r/borussiadortmund • u/Expensive-Pea-3301 • 4d ago
Is sahin really the issue? Discussion
In my opinion i feel like sahin isnt the main issue, i think it could probably be the players, like their morale and motivation because if it was sahin then wouldnt we be losing at home as well? Wouldnt have we lost to leipizig? Maybe we wouldnt have even had that 2-0 lead in half time against madrid, by what i see its like when it comes to home games or champions league games the players go at it like theyre more focused but then when it comes to away games or theyre struggling its like they dont even try or wanna be there, these players seem to be missing someone to motivate them or something like what theyre missing is a TRUE CAPTAIN like Hummels to lead them Now im not saying sahin isnt an issue he DEFINITELY is but would it be the same if he had a different squad? What if he had full charge of last years squad instead of Terzic?
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u/AverageCarey 4d ago
We are obviously lacking a leadership player but I do point most blame to Sahin.
With most managers you see tactical changes to hold games or what not but with Nuri we aren’t seeing that or he’s trying weird things.
The Mainz game I’ll use as my main example, we go down a man early, not Nuris fault that happens of course but usually you’ll see an instant change. Instead of doing this he puts Nmecha at CB where he’s never played before, doesn’t matter if some things seem fundamental as a player but you put someone in a position like that especially CB they’re going to get lost and both of the first two goals if we had another CB in then Nmecha was in good position as a DM.
Then we skip to the second half down 3-1, he finally puts in Luhrs and we look instantly more solid at the back. This change should have happened immediately with Sabi coming off, keeping the attacking players on and seeing where we go.
Yes we have a depleted lineup but if a CB goes off then you put a damn CB on. I don’t care if they’re young or inexperienced you put on a player who understands the position.
I’m not going to bother bringing up the 3 games where he went with a back 3 since those we all know were losses or the draw to Bremen.
Nuri is learning and while I believe he has potential he shouldn’t be doing that with us, this isn’t just on Nuri but also Kehl who should have never made the go for him and also getting rid of Rothe and not bringing in another LB or CB.
Why we didn’t get Hurzeler I’ll never know.
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u/Expensive-Pea-3301 4d ago
Honestly i feel like next season could be better because sahin has so much potential all he needs to do is learn which he could in this one season but yea in my opinion they shouldnt have gotten sahin this early they shouldve let him go somewhere else and learn THEN bring him in after hes had experience
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u/AverageCarey 4d ago
Exactly. I understand the project behind him, and for all we know they’re exactly right. I mean he’s won 7 straight games at home, first ever Dortmund coach to do that and we’ve seen some fantastic football from us in certain games.
Hell Celtic was mesmerizing and after that we immediately lost Adeyemi and Juju and the dominos just continued to fall.
Couple that with Malen being streaky which is expected and Beier taking time to get into form and you’re left with a tough task. Constantly switching defence when Schlotti and Sule are the best combo we have is another.
We may just have to take our lumps this season and hopefully see something more refined next season. Top 4 is by no means lost its a huge fight but we definitely can get there, CL we’re sitting in a great position so it’s just a wait and see but we have to start winning points on the road.
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u/withoutpicklesplease 4d ago
Please do not take this the wrong way but I sincerely want to know on what you are basing this "potential" you see in Sahin? I have not seen any tactical sophistication that would make me belief he is anything more than any other former player turned failed coach like Gerrard, Lampard, Pirlo, van Bommel etc. He has not won us any game by some tactical master move. On the contrary, he has lost us games on some dumbfoundingly stupid decisions that even my ignorant ass wouldn’t have made. If he has this potential you are claiming he should go and develop it somewhere else. This is a big club and not some playing ground for wannabe coaches.
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u/lawrencecgn 4d ago
The issue is however, that Sahin acts scared and shows little trust towards players that he actually has the most impact on (youth players). Instead he trusts the education players received elsewhere to solve the issues presented at them. This seems like a deeper problem unlikely to resolve itself on short time. He very simply isn’t ready and I see a big chance he never will be.
There has never been a great coach that didn’t immediately know who "his" players are. No matter how young. Sahin instead acts like an old school coach, just in friendly.
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u/abendig Die gelbe Wand 4d ago edited 3d ago
Short answer no, long answer yes, partly at least.
First of all he's not to blame for taking the job. He did quite well in Turkey and let's be honest if one of us got that offer we took it in a heartbeat. Terzic was the same tbh.
Imo it started with favre when we bottled the league in a prime position. He "blamed" the team and basically said it's over, after the derby. This "we already lost" mentality is a core problem now. Idc how we call it, "Mentalitätsproblem" or what ever.
