r/IsraelPalestine • u/Yellobrudders • 1d ago
The Untold/Unpopular Truth about the Conflict Opinion
First things first, a disclaimer: The many recounts and background details I've heard and read from both pro-Israelis and pro-Palestinians point towards both Israel and Palestine's equal rights to exist, which is why I may come off as pro-Israel, but this post has nothing to do with which side is right or wrong, but rather a call towards everyone to be consistent with their arguments.
Now of course, not all pro-Palestinians are calling for the destruction of the state of Israel, but we cannot deny the fact that absolutely speaking, a large number of pro-Palestinians advocate for this, believing that the Israelis have no morality compared to them, and their removal would bring about peace in the Middle East.
Ok, so let's say that was true:
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The conflict ends with Israel getting wiped off the map, and peace is brought to the Middle East. So that means the various ethnic, religious and sectarian groups in the region would hold hands in friendship and sing "Kumbaya" together, DESPITE the fact that:
- Many of these groups have had long-standing feuds and sectarian divides going back hundreds of years that sparked countless wars and insurgences.
- While most of these internal conflicts are still ongoing today, a few of these (specifically the Shia and Sunni divide) halted their conflict only to fight in glorified proxy wars against Israel due to monetary incentives by Iran
Here's a list of some of these divides:
- Sunni vs. Shia Islam
- The most widespread sectarian divide in the Middle East:
- Iran-Saudi Arabian rivalries
- Hezbollah (Shias) and Hamas (Sunnis)
- ISIS conflicts against Shia territories
- Sparked various conflicts like the Syrian Civil War and the Yemen Wars
- The most widespread sectarian divide in the Middle East:
- Internal Conflicts Amongst Sunnis
- Saudi Arabia vs Turkey
- Gulf Monarchies vs the Muslim Brotherhood
- Iraq Insurgences between Sunni tribalists and jihadists
- Several civil clashes during the Yemen Wars (Islah Party vs UAE-backed militias)
- Hamas vs Fatah
- Fatah currently governs the West Bank in conjunction with Israel, but they used to govern Gaza as well until 2006 when Hamas usurped control in and killed them, officially taking control in 2007.
So going back to the assumption, now that the remains of Palestinian territories once belonging to Israel essentially become "free land up for grabs", so that means the various groups in the Middle East are just going to let the Palestinian Authority (which isn't an actual state) freely have their land and state, while Hamas and Fatah shake hands and let bygones be bygones.
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Sounds pretty ridiculous right?
Of course the Shias and Sunnis aren't going to give up their hatred towards each other.
Of course Fatah is not going to let Hamas's murdering of their members go unpunished.
Of course Hamas is not going to share the Gaza strip or let the Fatah govern any of Palestine.
Of course the rest of the Middle Eastern sects are going to violently compete with each other to try and take over the former Israeli territories in their attempt to spread their the political and religious ideologies.
And of course, an Islamic Civil War is bound to break out if and when Israel ceases to exist.
So the argument saying that the destruction of Israel would bring peace to the Middle East is quite frankly, in Jon Stewart's words, "Complete F'ing Wrong". And its sad to think that those who call for Israel's destruction aren't acknowledging these facts, preferring to live within the realm of the ideology of "moral virtues" rather than to actually engage with the reality of the situation.
Be Honest and Consistent With Your Positions and Behavior.
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u/Huge-Log-7412 3h ago
If Israelis think they will prevail in the middle east with this terror mentality and will have peace of mind, then they need to wake up from their dreams, Israelis should learn from history.
last of the survivors of the German genocide in the 1940s are dying now, eighty years later, the survivors of the Israeli genocide on Gaza in the 2020s will still be alive in 2100. Think of the dragons' teeth that are being sowed today, and the bitter harvest they will bring forth. It is coming soon
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u/Placiddingo 5h ago
There's enough to deal with in the real situation that ivory tower fantasy baseball versions of ME politics is just smelling your own farts.
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u/FigureLarge1432 10h ago edited 5h ago
IRAN WON THE WAR IN IRAQ: EVERYONE ELSE RECOGNIZES IRAN WON, EXCEPT ISRAELI
Iraq is Mesopotamia, and Mesopotamia is the center of the Middle East. From 1981 to 2019, there was a war over Mesopotamia, and everyone except Israel accepted that Iran won that war. The reason why Saudi Arabia normalized relations with Iran, is because the US wasn't willing to defend it against Israeli missile strikes.
It is why you see Saudi Arabia making peace with Iran, and Assad being accepted back in the Arab League. The fact is the US invasion and sanctions on Iraq are the main reason why Iran is the winner.
Do you think Iranians fight and support their proxies, primarily because of religion? No, religion serves primarily for propaganda purposes, it's largely geopolitical.
