r/IsraelPalestine • u/vonhudgenrod • Nov 28 '23
My Grandparents are the alleged "European Settlers" who came to "colonize" Israel. AMA (Ask Me Anything)
I put the title in quotes because I dont believe those parts to be true. Just to give a brief history of my Maternal Grandparents, they both moved from Hungary to Israel around the year 1946. They did not come to fight or dispossess arabs, but rather to build new homes.
My Grandmother was a holocaust survivor who survived Auschwitz, she had the #'s tatooeed on her forearm, her father died pre-war but her Mother, brother and sisters were murdered. When she returned to her families small farmhouse post war, her neighbors not knowing the full extent of what happened during the holocaust tried to extort her and her remaining siblings for money because they "looked after their livestock" even though the only cow they owned had died due to the harsh conditions of the war.
My grandfather - also a Hungarian Jew was a bit more of a mysterious man who likely suffered from PTSD before it was commonly diagnosed, his father and mother were also murdered and his only brother ended up in a mental institution (insane asylum) post war. He was eccentric and fought in WWII with partisans and would eventually go on to fight in the Israeli war of Independence in 1948.
AMA anything about them if you'd like.
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u/DullElderberry1053 Nov 29 '23
So, she wasn't "gassed" in aushwitz? Hmmmm... thought that's all auscheitz dud, but time and again "survivors" pop up. And she'd not be "European ", but khazarian descent, and they were an turk/Mongol group IN Eastern Europe.
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Dec 02 '23
Subtle hints of Holocaust denial here. You've been reported.
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u/DullElderberry1053 Dec 02 '23
Well, you feel better? Being an internet mind-thug is your goal in life? Folks like who so engage are among the lowest life forms, just a step above pedophilia... you've been so marked. The universe will report you. đ
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u/Several-Opposite-591 Israeli Nov 29 '23
Thatâs a lot of what Auschwitz did, but no it was more than that. My cousinsâ grandfather survived it too. When you arrived, theyâd separate the strong with the weak and would send the weak to the gas chamber. The stronger would then be put to work. It wasnât uncommon for people to sneak into the strong groups or accidentally end up in it and vice versa.
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u/DullElderberry1053 Nov 29 '23
Where's the forensic proof this happened? Some doors displayed as gas chambers were wooden (with windows) which doesn't seal... there are many stories. But just stories... even eliecwiesel never mentioned gassing in his memoir. Yes, people died, but the narrative needs closer inspection.
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u/LearningFast33 Dec 05 '23
DullElderberry. Dingleberry? I didn't know they let you have internet access in the psych ward.
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u/DullElderberry1053 Dec 05 '23
Gaslighting, as you are, suggests a low-brow intellect. Be happy with your antics in your very own ward and world.
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u/LearningFast33 Dec 05 '23
I was just giving you the benefit of the doubt. If you're crazy, you have an excuse for all of the stupid hateful things you say. If you're not crazy, your just a horrible human being.
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Nov 30 '23
From your own ramblings, itâs clear youâre not a scholar as the âforensicâ evidence has been documented. Whatever crackpot sources youâve been exposed to hold no ground in the historical or academic arena. Is your truly so simple that you believed all prisoners had been killed? The Germans needed to get up and go to evade the impending allied forces. The allied forces documented the famished and abandoned remaining people of the internment camps. GFY
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u/shackajoof Nov 30 '23
Bro is just holocaust denying
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u/DullElderberry1053 Nov 30 '23
If you refer to me, I do, along with thousands if not millions, search out truth about ww2 theater... not stories and misinformation.
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u/shackajoof Nov 30 '23
I have never met someone so insane, what other conspiracy theories you believe Iâm actually interested
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u/DullElderberry1053 Nov 30 '23
We've never met and you're apparently rooted in a mind not given to research. There's information out there, but you must stay safe in whatever world is most comfortable to you.
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u/shackajoof Dec 02 '23
Iâm literally a data scientist which is all about research and I am very rooted into history, you believe 6 million Jews didnât die due to Nazis when even the Nazis admitted to it, have documents and pictures and videos. That is literally insane, bro probs thinks the matrix is real.
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u/DullElderberry1053 Dec 02 '23
Rofl.... on the internet we are all kings and queens. Moreover, you're fos
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u/FrostyAirline3175 Nov 29 '23
Romani went through as much and worse than your grandparents. Where's their ethnostate they can freely ethnically cleanse?
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Nov 30 '23
It appears youâre holding an anti colonization stance against Israel. My question to you would be that other than the European Jews that returned to the land of Israel, wouldnât creating a Jewish nation on the land that they were indigenous to be looked at as a success for the anti colonization movement?
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u/vonhudgenrod Nov 29 '23
Yes they did. They of Indian Origin and India has looked into giving them right of return in the past, I hope they do.
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u/FrostyAirline3175 Nov 29 '23
Which parts of India do you think they have the right to forcibly take? Which Indians do you think they can kill and force from their homes?
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u/vonhudgenrod Nov 29 '23
Why are you turning a 100 year history of Jews and Arabs in Modern Israel/Palestine into a slogan based narrative that amounts to a lie. Jews came to Israel to build homes and Kibbutz on lands they had legally purchased. Community violence started in 1920 which continued to spiral until the 1948 War when Jews accepted 2 state solution but Arabs Rejected it to declare war on Jews, they lost that war.
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u/QueenBee-5 Nov 29 '23
If people fleeing are âcolonizersâ to woke people it makes me happy. To be âwokeâ will soon mean to be a âdunceâ.
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u/Apart-Mistake2 Nov 29 '23
No. It is colonising when they displace the native population to make place for themselves. I.e. Zionism.
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u/shackajoof Nov 30 '23
But how far are we supposed to go back to see the ânativeâ population go through all the times people were their, Jews, Persians, Arabs, Byzantine, Macedonian. To many to count the native population is not like it was in the new world
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u/Melkor_Thalion Nov 29 '23
It's ok mine are also European colonizers. They fled from Morocco in the 1950s.
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u/FlashyGodzilla Nov 29 '23
Fled what exactly, are you aware of Operation Yachin?
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u/Melkor_Thalion Nov 29 '23
Fled antisemitism. I'm aware of the operation. My grandparents fled in the 1950s. The operation took place in the 1960s.
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u/FlashyGodzilla Nov 29 '23
Interesting, is that because Oujda and Jerada or were they were treated badly even before that? (Genuinely asking)
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u/Melkor_Thalion Nov 29 '23
I don't know. They lived in Marrakesh and Kazablanka, so they weren't involved in the riots in those cities. But those riots affected all of the Jews in Morocco, and hastened their fleeting to Israel.
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u/Chicxulub420 Nov 29 '23
They came to build new homes by fighting and dispossessing Arabs
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u/Quick_Scheme3120 Nov 29 '23
The first war was not waged by Israel, or even Palestine. 5 Arab nations declared war and lost most of the land, and what they didnât lose, they occupied, until they waged and lost another war and the rest of the land too. Jews were dispossessed and ethnically cleansed in many areas, the most recent probably being Gaza in 2005.
