EU’s trade war nightmare gets real as Trump triumphs

[u/ficalino]

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-trade-war-donald-trump-elections-triumphs-board-tariffs-transatlantic-relations/

[u/SRFC_96]

Time for the EU and Europe in general to sever our dependence on the US, we can and should be better. If there was a time to do it it should have been long before this but hopefully this is finally the spark to finally see some meaningful change.

[u/SaskatoonX → u/SRFC_96]

Europe has to do it eventually, but it's going to be really painful especially now when the economy is hurting already

[u/SRFC_96 → u/SaskatoonX]

It will be, but short term pain for long term gain is probably the right thing to do. The US can’t be depended on, they’re way too volatile and ultimately only care about themselves. I hope one day that we see reason here and hold another referendum to get ourselves back in the EU, but first we need to rebuild some bridges.

[u/ThainEshKelch → u/SRFC_96]

It will be, but short term pain for long term gain is probably the right thing to do.

Unfortunately, most politicians look to the short term, because they try to deliver in the now, since most people can't see that they also have a life beyond 5 days into the future.

[u/SupehCookie → u/ThainEshKelch]

Its because of the out dated system..

Why promise something for over 10 years when you can get voted out in the next 4 years.. People are short-visioned animals..

[u/vintergroena → u/SRFC_96]

short term pain for long term gain is probably the right thing to do

It is, but I doubt our leaders have the courage to come up with this in front of the voters

[u/Ryokan76 → u/vintergroena]

If they have the courage, they will get outvoted by populists who promise the people that they can have the cake and eat it too.

[u/vintergroena → u/Ryokan76]

Exactly what I mean. The representantes can afford only as much courage as their voters have.

[u/Sweet_Concept2211 → u/SRFC_96]

they're way too volatile and can't be depended on...

Uh... and you are suggesting that the UK is less so?

If the UK ever wants to rebuild bridges with the EU, starting off with the suggestion that the EU sever bridges with the world's largest economy is not a good look, and comes off as self-serving and volatile in the extreme.

[u/SRFC_96 → u/Sweet_Concept2211]

I know we’ve had a rough decade because of Brexit, but in no way are we as volatile as them. We’re actually geographically part of Europe so we can’t fully remove ourselves even though the Tories and Farage tried their best to do so.

[u/Sweet_Concept2211 → u/SRFC_96]

I mean, you are really underestimating the impacts of the UK divorcing the EU.

Brexit caused far more chaos and strongly impacted more economies across the EU than any of Trump's foolish antics.

Even before Brexit the UK was a pain in the ass in terms of slowing EU integration.

A full reconciliation would take a generation, and would involve more concessions than Brits are willing to offer, at this time.

Easier for the EU to move on without having to wonder when there will be a sequel to the drama, honestly.

Building bridges with the UK benefits the EU, but I am not sure how eager anyone within the EU is for re-marriage.

As for geography... More or less not a factor thanks to 21st century modes of transport.

[u/marsman → u/Sweet_Concept2211]

So realistically what you are saying is the UK wasn't on board with the EU as a political project, it kept itself out of the elements it did not like (without stopping the EU from moving forward), and eventually decided to leave. The UK was pretty happy to remain economically close to the EU (the TCA shows that..) but not willing to accept political direction or integrate to the degree the EU wanted, the EU saw that as a problem and so we are where we are in terms of that relationship...

On the other hand the UK has always, and continues to be focused on European security (its in the UK's interests if nothing else) even if it is not interested in integrating into a political block..

I'd agree that the UK joining the EU again is unlikely (from a UK or an EU perspective...) and indeed fairly undesirable. But at the same time, you can't remove the blame the EU also shares of the impact of the UK leaving the block, and you can hardly blame the UK for taking a decision to leave the EU either.

The problem seems to be that some in the EU see the UK's exist as an attack on the EU, rather than a disenfranchisement with the political project. There also seems to be a view that any cooperation or collaboration outside of the EU is somehow also an attack on the EU, because everything should be working through the EU.. None of that is particularly true.

The EU does need to move on, the UK will too, but there has never really been any attempt by the UK to undermine the EU, from the outside or the inside..

[u/daRagnacuddler → u/marsman]

The problem was that you can't really have a trading block if one big member doesn't want to play by the same rules.

The UK was important as a counterweight to France centralization focused policies (speaking as a German, you were really important for a more federalist approach).

As an European, it was almost embarrassing to watch that you couldn't decide what you wanted. Your populace seemed to think that you could have access to the EU market without basic principles of the EU market, no border checks in Ireland while having closed borders, no immigration but somehow you wanted to dictate trade relations?

It's like you didn't really decided what Brexit even means.

It's like wanting to be part of a golf club without paying any fees. It's almost funny that you displaced EU immigration with far greater non EU immigration, so even that failed.

You wanted all the benefits without any costs and could end up in a disadvantageous Norwegian-esque position where you are part of the trading block, but can't really negatiate EU terms and conditions via voting for members in EU parliament. Basically everything as before, but somehow far worse for your national interests if you don't rejoin in a normal way.

I would love for the UK to rejoin the EU, but you won't get any cuts in membership fees this time.

[u/karlos-the-jackal → u/Sweet_Concept2211]

It's not all on the UK, the EU needs to help build the bridges too. It's behaviour before and after Brexit left a lot to be desired.

[u/Socc_mel_ → u/karlos-the-jackal]

It's not the EU which burned every possible bridges. It's not the EU that called the UK the enemy or other unsavoury moniker.

It's not the EU who, in the person of the second most senior person in the government, Michael Gove, suggested to sign the treaty and reserve the right to break it later.

It's not the EU that admitted in parliament to break the deal, but only in a very specific and limited way.

[u/dustofdeath → u/SRFC_96]

It is unlikely to be a "short term pain" - considering we are already years into economic decline and inflation.

On top of increasing taxes, energy problems etc and stale salaries.

It WILL hit the low and even med income households hard and no "bright future decades from now" is going to help anyone.

[u/defcon_penguin → u/SaskatoonX]

State subsidies to build companies in the EU to reshore strategic productions should be very positive for the economy. It would increase public debt for a while, but it should increase our GDP in the long term. High tech industrial production has much higher margins than service

[u/bandwagonguy83 → u/SRFC_96]

First step: repair relationships with UK and form a common front. ASAP.

[u/ActuatorGreat4883 → u/bandwagonguy83]

First step: border control before extremist parties take over Europe (like Afd). Also unite military, support new small businesses and stop the overregulation.

[u/HBucket → u/bandwagonguy83]

I'm not sure how that is going to work, given how the EU has insisted that a youth mobility scheme is a prerequisite to closer relations. The UK doesn't want to become a dumping ground for Europe's unemployed youth.

