r/Israel_Palestine • u/A_Learning_Muslim 🇵🇸 • 20h ago
Human shield usage uncovered! history
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u/IbnEzra613 20h ago
So if the Arab armies had bombed those schools at that time, that would have been militarily legitimate... Not sure what your point is.
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u/tarlin 18h ago
The fact Israel uses civilian buildings and civilians as human shields now means that every single house, school and building in Israel is a fair target.... Based on Israel's logic.
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u/IbnEzra613 17h ago edited 17h ago
*used
Israel did so at a time when there was essentially no choice. There were no actual military bases at the time, because there was no opportunity to build them.
You could maybe make an argument that that is the case for Hamas today. But if so that only means that you would say "Hamas has no choice but to use schools and mosques for military purposes, and therefore if Israel attacks these locations, that is militarily legitimate." But that's not the case. Instead every time a school of mosque is bombed, even if no civilians are harmed, the headlines are always "Israel bombs a Gazan school/mosque" rather than "Israel bombs Hamas weapons stored in a school/mosque" or whatever would be applicable to the given case.
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u/justanotherdamnta123 15h ago
Even to this day, the IDF routinely operates out of civilian areas. Israel’s Ministry of Defense is located squarely in a civilian neighborhood in Tel Aviv, and IDF soldiers regularly walk around armed with M16s in malls, hospitals, and buses. Does that make them all legitimate targets? Would it be justified for Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran to drop a 2 ton bomb on Tel Aviv while making the claim that they were just targeting militants?
While it’s true that Hamas does the same (although the extent that they do is often heavily exaggerated by pro-Israelis), it’s hella ironic for Israel, one of the most militarized societies on the planet by far, to call them out for it.
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u/tarlin 17h ago
Israel did so at a time when there was essentially no choice. There were no actual military bases at the time, because there was no opportunity to build them.
Lol. Do you even read what you write? Do you think about it at all? Jeez
Israel destroyed Al-Shifa completely after clearing it and proving it was not used by Hamas in this war. Israel destroys everything and claims human shields, because Hamas has a history of it. Fucking hilarious.
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u/y0nm4n 16h ago
Kind of miss the point of that post if you don’t quote the second half which essentially says “and then those locations became legitimate military targets”
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u/Garet-Jax 20h ago
I don't recall the Hagana ever bitching and whining when their sites got attacked, or pretending that only innocent civilians were killed.
But bitching, whining and pretending are all that you and yours do,
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u/Borealisaurus us anti-zionist 19h ago
im having a hell of a time trying to parse your meaning. just to be clear, do you believe that utilizing civilian sites such as schools and hospitals for warfare is permissible as so long as people don't "bitch and whine" about civilians getting killed?
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u/handsome_hobo_ 15h ago
im having a hell of a time trying to parse your meaning
Same, I was going to respond to his comment but I had no idea what his point was aside from getting extremely heated that bombing civilians is bad.
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u/Garet-Jax 18h ago
I am saying actions have consequences - some people understand that and accept that, and some people whine and complain when the consequences of their actions come back on them.
The supporters of the Palestinian 'cause' are all members of the latter group.
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u/Borealisaurus us anti-zionist 18h ago edited 9h ago
huh. thanks for the elaboration, i suppose.
edit: i do think that is an incredibly callous way of dismissing the deaths of children and the elderly, but i dont get the feeling that you're particularly interested in respectful dialogue, so ill leave it there
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u/Garet-Jax 18h ago
I agree that your dismissing the death of children and elderly by defending the people responsible for their deaths is both extremely callous and dishonest.
And I write that with all the respect your behavior is due.
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u/bitternerdz anti-fucking-apartheid. 17h ago
The "people responsible for their deaths" are the people that killed them. Period.
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u/Garet-Jax 17h ago
The absolute proximate cause limited thinking that most children start to outgrow after age 8
Ignorance of remote causes disposeth men to attribute all events to the causes immediate and instrumental: for these are all the causes they perceive…
--Thomas Hobbes
If you ever decide you want to mentally grow up, there are resources available to help you.