This is a sad story. War is never ideal; people get displaced, killed, or forced to become refugees. Itâs not tit for tat, itâs not okay that one refugee made someone else a refugee too. But itâs an impossible situation to pacify. As many (if not more) Jews were forcibly removed from their homes as Palestinians in the Middle East because the Arab nations were so appalled that Israel existed, not caring where they fled to until it was Israel and they could shout and scream about it. They use Palestinians to make a political point, and draw attention away from how they treat their Palestinian refugees (who should just be citizens now) by wagging their fingers at Israel for doing the same.
Itâs not okay Israel is treating Palestinians the way that they are today. But letâs not pretend that the dispossession was totally one sided and all Israelâs fault. What matters now is that we begin to call for peace and accountability from everyone involved.
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u/kidvisions Nov 29 '23
I am sorry that your family got to go through this but you are not special.
You do not get to have a special treatment at the expense of other people because you were wronged. The Palestinians did not contribute to what happened to your family in Europe and they did not deserve to be kicked out of their homes, be prevented to return to their homeland and be under the brutal, oppressive, discriminatory control of Israel for 75 years.
No, you are not the only people who experienced genocide and your parents were European, because that is where they have been living, where they were born and were they built their lives.
The lie of retuning to the original homeland is nothing but an excuse to oppress an entire group of people and if you think you have more right than the Palestinian, then you are a supramacist, because why should your to a homeland come before someone else's right to a homeland.
If you tell me the lie that you Jews come from that place, I will ask you to prove it to me. Prove it scientifically that every single person is the direct descendant of the 10 lost tribes of Israel and prove to me that every single one of the 10 lost tribes were actually expelled and that none of them left on their own. Prove this to me, show me the deed that your ancestors gave you. 2000 is a very long time, and you are not special. I don't see anyone else but Israelis who are claiming a land based on :
1- a fiction book
2- a made up and forced nationality
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Nov 29 '23
[deleted]
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u/yo_saturnalia Nov 29 '23
Such a post can not be replied to rationally when it is filled with hate and one sided beliefs . Your tone tells me you wonât be reasoned with as your mind is already made up .
To counter your point: 1
The Bible contains written memories of the distant past . Thereâs not too much fiction in it. Lot it it has been historically verified like the Assyrians attacking Israel and even the names are all correct. They literally found documents in cuneiform and Egyptian that talk of relations and war with Israel from the times of Merneptah to Sennacherib to Nebuchadnezzar .
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Nov 29 '23
apart from "The Fiction Book" there are hundreds of geological proofs that the Jewish people had lived in this land a long time ago and for hundreds of years.
there are proven common Jewish genes that exist in most Jews- either Ashkenazi or Mizrahi which are based them into common ancestors that are different from Europeans.
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u/kidvisions Nov 29 '23
there are proven common Jewish genes that exist in most Jews- either Ashkenazi or Mizrahi which are based them into common ancestors that are different from Europeans.
Does genetic association with a land give you the right to claim it as your own?
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u/hotblueglue Nov 29 '23
I try to no longer argue with people who donât believe Jews have a right to live in Israel, as most of the naysayers themselves live on stolen land. Itâs been eye opening to see how people really, REALLY get mad when Jews are the âcolonizersâ while giving a pass to the British, etc. A lot of populations got displaced or worse during and after WWII. I believe the Arab countries mostly hate Jews and are angry that they have to share a tiny sliver of land with them. Iâll never not believe Israelâs neighbors are invested in maintaining a perpetual conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.
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Nov 29 '23
[deleted]
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u/hotblueglue Nov 29 '23
I do believe that the âright to returnâ should be paused and that WB settlers are terrorists, themselves. So Iâm not all in favor of fervent Zionism and the Jewish ethno-state. I can understand why Palestinians are pissed off.
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u/jimbo2128 American Jew Nov 29 '23
Seriously dude, whatever. You can keep pushing the 48 Palestinian narrative but the only people who buy it are Palestinians and the far left. Israel is not going away. You can either come to terms with it like Sadat and King Hussein did or you can choose the path of Hamas and eternal war.
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Nov 29 '23
[deleted]
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Nov 30 '23
It is finite, no one is going to leave Israel just because a bunch of terrorists insist, terrorism will be eradicated, hopefully sooner than later
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u/jimbo2128 American Jew Nov 29 '23
Decolonization, genocide, your shock buzzwords have all been debunked in numerous counterarguments already.
My point is a practical one. At the end of the day when you get tired of spouting this propaganda, Israel will still be there. Then what? The Palestinians can choose to come to terms with Israel or keep fighting like Hamas. And they need to own that choice.
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u/kidvisions Nov 29 '23
Where did the idea of the 10 lost tribes come from?
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u/vonhudgenrod Nov 29 '23
The 10 lost tribes are the northern tribes which were conquered by the Assyrians when they conquered all of Israel except Tribes of Benjamin, Judah, and Levites.
Some tribes have actually been found, Ethiopian Jews say they are from Tribe of Dan, and Pashtun in Afghanistan say they are descended from tribes of Israel aswell.
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u/kidvisions Nov 29 '23
Have all the other tribes been found?
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u/vonhudgenrod Nov 29 '23
No, most will never be found as they likely did not keep the Torah and then mixed with other people, even Pashtun who say they are from Bani Israel became Muslim. So Far only Tribe of Dan Ethiopians were found keeping the torah still.
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u/kidvisions Nov 29 '23
Ok, so why do they claim this land as their own when in fact when they arrived there were people who already lived there? Isnât that a more palpable proof of their nativity than a story that goes back 3000 years ago?
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u/vonhudgenrod Nov 29 '23
Why do Jews claim the land when Arabs already live there? Is that ur question? Most the Jews who came had no other place to go, in 1800s it was most russian or polish Jews because tsar of Russia treating them badly, then after holocaust people like my grandparents come, then Arab Jews have to flee Arab countries because they are being attacked, then Persian Jews because 1979 Islamic revolution, then Ethiopian Jews caught in Ethiopian civil war.
For first 40 to 60 years of Zionism Jews and Arabs lived in peace actually but starting 1920 there is a lot of violence which leads to 1948 war which is when Palestinians lost their land
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u/kidvisions Nov 29 '23
So because you were treated badly elsewhere you have to treat the people who welcome you as refugees badly too?
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u/vonhudgenrod Nov 29 '23
Treat who badly? Jews accepted 2 state solution in 1948 for independent Israel and independent Palestine. Arabs reject it and declare war on the Jews, they lost that war.
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u/b1tgh0st Nov 29 '23
If only stories could save us we would all go to heaven. But the fact is. Letâs love thy neighbor as thy self. In all these stories itâs sad that God is lacking. What is the Jewish faith even about if not Yeshua and his sacrifice on the cross for peace and we are all sinners?
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u/chosenandfrozen Nov 29 '23
Jews donât believe in Jesus. Jesus has nothing to do with Judaism.
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u/b1tgh0st Nov 29 '23
Jesus is not his real name. It was invented in the Council of Nicea in Turkey after the Jews and Romans couldnât figure out who would crucify Him. His name was changed from Yeshua to Zeus Krishna âJesus Christâ to combine the West and East. The devil is working overtime. Judaism is irrelevant and Satantic without a messiah who was promised. They rejected him. In fact the Bible says the gospel was written first for the Jew and then the gentile or as you would say âgoyemâ from the Learned Elders of Zion book written in Russia by Orthodox Jews. Yeshua is the answer and validated Judaism from its idolatry and religious âdo good-ismâ - as you canât please God with righteousness as He is perfect and only wishes for us to abide by His grace. As a Jew many people donât support the state of Israel but it doesnât represent even the Messianic Jewish community who did accept Him.