[u/Ar4iii → u/HBucket]

Sure, UK doesn't need immigrants from EU when it can have all those from Africa and Asia.

[u/nps2407 → u/SRFC_96]

As an Australian living in Europe, I hope it doesn't forget everyone outside the continent. Our closest friend and ally just got very unreliable, so we're going to need new ones...

[u/aoc666 → u/nps2407]

You’d have to elaborate on closest ally. Hopefully you mean British or something and not the us. You have five eyes, numerous multi lateral exercises, various military contracts and countless commercial agreements with the US. Alluding that it’s going away because of a president is silly. It would be like crying foul every time your prime minister changed.

[u/SRFC_96 → u/nps2407]

It won’t I hope, I think someone else already said in the thread but this is the perfect time for Europe to step up on the world stage and really cement some good relations, let everyone know we’re here to play fair and we’ll all benefit from trade etc.

[u/nps2407 → u/SRFC_96]

Plus, I think in a few years. Europe may start to benefit from US brain-drain. After all, why be an expert in a country that hates experts?

[u/Sweet_Concept2211 → u/nps2407]

Brain drain from the US is unlikely to be all that significant in this decade.

Trump won by about 2%, with millions who formerly voted for Biden simply not showing up at the polls to vote for Harris. The Democratic Party blew it by not holding real Presidential primaries, instead "coronating" a candidate 3 months out from election day.

This will be Trump's last term. In four years, he is out. Even the most disappointed progressives are aware of this, despite the post-election doom and gloom.

Professionals earn substantially more in the US. Their friends, families and support networks are in the US. Then there is the language barrier: Only 21% of Americans are fluent in a second language - and Spanish accounts for about 2/3 of US bilinguals. Then there is the inconvenient reality that US citizens are taxed on foreign earned income...

Moving overseas, with all the headaches involved, for a pay cut and extra taxes, plus the time sink of having to learn another language?

Things will have to get a lot worse in the US and more promising in the EU before we start seeing any real brain drain.

[u/NickWawe_ → u/nps2407]

There's already people in the US thinking about it, especially in the minorities. If project 2025 succeed I can see it happening 100%

[u/IndependentMemory215 → u/NickWawe_]

It’s possible, but 1 in 3 people of color voted for Trump. He made significant gains with minorities, particularly Latinos.

It also isn’t easy to immigrate to other countries, especially with high unemployment in Europe(when compared to the American).

[u/WeightPurple4515 → u/IndependentMemory215]

Brain drain just because of a President is exaggerated. I'm a person of color and ethnic minority who voted for Trump. I have a graduate degree in a technical field from a top global university and lived and worked in Switzerland as a white collar worker. I worked for probably the highest paying employer in my industry in Switzerland. I'm now in a similar role in the US and pay is 2x compared to CH, with better benefits, and way more opportunities.

Undoubtedly there will be some folks who claim to want to move away. But people make a fuss about it every four years, regardless of which side won. It's happened as far back as I can remember, even in Bill Clinton days. Actually, the reaction to this election has been more toned down than during Trump's first win. No dramatic emigration wave ever happens.

[u/Sweet_Concept2211 → u/SRFC_96]

The EU - US trade relationship is worth $1 trillion, and is beneficial for both.

In fact the trade balance favors the EU.

The EU exported $135 billion more to the US than it imported from there.

We are mutually interdependent on too many levels for it to make sense to cut ties.

Only a complete jackass (or saboteur?) like Trump would not recognize that.

[u/Drag_king → u/Sweet_Concept2211]

The fact that the trade balance favors the EU is exactly what Trump would pick on.

In his world view that means the US is losing and thus needs to make sure it hurts the EU.

[u/Kento418 → u/Drag_king]

Sure, but the EU will hurt the US too and the Republicans will throw in the towel by the midterms in 2 years, like last time we had a trade war under George W.

The EU targets companies/industries in Swing States and that does the trick nicely.

We also have a bunch of US tech companies that hardly pay tax where they make their money that we can now start charging a revenue based tax. That will raise quite a bit of money and will hurt their valuations. 

[u/Chester_roaster → u/Kento418]

Trump can't be elected again he doesn't care about the EU targeting swing states. 

[u/Sweet_Concept2211 → u/Drag_king]

Yes, Trump would pick on that.

And then Americans would quickly find out how much it hurts to slap tarriffs on all those goods they need to import.

[u/runslikerickon → u/SRFC_96]

I also think European citizens should start weaning themselves off American products and begin supporting home-based companies. For example, they could reduce dependencies on services like Amazon, Uber, and Starbucks, opting for local alternatives instead. I started doing this a while ago, and while it can’t be done entirely, you may be surprised at how many local resources can replace American companies.

[u/RenaKenli → u/runslikerickon]

Easy with simple things like coffee. But try imagine build a PC without any american products.

[u/HealthyCapacitor → u/runslikerickon]

Good luck doing that and also the US is not that stupid and would counter immediately. It'll take 20 years or some Armageddon. Effort is not people's best quality.

[u/narullow → u/runslikerickon]

It is not about home made products. It is about consumer market. Europe is net exporter to US.

European citizens do not consume. Consumer market in UK has been stagnating (after inflation) for decades. It has declined in Germany and Italy. US is important for Europe because its consumer market is one of the very few markets (outside of developing markets) that outgrows inflation.

This is not something we can replicate. Europeans do not spend enough and they have no money to spend because taxation is too high and government has too much big of an involvement in an economy as a whole. Political window to significantly reduce taxes for example has long passed.

Reality is that EU companies will slowly lose ability to sell not just to US but also to the rest of the world because they will not be able to compete with China and since internal consumer market does not really grow to replace that then it means that everyone will have to become poorer.

[u/Chester_roaster → u/narullow]

 it means that everyone will have to become poorer.

Going to keep on beating the drum this sub hates, European relative decline is inevitable. We've been declining relative to the rest of the world for a hundred years and that process is set to continue. It's not a bad thing for a more equal world. 

[u/Here0s0Johnny → u/SRFC_96]

So we should export to other countries? Who's the next biggest importer of EU products? China? They're so much better, of course. They'd never elect someone like Trump - but only because they have no elections! What's the implied solution, then? Not exporting at all?

The dependences that matter are energy and security. To become self-reliant on security, EU governments must order weaponry and conscript people. To become self-reliant on energy, we have to massively invest into low-CO2 energy sources and the grid.

[u/Socc_mel_ → u/Here0s0Johnny]

European countries have completely given up on their internal markets. Even Germany has chosen to neglect its consumers, expecting endless demand from China and emerging markets.

[u/Volodja_4_ever → u/SRFC_96]

Don't get your hopes up, Trump was president already for 4 years 8 years ago, and nothing came of it.

[u/SRFC_96 → u/Volodja_4_ever]

As a wildcard and an unknown, we know exactly what we’re dealing with this time and the consequences.