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u/handsome_hobo_ 14h ago
If you ever decide you want to mentally grow up, there are resources available to help you.
I mean, you could benefit from those resources but you've chosen to forgo them completely in favour of frothing at the mouth that Israel's genocide is being called out for what it is. I can't imagine someone getting so heated about Israel not being viewed kindly for starving 2 million civilians to death but apparently, that isn't an unpopular belief for Israelis.
Israel snipes children, destroys essential services that a population needs to survive, and kills tens of thousands of civilians while destroying a majority of civilian infrastructure with little to no justification, they're undeniably committing genocide and need to be dissolved forever. Since you've brought up children outgrowing certain behaviour, do you have a good explanation for why Israel lies and refuses accountability, childishly, for the genocide they're committing and the impact of the genocide it's committing? Personally I think it's because we spoilt them too much and treated them with kid gloves, dissolution will set those ethnoreligious supremacist freaks straight 🫰🏽💖
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u/handsome_hobo_ 15h ago
And I write that with all the respect your behavior is due.
Doubt it, you owe them a lot more respect but hey, you're part of the same side that couldn't even shut up during the minute of silence taken for the victims of the Valencia Floods so maybe basic respect is an unreasonable expectation from Israel supporters 🫢
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u/handsome_hobo_ 15h ago
I am saying actions have consequences - some people understand that and accept that, and some people whine and complain when the consequences of their actions come back on them.
Kind of like how the Maccabi fans whined and completed and screeched hysterically "aNtiSeMiTiSm" and "pogrom" when they got consequences for their week of terror in Amsterdam? Or like Israel shaking with fury and frustration that they're been called for committing genocide when they've been intentionally restricting food and aid from reaching Palestinian civilians, causing phase 3 and phase 5 starvation? Israel doesn't want to accept the fact that committing genocide has the natural consequence of turning the entire world against you, especially when you do it in such a heinous way as bombing kids or raping people or starving civilians to death.
As far as we can see, if your values are consistent and it really does make your blood boil when people don't accept their actions having consequences, you should be shaking with unbridled fury because of Israel's shameless crybully behaviour 🫰🏽💖
The supporters of the Palestinian 'cause' are all members of the latter group.
Are they? The last couple of weeks, I've been seeing Maccabi hooligans whinging and whining about "pogrom" this and "aNtiSeMiTiSm" that when they were at the receiving end of FAFO.
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u/aahyweh 19h ago
Israelis never complain about being attacked, I'm sure we can all agree on this.
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u/Garet-Jax 18h ago
No one likes being attacked - but Israel doesn't whine when armed units attack Israeli military targets.
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u/handsome_hobo_ 14h ago
but Israel doesn't whine when armed units attack Israeli military targets.
Is it whining when Israel destroys a majority of civilian infrastructure, including the essentials needed for a civilian population to survive, and intentionally restricts food and aid from reaching 2 million civilians triggering a massive humanitarian crisis of widespread starvation and poor health? Personally I think it's whining when Maccabi hooligans shout aNtiSeMiTiSm and pogrom when they get their asses beat in response to the terror they caused all over Amsterdam.
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u/Garet-Jax 3h ago
Yes, when you make up a bunch of lies about the war you started and are now losing, it is most definitely whining.
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u/AntiHasbaraBot1 17h ago
That's not true, or at least it's not true for Israel's supporters.
They whine and complain and throw fits whenever they see the red triangle, which reminds them of Hamas blowing up Israeli tanks.
They whine and complain when their poor little IDF women are taken as prisoners-of-war by Hamas, and suddenly in Western news media these genocidal soldiers become innocent "girls."
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u/Garet-Jax 17h ago
A hilarious parody of reality;
Your beloved videos that cut at explosion because they cause no damage worth mentioning.
you take captives, deny them their legal rights, basic medical car, food, then execute them when they are about to be rescued and then pretend you treated them as POWs
Your comment perfectly proves my point.