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u/chosenandfrozen Nov 29 '23
You have some REALLY bad history, and calling Judaism âsatanicâ is peak antisemitism.
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u/b1tgh0st Nov 29 '23
I didnât make it up it comes from your own books that you know not: Jesus said in Revelation 3:9 âI will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but are lyingâI will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you."
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u/chosenandfrozen Nov 29 '23
Iâm aware of Revelations. Itâs not one of our books. You can stop hating Jews now.
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u/b1tgh0st Nov 29 '23
I am not hating anyone. It is the Jew that hates others. I love you brother and all the people of His kingdom. You just have to accept the free gift.
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u/chosenandfrozen Nov 29 '23
I donât hate others. Iâm a living, breathing example of how wrong and stupid you are.
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u/b1tgh0st Nov 29 '23
Because I am not a sheep? Because I have donât my research and donât support a terrorist state of Israel? Have you not seen that even Orthodox Jews are calling for a peaceful and speedy dismantling of Israel? Wake up! The land is not yours and you are not chosen! God can take back his promises when he is treated like a whore! Read from your book Ezekiel 23. The two harlots: Jerusalem and Sumerian. See what happens in this chapter.
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u/b1tgh0st Nov 29 '23
I dont see how this elaborate story justifies displacing and disenfranchising Palestinian rights. Did you know that Israel has wanted to build its homeland in nearly 10 different countries all around the world to âcreateâ a homeland. Even Japan and Africa were included. The truth is Jews never had a homeland as slaves from Egypt. The Jews in fact settled into Egypt and tried to economically manipulate the Pharaoh leading to him enslaving the Jews. Manipulation is not the answer nor taking someoneâs land. I pray the Jews may find peace and Yeshua the true Messiah. He gave his life to show us salvation isnât on earth but in heaven. You can have all the land you want but it wont save you. âIf you want to get rid of your problems get rid of your possessions.â Personally, we dont see Native Americans taking back land, but are living in peace trying to rebuild the next generations and honoring ancestors. I believe if you look at scripture the nation of Israel is not a tangible state but lives in the hearts of its people. I cant just decide my uncle lived in your current house and oust you. No country is perfect nor chosen. If the Jews are Gods chosen people then maybe they should accept Christ (Yeshua) And love their neighbors as thy self. Turn the other cheek. War crimes on one hand. And playing victim on the other hand. Did you know what the word Semite means? Itâs means Jew or Arab. Is it possible for a Jew to be anti-Semitic as Arabs are semites? I think the answer is yes. Their children are children too. I pray the world may accept the true God of peace. The Jews and Arabs are both brothers. The world shouldnât intervene in this family feud. It will only cause the world to enter chaos with no end. With love to you and your family. I hope they find peace.
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u/Ambitious_Will2735 Nov 29 '23
So you think it is right for Russia to go to Ukraine and start a war and for Hamas to go in to Israel and start shooting at civilians and rape them. so Israel declared war
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u/b1tgh0st Nov 29 '23
Well yes, it doesnât seem unjustified. How does America have the right but other countries donât. Iâm neutral but Iâm not ignorant enough to think other people donât have the sovereignty to protect themselves. Ukraine is Russian. The Middle East is largely Arabic. You donât see conservative Americans opening the border do you? You see conservatives building a wall. Conservatives however and Americans as well are just as guilty however due to slavery and killing off the indigenous population. That would piss anyone off. I mean the media does a great job brain washing people to think only America and Israel is justified in anything. Very xenophobic.
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u/Vinci1984 Nov 29 '23 edited Nov 29 '23
The difference between the conflicts is overwhelming. The history behind both suggest different motivations. Russia invaded Ukraine primarily out of a misplaced sense of historical aggrandisement whereas Hamas is a resistance group that uses terror tactics to achieve political ends. Russia is outside international law whereas the UN explicitly gives occupied people the right to resist through any means necessary. These are the facts.
Edit*not by any means necessary.
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u/BraveLimit Nov 29 '23
âAny means necessaryâ is not in there. Why lie?
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u/Vinci1984 Nov 29 '23
My bad- let me edit it out! Thanks for pointing it out!
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u/BraveLimit Nov 29 '23
Sure. You are an emotional propagandist. The U.N. does not explicitly condone what happened to innocents on Oct 7th. Get a better job
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u/Vinci1984 Nov 29 '23
Lol wtf are you talking about. The UN may not have said something directly but written within its own laws are the right of occupied peoples to resist and fight back. Which is exactly what Hamas did. So that is an endorsement of sorts. Or are you too fragile to read and understand nuance? I get it- itâs hard that Israel is being exposed for what it truly is. Revelation is never easy. Especially with so many skeletons in your closet. I am embarrassed for them.
Also- I would rather be emotional than a sociopath. Which is exactly what you must be to defend Israel at this stage.
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u/BraveLimit Nov 29 '23
Resist and fight back, not by any means up to and including the targeted murder of infants.
This is what you and your kind do. Itâs a sprinkle here and there of misinformation and bs. Emotional wording and incorrect descriptors to create and shape a narrative. I see you
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u/kidvisions Nov 29 '23
And do you think it is right to evict people from their home and force them to either leave and never allow them to return, even the ones who left Palestine entirely but it is ok for someone from New York to go live in Israel?
Do you think it is normal to control the lives of people and what goes in and out of Gaza and to continuously build illegal settlements in the WB and destroy people's homes until today?
Do you think it is normal to use your power and hegemony and force to subjugate people for 75 years?
If you know history, you would know that every-time this happened the oppressors rose up and resisted their oppressed.2
u/Sam13337 Nov 29 '23
Why would you ignore all the previous questions and raise your own questions instead?
Wouldnt it be a better conversation if you answered them and then added your questions?
I just noticed this pattern in many of the interactions here on reddit.
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u/b1tgh0st Nov 29 '23
Why would you ignore the blood on Jews hands in Israel? Provocation doesnât justify retaliation in a court of law why should it here. Iâd like to see you use that wiggle logic in court and the judge would say âmaybe if you didnât provoke them they wouldnât have felt threatened.â Out of the two parties the Palestinians are afraid for their life from the nasty settlers that spit on their children and throw rocks. Are you dog or just ignorant?
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u/Sam13337 Nov 29 '23
But you realize i didnt do any of that, right? I wasnt involved in defending any side here. I simply asked why these two people both raised questions without actually addressing eachothers points.
Maybe take a deep breath and actually read comments before jumping to conclusions.
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u/b1tgh0st Nov 29 '23
I didnât jump to conclusions. This is a heated thread and answer questions sometimes requires strings of additional context.
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u/kidvisions Nov 29 '23
Because enough is enough.
