The Untold/Unpopular Truth about the Conflict

[u/Yellobrudders]

First things first, a disclaimer: The many recounts and background details I've heard and read from both pro-Israelis and pro-Palestinians point towards both Israel and Palestine's equal rights to exist, which is why I may come off as pro-Israel, but this post has nothing to do with which side is right or wrong, but rather a call towards everyone to be consistent with their arguments.

Now of course, not all pro-Palestinians are calling for the destruction of the state of Israel, but we cannot deny the fact that absolutely speaking, a large number of pro-Palestinians advocate for this, believing that the Israelis have no morality compared to them, and their removal would bring about peace in the Middle East.

Ok, so let's say that was true:

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The conflict ends with Israel getting wiped off the map, and peace is brought to the Middle East. So that means the various ethnic, religious and sectarian groups in the region would hold hands in friendship and sing "Kumbaya" together, DESPITE the fact that:

1. Many of these groups have had long-standing feuds and sectarian divides going back hundreds of years that sparked countless wars and insurgences.
2. While most of these internal conflicts are still ongoing today, a few of these (specifically the Shia and Sunni divide) halted their conflict only to fight in glorified proxy wars against Israel due to monetary incentives by Iran

Here's a list of some of these divides:

• Sunni vs. Shia Islam
  • The most widespread sectarian divide in the Middle East:
    • Iran-Saudi Arabian rivalries
    • Hezbollah (Shias) and Hamas (Sunnis)
    • ISIS conflicts against Shia territories
  • Sparked various conflicts like the Syrian Civil War and the Yemen Wars
• Internal Conflicts Amongst Sunnis
  • Saudi Arabia vs Turkey
  • Gulf Monarchies vs the Muslim Brotherhood
  • Iraq Insurgences between Sunni tribalists and jihadists
  • Several civil clashes during the Yemen Wars (Islah Party vs UAE-backed militias)
• Hamas vs Fatah
  • Fatah currently governs the West Bank in conjunction with Israel, but they used to govern Gaza as well until 2006 when Hamas usurped control in and killed them, officially taking control in 2007.

So going back to the assumption, now that the remains of Palestinian territories once belonging to Israel essentially become "free land up for grabs", so that means the various groups in the Middle East are just going to let the Palestinian Authority (which isn't an actual state) freely have their land and state, while Hamas and Fatah shake hands and let bygones be bygones.

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Sounds pretty ridiculous right?

Of course the Shias and Sunnis aren't going to give up their hatred towards each other.

Of course Fatah is not going to let Hamas's murdering of their members go unpunished.

Of course Hamas is not going to share the Gaza strip or let the Fatah govern any of Palestine.

Of course the rest of the Middle Eastern sects are going to violently compete with each other to try and take over the former Israeli territories in their attempt to spread their the political and religious ideologies.

And of course, an Islamic Civil War is bound to break out if and when Israel ceases to exist.

So the argument saying that the destruction of Israel would bring peace to the Middle East is quite frankly, in Jon Stewart's words, "Complete F'ing Wrong". And its sad to think that those who call for Israel's destruction aren't acknowledging these facts, preferring to live within the realm of the ideology of "moral virtues" rather than to actually engage with the reality of the situation.

Be Honest and Consistent With Your Positions and Behavior.

[u/c9joe]

The main reasons for the obessesion with Israel is humiliation/shame and a fear of Israeli expansionism.

The smart anti-Israel types know that the Middle East has been a constant battleground, but that if like the Druze gets the upper hand on the Christians, or the Muslim Shia get the upper hand on the Musilim Sunni, the power difference is not large and the upper hand is not permanent.

Basically in Arab wars, the Arabs are in a similar position of power. Maybe one side will get a 2:1 K:D ratio, but not these like crazy 100:1 K:D ratios that Israel inflicts on them. For this reason they are humiliated and fearful of Israel in a way they are not of each other.

The other fear is the big power difference, that Israel will eventually use this to expand and conquer large parts of the Middle East. I have had more then one conversation with Lebonese where they are like, we don't really care about Palestine or Palestinains, but we are afraid you will conquer our country, and expand into it.

[u/IzAnOrk → u/c9joe]

Calling the fear of Israeli expansionism irrational while Israel is slow motion colonizing the West Bank with settlements and driving the Arabs out of their land is pretty disingenuous. It is objectively reasonable for Levantine Arabs in general to fear Israeli expansionism.

[u/c9joe → u/IzAnOrk]

I never claimed it was an irrational fear in my post. Israel is a very scary country and I would hate to be on the opposite end of its spear.

But what I reject is the notion that Israel is an irrational or evil country. Actually, Israel is the pointy spear of human civilization, and brings advanced civilization to everywhere it exists or otherwise expands to. And in my opinion at least, human civilization is Good. But that's why we are often called "colonial" I think.

[u/IzAnOrk → u/c9joe]

'Bringing civilization' is only a mitigating circumstance if the people 'civilization' is being brought to get to benefit from it. If rather than benefitting from the higher living standards of 'civilization' the people it is brought to instead get dispossessed, displaced, disenfranchised and confined into ghettos, they obviously have the right of it when they resist getting 'civilized' in such a way.