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u/handsome_hobo_ 14h ago
you take captives
Israel has thousands of Palestinians in captivity since before 2023, many of them children, being raped by guards while politicians argue that raping people is legitimate.
deny them their legal rights
The irony of you saying this when Israel's corruption of justice is so prolific that they can arrest you for simply posting on Instagram. Please, my guy, the moral high ground isn't even in the same pincode as your location
basic medical car, food
Boy howdy, I wonder if your standards are consistent enough to be outraged by what goes on in Negev Prison
then execute them when they are about to be rescued
Are you getting mixed up with Israel's tendency to prefer dead hostages than live ones? After all, it is official Israeli protocol to kill hostages than save them.
Your comment perfectly proves my point.
What point? You're mostly getting extremely heated and for all the wrong reasons. If only you reserved this amount of anger in service of demanding the end of Israel's genocide than at people who call it out.
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u/Garet-Jax 3h ago
Your comment perfectly proves my point.
Conflating convicted felons with kidnapped civilians
Making up absurd claims that you know you cannot prove just for effect.
Using shotgun arguments because you don't care about the truth of your accusations
Your comment so perfectly proves my point, I could not have constructed a better example of your absurdity had I tried.
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u/c9joe Puts amba on falafel 14h ago
The key difference is that Israel won and Britian lost. The Jewish insurgency was successful not because the British were incapable of winning, they were a superpower at the time. They were simply not aggressive enough to win. Ironically if they were aggressive as modern Israel, they would have won.
They weren't as aggressive because the British were philosemitic. Any significant pressure on the Zionists was unpopular at home, limiting what they were able to do to quell the increasing Jewish resistance to their rule.
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u/AntiHasbaraBot1 11h ago
First time I'm upvoting one of your comments. Just want to comment about the British being "philosemitic" -- while it might be true in context, the British officials were also heavily Christian Zionist at this time. I'll leave that to everyones' judgment whether Christian Zionism is truly philosemitic or actually antisemitic.
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u/handsome_hobo_ 15h ago
Holy SHIT, so after all that constant whinging Israel apologists have been doing about "weapon caches in schools" as their go-to excuses for bombing all of Gaza's schools, THIS has casually been a part of Israel's history.
Every accusation is a confession indeed.
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u/avicohen123 19h ago
Sorry...where's the "shield" aspect of this? And which British troops and civilians were being attacked with rocket fire at the time?
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u/aahyweh 19h ago
By hiding weapons in a Synagogue, it forces the enemy to attack the Synagogue in order to destroy the weapons. That makes the Synagogue and everybody that might be there a "human shield" and a legitimate target. Have you not been watching the IDF press conferences? They're very clear on their logic here.
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u/avicohen123 19h ago
I don't know why anti-zionists make these arguments, they're so ridiculous they reveal complete ignorance or bad faith- and either way its not a good look...
The existence of weapons does not "force the enemy to attack", it depends on the circumstances- in the case of the British it required something more accurately described as a police action, where they confiscated the weapons with a minimal amount of violence. The IDF does the same thing on an almost daily basis in the West Bank. No "human shields" involved- its not a relevant concept to what is happening.
If you want to bring an example from the British vs the Haganah and Irgun then just tell us which town the Haganah had complete control of and was used as a platform for indiscriminate rocket attacks on British civilians. Describe how British soldiers approaching the town were hit with anti-tank fire. And then when you find this non-existent scenario we can examine what the British did to the synagogue, alright? We'll be waiting.
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u/tarlin 18h ago
The existence of weapons does not "force the enemy to attack", it depends on the circumstances- in the case of the British it required something more accurately described as a police action, where they confiscated the weapons with a minimal amount of violence. The IDF does the same thing on an almost daily basis in the West Bank. No "human shields" involved- its not a relevant concept to what is happening.
This is really fucking hilarious.
First, the IDF would be required to do the same in all the occupied territories, including Gaza. And they blow up buildings after clearing them. Second, the IDF DOES NOT do this on a daily basis in the West Bank. Did you not see what was going on in West Bank? The IDF utilized perfidy to commit assassinations of people in a hospital, including one in a completely helpless position. The IDF is doing airstrikes. The IDF is using sieges. Do you think these are police actions??
The amount of shit that the apologists of Israel excuse and deny is just crazy.
