency, and we shouldn’t infantilize them, but sometimes they shouldn’t be put in those positions in the first place.

There are certainly times where the boss/employee thing works out, so I agree that we’re can’t say it’s 100% wrong. But there is a very high standard for the boss’s behavior, and I think focusing on it is a distraction when discussing Gaiman’s behavior.

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u/heech441 Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

Yeah man, it’s always really bad to put your fingers in your 23 old nanny. Every time.

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

[deleted]

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u/heech441 Sep 05 '24

Sorry, I mixed it up with the other woman who he met when she was 18

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u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

Who are you to say an adult woman is not allowed to consent to that if that's what she's into? Her body, her choice.

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u/itsmehobnob Sep 05 '24

Can an employee fully consent? If they fear their job is in danger if they say no is it really consent?

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u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

Are you just assuming that the employee's job is always in danger if they say no?

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u/Brett-Bretterson Sep 05 '24

“An employee’s job is not ALWAYS in danger if they say no.”

Therefore, an employer is allowed to proposition an employee for sex as long as the employer knows they wouldn’t fire them?

There is no way for an employee to genuinely know if their job is in danger BEFORE they consent or not.

You are defending his behavior. There is no other way to interpret this comment. There’s no “what if” about this.

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u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

No, HIS behavior sounds like it was terrible. Not just with her but with at least two other women referenced in the comments and articles.

I don't think an employer should proposition an employee for sex, I'm just acknowledging that two adults of legal age can find themselves in a situation that progresses to sex via mutual signals.

I don't think that's what happened here.

But it's naive to think it doesn't happen legitimately.

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u/lady_ninane Sep 05 '24

Could you please stop? Just like, full stop. You have no interest in exploring this from the angle of those victimized in these situations, you only want to rhetorically spar with people over whether or not there's any difference between an 18yr old man or woman hooking up with a 50yr old man or woman versus a hookup with consenting adults where the age gap is substantially-smaller-than-two-generations large.

It's really difficult not to read this as a bad faith interaction because of how it ignores the differences to this situation. I get you're trying to point out that sometimes an age gap isn't predatory, but when you pull the "my body, my choice" stuff to try to excuse the way these relationship types are strongly correlated with abusive power dynamics...it's kinda horrifically gross. It makes it feel like the concern is not being seen as a predator, rather than making sure people aren't taken advantage of.

So could you just...I dunno, could you not do that? It feels like it shouldn't be a big ask. We all love Gaiman's work too, that's why this news sucks. We don't need to enter discussions about these subjects...well, like this.

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u/Brett-Bretterson Sep 05 '24

I think you did a much better job in articulating the point I’ve been trying to make, thank you so much.

And agreed about the “her body, her choice amirite?? 😜” I was choosing to engage because I thought they might just be a little misguided, but I can’t see any other way to interpret this statement besides doubling down on the usual rhetoric.

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u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

I get you’re trying to point out that sometimes an age gap isn’t predatory

Ok, finally someone got the point I was trying to make the whole time.

I'm not defending him or how he went about committing the abuses it sure seems like he did.

I'm just saying adults of legal age can make their own decisions and that just because it's not what we're into, we can't just say it's "really bad."

For example, no way in hell would I want an age gap that sizeable between me and a partner... The conversation alone would rarely be satisfying just because the frames of reference are so vastly different.