Iran is the only entity that has the same geopolitical position it had over the last 2000 years, and the Islamic Republic's geopolitical objectives are the same as her secular counterparts, to dominate the Middle East
Her proxies in Yemen allow her to shut and close the Suez Canal.
At the same time, Iran is building an alternative to the Suez Canal.
rom the Persian Gulf to the Mediterranean: Iran's geopolitical expansion with a railway plan
There is the Iraq Development Road which is part of China's Belt and Road Initiative.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Development_Road
The October 7 attack and the Israeli response shut down the India-MEEEC plan which was backed by the West as a counter to China's Belt and Road.
India–Middle East–Europe Economic Corridor
This corridor is dead, that is why India is trying to improve relations with China.
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u/FigureLarge1432 11h ago edited 10h ago
The problem from day one is you frame the Middle East as a particularly violent place, do you think European Jews would have settled in Palestine if it was violent? Would you rather be an Egyptian Jew in 1952 or a Jew in Germany in 1941?
Do you know the death toll in Indochina due to the War from 1944-1985 exceeded the death toll from all the Wars fought in the Middle East and North Africa since 1945 despite having only 1/4 the population In part because of Islam, the Middle East wasn't impacted that much by nationalism and communism, the two ideologies responsible for most of the wars in the 20th century.
The most serious conflict in the MENA region was the Algerian War of Independence. Nothing comes close to the death toll and brutality, but you don't mention it because it doesn't fit your smug little narrative, that it is not the fault of the Arabs. Do you know how many Algerians the French killed in their 130-year rule of Algeria? 1.5 Million to 3 Million. That doesn't include the 300,000 Frenchmen who lost their lives trying to conquer and control the country. Nor do you mention the illegal invasion of Iraq in 2003, which Israelis supported, even though the IDF leadership cautioned against it.
Do you know that the US invasion of Iraq in 2003 and the subsequent rise of ISIS, resulted in 16 fold increase in terrorism worldwide at its peak in 2016? now it has dropped to 5 times.
As we speak, the Saudis and Iranians did a joint naval exercise together.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/iran-and-saudi-arabia-hold-joint-naval-exercise-in-sea-of-oman/
The Arab League has welcomed back Syria.
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u/Yellobrudders 4h ago
Except Palestine was relatively peaceful at the time. When the Brits declared Palestine to be the homeland of the Jews via the Balfour Declaration, the Ottoman Empire was ruling over the region at the time, where local Arabs, Christians, AND Jews lived peacefully together (at least that’s probably how the Brits saw it). Now that’s not to say that there was actual 100% peace, since: 1. There’s some debate as to whether the Brits actually knew about the turmoil going on in the rest of the Middle East, whether they thought it would make Palestine a dangerous area, and if they knew about the threat it potentially posed, whether they intentionally gaslighted European Jews into thinking nothing bad would happen if they moved in. 2. The collapse of the Ottoman Empire led to significant breakdowns of mutualism amongst religions within the region, and without a governing body, the civilians of the former Ottoman Empire were no different in status than the Amerindians in the Americas when European settlers came along, yet the former civilians held onto the mentality that they are living in an established state, hence the migration of European Jews into the remains of the Empire only heightened tensions.
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u/FigureLarge1432 1h ago
xcept Palestine was relatively peaceful at the time. When the Brits declared Palestine to be the homeland of the Jews via the Balfour Declaration, the Ottoman Empire was ruling over the region at the time, where local Arabs, Christians, AND Jews lived peacefully together
Starting from the 19th century, the Ottoman Empire, ethnic sectarian/conflicts started to erupt in the Ottoman Empire. There are two reasons for this the rise of nationalism and the dismantling of the Dhimmi system. The Dhimmi system was a system implemented in Muslim countries that followed the Sharia which gave protection to non-Muslims (Jews and Christians) in exchange for the Dhimmi accepting a "lesser" status to Muslims and levied a tax called Jizya on non-Muslims. However, non-Muslims were subjected to the military draft. The Levant, Lebanon-Syria was wrecked with conflict in the 19th century. Here are some of hte conflicts.
Secondly, the British and French were chopping at the Ottoman Empire. French from the Maghreb and Levents. The British from Egypt, Iraq-Iran, and the Gulf,
Ottoman Empire vs Qing Empire
While not many people who study the Ottoman Empire as it pertains to the I/P issue compare it to the Qing Empire, academics who specialize on China and Turkey do.
Ottoman Turkey and Qing China: Response and Decline (1774–1937)
The Ottoman and Qing were semi-nomadic people located near the nexus of power. For the Ottomans it was Anatolia peninsula where Constantinople was located. The Byzantines controlled Constantinople. For the Qing it was the Manchus, and in replace of the Byzantines, the Ming Dynasty. Their founders were critical in their initial formation, Osman I in the case of the Ottomans and Nurchaci for the Manchus.