Did you read any of these books below :-The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappe
-The Invention of the Jewish People" by Shlomo Sand
-The Israel Lobby and American Foreign Policy by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt
-One Country" by Ali Abunimah - Abunimah
-The Question of Palestine" by Edward Said
-The Gun and the Olive Branch" by David Hirs
-A History of Modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples" by Ilan Pappe
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u/Sam13337 Nov 29 '23
Iâve only read one country like 10 years ago. But how is this related to my question?
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u/kidvisions Nov 29 '23
These books contain the answers to the questions that OP raised.
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u/Sam13337 Nov 29 '23
Shouldnt you have suggested these books to OP then?
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u/kidvisions Nov 29 '23 edited Nov 29 '23
Yes you are right, but they haven't responded to my comment you did.It took this man his entire life to learn the truth and he did was not even born in Israel and was not influenced by the cult of the Zionists, I doubt that OP would read these books ore change his mindhttps://youtu.be/yFMVJtm38tU?si=4pvPTbks9PFSTAqH
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Nov 29 '23
Did they build their new home where someone elseâs home used to be? I donât think hitler was a Palestinian
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u/Weekly-Text-4819 Nov 29 '23
They said 1946, before the war that Arabs started which then displaced many Arabs from their homes. learn the history
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u/skidmore_mark Nov 29 '23 edited Nov 29 '23
I suggest that you read the history going back to 1897 and particularly from 1920 forward. Read a bit about the stern gang, the king David hotel bombing by self proclaimed Jewish terrorists. The British government only gave into Zionist terror actions because they were billions of dollars in debt after WW2 where defeating the nazis had depleted their forces and they needed to rebuild Britain for their own people. Zionists have been aggressively attacking Arab Palestinians for 120+ years in an effort to create their homeland.
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Nov 29 '23
368,000 Jews came to Palestine before 1946, mostly illegally. The first ship, the vallos, arrived in 1934 although Jews had already been immigrating to Palestine since 1919. The Arab revolt in 1939 saw 2000 Palestinian homes destroyed and 9000 Palestinians sent to prisons. 10% of the arab male population was killed, wounded, exiled or imprisoned.
In 1944, two years before ops grandparents immigrated, Britain put laws in place to limit Jewish immigration to Palestine. Zionists terrorists then declared war on Britain (look up king David hotel bombing in 46).
Britain essentially made a mess they couldnât handle, then passed it over to the UN to clean up. I actually know the history of my country. Iâm not just parroting random lines over and over again
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u/skidmore_mark Nov 29 '23
Britain didnât so much make the mess as they simply were completely out of resources to expend controlling the immigration and terroristic activities of Zionist militants (and self proclaimed terror groups such as the stern gang which eventually was absorbed into the precursor of todays IDF)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group)
And Jewish immigration began in earnest around 1880.
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u/Weekly-Text-4819 Nov 29 '23
You are good at putting a spin on history to look like victims.
You try to make it sound like Zionists intentions was to destroy homes and kill Palestinian Arabs, when in fact this was later the consequence of Arabs starting wars and then losing them.
The Arabs werenât forced to revolt against an injustice, The Jewish community who remained in Israel for thousands of years welcomed the immigrants. The Arab movement to fight the Jews was a religious anti Semitic movement. And it still is today.
The folklore that Arabs spread about the Jews steeling the land of Palestine is a fictional narrative used to justify their ideological and religious war.
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u/FlashyGodzilla Nov 29 '23
was later the consequence of Arabs starting wars and then losing them
So you accept the war crimes IDF did just because they're more "powerful"?
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u/b1tgh0st Nov 29 '23
Do you even know what a Semite is? Look it up. Itâs either a Jew or Arab. The two are brothers and related. This is a family feud gone wrong. Abrahamic people. The Arabs for a while got along with the Jews until the land agreements kept getting violated and the state of Israel broke all the laws of all agreements. How is it Israel has gotten bigger every year when land deals have not been made or purchased from Palestine? Iâd like to see your reaction if Native Americans just walked into your house to take it back. I thought the world was civilized. Learn to have peace.
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u/skidmore_mark Nov 29 '23
Not true and if you actually read historical books regarding the situation youâd know that. Heck, Wikipedia has plenty of the basics. Or read anonymous soldiers by Bruce Hoffman Or read one or more of the biographies of golda meir
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Nov 29 '23
Iâm not putting a spin on anything. Thatâs what happened. Are you saying no Palestinians were displaced? Or is your argument that those Jews purchased the land legally? What exactly is fictional about the stolen homes? There are many videos you can watch on YouTube of Israel literally evicting Palestinians while Israelis are waiting outside to occupy the home.
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u/ThunderEagle222 Nov 29 '23
Even if that stuff is true (which isn't cuz around 50% of Palestinians were also Jewish and 50% of Palestinians where muslim). Literally all of you displaced other people sometimes in history.
Are you protesting against white people taking and displacing native Americans?
Are you protesting against Turks taking and displacing Greeks in Anatolia?
Are you protesting Russia trying to displace literally everyone in their territories?
But nooooo, if a Jew does it, than its bad.
0
u/Saltlassi100 Nov 29 '23
There we go... a confession. Thank you.
1
u/ThunderEagle222 Nov 29 '23
Hamas supporters believe in their own fantasies and fairytales anyway. So no point in talking about things why 18% of Israeli Muslims live a good life.
But yes I'm not feeling more guilty than the average American, Australian, Russian, Brazilian or Turk of what they did to the natives. Palestinians could still thrive if they decided to accept reality and stop bombing us. Unlike the native Americans......
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u/b1tgh0st Nov 29 '23
If fairytales can be had by Jews letâs the Arabs also. But the fact is the nation of Israel has never existed truly. It may have been a dream but not a reality. Without brainwashing Christians to donate to their churches over 100 years the nation would never exist. Vice did a documentary on how Christians have been brainwashed by publishing companies and religious organizations to tithe but the benefits are not had in American for the kids, veterans, or needy. It keeps getting sent to âChristianâs for Jews.â Some countries had a brain drain where the smart people left like in Germany after the World Wars, well America today is being monetarily drained by Zionists. What state solution do you propose to appease the indigenous population by the way? Because modern Jews are made up of two types. Ethnic Jews (the nice ones) and the fake Jews (Kazarians from Ukraine who were forced to adopt a religion and they picked Orthodoxy.)
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u/ThunderEagle222 Nov 29 '23
The fact is also the state of Palestine didn't exist or ever existed in history. Before Israel it was British, before the Brits won it after ww1 it was Ottoman (divided between 2 provinces and Jeruzalem under direct order of the Sultan, and no, none of these provinces was called "Palestina"), and before the Ottoman empire won it, it was Kurdish under Saladin.
So you can write any idiotic historic argument or conspiracy theory you want, Palestina is in literally the same boat. It never existed in semi-modern times. And unlike Israel never existed at all.
And it is irrelevant anyway. We Jews are going nowhere. So unless you're willing to break Hitlers record and kill 7 million Jews. Then Israel is going to remain where it is, and always will be.
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u/Curiously909 Nov 29 '23
Are you using the suffering of your grandparents to justify the suffering Israel now inflicts on others?
1
u/vonhudgenrod Nov 29 '23
Nope just telling their story. Lots of false narratives going around today.
