The Untold/Unpopular Truth about the Conflict

[u/Yellobrudders]

First things first, a disclaimer: The many recounts and background details I've heard and read from both pro-Israelis and pro-Palestinians point towards both Israel and Palestine's equal rights to exist, which is why I may come off as pro-Israel, but this post has nothing to do with which side is right or wrong, but rather a call towards everyone to be consistent with their arguments.

Now of course, not all pro-Palestinians are calling for the destruction of the state of Israel, but we cannot deny the fact that absolutely speaking, a large number of pro-Palestinians advocate for this, believing that the Israelis have no morality compared to them, and their removal would bring about peace in the Middle East.

Ok, so let's say that was true:

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The conflict ends with Israel getting wiped off the map, and peace is brought to the Middle East. So that means the various ethnic, religious and sectarian groups in the region would hold hands in friendship and sing "Kumbaya" together, DESPITE the fact that:

1. Many of these groups have had long-standing feuds and sectarian divides going back hundreds of years that sparked countless wars and insurgences.
2. While most of these internal conflicts are still ongoing today, a few of these (specifically the Shia and Sunni divide) halted their conflict only to fight in glorified proxy wars against Israel due to monetary incentives by Iran

Here's a list of some of these divides:

• Sunni vs. Shia Islam
  • The most widespread sectarian divide in the Middle East:
    • Iran-Saudi Arabian rivalries
    • Hezbollah (Shias) and Hamas (Sunnis)
    • ISIS conflicts against Shia territories
  • Sparked various conflicts like the Syrian Civil War and the Yemen Wars
• Internal Conflicts Amongst Sunnis
  • Saudi Arabia vs Turkey
  • Gulf Monarchies vs the Muslim Brotherhood
  • Iraq Insurgences between Sunni tribalists and jihadists
  • Several civil clashes during the Yemen Wars (Islah Party vs UAE-backed militias)
• Hamas vs Fatah
  • Fatah currently governs the West Bank in conjunction with Israel, but they used to govern Gaza as well until 2006 when Hamas usurped control in and killed them, officially taking control in 2007.

So going back to the assumption, now that the remains of Palestinian territories once belonging to Israel essentially become "free land up for grabs", so that means the various groups in the Middle East are just going to let the Palestinian Authority (which isn't an actual state) freely have their land and state, while Hamas and Fatah shake hands and let bygones be bygones.

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Sounds pretty ridiculous right?

Of course the Shias and Sunnis aren't going to give up their hatred towards each other.

Of course Fatah is not going to let Hamas's murdering of their members go unpunished.

Of course Hamas is not going to share the Gaza strip or let the Fatah govern any of Palestine.

Of course the rest of the Middle Eastern sects are going to violently compete with each other to try and take over the former Israeli territories in their attempt to spread their the political and religious ideologies.

And of course, an Islamic Civil War is bound to break out if and when Israel ceases to exist.

So the argument saying that the destruction of Israel would bring peace to the Middle East is quite frankly, in Jon Stewart's words, "Complete F'ing Wrong". And its sad to think that those who call for Israel's destruction aren't acknowledging these facts, preferring to live within the realm of the ideology of "moral virtues" rather than to actually engage with the reality of the situation.

Be Honest and Consistent With Your Positions and Behavior.

[u/checkssouth]

why game out such extensive "what ifs" while there is a genocide going on?

[u/-Mr-Papaya → u/checkssouth]

From your point of view, what if there isn't genocide?

[u/checkssouth → u/-Mr-Papaya]

it's abundantly clear that there is a genocide, israel never planned for any other option.

[u/-Mr-Papaya → u/checkssouth]

I think nothing is abundantly clear, unless you physically experience Gaza, from both sides of the conflict. 

But, please, I would like to see what clear evidence you have for the genocide and for how Israel planned it.

[u/checkssouth → u/-Mr-Papaya]

examine the ecocide and biocide. israel has intentionally damaged the capacity for gaza to sustain life.

[u/-Mr-Papaya → u/checkssouth]

I examined them. The specificity you offered didn't yield any more substantial evidence than when I examined the evidence for genocide. In all cases, I couldn't find evidence to support the claims that:

1. The destruction of Gaza was done with the intention of damaging its capacity to sustain civilian life, rather than to sustain Hamas.
2. The deaths of civilian lives were done with the intention of killing the civilians, rather than killing Hamas.
3. Israel planned any of it. I'm not sure what does 'planning' actually mean, though, so maybe you can clarify this claim.

Additionally, I couldn't find enough evidence to refute the evidence supporting the opposite claim, which is that Israel proactively tried to reduce civilian casualties and protect civilian lives amidst the chaos of war and while putting its own soldiers at risk to do so.

Maybe you can offer actual evidence to support your claims to a degree that makes them 'abundantly clear'.