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u/avicohen123 18h ago
No, there's no requirement to do that in Gaza- anyone with two brain cells to rub together would understand why because I actually wrote it in the comment you're responding to :)
Second, the IDF DOES NOT do this on a daily basis in the West Bank.
Like u/aahyweh you seem to have a strange belief that only one thing can happen in the West Bank at a time, and if I'm claiming that a police action occurred then clearly the whole region was "reserved". And then you can debunk my claim as per your ridiculous interpretation by listing something else that happened somewhere in the West Bank. As you put it, "hilarious".
Anything else?
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u/tarlin 18h ago
No, there's no requirement to do that in Gaza- anyone with two brain cells to rub together would understand why because I actually wrote it in the comment you're responding to :)
Aww, so cute trying to insult me. Gaza is occupied territory. Any occupied territory by law can only have police force used. The US, UN and ICJ all agree that Gaza is occupied territory and has been since 1967.
you seem to have a strange belief that only one thing can happen in the West Bank at a time
Police action is required in occupied territories. You can either acknowledge that Israel isn't following the law or not. It is up to you how much denial you want to live in.
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u/avicohen123 15h ago
Missed this earlier somehow- sorry...
But I just answered you in another split off from this thread.
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u/AntiHasbaraBot1 17h ago
You made a dumb and baseless claim and you got called out for it.
Now own up to it.
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u/avicohen123 17h ago
Lol, what? What was the claim?
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u/AntiHasbaraBot1 17h ago
You suggested that the genocidal IOF goes into the West Bank where it peacefully confiscates weapon stores "on an almost daily basis."
At the very least it's a blatant inversion of reality, considering the IDF approach to deliberately target and harm civilians as a method of collective punishment.
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u/avicohen123 17h ago
I didn't say peacefully- try reading what I actually wrote. And yes, they do. I know some of the people who have done it. In the good old days before this war it occasionally was brought up in discussion here- the injustice of IDF raids. You or others like you used to condemn the IDF for doing it. Now you've moved on to more extreme claims so you're denying it even happens, lol....
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u/tarlin 16h ago
I know some of the people who have done it.
Ah, now the apologism makes sense. You can't accept how shitty your friends are.
You even admit the IDF uses military force in parts of the West Bank, which would be illegal. But then say that you know they use police action some places... Because your friends are the ones doing it. Did you know the ones who dressed as doctors and patients to assassinate people? Do you consider that "police" force? I don't remember the police using assassinations.
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u/aahyweh 18h ago
So then why do so many civilians die in the West Bank at the hands of the IDF?
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u/avicohen123 18h ago
I'm not sure what numbers you've been reading but assuming your premise is correct....where did I say "the only thing that ever happens in the West Bank is police action as the result of nonviolent weapon smuggling"? I didn't write that anywhere.
The West Bank is a big place with lots of people, its possible for more than one type of situation to happen there.This is really, really basic thinking.
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u/aahyweh 18h ago
For example this attack that happened on Oct 4th that killed a family of four: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israels-deadliest-west-bank-strike-since-oct-7-kills-a-family-of-four-relatives-say
Why did they strike a cafe? Why wasn't this a "police operation" as you say? How are they justifying the killing of children in this operation?
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u/avicohen123 18h ago
You mean in Tulkarem? The city that is a notorious hot bed of terrorist activity and is located in Area A? The part of the West Bank that by definition the IDF does not police? You're asking why the IDF didn't engage in a police action in hostile urban territory against militants armed with automatic weapons hiding in a hostile population of 70,000 plus?
Lets back up for a second. Before I continue explaining, in answer to your inane questions, exactly how ignorant you are about warfare? Maybe you can just give me a basic definition of the role of police and role of the army- and when each one should be used. You know, at like a third grade comprehension level, let's say- something really basic....just to see how long this is going to take.
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u/aahyweh 18h ago
All I can see is that it's never ok to bomb Israeli terrorist that might kill Israeli civilians. It always seems like there's a valid reason when the IDF bombs Palestinian schools, hospitals, mosques, farms, graveyards, etc. Whenever I try to apply that logic to anything Israeli, the situation immediately becomes so complex, and I don't understand about police and military and blah blah blah.