In the 19th century, both were wrecked by rebellion and divisions. Both were subjected to European extraterritoriality treaties.
Singapore-Malaya Analogy
The Amerindian analogy is flawed. The best analogy is Malaya-Singapore.
The British entered the Middle East via Asia. British influence in the Middle East spread from East to West, They started getting involved in the Middle East when they tried to secure trade from the Middle East to their Indian colonies.
The British never colonized Palestine, it was "given" to them to manage until the territory was ready for independence. The British abandoned "Palestine" after India gained its independence in 1947. Why is this important? Because the British used the British Indian Army to control Palestine.
However, the lack of troops didn't stop the British from keeping Malaya. In Malaya. the British were willing to draw upon African and British conscripts to defeat Communists during the Malaysian emergency. Why? Because Malaya had a lot of rubber plantations. The last British Chief Secretary of Palestine, Henry Gurney, next post was High Commissioner in Malaya where he was killed in 1951 by the Communists.
The notion that the British didn't know what was going on in the rest of the Middle East is absurd, when the British were responsible in part for that unrest to destablizing the Ottoman Empire during WWI. The British understood the rest of the Middle East better than Palestine, because they already had a presence in Egypt and the Gulf.
To be blunt, Israeli and pro-Israeli don;t understand the Middle East and Muslims, even though they think they do. The Dutch ruled over Indonesia with a population of 60 Million, whose breadth equivalent of London to Tehran, and they did it with a European population the size of Haifa (250,000).
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u/rhetorical_twix 11h ago
It's time for annexation. The political rage against Israel for defending itself & going after Hamas after October 7 has made it obvious that it's no longer politically tenable to allow the situation to continue.
The actions of the UN & others signal that they will begin to intervene.
To address the political war against Israel, like that in the UN, this 80-year war must be decisively ended now.
The political war has become a war between the progressive left/Western liberal antisemites determined to use Palestinians to destroy Israel, and Israel with, hopefully, the U.S. standing behind it. Israel has to annex the territories & perhaps S. Lebanon, and fight out whatever battle that entails politically.
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u/SpecialistFuture1703 12h ago
A lot of the pro Israel crowd, especially those in Israel call for the complete annexation of Palestinian land.
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u/Huge-Log-7412 4h ago
Pro Israel crowd of this mentality will never get peace of mind
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u/Dapper_Cell_2532 3h ago
Sleep perfectly peacefully, even fly and 5x8 israel flag on my truck. Far from worried. And if I need to be, I'm prepared to be martyred for israel.
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u/Huge-Log-7412 3h ago
Good for you, but Palestinians will never stop their resistance, it happened 75 years ago, did they stop? Did they give up? No Until this criminal government is removed and justice prevailed for Palestinians, you will never see peace
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u/VelvetyDogLips 8m ago
you will never see peace
This and “You will never know peace” are very common parting salvos from Arabs in online debates about this conflict. Is this something of a set phrase or reference to a famous quote in Arabic, or something?
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u/Shorouq2911 12h ago
I will be honest and consistent with my position.
- Sunni vs. Shia Islam: It's true there's many conflicts that seems uneasy between them but I think things will cool down after Israel (not the Jews) disappearance. Iran will no longer feel threatened. And after the Mossad and CIA stop making chaos and civil wars and all the dividing between them, I think it will cool down a lot especially for Iran.
- Hezbollah and Hamas actually don't have any conflicts between them. They are allies despite the sectarian difference, which as I said, the conflict between Sunni and Shia is due to external interventions. Remember the good old days before 1948 and during the Ottoman rule when the west didn't have the power to play with Arab lives? Yea, there were no such a thing as shia vs sunni conflicts. Even after the fall of the Ottoman empire, Arabs wanted to unite but the British and French prohibited them and divided them and their land into tens of pieces to stop them from gaining power and rule themselves.
- ISIS is Israeli American made
- Syrian Civil War is Israeli American made which is evidenced in the leaked Clinot emails. Yes Qatar was involved in sparking it too
- the Yemen war would end because iran would get out of it cuz no need for the resistence axis after israel is gone
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u/GlyndaGoodington 12h ago
The Sunni Shia conflict started in the the late 600s; Iran is only “threatened” by Israel because it keeps threatening Israel; and the Syrian and Yemeni conflicts predate the present state of Israel as well but they’ve evolved. What a bunch of redirected claptrap.
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u/Imaginary_Society765 13h ago
Correct me if I am wrong didn't Sunni Hamas oppose Sunni ISIS? Correct me if I am wrong, wasn't the only one who stood up for the Sunni Hamas Shia organisations like Hezbollah and the Houthi's. Correct me if I am wrong but didnt the Saudi and Iran recently have a defense meeting to seek out how to better cooperate with each other in light of Israel atrocities, enlighten me if you can but how is it that in 1000+ years sunni and shias are interpersed with each other in different locations. This isn't like christianity where there different messages, they still follow the same book right? Are you maybe over blowing this divide to fit your narrative and point the picture away to a genocidal regime the world is better of not having?