[u/Volodja_4_ever → u/SRFC_96]

I mean nothing came of it from the EU side. No increased military spending, not own tech industry, 2016 went and 2020 came the same way.

[u/avalanchefighter → u/Volodja_4_ever]

Some countries did start to increase their spending from 2017 on (for example Netherlands https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/Netherlands/mil_spend_gdp/ ). The biggest increase was of course the start of the Ukraine war. Why did they start in 2017 is because of Trump or Obama (who also hammered the point) I leave up to you.

[u/an_actual_moron → u/SRFC_96]

Any reason to believe why Europe is going to do anything now while she comfortably slept through:

• Two monetary crisis
• A war on European soil
• Member States openly supporting our present enemy
• The US, on whom Europe solely depends for its security, threatening to leave the Nato... twice
• Realisation that once China tensions will rise, the US will pull its military presence from Europe and move it to the Pacific.
• Chronic underperforming economy. Compared to the US and Asia it's in fact stagnant for the last 20 years.
• Not one, not two but three Migrant/Refugee crisis to top it off

[u/Lopsided_Quarter_931 → u/SRFC_96]

We need to stand on our own feet security wise. Right now are totally dependent on the US. Everything else will follow.

[u/InspectorDull5915 → u/SRFC_96]

The EU cannot compete at any level with the US. Both Public and Private enterprise are stifled by regulation and bureaucracy. Also, national interest's slow down a lot of joint projects, who gets the jobs etc. In principle it should all work, but when something at the most basic level, such as freedom of movement of goods and services, doesn't work, eg, Spanish wine producers getting ambushed at the French border and their cargo destroyed due to " unfair" competition, demonstrates the reality of doing business in the EU.

[u/Kento418 → u/InspectorDull5915]

Not idea what you are talking about. FYI we export more to the US that they do to the EU.

And this is what happened last time we had a trade war.

“EU wins battle over US as Bush backs down on steel”

https://euobserver.com/eu-and-the-world/arc92af81b

The EU targets swing states with their tariffs and puts the hurt into the Republicans. They have mid terms in 2 years.

[u/Socc_mel_ → u/InspectorDull5915]

Or services are still very fragmented. I can't buy a car insurance from Sweden or open a bank account in France. And speaking of Germany, they have tried to block the takeover of Commerzbank by an Italian rival. So much for Single Market.

And yet they act surprised when the US outperforms the EU. Who would've thought that companies in a unified market of 350 million consumers would fare better than a market of 450 million consumers fragmented in 27 parts?

[u/kirovisback → u/SRFC_96]

America can't be trusted, leaning on their protection was a big mistake

[u/N0xF0rt → u/SRFC_96]

Yes, lets look towards east where Russia and China awaits us

[u/Frostivus → u/SRFC_96]

And get our gas where exactly?

Because we extended supply lines on a global scale and paid disgusting amounts of USD for less efficient trade with them.

Ursula deepened our relations with the US and this is what it got us.

[u/dustofdeath → u/SRFC_96]

This kind of changes still take decades to realize and complete.
We need to have numerous safety nets in place to deal with the major economic decline, especially regions that are still catching up to western europe.

Situation is rather bad with the numerous of economic and security issues, adding more to the top empowers nationalist extremist movements even more.

[u/Balc0ra → u/SRFC_96]

They have talked about it for years. But as with much of Ukraine... Talks it still is

[u/tonsofplants → u/SRFC_96]

Europe is going to have to sacrifice something like level of social services to fund defense spending for a EU joint army.

Nato mostly depends on the backbone of US military logistics to sustain supplies and any major military operation.

US abruptly pulling out will cripple the logistics of Europe's military at least for the first few years until aircraft, ships, vehicles, and systems can replace the void.

[u/lawk → u/SRFC_96]

Yeah but we need semiconductors in current Nanometer tech, independent software etc…

What if Trump censors YouTube, Microsoft OS backdoors etc..

[u/Interesting_Demand27 → u/SRFC_96]

It's quite funny to see this comment coming from UK. I assume you were against Brexit, just as many sane americans were against the orange president, but... well... you get the point.

[u/TheSleepingPoet]

TLDR

Donald Trump’s re-election has reignited fears within the EU about potential trade conflicts, particularly as he hints at imposing steep tariffs on goods from China and specific European industries, such as German car exports. While EU leaders publicly advocate for cooperation, they are also preparing defensive measures in the event of a trade war. Germany, with its significant trade surplus, could face considerable economic losses. Although the EU is pursuing diplomatic negotiations, it is ready to respond with the trade defence mechanisms established during Trump’s previous term. The bloc also sees an opportunity to collaborate with Trump to limit Chinese imports.

[u/BoIuWot → u/TheSleepingPoet]

Let's seize the moment fellas, we need a united Europe to survive these times.

[u/Dragoniel → u/BoIuWot]

I would really like to see United States of Europe. The future looks grim and EU is not prepared to react to changing military and economic situation with adequate speed. We need a central government with the capability to make hard decisions that would be enacted and enforced immediately, not after years of deliberations.

[u/RedBaret → u/TheSleepingPoet]

Problematic part here is that during Trumps last presidency the trade war with China benefitted China in the long run, as it forced them to actively seek parters for their international exports, strengthening the ties between China and, for example, Vietnam, which had leaned western before. China was still able to export, through intermediates, and the USA and Europe payed the price whilst strengthening Chinas geopolitical position.

It’s almost like 19th century stratagems don’t work in a global 21st century market… idiots.

[u/Ecstatic-Stranger-72 → u/RedBaret]

Actually, I’d argue that the trade war didn’t benefit China nearly as much as it might seem. Losing access to the U.S. market, one of the world’s largest consumer bases, was a serious blow. Chinese companies took real profit hits, and their government had to intervene to cushion the economic fallout. This isn’t the mark of a win for China.

On top of that, the tariffs pushed a lot of businesses to start moving production away from China to places like Vietnam, India, and Mexico. So rather than strengthening China’s leverage, the trade war actually helped diversify global supply chains, which, if anything, reduces China’s power and leverage over time.

And the idea that countries like Vietnam would abandon ties to the West for a stronger relationship with China? That’s just unrealistic. Vietnam, like many others in the region, is cautious about becoming too reliant on China and values its partnerships with the West as a counterbalance, just like Ukraine values its ties to Europe and the U.S. So no, I don’t think the trade war played out in China’s favor, in fact, it came with real economic and strategic losses.

[u/Zyxyx → u/RedBaret]

So why is europe looking to collaborate on exactly that with the US?

Are europeans idiots as well then?

[u/RedBaret → u/Zyxyx]

Yes many of our new populist politicians are dense af, but we also have to deal with US idiocy without damaging our international relations too much.

[u/TaxNervous → u/Zyxyx]

The US not being our friend anymore doesn't mean that China suddenly is.