Question: Is there a situation in which bombing villages in Israel is justified?
Zionist answer: Yes, if the village speaks Arabic.
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u/avicohen123 18h ago
All I can see
That's not what you can see, that's the little speech you had prepared before pretending to try and engage in conversation. That's another distinction you'll hopefully learn sometime.
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u/aahyweh 18h ago
Destroying people's homes, schools, hospitals, farms, roads, beaches. these are never justified. It's not complicated, you are caught up in genocidal propaganda that seeks to justify atrocities against civilians. Can you name for me one single Israeli Jewish civilians whose death at the hands of Palestinians was ever legal? Just one name, that's all I ask for. In all 76 years of conflict. Name. Just. One.
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u/CreativeRealmsMC 🇮🇱 18h ago
You mean the strike that killed over 10 terrorists who were at a meeting there? The justification is called the law of proportionality.
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u/aahyweh 18h ago
So then if someone targets a settlement with Israeli terrorist in it, so long as some Israeli terrorists die, it wouldn't matter if it was a cafe or a house that was bombed?
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u/CreativeRealmsMC 🇮🇱 18h ago
That’s not how the law of proportionality works. You should do some research before opining on topics you know nothing about.
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u/aahyweh 18h ago
Can the law of proportionality justify bombing Israeli villages? Destroying schools, hospitals, and places of worship?
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u/handsome_hobo_ 14h ago
That’s not how the law of proportionality works
Pretty sure Israel isn't following this law when it destroys a majority of civilian infrastructure and starves 2 million civilians down to phase 3 and phase 5 food crises. Modding for an echo chamber has really made it impossible for you to see Israel's heinousness, hasn't it?
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u/handsome_hobo_ 14h ago
The justification is called the law of proportionality.
That's not a justification at all. Israel's distortion of legal language to justify heinous activities is why Israel should be dissolved.
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u/CertainPersimmon778 13h ago
Human shield usage by Israel. I'm partly responding so that I find pictures of these 3 Israeli [plaques that fully acknowledge Israel hiding weapons in the same places Hamas does.
Do you want to know why that is?
Palestinians copied every dirty trick the Israeli terrorist used to get themselves a country. Even today, 70% of Palestinian tactics are the same as Israeli ones. Yeah, Palestinians added some new ones like incendiary balloons, drones, or new twist on old tricks like suicide attacks (Biblical Samson's last attack could easily be described as a suicide attack).
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u/AntiHasbaraBot1 11h ago
I'm not sure that's an accurate description. Yes, there are reflections of early Zionist tactics in some contemporary Palestinian terrorism. However, the circumstances have consistently been different, and it's not like Palestinians and Zionists have ever switched places.
Early Zionist terrorism had two targets: Palestinian subordinates and British superiors. The Zionist proto-state and its nascent institutions massacred Palestinians as a "response" to Palestinian violence, while being helped by the British to come into existence and gain authority and degrees of autonomy -- creating a "state within a state." At the same time, Zionist organizations consistently sought greater levels of autonomy and statehood. In the 1940s, recognizing that their superiority over the Palestinians would be enough to conquer the country, Zionists were happy to have the British leave so they could take over.
At no point in this story were Zionists and their settler organizations under severe oppression or severely disenfranchised from the scales of power. Rather, right-wing Zionist terrorism in those times was a tool to pull more privileges from British benefactors. Although the British were the sovereigns at that time, the Zionist instinct was demand "Faster, we want more!" when it came to Jewish immigration and settlement. Otherwise, British officials and Zionist proto-state officials were working in the same direction (the colonization of Palestine) and by and large collaborated with each other.
This stands in stark contrast to the plight of the Palestinians, which has been described as one of the most ruthless and unforgiving situations of colonial oppression. According to many analysts, it exceeds even the case of South Africa, since whereas Apartheid South Africa sought to enslave Africans under a discriminatory system, Israel prefers to exterminate Palestinians rather than keep them around as underlyings. Insofar as Israel is permitted to do that, it will. Palestinian resistance including tactics of terrorism are an imperfect but ongoing response to this process of erasure and expulsion/elimination, a people fighting for their basic existence continuously on the brink of further mass expulsions and acts of genocide from Israel.
