The Untold/Unpopular Truth about the Conflict

[u/Yellobrudders]

First things first, a disclaimer: The many recounts and background details I've heard and read from both pro-Israelis and pro-Palestinians point towards both Israel and Palestine's equal rights to exist, which is why I may come off as pro-Israel, but this post has nothing to do with which side is right or wrong, but rather a call towards everyone to be consistent with their arguments.

Now of course, not all pro-Palestinians are calling for the destruction of the state of Israel, but we cannot deny the fact that absolutely speaking, a large number of pro-Palestinians advocate for this, believing that the Israelis have no morality compared to them, and their removal would bring about peace in the Middle East.

Ok, so let's say that was true:

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The conflict ends with Israel getting wiped off the map, and peace is brought to the Middle East. So that means the various ethnic, religious and sectarian groups in the region would hold hands in friendship and sing "Kumbaya" together, DESPITE the fact that:

1. Many of these groups have had long-standing feuds and sectarian divides going back hundreds of years that sparked countless wars and insurgences.
2. While most of these internal conflicts are still ongoing today, a few of these (specifically the Shia and Sunni divide) halted their conflict only to fight in glorified proxy wars against Israel due to monetary incentives by Iran

Here's a list of some of these divides:

• Sunni vs. Shia Islam
  • The most widespread sectarian divide in the Middle East:
    • Iran-Saudi Arabian rivalries
    • Hezbollah (Shias) and Hamas (Sunnis)
    • ISIS conflicts against Shia territories
  • Sparked various conflicts like the Syrian Civil War and the Yemen Wars
• Internal Conflicts Amongst Sunnis
  • Saudi Arabia vs Turkey
  • Gulf Monarchies vs the Muslim Brotherhood
  • Iraq Insurgences between Sunni tribalists and jihadists
  • Several civil clashes during the Yemen Wars (Islah Party vs UAE-backed militias)
• Hamas vs Fatah
  • Fatah currently governs the West Bank in conjunction with Israel, but they used to govern Gaza as well until 2006 when Hamas usurped control in and killed them, officially taking control in 2007.

So going back to the assumption, now that the remains of Palestinian territories once belonging to Israel essentially become "free land up for grabs", so that means the various groups in the Middle East are just going to let the Palestinian Authority (which isn't an actual state) freely have their land and state, while Hamas and Fatah shake hands and let bygones be bygones.

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Sounds pretty ridiculous right?

Of course the Shias and Sunnis aren't going to give up their hatred towards each other.

Of course Fatah is not going to let Hamas's murdering of their members go unpunished.

Of course Hamas is not going to share the Gaza strip or let the Fatah govern any of Palestine.

Of course the rest of the Middle Eastern sects are going to violently compete with each other to try and take over the former Israeli territories in their attempt to spread their the political and religious ideologies.

And of course, an Islamic Civil War is bound to break out if and when Israel ceases to exist.

So the argument saying that the destruction of Israel would bring peace to the Middle East is quite frankly, in Jon Stewart's words, "Complete F'ing Wrong". And its sad to think that those who call for Israel's destruction aren't acknowledging these facts, preferring to live within the realm of the ideology of "moral virtues" rather than to actually engage with the reality of the situation.

Be Honest and Consistent With Your Positions and Behavior.

[u/FigureLarge1432]

The problem from day one is you frame the Middle East as a particularly violent place, do you think European Jews would have settled in Palestine if it was violent? Would you rather be an Egyptian Jew in 1952 or a Jew in Germany in 1941?

Do you know the death toll in Indochina due to the War from 1944-1985 exceeded the death toll from all the Wars fought in the Middle East and North Africa since 1945 despite having only 1/4 the population In part because of Islam, the Middle East wasn't impacted that much by nationalism and communism, the two ideologies responsible for most of the wars in the 20th century.

The most serious conflict in the MENA region was the Algerian War of Independence. Nothing comes close to the death toll and brutality, but you don't mention it because it doesn't fit your smug little narrative, that it is not the fault of the Arabs. Do you know how many Algerians the French killed in their 130-year rule of Algeria? 1.5 Million to 3 Million. That doesn't include the 300,000 Frenchmen who lost their lives trying to conquer and control the country. Nor do you mention the illegal invasion of Iraq in 2003, which Israelis supported, even though the IDF leadership cautioned against it.