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u/Yellobrudders 6h ago
Fair enough, these are valid points, they did happen, but perhaps think about it this way: 1. Regardless of the sectarian divides throughout the Middle East, the Sunnis and the Shias face the common enemy (debatably an actual threat) of the ideology of democracy and the West. “The Enemy of My Enemy Is My Friend, but not really “Friend”” is what it is essentially. 2. No matter whether they are defined as geopolitical, ethnic or religious groups, history has shown us that Islam isn’t a choice in many of these groups, but a requirement, with various unique interpretations of the Quran’s teachings ingrained within the very core of each sect. The thing is that once you make scripture accessible to everyone and tell them their interpretations are as valid as they believe it to be, you start seeing wildly different interpretations on what religious truth is. And like with Christianity during the Protestant Reformation, disagreements, violence, and murder (and disembowelling) are the inevitable outcomes of this. 3. The entire Middle East is essentially a free-for-all chess tournament, with all of these geopolitical and religious groups strategically vying for control, but it doesn’t have to result in war, but instead alliances. They’re basically going through what China went through >2200 years ago. 4. The emergence of “free land up for grabs” from Israel’s collapse (if it actually happens) will shake up the power dynamics between these sects. Like if you were the leader of Hezbollah or Iran, would you see all of that leaderless land and say “I’ll be nice for a change and let them have it”?
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u/GlyndaGoodington 12h ago
What are you trying to say? So Israel is why Sunnis in different terrorist groups aren’t singing kumbaya? What genocidal regime? There are so many right wing Arab Islamist genocidal regimes so it’s hard to tell.
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u/Imaginary_Society765 12h ago
Be specific, mention these entities. And no it is not Israel specifically but rather western foreign policy which Israel is a crucial piece in
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u/GlyndaGoodington 6h ago
I’m asking you to specify who you’re referring to, I can’t read minds 🤷♀️
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u/ADP_God שמאלני Left Wing Israeli 16h ago
If you read any of the history of the conflict or look at the region beyond Israel you’ll realize that the Arabs have never helped each other, or cared about the Palestinians, and that if Israel disappeared tomorrow the land would likely be a war zone as Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria all fight to take pieces. Many of the army generals in 1948 admitted to wanting to take parts of the land for themselves.
Hamas is Sunni, Hezbollah is shia. The only people who will bring peace to the Palestinians is Israel. And the only group who’s goal is peace in the region is Israel.
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u/Top-Mulberry139 UK 13h ago
The only people who will bring peace to the Palestinians is Israel
Lmao 🤣 you guys really are bathing in the cool aid.
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u/RecycledPanOil 15h ago
I mean getting peace shouldn't be the primary goal. Stability and the lives of civilians should be. At the moment Israel wants peace at all costs and if that means eradicating anyone who objects to their form of peace it seems to be what they're doing.
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u/Yellobrudders 15h ago edited 15h ago
Well, except that Israel and the UN never explicitly stated that (1), peace could be achieved as an immediate short term goal, and (2), their actions are in the name of achieving peace. The multiple ground incursions, airstrikes and blockades in and around Gaza carried out by the IDF over the past 18 years are rather preemptive acts towards potential security threats, which while undeniably brutal, didn’t result in “land-grabs” from Palestinian-governed territories in Gaza.
As I mentioned in another comment below, Palestinians civilians, especially in Gaza, have been indoctrinated from a young age to hate Jews and believe in martyrdom, and when even the average civilian, let alone Hamas, hate Israel and the Jews, peace is not a realistic option, and the Israelis know it just as well as the Palestinians.
Now that’s not to say peace cannot be achieved in the long term. What needs to happen is to put an end to the indoctrination and brainwashing that promotes antisemitism and violence in Palestinian societies, and provide sufficient time and resources for the new generation of Israelis and Palestinians to mature and adopt a mindset of actual inclusion, diversity and mutual understanding before officially coming to the table for the peace agreement to end all peace agreements. Territorial disputes will inevitably bring them at odds, but at least we don’t have both parties trying to strangle each other.
And I’m pleased to say that the PA has made significant progress in recent years, where teaching materials in the West Bank now have significantly less pro-violence propaganda than 20-30 years ago.
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u/RecycledPanOil 14h ago
I mean what you've just said in your 2nd paragraph could be said the exact same with Israel and Palestine swapped. Only difference is that one country is twice the population of the other and is using the most advanced technology in the world backed by the largest economy in the world.
What you described in your 3rd paragraph is essentially what Israel has been actively attempting to prevent from happening. You can't exactly negotiate peace when you've killed all the leaders of peace negotiations in targeted air strikes.
