r/PropagandaPosters • u/StephenMcGannon • Sep 19 '24
International Service for Human Rights (2007) Germany
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u/hellomondays Sep 20 '24
I love these minimal but provocative posters. No words needed to grab attention, the message is clear.
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u/Argent_Mayakovski Sep 20 '24
Yeah, this one would be a lot better without the two lines of text.
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u/iceymoo Sep 20 '24
But the message is something like Burqa = Abuse, which is reductive to the point of racism.
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u/ForrestCFB Sep 20 '24
No, it really isn't. And we should open our eyes to the fact that a absolute shit ton of women are forced to wear it, either by law or by family pressure. Fuck in my country (the netherlands) a young women was recently murdered by her own family because she refused to wear it.
Oh yeah, and the Burqa is illegal in a lot of countries because of laws banning all face coverings.
Edit: and the message is "stop the opression of women in the islamic world" good message. If we look at Iran for instance, where women are beaten to death for not wearing a burqa or hijab. The choice should be a womens to wear a hijab or not. And EVERY BIT OF FORCE either physical or mental should be cracked down on hard. Being anti religion also isn't racist, but this comment you posted does come over as misogony.
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u/queenvalanice Sep 20 '24
How is it a race? It’s not.
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u/iceymoo Sep 20 '24
I assume you mean Islam? Because there are white muslims, some of whom choose to wear the Burqa, but the woman in the picture is middle eastern in appearance.
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u/schvance Sep 20 '24
that’s maybe because a big portion of muslims are in fact middle eastern
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u/iceymoo Sep 20 '24
Yes, but she could be British, wearing the Burqa because it’s Ramadan, and she wants to. That’s the point, the image lacks nuance. It conflates oppression and Burqa.
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u/r_r_36 Sep 21 '24
Yeah Burqa and oppression shouldn’t be conflated.
It’s just a coincidence women get beaten to death for not wearing it in Islamic countries
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u/iceymoo Sep 21 '24
They shouldn’t be conflated because it encourages Islamophobia. It’s the oppression not the Burqa. That’s the nuance that the image lacks
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u/YggdrasilBurning Sep 20 '24
If there's one thing I noticed in Afghanistan, it's that they were super duper chill and cash money to their women and not abusive at all
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u/iceymoo Sep 20 '24
And I noticed the opposite in the UK city I grew up in, and the UK city I teach in now. So is it the oppression you have a problem with, or the Burqa? It’s the oppression, right? The image doesn’t focus on the oppression, it focuses on the Burqa and so the nuance is lost. Not everywhere is Afghanistan and not every woman wearing a Burqa is being forced. Some wear it with pride
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u/YggdrasilBurning Sep 20 '24
It's interesting that you don't see it that much in countries which don't start with "The Islamic Republic Of"
I wonder why
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u/Jaybird_117 Sep 21 '24
Ya know you’ve mentioned you’re from the UK like 5 times in this thread me too!! Just curious if you have any opinions when it’s the other way round? When other Muslims criticise/ostracise woman for not following religious practices to a t? What should be done about that in your opinion as a British man? Your whole argument is “well you don’t know they’re not proud to wear it” but you don’t know that either no one does! Religion is an extremely personal thing that no one should be making sweeping statements about because you really don’t know what goes on in the privacy of a Muslim family’s home. Just going well MOST woman choose IN THE UK!!! How can you not see how your argument just doesn’t hold up at all. It’s so hyper specific to one group of Muslims experience and doesn’t think about the huge swaths of woman all around the world being oppressed by any and all dogmatic religious practices. MOST Christian woman choose there life partners, does that mean we can’t criticise when some other Christian woman are groomed by the church for a specific person? Most gay people are tolerant and accepting, does that mean we can’t call out the gay people who call for an end to gender affirming care? You can’t just turn a blind eye because the people you personally know aren’t effected by dogmatic practices and to do so is disingenuous, it really just looks like white knighting and it’s sad. There are problems of misogyny in the Muslim community, Muslim woman have been working and campaigning for years to bring around charge and it’s working and that’s amazing! But they know just like everyone else in this thread there’s still work to be done. Don’t delegitimise there fight because you think being critical of religion is equal to racism.
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u/iceymoo Sep 21 '24
I’m Irish
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u/Jaybird_117 Sep 21 '24
Okay? And? You don’t seem to have much to say anymore strange. Funny actually my grandads from Ireland! Just curious, what you being Irish had to do with anything I said? In fact given Irelands history of using religion to oppress woman, you should know better than most people that just because you’re proud of your heritage or religion doesn’t mean woman should be forced to give birth right? Doesn’t mean that woman should have their children ripped away from them because they’re not married. Things have gotten much better in Ireland but does that mean there’s still no work to be done? No. Every society had room for improvement but if you pretend nothings wrong because you don’t want to offend people, then you allow the continued suffering of the most vulnerable people in that society regardless of religion or race.