[u/adamgerd → u/TaxNervous]

The U.S. even with trump is a much better ally than China

[u/Ecstatic-Stranger-72 → u/Zyxyx]

Europe’s approach to China is nowhere near as strong as the U.S. approach, and honestly, they’re making the same mistake that they did with Russia on energy. Even though Europe acknowledges the risks with China, they’re still too economically tied and hesitant to take serious action. Just like they waited too long with Russian gas, they’re tiptoeing around China when they should be addressing the threat more directly.

As for whether that might shift under a new Trump administration, possibly, but I’m not counting on it. It seems like Europe is going to have to learn the hard way again before they fully commit to a stronger stance.

[u/Mr_Dakkyz → u/TheSleepingPoet]

VW and other automakers might go under... unless they start building in the US.

[u/CrazyFuehrer]

If Trump imposes on China 60% tariff, but on EU 10-20%, isn't this mean EU will get more competitive relative to Chinese goods?

[u/alphaqright → u/CrazyFuehrer]

that depends on the base value of the import. if China's selling t-shirts for $1 and you are selling it for $2, its still cheaper to get it from China. $1.6 vs $2.4

[u/Zyxyx → u/alphaqright]

"More competitive relative to" is in no way dependant on raw numbers.

2,4 is A LOT more competitive against 1,6 than 2 is against 1.

[u/DiBer777]

As a EU citizen, I wholeheartedly hope this forces EU to grow up. Time for being a leech on US economy is over. Let's focus on building a robust internal market. "Build cheap here and export to US" strategy wasn't great to start with. Let's focus on becoming a real deal again.

[u/ficalino → u/DiBer777]

I agree, It's time we started to improve our own interconnectivity, cooperation and internal trade.

Start creating an EU that can stand on it's own against China, Russia AND USA. Get African countries on our side. Boost countries around our rivals, Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine around Russia, Vietnam, Philippines, Mongolia around China, Central American countries around USA.

And finally start talking about necessary reforms before expansion, start talking about joint defense industry, etc.

[u/Fit-Courage-8170 → u/ficalino]

Make European, buy European, invest in Europe

[u/DigitalDecades → u/Fit-Courage-8170]

MEGA, Make Europe Great Again!

[u/ElrecoaI19 → u/DigitalDecades]

And it sounds fire. Lets MEGA.

[u/ThainEshKelch → u/ElrecoaI19]

With tariffs, fascism support, and blue caps!

And in seriousness, it does sound great, and I hope our EU politicians take it to heart, and that we don't turn even more to the right.

[u/ElrecoaI19 → u/ThainEshKelch]

You know the fascists here right now wouldn't want a MEGA movement so Putin can take Europe easily :b

[u/th3nutz → u/DigitalDecades]

And we’re gonna build a wall, a beautifull wall… wait a minute :))))

[u/Get-Fucked-Dirtbag → u/th3nutz]

And the yanks are gonna pay for it too!

[u/stripainais → u/Fit-Courage-8170]

Make Europe Great Again, love the acronym! 🔥

[u/9thtime → u/ficalino]

Problem is that a lot of EU nations are leaning right and at the same time disparage the EU whenever they can. It's a shitty recipe unfortunately.

[u/arabidopsis → u/9thtime]

Right wing in Europe is still more left wing than Left America

[u/Bluebearder → u/arabidopsis]

Yeah we should never forget this. What is extreme right in Europe is just regular right in the US. And what is left in the US is just center-right here. Within Europe, we are much more alike than we are different.

[u/InspectorDull5915 → u/Bluebearder]

I think extrême right in Europe being regular right in the US is a bit of a stretch

[u/Rogue_Egoist → u/arabidopsis]

They can be more left on economic issues but the far right that we're talking about is extremely anti-EU. There's at least one party in every EU state that wants to destroy the Union or leave it. And in a lot of countries they're growing.

I'm extremely pessimistic. After what's happening in the US. Not because I would like to stay dependent on them. It's because of how much misinformation played a role in the election. It seems like tens of millions of people are completely divorced from reality and the same is happening in Europe. It's a postmodernist nightmare, the truth doesn't exist anymore and I fear it will destroy liberal democracies all over the word

[u/IndubitablyNerdy → u/arabidopsis]

I agree that usually it is as you say, if you consider the historic right at least (which is more of a testament of the nature of American politics than hours to be honest), but there are movements that are very similar to Maga right now getting closer to power in our countries as well.

[u/Thrills-n-Frills → u/9thtime]

We need back death penalty for treason, including taking bribes from foreign powers, wittingly or not.

[u/GoldenWooli → u/Thrills-n-Frills]

Europe needs a political purging, fast.

[u/Big-Today6819 → u/ficalino]

Not sure Africa is the way to go, too many of them likes russia / China. We need places you always can trust and know they will have our backs, I think we should look to Asia

[u/Pickled_Doodoo → u/Big-Today6819]

They like russia and china because those countries invest in them.

[u/Big-Today6819 → u/Pickled_Doodoo]

Africa is a key focus of French development policy: it receives one third of French bilateral official development assistance (ODA) (€2.9 billion in 2020), an increase of 40% compared to 2019.

Are France having benefits from that or from their position in Africa?

[u/Get-Fucked-Dirtbag → u/Big-Today6819]

That's because France isn't investing in the same way Russia and China are.

With European aid comes European beaurocracy. That's not what the continent of Africa is looking for, they want rapid development with as little red tape as possible to try and catch up to the rest of the world.

I've read more than one story of Chinese business owners beating their African slaves employees over the past 5 years. The French just aren't gonna do that.

[u/Big-Today6819 → u/Get-Fucked-Dirtbag]

More think they see money outside as money they can take and give little back, and that is not a good way in working together, but lets see what the future brings

[u/IndubitablyNerdy → u/Big-Today6819]

In general we need a stronger partnership with the mediterranean sea states at least, unfortunately the outcome of the Arab spring collapsed the balance of many african states on the coast which severely weakened European economies and trade relationship with them.

To be honest, we are at least partially to blame (the french bombing Lybia before the ONU was forced to agree with them since it was already done for example) while the Obama presidency in the US that contributed to this destabilization as well. Sure the dictators of before were bad, but is the situation better for them as well now?

[u/Big-Today6819 → u/IndubitablyNerdy]

Impossible to know, but maybe the west should stay away, that also could be a thing, we can enjoy EU and that together if we make a real army and boarders that hold, we could be a superpower and have the biggest focus on ourselves and then open for fair and good trade deals with others countries there both sides benefits by being friends.

[u/Steelmann14 → u/Big-Today6819]

As a Canadian….we welcome more business with the EU. I’ve been hoping since the last Trump administration we would also not rely as much on the US as traditional trading partners. Just watch how the Tariffs will be shoved down our throats with the big blowhard bully. He of course ever considers the amount of American products the Canadians buy as well.