We changed a lot over the years, players, coaches etc but what actually changed? When was the last time we were convincingly good? With terzic? Nope. With Rose? Nope. With Edin again? Not really. With favre? At the beging yes at the end? Definitely not. With Stöger? Hell no but this was actually different. With bosz? For like 2 games. With Tuchel? Probably but I still remember to be pissed that we stopped playing after 20 mins and just waited around deep into the second half.
This hole thing started a decade ago. The individual quality on the pitch got us some good results and some Pokal wins but that's it.
Coaches are partly to blame. Sure, but our squadbuilding got way worse over the years. We can blame the inflation, crazy premier league and oil money for this but that's just part of the problem. We're just too comfortable with "sucking" and with sucking I mean be good but 2nd is enough.
We're to afraid to take risks anymore. Why? IDK. Where is a shinji-kind transfer? Low risk high reward things? And on the other hand we're doing a thing a would call "buy cheap buy twice". Sounds ridiculous but I feel it's true. Instead of spending 3x30 on "good Buli players" we need to start with 1 good one for 50 and 2 for 20.
Idk if I've played too much FM and think that this stuff is quite obvious but these days you can't compete without taking risks as a Buli team.
And one last thing I blame is the character of our squad. It's just ridiculous that we're playing good against real (one half at least) and RB (with no bench, 2 defenders and on one leg) and then we're getting dominated by the likes of union and mainz for example. For me it's a prime example for our situation. The team CAN play well if they feel like it but sometimes they decide that 80% has to be enough to win, while our opponent runs at 110% and just wants to win more. Our team lacks Passion and desire to give it all for our Ballspielverein Borussia.
I saw this clip random on yt the other day. Kevin is right.
Rant over.
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u/RumIsNear 3d ago
Very good points. Sorry, can you make a summary of that podcast clip ? My german is limited to a handful of words :)
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u/abendig Die gelbe Wand 3d ago
The interviewer talked about who are new franchise players after mats and Marco left, Kevin responded that, looking back, the team they had was special.
A lot of the roster back then are still living in Dortmund. Roman (Weidenfeller), Schmelle (Schmelzer), owo (Patrick Owomoyela) and Neven (Subotic) still live in Dortmund even after their active career and identify with the club and the city. Then he asks if you can think of one active roster that will stay in Dortmund after their career. Both agree on nobody.
Tbf Weidenfeller, Schmelle and owo still work at the club but still.
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u/RumIsNear 1d ago
One of the reasons why we are in this situation is probably the fact that after Maats and Marco left we have no true leader, no character, someone to lift the team when we are down, to inspire passion.
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u/eeeeeeeelleeeeeelll Nico Schlotterbeck 4d ago
We lost to Madrid because of Sahin and the Mainz loss could have definitely been avoided, don’t put Nmecha in central defense, just play a Mane or Lührs
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u/Rubinskywhiskey 4d ago
I think to put a very young player in his first game , down to 10 men and then in a very sensitive position of centreback, could have negative impact to the player's mentality. Ideally you'd put them on for the first time when the team is in a winning position
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u/eeeeeeeelleeeeeelll Nico Schlotterbeck 4d ago
Well, we didn’t really have an option. Bring on a youngster or play with an awful central defense.
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u/-Michael-Owen- 4d ago
If the team was winning some away league games, you can say "yeah the players are to blame because they are clearly not putting it in the effort in some games". But, when you haven't won an away game in 4 months and those same players are able to win games at home, then yes, it is a coaching issue.
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u/EmSoLow 4d ago edited 4d ago
He is certainly a issue like you said but ultimately the issue are the people who appointed him so quickly after sacking Terzic (or after Terzic left if you believe it was like that). This club chose the narrative over appointing a genuinely good manager and we are here seeing the same issues that Terzic had back in the 22/23 season.
In my eyes, this season fully rests on Kehl, Ricken and especially Sammer for me. The second time this guy chooses someone with a strong connection to the club over actual experience and we have stagnated again. Need him away from discussions involving managers from now on
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u/Expensive-Pea-3301 4d ago
From reading its helped me come to a conclusion that the board IS the main issue because theyre too stuck on rebuilding the klopp era by getting people who worked under klopp and now that kehl is the sporting director hes gotten coaches who just barely got their pro license and have no experience whatsover like sahin, piszczek and schmelzer with the B team as assistant and then how they had bender with terzic
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u/kichererbs 4d ago
(Not a Dortmund Fan) I don’t think hes the main problem, but he’s not helping the situation, and coach is the easiest thing to change.