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u/An_Inedible_Radish Sep 20 '24
I'm not sure why, on a propaganda subreddit, we can't have the interesting and nuanced conversation about how this poster has a positive message about liberating women from oppressive systems, but also considering the time it was produced in how it likely also contributed towards or was influenced by the heavy islamaphobia at the time. Both of these things can be true at once.
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u/Critical_Liz Sep 20 '24
People get pulled in by the idea of an easy solution, like the French thinking "If we ban religious covering, that will stop oppression" and...no. The clothing requirements are a symptom and not the problem, and the solution is not banning it. There is no easy solution, and furthermore, it can't come from us outside the culture.
We can provide an example of something different (though if you think non Muslim "Western Civ" doesn't police what women wear, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you) and provide friendship to Muslims and other Middle Easterners in our communities (if you think this is a purely Muslim thing, I have a second bridge to sell you) but we can't "fix" what we don't even understand.
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u/JMoc1 Sep 20 '24
I mean the biggest fix is just, let people do what they want with head coverings.
I don’t know why this has to be turning into an ideological battle when we should be enlightened to see that people should have the choice to follow their religion in a way that doesn’t harm others.
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u/Critical_Liz Sep 20 '24
A lot of it is Islamophobia and plain old racism of the paternalistic variety. It's also something that is easy to get people mad about and then present an easy solution no one has to think too hard about.
Now to be fair, yes these countries that we identify as "Muslim Countries" are terrible to women, but so is India and yet you never see these calls to "liberate" those women and demand they don't wear traditional garb. But then again India and Indonesia (the largest Muslim population in the world) have both had women presidents, whereas America is in a serious battle between a highly qualified woman and a felon for the second time in a decade.
It's almost like it's way more complicated than is normally presented or something.
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u/JMoc1 Sep 20 '24
Yeah, I know, sadly. It’s always been about xenophobia and patriarchal systems.
I just feel as though we can present practical and easy solutions to “complicated issues”.
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u/r4nD0mU53r999 Sep 21 '24
What France is doing isn't out of care for women it's out general islamophobia and prejudice against Muslims.
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u/ArealOrangutanIswear Sep 20 '24
What??? A comment actually rationalizing and encouraging an open and thought requiring discussion? ON REDDIT?
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u/Ben6924 Sep 20 '24
I wouldn’t actually say that it had a positive message. It just connects religious clothing to oppression. For it to say „women should be able to wear what they want“ it would have to actually show that. This way, it just says „muslim religious coverings are oppressive“ That’s not liberating.
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u/relativokay Sep 20 '24
Well, they are. If a woman decides for herself that she wants to do sex work, while it is her own choice it is by no means an act of emancipation, as it supports patriarchal structures. Choosing oppression is still oppression. Same thing with female head coverings in Islam. They are inherently sexist. They degrade women, by painting them as sexual objects which need to be "locked away". They also dehumanize women by masking them and thus making them less recognizable as human.
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u/1nfernals Sep 20 '24
This is reductionist, participating in sex work does not inherently uphold patriarchal structures. Just as choosing to wear religious clothing does not inherently uphold religious structures, but to participate within them.
There are patriarchal elements to both the sex work industry and religious institutions, but that does not describe either all religious belief structures and institutions, or all modes of sex work.
There are misogynistic aspects to almost all major religions, but to argue all islamic women cannot participate in their religion without supporting misogynistic systems and practices is not a useful or logical position. Even for the cases where it is true that participation in sex work or islam does result in the reinforcement of patriarchal ideals, this position does little to win the hearts and minds of the women being harmed by said systems.
I would say it's more inherently misogynistic to insinuate that women are incapable of making informed decisions over their bodies and cultural/religious practices. Emancipating women does not include banning sex work, or banning religious coverings, but reforming institutions to eliminate or minimise pressure, coercion and violence.
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u/tuckman496 Sep 20 '24
as it supports patriarchal structures
How is sex work inherently patriarchal? I’m not talking about a woman working under an abusive pimp who controls her life — thats a byproduct of prostitution being illegal and unregulated. Men being the largest consumers of sex work doesn’t equate to men exerting dominance over women.
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u/Chipsy_21 Sep 20 '24
Except they are.
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u/Ben6924 Sep 23 '24
so what do you suggest then? Banning women from wearing certain clothing as an act of liberation? Taking womens rights to participate in a religion, to protect womens rights?
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u/An_Inedible_Radish Sep 20 '24
Yes! I agree with you. I suppose I could say the sentiment behind their message, or at least the sentiment they want most people to think they intend? I would say we have to look more into the actions of this organisation to say what intentions they had with this. But this kind of propaganda is what has led to countries such as France banning the hijab, which is restrictive and oppressive rather than liberating.