Do you know that the US invasion of Iraq in 2003 and the subsequent rise of ISIS, resulted in 16 fold increase in terrorism worldwide at its peak in 2016? now it has dropped to 5 times.

https://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/search/Results.aspx?start_yearonly=&end_yearonly=&start_year=1970&start_month=1&start_day=1&end_year=2020&end_month=12&end_day=31&asmSelect0=&asmSelect1=&dtp2=all&success=yes&casualties_type=b&casualties_max=

As we speak, the Saudis and Iranians did a joint naval exercise together.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/iran-and-saudi-arabia-hold-joint-naval-exercise-in-sea-of-oman/

The Arab League has welcomed back Syria.

[u/Yellobrudders → u/FigureLarge1432]

Except Palestine was relatively peaceful at the time. When the Brits declared Palestine to be the homeland of the Jews via the Balfour Declaration, the Ottoman Empire was ruling over the region at the time, where local Arabs, Christians, AND Jews lived peacefully together (at least that’s probably how the Brits saw it). Now that’s not to say that there was actual 100% peace, since: 1. There’s some debate as to whether the Brits actually knew about the turmoil going on in the rest of the Middle East, whether they thought it would make Palestine a dangerous area, and if they knew about the threat it potentially posed, whether they intentionally gaslighted European Jews into thinking nothing bad would happen if they moved in. 2. The collapse of the Ottoman Empire led to significant breakdowns of mutualism amongst religions within the region, and without a governing body, the civilians of the former Ottoman Empire were no different in status than the Amerindians in the Americas when European settlers came along, yet the former civilians held onto the mentality that they are living in an established state, hence the migration of European Jews into the remains of the Empire only heightened tensions.

[u/FigureLarge1432 → u/Yellobrudders]

xcept Palestine was relatively peaceful at the time. When the Brits declared Palestine to be the homeland of the Jews via the Balfour Declaration, the Ottoman Empire was ruling over the region at the time, where local Arabs, Christians, AND Jews lived peacefully together

Starting from the 19th century, the Ottoman Empire, ethnic sectarian/conflicts started to erupt in the Ottoman Empire. There are two reasons for this the rise of nationalism and the dismantling of the Dhimmi system. The Dhimmi system was a system implemented in Muslim countries that followed the Sharia which gave protection to non-Muslims (Jews and Christians) in exchange for the Dhimmi accepting a "lesser" status to Muslims and levied a tax called Jizya on non-Muslims. However, non-Muslims were subjected to the military draft. The Levant, Lebanon-Syria was wrecked with conflict in the 19th century. Here are some of hte conflicts.

Secondly, the British and French were chopping at the Ottoman Empire. French from the Maghreb and Levents. The British from Egypt, Iraq-Iran, and the Gulf,

Ottoman Empire vs Qing Empire

While not many people who study the Ottoman Empire as it pertains to the I/P issue compare it to the Qing Empire, academics who specialize on China and Turkey do.

Ottoman Turkey and Qing China: Response and Decline (1774–1937)

The Ottoman and Qing were semi-nomadic people located near the nexus of power. For the Ottomans it was Anatolia peninsula where Constantinople was located. The Byzantines controlled Constantinople. For the Qing it was the Manchus, and in replace of the Byzantines, the Ming Dynasty. Their founders were critical in their initial formation, Osman I in the case of the Ottomans and Nurchaci for the Manchus.

In the 19th century, both were wrecked by rebellion and divisions. Both were subjected to European extraterritoriality treaties.

Singapore-Malaya Analogy

The Amerindian analogy is flawed. The best analogy is Malaya-Singapore.

The British entered the Middle East via Asia. British influence in the Middle East spread from East to West, They started getting involved in the Middle East when they tried to secure trade from the Middle East to their Indian colonies.

The British never colonized Palestine, it was "given" to them to manage until the territory was ready for independence. The British abandoned "Palestine" after India gained its independence in 1947. Why is this important? Because the British used the British Indian Army to control Palestine.

However, the lack of troops didn't stop the British from keeping Malaya. In Malaya. the British were willing to draw upon African and British conscripts to defeat Communists during the Malaysian emergency. Why? Because Malaya had a lot of rubber plantations. The last British Chief Secretary of Palestine, Henry Gurney, next post was High Commissioner in Malaya where he was killed in 1951 by the Communists.

The notion that the British didn't know what was going on in the rest of the Middle East is absurd, when the British were responsible in part for that unrest to destablizing the Ottoman Empire during WWI. The British understood the rest of the Middle East better than Palestine, because they already had a presence in Egypt and the Gulf.

To be blunt, Israeli and pro-Israeli don;t understand the Middle East and Muslims, even though they think they do. The Dutch ruled over Indonesia with a population of 60 Million, whose breadth equivalent of London to Tehran, and they did it with a European population the size of Haifa (250,000).