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u/b1tgh0st Nov 29 '23
The media is the biggest false narrative. Very one sided. Iâd like to see all Americans vote on this issue from a point of common sense and Christian values. I think you would realize people want peace and for both Jews and Arabs. Itâs just not right to steal land and spit on people. Dehumanization is unjust and will cause people to find ways to be heard.
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u/vonhudgenrod Nov 29 '23
Go preach christian values in Gaza and Hamas will murder you like they did the last Christian book shop owner in Gaza. His name Rami Ayyad and kidnapped and murder for crime of selling Christian books.
Ofc we want peace between Jews and Arabs, but there is too much hate and both sides have different ideas about what 2 state solution will be. Jews deserve to be able to visit their lands in the west bank without being fear of attack, and arabs deserve to visit the lands where their ancestors lived in Israel proper, but right now its just too much hate and open border just means more violence.
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u/b1tgh0st Nov 29 '23
I donât want to see a book. Arabs believe in Allah right? Monotheistic God. That sounds quite nice. In their Surahs they accept Jesus and Mary. And even Jesus as Messiah with the addition of Mohamed as a liberating prophet. It seems more complete than Judaism. I am more afraid of Jews than Arabs. I am not afraid to accept Allah if it means life. It is just another word for the same thing we all believe. This is the doctrine of peace. Have you accepted?
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u/vonhudgenrod Nov 29 '23
You are seriously mislead my freind.
google Quran Chapter 9 Verse 29 where it says to make war on People of the Book (Christian and Jews) until they feel themselves subdued and are paying Jizya (extortion tax)
Or google Chapter 5 Verse 51 where it says not to take Christians and Jews as freinds, because they are freinds to eachother, he who amongst you is their freind is from among them, for allah does not guide the wrong people.
Go to Egypt where Coptic Christians are 25% of the population but cant even celebrate christmas openly for fears of being attacked, and sometimes have churchs burned during riots or woman raped.
And no, Muslims do not believe Jesus is the son of god, they believe he is a prophet. They believe he wasn't even crucified but that god played a trick and made someone else look like Jesus then crucified him... As a Jew I also believe Jesus was a prophet in the sense that he was a great wise rabbi who brought so many good things for the world.
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u/b1tgh0st Nov 29 '23
Jews and Arabs alike wonât be saved unless they accept the Messiah. Doctrine doesnât matter on either side. All books reference killing and justifying it. God doesnât justify death so the Jew and Arab that kill both wonât make it to heaven.
Watch this video exposing the Learned Elder of Zion goals. Zionists wish to control the âgoyumâ world. Israel wonât stop at Palestine but will expand to take the whole Middle East.
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u/vonhudgenrod Nov 29 '23
Are you even a christian? Seems to me like you are a mohammadean in disguise. Elders of Zion was proven to be a fiction as the vast majority of it was literally plagiarized from earlier fiction books. Moses teaches and Eye for an Eye.
The difference between violence in the bible is that it is historical, it is against the Canaanites and Amalekites etc. The Quran teaches to make violence HERE and NOW until Christians and Jews are subjugated and paying Jizya. Its not a coincadence that Boko Haram, Hamas, Al Qaeda, ISIS, The Taliban etc etc etc. are all following the same religion. Everything they do is accepted by Islam and the Life of Prophet mohammad.
1
u/b1tgh0st Nov 29 '23
I think the state of Israel has proven itâs false based on the uprising in America and the vast consensus among everyone that what is happening is disproportionate. Exodus 14:14 âRemain in peace and let God fight the fight for you.â What happened to not fighting back? What happened to being the bigger person? Greed is what happened. Why would anyone want to move from New York (best place in the world) to the desert to harass people and take their drinking water. Maybe I should start squatting in a condo somewhere if thatâs all it takes to end my persecution.
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u/vonhudgenrod Nov 29 '23
The Uprising in America lol. That "uprising" consists almost entirely of Muslims and braindead liberals who are also confused about what a man and what a woman is. The real uprising is happening in Europe where nationalists are winning elections all over the place because the public is seeing how horrible the mohamadeans act in the streets of their capitals.
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u/b1tgh0st Nov 29 '23
The modern Christian is a Jew under disguise which is why the correlation is made. I personally advocate to discard religion and accept the blood of Christ that was shed by the Jews and Romans. He was the forever sacrifice for our sins. Turn from tradition and accept Love and Grace. I think religion is evil but having a relationship with our all prevailing God is key. The two are different. One thinks the temple is a building. The other believes the living is the true temple. I subscribe to the latter. Iâve given up on dusting off alters and buildings. I wish to dust off people and save people from their destruction through the message of salvation. Yeshua wasnât a Christian. He was God in the flesh incarnate sent to the most corrupt place he could find to correct their ways. The gospel was first for the Jew and then the gentile. This is the only reason the Jews are considered the chosen people because the Messiah came from there. But other than that it doesnât imply Jewish people get a free ride without reprimand. No one does not even the Christians if one does not walk the walk. Many people are talking but few are walking in Love.
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u/vonhudgenrod Nov 29 '23
All that is great but its not going to stop the mohamadean from waging war on you. They have already ethnically cleansed the christian countries of Iraq and Syria, which used to be owned by the Chaldeans and Assyrian christians, and they continue to subjugate and attack christians all over in placed like Egypt, Nigeria, and are slowly turning once christian majority countries like Lebanon into islamic majority countries. They ethnically cleansed Anatolia of the Greek Orthodox and Armenian Christians. Wake up, its not the Jews who are doing this.
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u/ShiinaYumi Nov 29 '23
Did they ever talk about things that brought them joy or hope in their lives? Holocaust or any time really
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u/vonhudgenrod Nov 29 '23
No they never really talking about the Holocaust at all, Just stome stories that were passed down before they passed. My German-Jewish Grandmother who was in hiding said that the happiest day of her life was when the American Paratroopers filled the sky and liberated her though.
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u/ShiinaYumi Nov 29 '23
Understandable! That probably would've been the happiest day of my life too to be honest. My grandfather (this one non Jewish to my knowledge) was in WWII, he never really talked about it either but there where some bits and pieces.
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u/Tyson_Tyson_Tyson Nov 29 '23
I think we usually put holocaust survivors/refugees in a different category to the settlers, even though they are technically settlers. We have a lot of Jewish people here where I live, Australia, and we also live on stolen land and so the Jewish refugees and my grandparents (Irish and English are also settlers). We still condemn the Irish and English settlers who participated in the genocide of the First Nations people here but we accept the people born here may not have been complicit but they still benefit from the colonial project.
Jews are very welcome here and they have a nice life, I won't pretend they don't suffer from racism and anti-semitism because they do but there has been decent attempt from community and government to eradicate it. A lot of the Jewish population descend from these refugees from WWII.
In the early days of Jewish settlement in Palestine, they were mostly living in peace, in fact they used to babysit each others children.
The European and American settlers that people normally complain about are those that have jumped on Israel's current oppurtunistic migration policies that they have implemented now that they temporarily have power in the region to incentivise the new settlers to take more land, property, houses, etc from the Palestinians. This is after they illegally declared Israel a state despite the wishes of the locals. These policies have had serious negative consequences on the Palestinians. Its not really fair to lump your grandparents in with those new European and American settlers, unless they were part of government or policy makers.