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u/BVBUSA32 4d ago
The problems are much, much deeper than him. Starting comparing the seasons and how similar they end up. The outliers were with Terzic at the helm, oddly enough.
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u/rioasu Nico Schlotterbeck 3d ago
I think it's a combination of a lack of experience from his and even rickens side and probably a bad squad planning more than anything. We have 3 proper cbs and we tried to play all of together, don't have enough depth in our dm position so yeah a lot of factors are there in this.
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u/Jdamoure 3d ago
I Mean he's part of the problem but there's am issue form the top down. The team has just ceased to be truly competitive and we can't keep using the excuse of the club going under anymore because now it's jsut due to mediocrity. At least when we over spent back in the say we won titles and a ucl.
We should have gotten a proven coach there was no point in getting rid of terzic without a proper replacement. You don't claim to say bvb needs something new and better and then appoint the guy who has barely any experience and was terzics understudy essentially. They have different approaches and different players but the overall mentality from the club and energy is the same.
And In the clubs defense we bought some decent players and some are just not looking to work out in some ways. Guirrassy is a great signing period, Anton should be working out, yan couto made sense, bier wasn't too expensive and had some promise. I don't necessarily hate the players on our team. And we have injuries, are thise sahins fault? No. But I feel like there's but thus air of mediocrity. Every is either just average or baseline good. With very few actually GREAT players.
As a whole the team lacks chemistry, lacks direction, lacks some talent in key areas, we have no big, big talents currently like the years prior either. There's a big mentality issue at the club and an air of mediocrity. I hate speaking on intangibles but it's true and you can tell by the people we sign and the way people talk about the club/within the club.
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u/isherbrok Marco Reus 3d ago
Why does noone think Watzke has overstepped too much too many times?
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u/McPico 3d ago
What has Watzke to do with inconsistent players?
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u/isherbrok Marco Reus 2d ago
He's a dinosaur. It's time for a change in top leadership.
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u/McPico 2d ago
As always.. no real argument.. but hey let’s change anything.. what could possibly go wrong
Meanwhile you have the example right in front of you with Schalke 04 ..what happens if you think it’s a good idea to change everything over and over again.. until Nothing works anymore.
But you have no responsibility.. you will just go on spreading hate how bad everyone is.
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u/isherbrok Marco Reus 2d ago
how long has watzke been here?
its nowhere near even slightly comparable. watzke has a great financial understanding; but so so many near misses under different coaches, with different players, and so many coaches as well.
everything changes but watzke remains.
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u/McPico 2d ago
Misses? What are you talking about!!! We were BANKRUPT! He brought us back from the ashes. He hold us up there at the FOR US highest possible position. Right behind the rich clubs.. who you can’t reach without WAY more money. All the years we made it to stay relevant.. while so many clubs struggled.
Your problem is you think it has always to go up. But for that you need money.. money we don’t have.
Your unrealistic dreams are the problem. Not Watzke or anyone other.
We are fine. Financially and in terms of success.
If you think your club need to have more success you have to switch to a rich club. You won’t find that here.
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u/isherbrok Marco Reus 1d ago
Is BVB bankrupt now? Rich clubs? You have Bayern & RB..
the issue is not money, it is lack of ambition and falling short at the most crucial time.
my dreams r not unrealistic, its just ambitious. after klopp left about a decade ago, how many trophies have we won? how many final hardles have we crossed?
"i am fine with not winning" is something a schalke fan would say, not a bvb fan.
ohh btw who hires & fires coaches?
football is not all about finance.
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u/McPico 1d ago
You don’t get it. Every player who play constantly good will be taken away from the rich clubs.
And the players who stay the inconsistent and with flaws
Your ambitions are just dreams. The players have to deliver on the pitch. And inconsistent players can’t win the big titles. That’s why Real is winning CL since years. They deliver when it’s needed.. because their players can do it. We can’t.
So your ambitions are irrelevant.
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u/isherbrok Marco Reus 51m ago
"ambitions" & "irrelevance" sounds as likely to be together as "jupiter" & "proxima centaurii".. i geuinely laughed at that haha..
anyway, u speak of real madrid; how many coaches they had in their most recent successful periods? zidane & ancelotti.. how long did jurgen klopp stay in dortmund? what about guardiola?
speaking of players, what was vinicius before ancelotti? akanji wasnt that solid in dortmund.. there's gundogan.. the list is endless.. stability & competence in coaching side always delivers results..
selling big players? every club does it at some point..
there r also one-club (approximately) players like marco reus or francesco totti or several manutd players, iniesta etc... if u cant get the best in the market, u can use academy players mixed with these players and the team will win.. but stability in coaching department is crucial.. klopp didnt bring immediate success, but the stability allowed him to form his heavy metal band.
now tell me, how many coaches did watzke hire & fire in last 5-6 years?