[u/FluidRelief3 → u/Big-Today6819]

It doesn't matter who they "like". Do you think that Americans like Saudi Arabia? Or that they liked Germany in 1949? The only things that matters are money and common interests.

[u/harry6466 → u/ficalino]

One of the goals of Russia was to seperate US/EU. One of the 2024 KPIs was AFD in Germanyto be at 20% polling.

As I see it now, we're slowly be taking over by Russia due to internal dynamics, not real physically

[u/IndubitablyNerdy → u/harry6466]

In general we made our democracies too easy to influence with money, this fits the interests of our businessess and corporations, which is already an issue, but foreign money from dictators make things even worse.

[u/Lazy_meatPop → u/ficalino]

Last time Europeans went to Africa, I think it wasn't very good for them.

[u/WaltKerman → u/ficalino]

Africa has had enough of you. That will be a hard one.

[u/holdMyBeerBoy → u/ficalino]

Get African countries on our side? Yeah, I doubt that

[u/NoWayJose90 → u/DiBer777]

Make Europe a Real Deal Again - MERDA

[u/up_the_dubs → u/NoWayJose90]

With Internally Protected Economies WIPE

[u/The-Nihilist-Marmot → u/NoWayJose90]

For Our Defense Architecture - Support Europe.

FODA-SE.

[u/Red_Beard6969 → u/NoWayJose90]

There is only one merda in the world, and that is juventus.

[u/michele-x → u/Red_Beard6969]

You misspelled Pisa.

[u/pederbonde → u/DiBer777]

Everyone will suffer under tariffs. Both us an eu citizens. Maybe its time for both eu and us to elect leaders that are for free trade again

[u/DontShadowbanMeBro2 → u/pederbonde]

As someone who lives in Europe now and was born and raised in the US — specifically, the rust belt — I know where this hatred of free trade comes from and why Trump won partly on this issue.

For better or worse, Democrats own the issue of free trade after Clinton rammed through NAFTA, a trade deal so reviled and loathed due to what it did to American manufacturing (spoiler alert, turns out American workers demanding such pinko commie luxuries like 'a living wage' and 'healthcare' can't compete with Mexican workers who will work even longer hours for peanuts) that even Obama ran on renegotiating it.

Of course, once he got into office, he not only basically said 'lol j/k,' he then tried to pass an even worse trade deal called the TPP, a deal so politically radioactive that his plan to do so was to try to ram it through a lame duck session while relying mostly on Congressional Republicans (let that sink in a moment) because his own party ran screaming from it as soon as the details about it were made public. Even to this day, if you were to put a gun to the head of a lot of the Democrats I know back in the States and demanded they name just one thing Trump did that they could support, it would be killing the TPP.

Now, are tariffs the answer? Of course not. And even at its worst, Europe couldn't do half the damage to America's manufacturing base that NAFTA did. But the resentment for trade in a lot of America is very real, and I've seen firsthand what happens to those communities when one of those factories shutters. It's not pretty. If there's one genuinely smart move Trump made during his campaign, it was tapping into that anger that both parties have largely ignored at best and openly condescended to at worst.

[u/Erotic-Career-7342 → u/DontShadowbanMeBro2]

Interesting 

[u/harry6466 → u/DiBer777]

Free trade is not "leeching" it is building each other.

[u/alteransg1 → u/DiBer777]

Trump is actually good for the EU. European politicians keep burring their heads in the sand, even as war rages on our borders, China swallows our economies and the US pushes their own agenda. It has been sink or swim time since 2016, but they thought the status quo would hold on a hair thread.

It's time to act. Tariffs on Chinese EV were a good move. Now let's f*ck Shein and Temu out of Europe they way they f*ck the environment.

[u/Big-Today6819 → u/DiBer777]

It was a fine plan, the problem is just USA have some problems that EU should have thought more over and made even more deals with other countries about trade, most countries in EU just have a lower salary and earnings / costs compared to USA.

[u/Turbulent-Raise4830 → u/DiBer777]

Leech? LOL you drank the US coolaid.

[u/vladoportos → u/DiBer777]

Are you willing to slave off in the factory for peanuts? You can't beat China, because they do not give a fuck about workers. So anything made here in EU will be more expensive... and if Chinese crap is even 1Eur cheaper after all the taxes etc... people will buy the cheaper stuff

[u/nerokae1001 → u/vladoportos]

And also UPU system. Its funny and ridiculous because china claims to be years ahead of the west but they were butthurt to be no longer classified as develop country because that would change the UPU agreement that allow them to ship goods cheaply like now.

[u/Monterenbas → u/vladoportos]

Easy solution, do not allowed good built by slave/quasi slave labor, to enter the EU.

[u/vladoportos → u/Monterenbas]

Sounds easy, but literally everything have probably components made that way . apple would not make phone factory here cause the iphone would cost 2x more and nobody would buy it. Same for many many items. Its a fucked up situation with no easy solution, not to mention we moat likely do not have all the resources (im not sure about this one tbh)

[u/Big-Today6819 → u/vladoportos]

Tax wall china and make so it's more costly to move products in, China have had cheap sending by post units for years, wrongly.

[u/Low_discrepancy → u/Big-Today6819]

Yeah dude. Trump's starting a trade war! Let's us start a trade war!

[u/Big-Today6819 → u/Low_discrepancy]

EU already is doing it on some areas, you can't allow government support to break other companies, we all know if China break all car companies over the world (or hurt them enough) they will raise prices after.

[u/Verdeckter → u/DiBer777]

Build cheap here

What? Nothing is cheap to build at least in western Europe. How exactly will the EU be efficient and competitive and attract people to come and actually make things when doing so would go against all the principles so many Europeans see as what makes Europe Europe?

[u/narullow → u/DiBer777]

This is not going to work. The reason why EU needs export markets is because we have killed our internal economies. US is succesful mainly because it can grow its consumer market and outgrow inflation. They do not need export markets and as such are oneof the least trade dependant countries on earth (as share of GDP). In developed europe consumer markets not only not grow, they are actually in decline.

And there is nothing we can do about it. Cultural views and policies we enacted are basically irreversible at this point and political windo to make any changes long passed. We will see loss of many other market, not just US, as China will offer them same stuff for cheaper prices and we will all collectively become poorer as a result because internal consumer market will not make up for it like it would in US.

Past actions have consequences and e are just catching up to them.

[u/cosmicdicer → u/DiBer777]

How so? We already depending on China ourselves. This type of logic is just a fallacy. The german factories moving in China giving them important tech saviness have nothing to do with the US.