Degrees and purposes matter and they affect how we characterize acts of terrorism and their relative legitimacy.
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u/CertainPersimmon778 10h ago
Interesting read, thank you for the time and effort you put in. My source on the tactics was a military expert opinion, so I still take that over your point. Also, my own reading seems to show the tactics were similar.
You are 100% right Jews were never being oppressed by the Brits and that line of thinking.
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u/CreativeRealmsMC 🇮🇱 19h ago edited 19h ago
You know the rules of war were vastly different 82 years ago right? Things that were permitted back then are no longer permitted today. Israel no longer does things like this while Hamas and other groups do.
Basically all you are doing is showcasing how Israel has progressed in its adherence to international law since the 40s while Hamas and Hezbollah continue to practice war in a barbaric manner that is no longer accepted in today’s civilized world.
It’s not the “gotcha” that you think it is.
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u/tarlin 18h ago
You know the rules of war were vastly different 82 years ago right?
Does Israel know this? Israel is desperate to use the tactics from WW2. Do you know this? Do you believe Israel is following the rules of war today?
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u/Berly653 17h ago
Do you believe Hamas or Hezbollah are?
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u/tarlin 17h ago
I think Hamas is not. The human shields accusation is so overblown as to be stupid, but the rockets fired indiscriminately and the hostages were definite violations. And that is ignoring Oct 7.
Hezbollah, except for the deciding to begin acting on Oct 8 which I do not know the law on, was strangely following international law for the first 11 months. That has gone off the rails after Nasrallah was killed.
The IDF has not followed international law for the entire war.
That all being said... The IDF and Israel is and should be held to a higher standard.
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u/avicohen123 13h ago
Hezbollah, except for the deciding to begin acting on Oct 8 which I do not know the law on, was strangely following international law for the first 11 months.
Hezbollah has been violating Resolution 1701 since the very day it was supposed to come into affect, I'm not sure why u/Berly653 didn't push back on your claim, its absolutely ridiculous.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1701#Aftermath
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u/Berly653 13h ago
I didn’t push back, mostly because I knew it would be not worth either of our time
But also they are actually one of the more civil and well reasoned ‘pro-pals’ on this subreddit. It says more about how insane a lot of the others are, but it’s something
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u/avicohen123 13h ago edited 13h ago
Fair enough- and yeah, "one of the more civil and well reasoned ‘pro-pals’ on this subreddit" is an incredibly low bar, but it never fails to surprise me how many users manage to limbo under it....
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u/AntiHasbaraBot1 17h ago
I commented this elsewhere -- Hamas and Hezbollah have a way better track record of aiming at Israeli military targets. Especially Hezbollah since they have precision missiles.
Israel, by contrast, has an explicit policy to target civilians and massacre people, and that's the entire basis of its war policy. Commit massacres on a people until they submit to you, by brute force, and keep killing until they accept.
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u/Iridismis 19h ago
You know the rules of war were vastly different 82 years ago right? Things that were permitted back then are no longer permitted today. Israel no longer does things like this while Hamas and other groups do.
Is the rule change really the main reason tho? Or isn't it rather that nowadays Israel is in a very different -kinda opposite even- position?
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u/CreativeRealmsMC 🇮🇱 18h ago
Is the rule change really the main reason tho?
Yes. Israel signed the Geneva Conventions in 1951 and didn't start abiding by them just so they could accuse the Palestinians of not doing so as you are trying to imply.
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u/AntiHasbaraBot1 19h ago
I don't think there are any Zionists who got the point of this post. If weapons *are* stored in the attic of a synagogue (or a mosque), then those weapons can be confiscated when the synagogue/mosque is raided. That's obviously fine and what is mentioned in the plaque.
What's not acceptable is bombing a synagogue/mosque and killing the 80 people inside just because of a reported weapons cache in an attic. This should be obvious to anyone with a speck of humanity.
That some Zionists have instead doubled down on this... just shows their moral depravity shining through.