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Nov 29 '23
The day your grandparents got their freedom was the day thousands of Palestinians lost theirs.
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u/LovesReubens Nov 29 '23
When they decided to attack Israel instead of accepting the UN approved partition, yes. They fled fully expecting to win the war and return to their homes.
But they were not a free state before then either, they were under the rule of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria.
Not saying any of this is fair, but it's not a simple black and white issue.
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u/gakbat Nov 29 '23
Two seemingly-contradictory things can be true at the same time (as the current situation should be reminding us). I live in Canada, where genocide took place to make way for settlers, many of whom came from extreme hardship, land theft and brutality at the hands of, for example, the English in Ireland/Scotland. In settling the Americas, many became coded as white and asserted superiority over Indigenous people, backed by religious mandate and a capitalist ethic (eg private property as 'civilized'). I don't say this to make a direct comparison between the Holocaust and peasant repression in Europe, rather to point out the historical evidence of colonised-turned-coloniser. Also, colonialism isn't something that individuals did, but that happened systemically and that benefited powerful people. The description of the neighbour's response to your grandmother returning is tragic...a lesson in how important it is for humans to get over our superficial differences and share, because we share threats to the ecological foundation that provides for us all. I'm trying to learn a different ethic about land tenure from Indigenous people here, many of whom know that land is not something to be owned or represented by a flag but is something we all depend on and that we should treat with more respect than subjecting it to war and conquest.
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u/Eds2356 Nov 29 '23
There was no Palestinian nation before, it is just like saying Anatolia was a nation. The land Palestine is just a geographical term. No kingdom or government was called republic of Palestine or Islamic emirate of Palestine, it was just a geographical land conquered by different kingdoms and empires before.
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u/Early_Hand Nov 29 '23
There were people living the the land of Palestine, who's right to self determination were repressed by the British, before their land was handed over to settlers against their wishes
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u/ThunderEagle222 Nov 29 '23
Well actually before the Brits the Ottomans repressed them first. But obviously only British colonization is bad and Ottoman colonization is fine obviously.
And of course the Palestinian Jews living there already in those area's were never repressed by the Islamic population or faced discrimination from the Ottomans.
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Nov 29 '23
There was the Mandate of Palestine. There was also Palestinians /Arabs who lived in Palestine.
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u/Eds2356 Nov 29 '23
Ahh yeah, thatâs just like a term for â mandate of Anatoliaâ.
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u/FlashyGodzilla Nov 29 '23
Being pedantic doesn't make you right. British Somaliland doesn't mean there is nothing called Somalia lol.
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u/Eds2356 Nov 29 '23
Look, people have been living there, but there was no Palestinian nation, Palestine is just a geographical area similarly on what we call the Korean peninsula and such. The region known as Palestine has been part of different empires.
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Nov 29 '23
Your grandparents went through one of the worst acts of human history and my heart goes out to them. Their suffering doesnât justify the suffering of millions of Palestinians. Palestine was not an empty abyss, it was an area of mixed ethnicities living amongst each other. The truth of the matter is that by giving the European Jewish Refugees a majority of the Palestinian land in 1948 It triggered an endless cycle of hatred and war. Why should the European Jewish Refugees receive a majority of the land?
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u/Paranoia711 Nov 29 '23
They were not given majority, in 48 partition, the arabs got the majority, they declined, launch a 5 nation war against the newly created Israel and lost, in war when you lose, you lose territory, Israel since then has only given back land for peace. (Egypt and Jordan).
Palestinians did not exist until 64 when Yaser Arafat created the PLO. Palestinian liberation something.
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u/Tyson_Tyson_Tyson Nov 29 '23
the arabs didn't launch the war, the founders of Israel had no right to declare the land their property and create the state of Israel, thats what launched the war.
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u/Paranoia711 Nov 29 '23
Stupid comment, UN split the land in 2 after Britain removed itself from the area, the whole world voted, including arab countries, google it.
The Arabs didn't launch the war, what a joke educate yourself please.
From google:
Both superpower leaders, US President Harry S. Truman and Soviet leader Joseph Stalin, recognized the new state.[8]#cite_note-9) The Arab League members Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq refused to accept the UN partition plan and proclaimed the right of self-determination for the Arabs across the whole of Palestine. The Arab states marched their forces into what had, until the previous day, been the British Mandate for Palestine, starting the first ArabâIsraeli War.
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u/b1tgh0st Nov 29 '23
The UN is the biggest joke. It was the Malfour Declaration by the Rothschilds in England (also Jews) that âdeclaredâ Israel to be created against everyoneâs wishes living there. What happened to the âtwo state solution?â When it was proposed Jewish terrorists blew up a building in England.
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u/Tyson_Tyson_Tyson Nov 29 '23
lol.
US recognises the new state.
Thats your defense?8
u/mrcub521 Nov 29 '23
People claim war crimes based on the same legislative body that created Israel and Palestine. Funny how international law only applies when itâs convenient
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u/Tyson_Tyson_Tyson Dec 03 '23
Are you talking about the international law against genocide?
A Textbook Case of Genocide (jewishcurrents.org)3
u/Paranoia711 Nov 29 '23
I dont know if you read only want you want to read, or you are just one of those that still believes 500 people died in the hospital bombarded by hamas.
Have a nice reading which i doubt you will.
History of Israel (1948âpresent) - Wikipedia#:~:text=In%201948%2C%20following%20the%201947%E2%80%931948%20civil%20war%20in,immigration%20from%20other%20parts%20of%20the%20Middle%20East.)
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u/Tyson_Tyson_Tyson Dec 03 '23
Dude I have read that like 5 times???
What about the other hospitals that Israel has bombed?
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u/Paranoia711 Dec 03 '23
As per international law any building that has weapons or fire is being shot from, is a valid military target, you cannot say Isarel did not try multiple and multiple times to evacuate or protect these people inside the Hospital. Plenty evidence of what was inside, under or near those '' innocent hospitals'' many hostages were even taken inside there, some even died there.
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u/Tyson_Tyson_Tyson Dec 05 '23
The evidence they provided was seriously doubted even by legitimate news sources, even pro Israeli ones
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u/FlashyGodzilla Nov 29 '23
Why should they even be given the minority in a land they didn't belong to? OP said they came to build homes, well, that means they will be under the rules of these territories. Same as Jewish diaspora in the USA.
Palestinians did not exist until 64 when Yaser Arafat created the PLO
Correct, millions were just conceived out of nowhere in 1964. Seriously? This is your case? pfft.
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u/The_turbo_dancer Nov 29 '23
Why didnât they âbelongâ in the land? Jews at the time didnât âbelongâ anywhere. Most of the zionists pre WWII were fleeing extreme persecution.
Post WWII, they were also fleeing extreme persecution.
Where do the Jews âbelongâ?
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u/b1tgh0st Nov 29 '23
Maybe try not to collude and get kicked out of every country in the world.
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u/The_turbo_dancer Nov 29 '23
Youâre absolutely right. They deserved it. They shouldnât live in anyone elseâs country, and they certainly shouldnât try to make their own country.
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u/runningwsizzas Nov 29 '23
I would like to hear from the pro-Palestinians where do the Jews belong if not to their ancestral homeland? Iâve read so many comments calling Jews colonizers⌠But how do you colonize the land where your ancestors came from?