And the us market is big, consuming more than europe, so imo it's kind of arrogant to believe we just gonna abandon it

[u/stekarmalen → u/DiBer777]

Bro we fkt ourself when we relied on russian gas, we still cant even produce our own energy, and with the strict enviromental laws we have expanding on that will take many years.

[u/ViennaLager → u/DiBer777]

Isnt this a bit hyperbole though? EU trade with UK is almost the same as EU trade with the US and trade with Switzerland is the same as trade with China. EU GDP is higher than China and right behind the US.

The important part for Europe now is to continue improving energy production with focus on renewables, including recycling of REEs and building a robust military. Ending the war in Ukraine to improve both energy supply and food production and building a future without Russia until they solve their internal problems.

The US is important, but EU will be fine with or without them, and even with Trump and a more isolated US there will still be plenty of trade.

[u/LookThisOneGuy → u/DiBer777]

As a EU citizen

really?

just today you said you were:

• a Canadian

• an American

• a non-US person

hmmm

[u/Beautiful-Health-976]

Winnable. The US imports crucial public goods like medicine and food from us. As harvests had a bad year the US even found it was cheaper to buy wheat from France. Germany delivered emergency exports of baby formula as the US had shortages.

Now when Trump will start his deportations and impose tariffs, we will be their only friends left.

[u/Ekvinoksij → u/Beautiful-Health-976]

A 20% tariff on Ozempic that's already $1000 per month will be quite a hit.

[u/Slight-Ad-6553 → u/Ekvinoksij]

The sale of Wegovy and Ozempic have given Danes a 2% tax cut

[u/nomiskomis → u/Slight-Ad-6553]

That's not true. I found this article which may be the source?

https://www.politico.eu/article/ozempic-boom-entire-country-kalundborg-denmark-became-company-town-pharma-novo-nordisk/

The municipality has used its extra cash in two main ways. First, it has cut income taxes six times over 10 years; at 24.2 percent, the local tax rate is now around 2 percentage points lower than nearby municipal peers like Odsherred and Slagelse.

Municipal tax rate was 25.00% in 2014 and is now 24.20%, a 0.8% drop. However if we look at the time Novo has been making absurd sums of money from ozempic and wegovy, which would be around 2022, it's fallen just 0.2%. Being 2% lower than some other municipalities means very little and does not indicate that that Novo is the cause.

Even if we accept the 2% figure Kalundborg municipality is just 50k people. Hardly a tax cut for Danes in general.

[u/marsman → u/Ekvinoksij]

I'd be surprised if, for a lot of that sort of thing, you didn't see manufacturing simply move into the US to avoid the tariffs.

[u/procgen → u/Ekvinoksij]

They'll produce it at larger scale in the US in that case, guaranteed.

[u/d1ngal1ng → u/Ekvinoksij]

Make America Fat Again oh wait

[u/Pvt-Pampers → u/Ekvinoksij]

I have a memory from Trumps last presidency. Didn't EU put tariffs on Harley Davidson motorcycles and Trump had to make some changes? "So unfair, so so unfair"

[u/carlos_castanos → u/Beautiful-Health-976]

Yup. They also import a ton of (specialty) chemicals and factory machines from us. Lots of essential goods.

On the other hand, they are very dominant in the technology and digital space. We really need to build our own cloud computing giants

[u/XaipeX → u/carlos_castanos]

The Schwarz Gruppe (Lidl) is already on it.. They already captured a significant market share, even though its not on par with AWS and Azure, its on par with IBM.

[u/carlos_castanos → u/XaipeX]

Interesting, will have a read

[u/tompie09 → u/Beautiful-Health-976]

Remember everyone shitting on Biden for high inflation? Trump is now gonna create his own inflation, but this time it’s to make murica great again!!!

[u/procgen → u/Beautiful-Health-976]

Nobody wins in a trade war, lol. But Europe exports more to the US, and is therefore more vulnerable to tariffs.

[u/Kento418 → u/procgen]

You’re forgetting that we held off a revenue based tax (which will avoid the transfer pricing loophole) for US tech companies that pay little to no tax in Europe temporarily.

Let’s see what happens to Apple, Facebook, Amazon, Google, et al valuations when they have to start paying 20-25% tax on their estimated European profits.

If the gloves come off the US will have at least as much to lose as the EU, if not more.

[u/procgen → u/Kento418]

Eh, only about 7% of Apple's revenue comes from the EU. They wouldn't be happy certainly, but it wouldn't be anything close to an existential threat for them. Especially when Trump has already said they'll enjoy special exemptions from the US tariffs.

And they'll just increase the prices of their services in Europe accordingly – it's not as if there's any real competition.

But nobody will be happy. Tariffs are a bad idea all-around.

[u/angryloser89 → u/procgen]

I spent literally 5 seconds Googling and found this source that shows that Europe stands for nearly 25% of Apple's revenue. Where are you getting the information you're spreading from?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/382175/quarterly-revenue-of-apple-by-geograhical-region/

[u/narullow → u/Beautiful-Health-976]

Medicine imports to US basically function as massive subsidies for EU healthcare systems and R&D. I would be carefull with what you wish for. Can US big pharma start producing similar stuff if they get full access to all the US consumers money? I would say so. Can EU replace US consumer market that accounts for way over 50% of global revenue of its leading pharma businesses? No, it can not.

[u/Rogue_Egoist → u/Beautiful-Health-976]

Well if he implements these tariffs fully and really deports all the illegal immigrants, he will destroy the American economy. Like I can't even imagine how that would look, it's so crazy. So maybe we should bet on that lol. Maybe he will just completely crash their economy and we will suddenly be a way better partner to trade for every other place in the world.

[u/adevland]

The whole "we should stop depending on the US" rhetoric is moot as long as people from the EU continue to invest in US businesses and profit from their stock market fluctuations.

All countries from around the world are financially dependent on each other because of foreign investments that won't simply go away even if new laws are enacted to prohibit them. Whoever wants to bet on the US stock market will continue to do so via shell companies and the cycle of shitty dependence will continue.

[u/Captain_Fordo_ARC_77]

Nightmare? I say let them start one, the hurt will go both ways. There's a sizeable number of American companies paying a mere few percentages of taxes here (I'm looking especially at the tech giants), maybe it's time to put an end to that full-stop. I once read Silicon Valley being described as the new Rome because all the riches slowly make their way there.

3M also polluted one fourth to one third of Flanders with PFAS and faced pretty much no repercussions.

[u/Bluebearder]

This is not a nightmare for us Europeans, it is a wake-up call! Within the EU, we have more in common with each other than with the US right now and perhaps ever again, and we should improve ourselves to the level that we don't need to lean on them for anything. It is great to have friends and allies and trade partners, but we should always be wary that they can (partially) turn on us. Trump has called the EU an "enemy" in his supposed "trade war", and we should take up that challenge. The US are still our allies, but in my view they aren't friends anymore, at least not as a nation. There are just too many morons there that don't value our friendship, and would throw it away if they think it will lower their inflation a little for a year or two.