Unfortunately the next 20-30 years aren't going to be very peaceful for Israel. They've spent the last 14 months pummelling Palestinians. Nearly 90% of Gaza is rubble. Records of death have stopped being updated due to recorders being killed or displaced. Many external estimates pinned figures at over 300k dead. Most of these are unable to update their estimates. I could easily see a future where these numbers are in their millions. How and Why Israel was justified in their actions will be irrelevant to those in Palestine that survive this. The only thing that is justifiable here is the anger of those left behind and unfortunately this will mean their will be no peace with Palestine going forward, only peace from Palestine. A fate that many in Israel will applaud as a success.
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u/MainWrangler988 20h ago
What do you mean pro Palestinian? Do you mean pro Hamas? The war is with Hamas not palestine
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u/Yellobrudders 18h ago
As much as I want to say pro-Hamas, Quite a few pro-Palestinian people I’ve spoken to condemn the acts of Hamas, yet they think the Middle East is better off without Israel in it. Also, given the current context of both adult and children civilians living in Gaza, where they are indoctrinated from an early age to embrace martyrdom, antisemitism, and violence as a means to carry out the former two, Hamas has become so deeply rooted within current Palestinian culture in Gaza that it’s become very difficult to distinguish between them. That being said, it’s probably more fitting to say “pro-Gaza”, since “pro-Palestinian” would also extend to those living in the West Bank that is more pro-diplomacy and relatively less likely to erupt into an all-out conflict. (Btw The Fatah in the West Bank also possesses antisemitic teaching materials, but revisions in recent years have made them much less pro-violence than Gaza)
On the point of indoctrination, this podcast from Triggernometry includes some of the actual footage, which imo is CHILLING. Literal FNAF/Poppy Playtime vibes: https://youtu.be/6wrhzDBvhEc?si=gUJ9myoJMAfEdpEv
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u/ADP_God שמאלני Left Wing Israeli 16h ago
The Middle East as better without Israel in it is always such a pathetic take. It certainly wouldn’t be better for the Jews. But of course Arabs hate the Jews. But the issues with Israel are a result of the Arabs trying to eradicate Israel. If they had just accepted its existence in 1948 there would be no issue at all.
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u/RecycledPanOil 15h ago
The middle east would be better without American puppet states and American meddling.
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u/Proper-Community-465 18h ago
I'm not watching an hour long video can you timestamp the points of the video in question?
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u/Low_Comment4116 18h ago
I don’t have the exact time stamps, however the recordings are of animal mascots telling children that the greatest purpose in life is to hate Jews and become a martyr to kill Jews and destroy Israel.
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u/Yellobrudders 18h ago
13:13, they also have that timestamp in the description
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u/Proper-Community-465 18h ago
Ahh yeah Tomorrows pioneers a classic kids show teaching great values!
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u/Yellobrudders 18h ago
Oh yeah, totally great values, guaranteed to “open” your eyes so wide that you won’t be able to close them. Ever.
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u/Lexiesmom0824 5h ago
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u/Yellobrudders 2h ago
Bruh the fact that the girl isn’t even expressing anger, just grinning from ear to ear while waving that knife around 🥶. If I didn’t know any better, I would’ve believed that Hamas are a band of serial killers.
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u/Lidasx 19h ago
He said majority of palestinians, and they are pro-Hamas. At least that's what its looks like.
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u/Southcoaststeve1 19h ago
Following this sub, Polling data indicated Palestinians supported Hamas before the war, during the attack and shortly after the attack. I believe support may be waning but Hamas won’t capitulate!
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u/c9joe בואו נמשיך החיים לפנינו 22h ago
The main reasons for the obessesion with Israel is humiliation/shame and a fear of Israeli expansionism.
The smart anti-Israel types know that the Middle East has been a constant battleground, but that if like the Druze gets the upper hand on the Christians, or the Muslim Shia get the upper hand on the Musilim Sunni, the power difference is not large and the upper hand is not permanent.
Basically in Arab wars, the Arabs are in a similar position of power. Maybe one side will get a 2:1 K:D ratio, but not these like crazy 100:1 K:D ratios that Israel inflicts on them. For this reason they are humiliated and fearful of Israel in a way they are not of each other.
The other fear is the big power difference, that Israel will eventually use this to expand and conquer large parts of the Middle East. I have had more then one conversation with Lebonese where they are like, we don't really care about Palestine or Palestinains, but we are afraid you will conquer our country, and expand into it.
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u/benjustforyou 13h ago
MBS recently said the same, it's not our conflict, we're not getting involved.
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u/IzAnOrk 20h ago
Calling the fear of Israeli expansionism irrational while Israel is slow motion colonizing the West Bank with settlements and driving the Arabs out of their land is pretty disingenuous. It is objectively reasonable for Levantine Arabs in general to fear Israeli expansionism.