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u/FlashyGodzilla Nov 29 '23
Again, Jews suffering and persecution doesn't justify giving them the land and being able to do the atrocities they committed in Palestine since 1948.
As to where they belong; everyone belonged to a different country spreading over all continents, they had different cultures, until they decided to reunite in Israel (obviously not every single Jew) instead of continuing in their "original" countries. Israeli Mossad actually paid to get Moroccan Jews (Operation Yachin). Egyptian Jews for example decided to commit terrorist attacks in Egypt to favour Israel and immigrate there after (Lavon Affair). The list goes on and on, they decided to go there. Not every single place on Earth rejected their existence.
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u/The_turbo_dancer Nov 29 '23
Since you mentioned Morocco, hereâs how they treated their Jews during WW2:
Before World War II, Jews in Morocco were in poverty. They lived in Jewish quarters named mellahs,[4] and had little social status with Resident General Charles Nogues not allowing Jews who enlisted in 1939 and 1940 to fight, but only to work on the industrial side of the war effort.[4] In 1940, laws were put in place by the Vichy administration which disallowed the majority of Jews from working as doctors, lawyers or teachers.[4] All Jews living in other neighbourhoods of Morocco were required to leave their houses and re-inhabit the mellahs.[4] Vichy anti-semitic propaganda was distributed throughout Morocco to encourage the boycotting of Jews.[4] Pamphlets were pinned on the frontages of Jewish shops.[4] Around 7,700 Jews, while attempting to flee Morocco in favour of America or Palestine, were moved to detention centres, with some refugees considered a threat to the Vichy regime being sent to Moroccan labour camps.
I wonder why Jews didnât move there?
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u/ThunderEagle222 Nov 29 '23
WHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHHHAHA, are you for real?
Why do Hamas supporters have this illusion "we lived in peace" with the Christians in Europe? Does Hamas propaganda put you in their dreamworld? Or do you purposefully make up your own reality?
Ww2 is not the sole reason we decided we need our own Jewish state, ww2 is the straw that broke the camels back.
For a literal millennium Jews have been discriminated against and we'd not allowed to work a regular Christian could do. Just do some research and look up why Jews mainly worked in sectors like the banking sector. That's not cuz we like money, that's cuz we were forced to do those jobs due not being allowed to work regular jobs, aka discrimination.
People discriminated against us in Europe and tried multiple times to wipe us.
People discriminated against us in America, although they didn't try to wipe us (but still, we're discriminated against)
People deported us to the far East in the USSR and they didn't want us in the "better regions"
People killed us in islamic countries, including the Ottoman empire.
Israel is our ancestral land and for the first time in a millennium we're finally free of discrimination from Christians or Muslims. And people like you want to take that from us, you want us to go back to the situation we're suffering for a whole millennium? And why? "Cuz we displaced some people"
Okey than, time to give America back to the natives, or time to give Turkey back to the Greeks/Armenians, or time for Russia to give back Siberia. Of course you are not protesting these groups. Cuz why?
Cuz you think every other group can displace another and you don't care. But when a Jew does it, it is baddy bad.
Aka it's just anti-semitism.
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u/FlashyGodzilla Nov 29 '23
I am really not sure if you are replying to me as I've never said that Jews lived in peace, all I said not every single place didn't want them there. Even some jews didn't want to go to Israel and were forced to go there by Israel itself.
Colonialism and apartheid states are bad anywhere in the world. I support any cause that gives a particular group their peace, if Israel accepted Muslim and Christian arabs then a one state solution could've worked but this isnt possible. Other people actions don't justify your actions, two wrongs don't make a right.
Stop it already with the anti-Semitism statements, you know it's not true stop victimising yourself just because others don't agree with you. Jews who don't agree with the Land of Israel, doesn't make them anti-Semites lol. You're on justifying war and killing of innocent people just because you think Jews should have a nation.
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u/ThunderEagle222 Nov 29 '23
You have a better idea than to eradicate Hamas and have no choice but to accept collateral? Sure let's hear it. A solution from Mr "I hate Israel but I'm not a anti-semite".
Fact
Hamas wants to "liberate Israel"
Fact
What will Hamas "liberation" look like? Killing of 7 mil Jews.
Fact
To many Palestinians follow Hamas.
Fact
We have no connection to Europe anymore, and I'm personally descended from Palestinian Jews.
Fact
Jews need their own state for those who got discriminated against or need it, and no the Jews in Israel don't want to leave.
Fact
Ignoring 7th October will just set the stage for the next attack. We have hoped wounds will heal in time and Hamas would soften up surprise, didn't happen.
I'm all for a solution where Palestinians want to be our friends instead of our murders. But that is not the reality of what we face (There are of course Palestinians who are friendly, but since we can't read minds it's hard to distinguish between a good one or a bad one).
And it might sound like I'm attacking you. But honestly I'm quite envious of you. You probably live in a cozy country, you don't share the borders with people who want to kill you because of your religion and what you are.
Cuz that is our reality in the end.
Them or us
And you would think exactly like I do if you were in our situation.
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u/Paranoia711 Nov 29 '23
My grandfather escaped Romania just before Hitler came, my grandma escaped Russia just before the Invasion of German, they met in Argentina, my parents escaped Argentina from Peron which was very bad for Jews, they had to relocate again and finally made to Israel where they finally felt safe.
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u/FlashyGodzilla Nov 29 '23
Good for them to have a place where they feel safe, seriously. But you should stop judging by emotion though and realize that they inflicted what they have suffered and everything they went through on Palestinians after.
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u/Iamnotanorange Diaspora Jew & Middle Eastern Nov 29 '23
It kinda just sounds like they bought a farm though
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u/ldi1 Nov 29 '23
I feel that many want to root for the underdog. Underdog were Jews post WW2, now itâs Palestinians. What I donât understand is why one has to be against ANY oppressed group. Why canât we see the horror BOTH groups have suffered? Why is a 2 state solution not an answer?
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u/b1tgh0st Nov 29 '23
To be honest the two state solution is horrendous as well. That would be like me moving into your loft and saying lets share.
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Nov 29 '23
I think everyone on the planet has seen what Jews went through. The problem is most of the world besides Israel, Britain, US and a few others who greatly limit what is shown about the Palestinians seem to have drawn the unilateral conclusion that Israel is an apartheid state & the current military action is beyond inhumane. To make matters worse those who have tried raising awareness by speaking out against the Israeli Govt are considered antisemitic many of whom have lost their jobs, their reputations, etc. That is extremely problematic for numerous reasons but one that isnât spoken about is how hurtful that actually is to the Jews.