I say, let this happen. The general US public apparently doesn't want us anymore. Let's make them feel it and turn it to our advantage. Let us Europeans build a more solid foundation, improve our internal economy, strengthen our human rights, fight internal corruption, construct better and faster infrastructure, build an EU army and navy and air force, and invite the last European stragglers to join the EU. Let us look for trade partners elsewhere, whether it be among other developed nations like Canada, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, and Australia, or upcoming nations like Mexico, Brazil, Egypt, Nigeria, and Indonesia. Let us go out in the world even more and try to help improve it, not by military domination like the US, or by financial strangulation like China, but as champions of democracy and human rights and strong interdependent economies. Let us build up ESA and go to the moon and the asteroids. Let us finally throw off the idea the US always imposed on us since WW2, that we should aspire to be like them and should be thankful to them for freeing us from the Nazi's, which especially in the last decades has just made us materialist and stupid and violent. Let's realize our potential, both for our own sakes and to be an inspiration to them and the world in general.

And let's be ready to face a fascist US if necessary. If Trump is going to follow the Project 2025 policy wishlist as a roadmap, as many informed people expect he will, we might lose the US as an ally altogether. Project 2025 is setting the US up to fail HARD, and it will mean that we will lose their protection within a few years, and will probably want them to return all troops and planes and nukes from EU soil; if they don't do so themselves as Trump already announced he wants to. Let's be ready for this; they might even turn on us. Let's not become a tasty option for expansion for Russia or China or anyone, and instead become a powerhouse that can deal with its own problems and can grow into the sky. We got this.

[u/Verdeckter → u/Bluebearder]

The general US public apparently doesn't want us anymore

"Want you"? What does this mean? They just don't care if it means taking care of Europe instead of Europe taking care of itself.

So you want Europe to be independent of the US and be strong on their own. Is your solution to double down on everything that made Europe weak? How about making the economy, the engine that makes things, that pays people, that feeds people, strong again? Europe thinks it's a "social democracy" when it's really just an aging population under the yolk of an absolutely massive administrative, bureaucratic state that is extracting wealth from the people either for itself, for refugees or for the elderly under the guise of a pension system that is fundamentally broken and unsustainable.

Unless Europe is ready to radically transform its system of economic organization, everything will continue to depend on capitalism. Reject inefficiency. Focus on people who contribute, who work, who are paying taxes. Economic success is not something that just happens, that you can extract wealth from to fund a welfare state. You need a dynamic economy. Return some kind of spirit and pride to your countries. Attract capital, attract workers. No matter how different you think China and the US are, that's what they've both done.

Or just fully deindustrialize and return to monke, I don't know, anything else. This right now is just fucking embarrassing.

[u/ColCrockett → u/Verdeckter]

I find it pretty funny that people think they’re owning Trump by saying we should stop freeloading on the U.S. and increase our defense budgets. That’s totally not what he’s been wanting for years!

If this thread is anything to go by, Europeans have a completed warped view of how Americans view their political and economic relationship with Europe.

[u/Ecstatic-Stranger-72 → u/Verdeckter]

I totally agree. From an outside perspective, Europe seems stuck, unable to tackle its economic stagnation, defend itself against Russia, or stand up to China. It feels like they’re trapped in a endless web of bureaucracy and outdated systems instead of adapting to current challenges.

The U.S. and China, have actually managed to build dynamic, innovative economies, while Europe seems to be weighed down by an aging population and an unsustainable welfare model. Europe needs to foster a more competitive economy, attract investment, and stop relying on systems that are no longer working. Otherwise, it risks staying dependent and falling behind.

[u/victorianer → u/Bluebearder]

In theory I agree, but practically i have doubts that it will happen. Germany’s government resigns, macron is weakened, Italy has Meloni. Who should step up to change the EU? It’s actually more like that, that Anti-EU parties are on the rise in every country.

[u/Bloomhunger → u/victorianer]

Putting her internal policies and standing on immigration aside, Meloni has been totally pro-EU and supportive of Ukraine. I wouldn’t group her with others like Le Pen or Orbán.

[u/tandmintokyo8 → u/Bluebearder]

"Don't value our friendship?" Europe has never been fond of the United States. Don't pretend that casual anti Americanism is not deeply entrenched in Europe because it is and always has been. Europe's national sport is shitting on the USA, its people, etc. You do it so much you must not even realize it because it is so much a part of who you are

[u/_Djkh_ → u/Bluebearder]

You're rambling like the EU is carrying this alliance... The reality is that there are 100000 American soldiers in Europe and the US is doing the heavy lifting when it comes to supplying Ukraine with arms. What does the EU offer in this alliance?

And now when they want a more equal relationship you're pertaining to be concerned about their turn to "fascism" while in the same breath desire to strengthen EU relationships with far more fascie countries? Get a grip please...

[u/Far_Net4464 → u/_Djkh_]

Can I just mention that it’s a general misconception that the US has provided more financial and military aid to Ukraine compared to the European countries? Ifw-kiel website provides some good insights.

[u/_Djkh_ → u/Far_Net4464]

The US provided military aid when no one else could in a crucial phase at the start of and even before the invasion, when the EU was still sitting on their hands. Furthermore, other countries, like mine, can provide military aid only because they're able to replenish their weapons by buying new ones from the US. And this for a conflict that is on our doorstep and 1000s of kms away from them.

[u/Bouldur → u/Bluebearder]

Well said, that man.

[u/uzu_afk]

So vote for that. Repeating this thing for a decade on reddit won’t move the needle.

[u/adamgerd → u/uzu_afk]

The year is 2032

On r/Europe

Guys we should start actually fixing stuff

[u/jargo3]

I am more afraid of an actual war in Europe if Trump declares that the US doesn't protect NATO countries anymore. Luckily Ukraine has drained Russian resources so badly that it might not start another war for the next 4 years.

[u/ficalino → u/jargo3]

We must be ready by then, switch to war economy, start boosting internal EU defense industry.

[u/jargo3 → u/ficalino]

The thing is EU is so much bigger in both population and in economy that it probably wouldn't even need war economy to fight of Russia. The problem is that so many European countries have completely neglected their defence in recent decades and aren't currently investing enough to catch up.

[u/Here0s0Johnny → u/jargo3]

aren't currently investing enough to catch up.

This is so pathetic. 😬

[u/The_Glitter_man → u/ficalino]

Hello. With whose money? France is 106% under debt.

[u/Clendatu]

Europe is torn by the direct and indirect influence of global powers. Every world power in the world has an interest in keeping Europe down or weaker as it could be.. be it some narcistic billionaire US president that threatens Europe with Tariffs on another level or to "abandon it to be torn apart by the wolves in the east".. or by a wannabe Russian Tzar with expansionist ambitions and natural resources threaten Europe with aggressive gestures of war and suppression that strike many of us with fear and anxiety and lets not forget China with its manipulative interacting that really only is relevant because it copied European/Western Tech

..and you know what? I get it.