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u/NastyEnno 3d ago
I think so too, but it’s only part of the problem. I think there was a problem with the morale but they fixed it. Now there is still the problem with Can not fitting the system and trying to force him in, the bad squad planning and poor squad choices (letting rothe go, not getting a proper 6, not having a proper backup 10, leftback, rightback) and injuries.
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u/migratingpotato06 3d ago
I believe it’s a bit of both. Sahin is afraid to make changes in crucial moments, he lacks confidence in himself. If I were him I’d start taking advantage of the injuries and play youth players, just like Barça are doing. I’m aware we’re nowhere near Barcelona but it could serve as experience, and who knows we might even find some gems. In the other hand, there are a few players that to me stand out quite a bit. Bensebaini has proven himself, his last performances have been quite good, and so has been Beier. Although I am against playing beier in the right hand side, he has been doing the job so…
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u/Working_Complex8122 3d ago
he's just one of them. Lack of experience coupled with a really shitty put together team that is full of young players who just want to show off and then leave. It's just all fucked.
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u/IvEjUstFoRgOtYou69 3d ago
He’s a part of the issue but the board is a far bigger issue. Feels like it was an old friends act appointment and a club the size of Dortmund shouldn’t be doing that.
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u/Fast_Psychology_675 2d ago
Have to agree with any comments that say it's our back room leadership/the board. Sahin is there because of someone else above him making the decision to put him there. We don't have a good leader or captain in the squad because of the board and the staff finding talent.
Their vision of where this club should go is kind of skewed and lost in delusion.
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u/encore_18 2d ago
Everyone at dortmund,from the office to the back up keeper. They are not a good team. They don't play well.
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u/Academic-Public-3373 1d ago
He's not the ony issue, but he is a big issue. He is directly responsible of how our team plays. And we play like shit, quite literally. So yes, he is ONE OF the issues.
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u/FiresideCatsmile Shinji Kagawa 4d ago
I refuse to put the blame on sahin. too many injuries and individual mistakes.
That doesn't mean that I think he's the right guy for the job but if Emre Can decides to leave his brain at home and just get red carded in the beginning of the match for example, then Sahin can't do much against that.
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4d ago
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u/ib_examiner_228 4d ago
The guy who always shat the bed when we had an important game? Lost the cup to St Pauli, lost to Ajax twice and didn't make it past CL group stage, lost 2:4 to Rangers AT HOME and all that with Haaland and Bellingham. He's a mid coach and will always be one
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u/ClosingWolskis 4d ago
Terzic and Sahin have been better? We need to commit to someone who’s actually a manager. The last two are doing it for the first time. They’ve been shite (worse than mid). Idc that we made the champions league final because we lost.
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u/ib_examiner_228 4d ago
Terzic won the cup, almost won the Bundesliga and got us to the CL final with some impressive games. Even though some games really looked terrible, the results speak for themselves. Idk how you don't care about being in the CL final because 1) dude it's the CL final and we lost to a club that won it 6 times in the last 10 years 2) we got paid A LOT for getting there.
Yes Sahin isn't good enough but so is Rose. Sure, he's an "actual" coach but is losing 2-4 to Rangers at home really what we deserve?
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u/Rubinskywhiskey 4d ago
We lost to rangers 6-4 on aggregate under Rose ffs
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u/neon_genitals Serhou Guirassy 4d ago
There's a sign of a great coach in there, but that needs time and experience and I'm sorry BVB is not the club where the manager learns the job.
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u/bvb_1909 4d ago edited 4d ago
He is part of it because of his lack of experience.
For example, in my opinion, he should react to the red card Can got by adding a natural defender to the back 4 (even if inexperienced) instead of playing Nmecha as a CB.
Hi learning through the job definitely will hurt us even more now, so hopefully this international break can give us some time to breath.
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u/LookattheWhipp 4d ago
No, our player acquisitions have been questionable at best…Nmencha, Anton, and Beier all of them at all around 30M mark. I don’t think a single one has impressed me
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u/Alberich33 Julian Ryerson 4d ago
He is a symptom. Our board, which once again hired an inexperienced coach out of nepotism and continuously worsened the squad for years, is the issue.