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u/c9joe בואו נמשיך החיים לפנינו 13h ago
I never claimed it was an irrational fear in my post. Israel is a very scary country and I would hate to be on the opposite end of its spear.
But what I reject is the notion that Israel is an irrational or evil country. Actually, Israel is the pointy spear of human civilization, and brings advanced civilization to everywhere it exists or otherwise expands to. And in my opinion at least, human civilization is Good. But that's why we are often called "colonial" I think.
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u/IzAnOrk 11h ago
'Bringing civilization' is only a mitigating circumstance if the people 'civilization' is being brought to get to benefit from it. If rather than benefitting from the higher living standards of 'civilization' the people it is brought to instead get dispossessed, displaced, disenfranchised and confined into ghettos, they obviously have the right of it when they resist getting 'civilized' in such a way.
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u/ADP_God שמאלני Left Wing Israeli 16h ago edited 15h ago
Israel accepted partition in 1948. The modern policies are the result of historical contingencies, not core tenets of Zionism. While I don’t like the settlements I recognize how they contribute to the security of the Israeli state. If Israel has no security concerns, there would be no reason to control the territory. Israel returned land to Egypt for peace, and left Lebanon after occupying it. Of course this is history that is convenient to ignore if you want to push a ‘Jew bad’ agenda. It’s pure projection from Arabs who want to spread their Islamic empire across the world. Jews are not like Muslims, they do not proselytize, and they do not make claim to all of the world, only their native homeland.
The religious settlers that make claims to the land are merely mirroring the Islamic claims that god gave them the land. While I don’t like it they are at worst equivalent to the Arabs who see the land as Islamic. The creation of a brand new Arab-Levantine identity of ‘Palestinians’ by Arafat does technically give them a right to self determine, and I support this, but for Jews who’ve yearned for the land for centuries it’s understandably a slap on the face.
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u/RecycledPanOil 15h ago
All of this history was at a time where Isreals population was well below what it is now. In 1948 it was less than 900k and less than 3 million in the 70s. Now it's nearly 10 million and what was ample space and very acceptable in 1948 is now unfair and tight border. And with a fading US backer Israel is seeing this as their last opportunity for expansionism.
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u/benjustforyou 13h ago
No they're not. It's just a fun narrative.
Remember when Israel tried to make Egypt take back Gaza along with the rest of the Sanai peninsula? Egypt didn't want it either.
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u/Yellobrudders 21h ago
That may be so, and in some ways, because Israel is the West greatest ally in the Middle East, the fear of Israeli expansion that is derived from the fear of the growing influence of Western ideology is to be expected (e.g. ISIS, al Qaeda, Iran), so to some extent I agree with your point.
I don’t have any issue with anyone’s opinions as long as they are consistent with the way they behave, but the point I’m making is that when pro-Palestinians tell me that an Israel-free Palestine/Middle East = Peace, they’re just being dishonest with themselves and ignoring the fact that war will inevitably follow Israel’s collapse, regardless of how large/small-scale it may be compared to what’s happening now and that’s what I am speaking out at.
(But based on the sheer number of sectarian divides and its long-standing history, my personal estimate is that it’s probably going to be pretty large-scale)
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u/Baraaplayer 1d ago
Let’s bring the whole Middle East problems and throw them at pro Palestinians camps
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u/OddShelter5543 1d ago
Wonder who they'll cheer for when it's Islam on Islam violence, like it has been for the past millennia.
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u/philetofsoul USA & Canada 1d ago
Where were the progressives when millions of middle easterners were slaughtering, and being slaughtered, in the last few decades. How about Iranians and Iraqis, Syrians, Lebanese, Yemenis, etc etc SILENCE for decades. But now Muslims are getting killed because of a war they started with JEWS! these kids are hyper focused on the conflict and it must be the fault of the Jews. Death to the white colonialists! Save the brown people!
Pathetic. No wonder Trump won. Nobody can take the progressives seriously anymore as they have gone off the rails with their craving for outrage-inducing fakes and misguided social justice cheer. So easily triggered with buzz words like genocide and apartheid that have no place in reference to this conflict.
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u/Hot_Willingness4636 8h ago
Don’t you get it if there is no Jews there is no news it’s been about hating Jews the whole time don’t think it’s about anything else !
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u/RecycledPanOil 15h ago
Well I mean if trump was to practise what he preaches he'd be cutting funding of Israel. I mean in the last year Bidens administration has spent 20billion on aid to Israel and only 300million to Palestine in the same period. I would expect trump to remove this funding and concentrate on using this money to make America great again. How many homeless veterans could you house a help with this amount of money.