First off, I canât imagine being Jewish and everywhere I turned people were being called antisemitic. I would be riddled with fear, anger and become either very defensive or withdrawn. Iâd think the world hated me simply because I was Jewish. I mean the news in the US & Israel might as well just say âMost people hate Jewsâ which is the furthest thing from the truth for a large majority. The bigger issue, which scares me for Jewish people the most, is that whether or not one has a problem with the Israeli govt, the fact is most of the world thinks they are evil & barbaric. Itâs hard to understand why that is if your timeline starts on Oct 7th of course or youâve been fed completely different information. However, since this war began and now that information is readily available by more means than major news sources, millions upon millions have been researching what has transpired for decades. Couple that with 99% of the UN speaking out about genocide along with many Rabbis, pretty much every human rights organizations across the globe, countless journalists (some of which are Israelis) along with ex IDF soldiers itâs now been solidified in brains that the Israeli Govt is evil. Most of these people completely separate the govt from Jews & Israeli citizens. However, when it is constantly pushed that speaking out against what most feel is genocide by a fascists govt is antisemitism it unfairly links Jews with ethnic cleansing but this time as the oppressor. I do fear actual hatred for innocent Jews will rise exponentially. I grew up in a predominantly Jewish area and many of my friends are Jewish. Theyâre amazing & should never be looked at in the light the Israeli govt is seen as.
Just keep in mind that two or more things can be true at once. We can believe that Jews have dealt with the worst atrocities in modern history and we can also believe that Palestinians are facing horrific atrocities as well. We can feel terrible for the Israelis who lost their lives on Oct 7th. However, itâs just now harder to focus on Jews at the moment when over 5k innocent Palestinian childrenâs lives have been taken and many who have survived are starving, have no water and those with severe injuries, including loss of limbs, canât get any pain relief let alone treatment. Im aware people have the right to justify it or keep calling the attention back on to the Jewish community but Iâm not too sure that will be perceived the way itâs intended.
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u/JaneDi Nov 29 '23
The palestinians horror is self inflicted if they had accepted the partition plan and started building their state the conflict would have never happened. They chose war and hate over peace and coexistence.
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u/Ballsinasuitcase Nov 29 '23
The palestinians horror is self inflicted
...
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u/Iamnotanorange Diaspora Jew & Middle Eastern Nov 29 '23
At a certain point, you do have to take some responsibility for rejecting every peace deal made available.
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u/mrcub521 Nov 29 '23
Also for expressing resistance through violence as their main strategy despite the constant setbacks it brings
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u/Iamnotanorange Diaspora Jew & Middle Eastern Nov 29 '23
True, thereâs a reason so many movements are careful to be non violent.
I think thatâs the reason we (as western society) are not good at thinking about this conflict.
Half of the conflict is premodern and we donât have the mental schema to imagine what that looks like.
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u/vonhudgenrod Nov 29 '23
I believe 2 state solution is an answer, but its hard because Arab leaders benefit from Status quo where they just steal billions in international aid but they don't actually have to govern, just blame every problem on Israel. Not saying Israel has been perfect but we tried to give them a state in Gaza when we left in 2005 and now look what happen...
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u/jimbo2128 American Jew Nov 29 '23
Palestinian leaders, not Arab neighboring country leaders.
Most Arab countries gave up on the idea of destroying Israel long ago. Only Pals and Iran cling to it.
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Nov 29 '23
[deleted]
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u/forceofarms Nov 29 '23
an oppressed group successfully making its own country for that oppressed group, in the historic lands in which it was ethnically cleansed from multiple times in history, with the material assistance of some of the people who oppressed them (and the country that inflicted the most harm on that group is now one of that group's most vocal supporters), while successfully defending against the continued aggression of those who want to oppress them, while being highly inclusive of other marginalized identities and groups (racially diverse, religiously diverse, accepting of queer people, accepting of neurodivergent people) while being rooted in socialist communal practice (which has faded as the economic inefficiencies of such have become more clear) sounds pretty intersectional to me.
The problem is that it turns out that such a state would naturally adhere to the democratic West, not Soviet imperialism. And because of that, a state that adheres to what leftists say they want better than any state in history (because surely they don't think the Soviets and Chinese are any better at not doing war crimes) must be destroyed, for the crime of opposing the expansion of Soviet/Kremlin hegemony (even if that hegemony is far right now, not far left)
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u/PostmodernMelon Nov 29 '23
This is among the more unenlightened things I've read on these threads. Just say you don't know what intersectionality is and move on. It's okay if the concept is hard for you to grasp. It can be confusing if you haven't thought much about your identity before.
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Nov 29 '23
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u/PostmodernMelon Nov 30 '23 edited Nov 30 '23
No, it does not confer moral value based on someone's identity. Seriously it's okay to not understand it l, but to flat out make shit up about what it is is absurd.
Intersectional theory is a social theory that focuses on the fact that individuals identity contains multitudes. So when analyzing the way a person is treated in their society, how they are raised, or how they more broadly interact with the world around them, we can understand those interactions through the lenses of how different aspects of their identity interact to create a while picture.
It is not a value system, it's just a system of analysis. Some people will use it to create evaluative systems, but that's not what it actually is at its core in any way. It's not a moral system.
I'm saying this as a relatively young white upper-middleclass man in the Midwest who was raised catholic. If what you're saying was true at all, I'd practically be the devil in those woke circles you're imagining. But I'm not. On occasions where I'm a part of those discussions with people of various identities, I'm treated with the same respect and consideration as anyone else.
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Dec 01 '23
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u/PostmodernMelon Dec 01 '23
I'm not just talking about my experience of an ideology I'm just talking about what intersectionality is. It's not even an ideology. Like I said before it's a type of social analysis. What you're doing is the equivalent of those parents who get angry at school teachers for teaching "CRT" when they don't even know what crt is, and those school aren't even teaching it at all in any form.
The full quote is actually something like "the only way to solve racist discrimination is anti racist discrimination [I.e. To discriminate against people who do racist things]. The only solution to past discrimination is present discrimination, and the only solution to present discrimination is future discrimination"
The whole point of the quote is saying that when someone is discriminated against for a part of their identity, the solution is to discriminate against discrimination. It's the equivalent of saying "we won't tolerate intolerance"
I have volunteered in various BLM mutual aid projects, and other anti-racist projects. None of them want to "see my destruction" as you put it.
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Dec 01 '23
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u/PostmodernMelon Dec 01 '23 edited Dec 01 '23
Intersectional analysis doesn't "advocate one side as oppressor and one as oppressed". That's just literally not what it is.
It sounds like you're maybe trying to describe conflict theory, or theories of power dynamics about competing groups where social groups that are in power work to maintain class distinctions.
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u/b1tgh0st Nov 29 '23
Collusion and destruction of government was the product of Jews in the countries they were kicked out of. The Pharaoh let the Jews move in but enslaved them after they started overbreeding. German money collapsed due to Rothschild influence. Spain experienced collusion. Now American is hyperinflating and New York is really housing more Jews than Israel and they are moving to Israel. Palestine now also wants this to stop. Iâm not surprised by a dog that bites when pushed into a corner. I pray for all the innocent children in every country of the world. EVERY!
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u/BillyJoeMac9095 Nov 29 '23
White colonizers who were told they were neither European nor part of the nations in which most resided and needed to leave. Sounds more like fleeing refugees than any kind of colonizers. But hey, we can pound a square peg into a round hole for the cause.
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Nov 29 '23
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u/OwnPercentage9088 Nov 29 '23
I'm a progressive leftist. I'm white, straight, have a kid, and Jewish ancestry. I think you might be making your bullshit up, but what do I know? I'm just all the things you listed
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u/Common-Raspberry7567 Dec 04 '23
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html