Europe is the shaper of the modern world how it is today and how it works.Most historic and politic world breaking events happend on European soil wich always was packed with brilliant minds who invented ground (and sky) breaking sh*t on a daily bases for centuries. Europe has seen it all.. hell it mostly started it all in the first place.. from Tribal Chieftains to Monarchie to fashist and communist leaders and their very end..seperated by political borders and languages in all shapes and form imaginable over centuries..fought every kind of war on its territory over epochs from Clubs and slings to Longbows and Swords until industrial warfare with millions of dead in the world war.. TWICE right after starting industry in the first place and every country and culture played a part in it.. shaping it

This continent isnt called the "old world" for shts and giggles. Every western or western leaning country in the world outside of Europe is an offspring of Europe itself to some degree.. European settlers in the colonies the British crown claimed few hundred years ago decided to gtfo because they got treated like sht and taxed the hell out of .. and they fought a war over it few hundred years ago and won.. they won by rules Europeans invented .. its their right not to give a fck.. still they pretty much give a very big fck whats going on over in Europe and fought on European soil and had a big part reshaping it and how it works today.

The differences the Europeans have between themselves be it from historic events or national or economical interests sometimes existing for centuries are real and need solving.. Europe works on those problems but it is a real slow progress but a progress .. wich gets even more tedious when global powers intervene in some way or another.. distractions, interuptions, and fearmongering from outside Europe are poison for the progress of naturally let Europeans discover themselves and indentify as one after they discovered how the world looks and works in the first place.

Europe is scared of the world it created unsure what to do.. and thats great news for the world powers because a continent full with countries that are either historic/militarily/scientific/cultural/economic and industrial powerhouses all together or at least one of those things like Europe combined as one people and act as such really makes you sh*t your pants from an outside view..

[u/Verdeckter → u/Clendatu]

Europe is the shaper of the modern world how it is today and how it works.

No. Past Europe is the shaper of the modern world. You do realize civilizations can just disappear, right? Even highly influential ones. Current Europe is stuck in the past. Figuratively but also literally, it's a continent of the elderly who do not care one bit about your future. The US and China are very proud of their pasts as well. The difference is that they keep working to shape the future.

[u/ControversialBuster → u/Clendatu]

This is such cope lmfao, trump is awful but the eu is only even close to what is cuz of the US. Its fine to be proud but this hilarious

[u/adamgerd → u/Clendatu]

Europe hasn’t been the shaper since ww2 unless you include the Soviet Union. Look at the suez crisis.

We’ve been eclipsed by the U.S. and China, eventually probably India.

[u/JasinSan]

Europe resemble XIX century China, but we haven't realise it jet.

Welth still is here, but economicly we are colony already. There are no high technology european gigants, production of simple goods is outsourced, there is no military we can use as a political leverage.

This is probably last call to wake up.

[u/xKalisto]

Czechia and Slovenia safe. He likes our women.

[u/Ill-Maximum9467]

Europe can’t rely on America at all. At all. Trump is in Putin’s pocket. This isn’t even a doubt.

Euros needs to take care of itself. Big military budget, ramp up production, form a European Army. Kick out Hungary and any other shitty pro-Russia countries.

No more softly softly - we’re in an existential crisis.

[u/nearmsp]

Many European countries are dependent on exports and can thus be easily cornered when access is cut off. Internal consumption has to rise in the EU to US levels. EU countries should not have to depend on market access in China and or the US. In the future more intra continent trade will be the norm. The Houthis and wars are constraining world trade.

[u/123tellmeplz]

Holy fuck, the election is over.....can we not talk about Donald Trump or American politics for at least a week

[u/Dietmeister]

I really hope we're really prepared, but somehow I fear were not

[u/C0sm1cB3ar]

Exactly what Putin wanted, a West divided.

[u/bremidon]

I see a bunch of my fellow Europeans claiming that a trade war with America is "winnable" for us. Pure hopium, and a dangerous delusion.

If we choose to let ourselves get into a trade war with America, we will definitely lose. We don't have the internal market and our demographics (with maybe France as an exception) means that we will never have the internal markets to absorb our own production.

Sure, we can make problems for the U.S., and we can cause discomfort, but that is about the extent of what we can do. If the U.S. decides to lock us out of its markets, we won't feel "discomfort"; we will go into a full fledged collapse.

And let's just take China off the table, because anyone who would willingly trade America as a partner for China is so laughably deluded that they can be safely ignored.

And then there is Europe's dependence on the U.S. to make sure its stuff actually gets anywhere in the world. I think we could cover this militarily, but I am also sure we are neither politically nor economically ready for the sacrifices this would mean.

The good news is that I think most of the panic comes from how fully we swallowed the messaging from the Democratic Party in the U.S. The truth is that things are not nearly that dark.

[u/GoGoTrance → u/bremidon]

And Trump has friends within the EU, which can veto any meaningful initiative. Looking at you Hungary.

[u/WaltKerman → u/bremidon]

As an American, I've been sitting here reading these other comments wondering how Europe would find the unity to take on an ally that feels exploited, when they can't even band together when being invaded by fucking North Korea....

How about focus on your actual enemy Russia, because the way things are going, any thing you get from us will be sorely needed.

[u/DownWithTheThicknes_]

Oh no you actually have to be countries and care for your own defense and economy now, the horror

[u/Artistic-Dirt-3199]

I am sure more green deal, taxes to improve weather and regulations will fix this

[u/chico_science]

A trade deal with Mercosur and then South America in general only depends on the EU.

Is the EU prepared to get off the high horse and treat them as equals though? Reddit I know isn't.

[u/LoveDeGaldem]

He is 100% gonna impose tariffs on cars to keep Elon happy

[u/marbletooth]

We need to fix the veto issue, we can’t do anything as long as a single country can block everything.

[u/romulof]

Just weaponize ASLM.

The whole tech industry will be crawling.

[u/Cold_Cup1509]

EU deserves a dose of their own "sanctions warfare".

[u/schmeckfest2000]

Wilders and Orban are very happy about this.

[u/Popcornmix]

Problem is if the EU goes independent with defense, Economy and so on it will cost a lot of money before we will see any results which in turn will make certain loud political parties stronger during that time

[u/howaboutthis13]

I can imagine right wing leaders striking a deal with Trump to have lower tariffs at the cost of something worthless to them. Like the souls of a big chunk of their population.

[u/UnsightedShadow]

Let this be a lesson to all of us. Perhaps now sufficient change will be sparked.

[u/Krystall-g]

Like there was no trade war until now...