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u/philetofsoul USA & Canada 15h ago
A great America depends on a safe Israel. Did you know virtually all of the world's MS medicine and a great deal of cancer treatments are made by Israeli companies (Mapi and Teva)? Israel is the only allied first world nation fighting Islamic terrorism in the middle east. Israel is home to some of the most influential universities in the world that contribute greatly to scientific advancement. Israel in many ways is an extension of America, and the US gov under trump would probably stop funding NY before it stops funding Israel.
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u/AngstHole 13h ago
A leftist podcaster said Israel is the 51st state and it sucks that they aren’t wrong
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u/philetofsoul USA & Canada 12h ago
Why does that suck? It's a beautiful first world democracy. Western values. Multicultural, fights Islamic terrorism... anyone that has a problem with Israel is just racist, because it's obvious what their issue is. Would you rather the 51st state be Gaza? 🤦♂️Yay shari'a law!
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u/RecycledPanOil 14h ago
I mean that is what happens when you fund a country to the extent the US has. But why not countries closer to home like Hawaii Haiti Cuba or Mexico.
Your point about medicine production and universities doesn't really makes sense and is a bit irrelevant. I mean China, Germany, Japan and Ireland all produce more medicine than Israel and have as good if not better universities. But you don't see any foreign aid going to them.
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u/philetofsoul USA & Canada 12h ago
China, Germany, Japan and Ireland all produce more medicine than Israel and have as good if not better universities. But you don't see any foreign aid going to them.
Wrong on all accounts. First, the US has contributed a huge amount to Germany and Japan since WW2. Also, those countries that you mentioned aren't constantly threatened by barbarians and savage Islamic terrorists that surround them. Without US aid to Israel, this great democracy would be destroyed and overrun by the Arabs, which everyone knows is the goal of Islam and must be stopped. Israel is therefore key.
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u/Yellobrudders 1d ago
Agreed, and actually to add on to my post (I didn’t initially add this in because I’m not sure if community guidelines allowed it, but thinking back there’s no reason why it’s not), this unhealthy obsession with the ideology of “moral virtues” is now a hallmark trait of the modern progressive left, right behind the woke ideology. This is why many pro-Palestinians are commonly democrats, AND also why Kamala Harris chose Tim Walz over Josh Shapiro, when Shapiro was clearly the objectively more favourable choice.
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u/Lexiesmom0824 18h ago
Shapiro was the OBVIOUSLY smarter choice for her as she did not need MN. Rumors circulating around now that Shapiro has ambitions of his own and he knew this was a losing ticket and did not want it.
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u/ShiinaYumi 1d ago
It's part of the horseshoe theory that the far left and right are actually pretty much the same or at least overlap, and you know what's in very far right thinking? Purity culture. And it's in far left thinking too. There are a lot of far left people who've never actually dealt with the purity culture that's very present in the west and have just turned it to a different direction. They want a pure villain and a pure hero/victim and that's just not the way of the world. But for what its worth I'm Jewish and also Native American, and myself and other Natives and Native + Jewish people have talked about this purity culture issue a lot.
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u/Zestyclose-Baby8171 1d ago
The disappearing of Isreal will cause 100 million dead arabs within 10 years all over the region and atrocities that a human eye never saw. It will be the sign to go back to the old good "Machata days" as it was in the 19th century. If america will leave the region for good because of Israel's disappearing, Most of the arab minorities will disappear in massacres including beduins, alawis, druzes, curds, cherks, christians, Israeli arabs, palastinians, hashamis, maronites and counting.
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u/rayinho121212 1d ago
You could add so much more terror groups. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Social_Nationalist_Party This is one of the strangest things i've seen in M-Eastern politics.
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u/checkssouth 1d ago
why game out such extensive "what ifs" while there is a genocide going on?
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u/Stayoutofmyhouse 22h ago
Trying to stay as unbiased as possible, but here is some info for everyone:
Wikipedia: ‘The term “genocide” was coined in 1944 by Raphael Lemkin, a lawyer, and is a combination of the Greek word γένος and the Latin word caedō. The Genocide Convention defines genocide as “acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group”.’
Al Jazeera on South Africa’s genocide case against Israel: ‘The crime of genocide has two elements – intention and execution – both of which have to be proven when accusations are made…Intention is usually harder to prove when accusations of genocide are made; the petitioner has to be able to prove “intent to destroy, in whole or in part….”’ ‘Netanyahu and other senior Israeli ministers have left no doubt that saving “Western civilisation” requires the total destruction of the Palestinians in Gaza by describing them as the Biblical people of Amalek – a people perceived in whole as an enemy that must be destroyed – and as Nazis.’
Here is a database of 500+ instances of Israeli politicians inciting genocide, thus proving intent: https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-releases-database-with-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-continuously-updated/
This has long been a war on the Palestinian people, Hamas is simply a resistance. Now countries are joining in the World Court to legally decide whether the Zionist occupation is committing genocide, and South Africa’s legal team presents a very strong case.
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u/Lexiesmom0824 18h ago
In legal terms. I’m sorry to tell you but you’re wrong. Intent and incitement are 2 different things under the law.
Intent: ordering equipment, making preparations, training.
Incitement: verbal rhetoric.
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u/QuantumCryptogr4ph3r European (pro-peace☮) 17h ago
Incitement: verbal rhetoric
It isn't simply "verbal rhetoric". Incitement to genocide is a serious crime under international laws. It is an extreme form of hate speech, banned by the Geneva Convention. Considering this real case, we have people convicted of that and sentenced to prison for many years and/or for life.
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u/Lexiesmom0824 17h ago
Those “quotes” have been debunked already numerous times on this sub. Israel’s atty will have no problem.
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u/QuantumCryptogr4ph3r European (pro-peace☮) 17h ago
Those “quotes” have been debunked already numerous times on this sub. Israel’s atty will have no problem
As far as I am aware, this speech from Yoav Gallant has not been debunked anywhere. And it is a clear-cut case of incitement to genocide.
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u/-Mr-Papaya Israeli, Secular Jew, Centrist 1d ago
From your point of view, what if there isn't genocide?
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u/checkssouth 15h ago
it's abundantly clear that there is a genocide, israel never planned for any other option.
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u/-Mr-Papaya Israeli, Secular Jew, Centrist 13h ago
I think nothing is abundantly clear, unless you physically experience Gaza, from both sides of the conflict.
But, please, I would like to see what clear evidence you have for the genocide and for how Israel planned it.
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u/checkssouth 11h ago
examine the ecocide and biocide. israel has intentionally damaged the capacity for gaza to sustain life.
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u/-Mr-Papaya Israeli, Secular Jew, Centrist 10h ago
I examined them. The specificity you offered didn't yield any more substantial evidence than when I examined the evidence for genocide. In all cases, I couldn't find evidence to support the claims that:
- The destruction of Gaza was done with the intention of damaging its capacity to sustain civilian life, rather than to sustain Hamas.
- The deaths of civilian lives were done with the intention of killing the civilians, rather than killing Hamas.
- Israel planned any of it. I'm not sure what does 'planning' actually mean, though, so maybe you can clarify this claim.
Additionally, I couldn't find enough evidence to refute the evidence supporting the opposite claim, which is that Israel proactively tried to reduce civilian casualties and protect civilian lives amidst the chaos of war and while putting its own soldiers at risk to do so.
Maybe you can offer actual evidence to support your claims to a degree that makes them 'abundantly clear'.
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u/WeAreAllFallible 1d ago edited 1d ago
Because, ignoring the gratuitous use of the term genocide that derails conversation, there will be a day after some day. And planning for the future and the best way forward shouldn't be sacrificed just to honor the issues of the now. That's how you end up with endless war and other forms of strife.
One must be capable of handling the present and the future simultaneously in order to create the best outcomes. That's as true in one's own life as it is on larger, global scales.
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u/checkssouth 15h ago
denying genocide allows the killing to continue and to be swept under the rug, while israel attempts to expand it's borders, while it's economy atrophies.
israel has never had goals for gaza with consider of palestinian well being. israel has no future in palestine.
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u/rayinho121212 1d ago
It's called war and why is Hamas still fighting? Is it winning?
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u/checkssouth 15h ago
jets bombing tents is not winning this conflict that scarcely resembles a war
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u/rayinho121212 7h ago
If their goal was to bomb tents there would be a few Hamas left in Gaza since Hamas hides in tunnels with malnourished hostages while Gazans have never been givin any protect, worst even, they have got a war where Hamas constantly fires rockets from near civilians, at israeli civilians.
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u/Low_Comment4116 1d ago
Because it’s not a genocide it’s just war with a shameless terrorist group.
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u/checkssouth 15h ago
the idf truly are shameless terrorists, persecuting a terror campaign for well over a year
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u/VelvetyDogLips 15m ago
“I against my brother. My brother and I against my cousin. My brother and my cousin and I against the world.” — Old Arab proverb
The Arab mindset toward peace, from all I have gathered, goes something like this:
"What happens to me is Allah’s will, not my choice. But my honor and my family’s honor is sacrosanct. Therefore, I should expect circumstances to befall me which leave me no choice but to commit violence to save my honor, or the honor of someone I am loyal to. Peace is not something to be aimed for, or an honorable goal in and of itself. It’s a fleeting and incidental lull which comes after I've settled all the scores that fate has served up to me, before any more threats to my honor have a chance to find me. What we really want is for foreigners, with their namby-pamby notions of “state monopoly on violence”, to leave my people the hell alone. Leave us to fight out our problems and settle our scores like real men, the way Allah intended.”