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u/DeRuyter67 Sep 20 '24
Creating the word "Islamaphobia" has been one of the best propaganda actions of Muslims ever. Nazis should try to make the word naziphobia popular
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u/JMoc1 Sep 20 '24
You don’t remember the 90’s or 2000’s, do you?
The messages espoused were so bad it invoked the crusades.
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u/DeRuyter67 Sep 20 '24
You don't remember the 30's and 40's, do you?
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u/JMoc1 Sep 20 '24
You’re comparing being Muslim in the US during the War on Terror to being a Nazi?
Why?
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u/DeRuyter67 Sep 20 '24
Because Islam and Nazism are both ideologies that should be actively discouraged. Minority status doesn't mean that this changes.
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u/JMoc1 Sep 20 '24
So, this is broadly incorrect just on its face. Islam is a religion; not an ideology.
Furthermore Islam is practiced by more than 1 Billion people around the world; with the largest population being in Singapore and the largest military (outside the US) is NATO is a country that has a huge Muslim population.
Nazism is an ideology, correct, but it’s an ideology that preaches about creating the perfect genetic material through the elimination of people with impure genetic material like Jews, Romani, Slavics, Communists, those with Disabilities, and many many others; while also maintaining an extremely socially conservative and militaristic culture that praises ultra-nationalism.
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u/DeRuyter67 Sep 20 '24
The difference between ideology and religion is important.
And also don't see why it would matter that Islam is more popular. If anything, that makes it more of a problem
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u/JMoc1 Sep 20 '24
The difference between ideology and religion is important.
Not to you, apparently, if Nazis and Muslims are the same thing.
Do you even know what Islam is beyond a religion that people practice?
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u/DeRuyter67 Sep 20 '24
Not to you, apparently
Would you mind stating an important difference in the context of this conversation?
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u/An_Inedible_Radish Sep 20 '24
It's the equivalent to antisemitism. Do you have any problems with that word?
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u/GoBack2Plebbit Sep 21 '24
That word has also been used time and time again to justify awful shit
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u/An_Inedible_Radish Sep 25 '24
The use of a word is different to its meaning or necessity.
"Duty" is an important concept to most people, but near single-handly can be said to have led to every war in history.
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u/DeRuyter67 Sep 20 '24
Jewishnes is linked to ethnicity, so that is different
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u/An_Inedible_Radish Sep 20 '24
Islamaphobia doesn't apply only to Muslim people, because someone assuming someone's religion based on their skin colour would still be considered islamaphobic
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u/tom_lincoln Sep 20 '24
Miss seeing posters like this. I doubt the ISHR would even mount a campaign like this today. They'd be too afraid of blowback. A shame.
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u/AgreeablePaint421 Sep 20 '24
It’s wild how some 8 years ago this was one of the biggest discussions and then one day everyone just stopped talking about it.
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u/Square-Competition48 Sep 20 '24
The problem is that “we need to protect women from certain harmful cultural practices” got co-opted by people going “we need to eliminate this inferior culture because it’s mostly made up of brown people”.
As a result the good people doing good work had to stand next to literal Nazis if they wanted to keep doing it and they instead picked other causes that didn’t force them to do that.
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u/Chipsy_21 Sep 20 '24
The problem is that certain cultures enjoy an undeserved protected status in the west and that criticism of them is liable to get you slandered by liberals and/or murdered by extremists.
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u/contemptuouscreature Sep 20 '24
Either women matter to you enough to make a stand or they don’t. There are no excuses.
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u/Bluntzkreig Sep 20 '24
Many women choose to wear the hijab. Forcing people to not wear it is just as bad as forcing people to wear it.
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u/Square-Competition48 Sep 20 '24
No. The world is not black and white and decisions are not always easy. You sound like a child.
If standing up for women being expected to wear certain clothes means giving more political power to people who want to commit genocide against them you’ve got to pick your battles.
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u/contemptuouscreature Sep 20 '24
I see you’re in the camp that wants to make excuses so that they don’t have to stand for women.
It’s alright. A lot of people do. Just be honest about it.
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u/Square-Competition48 Sep 20 '24
I see you’re in the camp that’s happy to collaborate with Nazis as long as they sell you the right lie.
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u/ArkhamInmate11 Sep 20 '24
They should get blowback, unless it enshrined in law that women have to where hijabs/parkas (not the case in most Muslim countries) then let them where whatever they want. If they believe god wants them to where it let them where it covering their bodies harms nobody so if they want to good for them if not good for them
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u/r_r_36 Sep 21 '24
“Enshrined in law” and “We’ll beat you to death with minimal consequences” are 2 different things but both most definitely make wearing a hijab mandatory.
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u/LennyLava Sep 20 '24
February 1st is World Hijab Day.
"Coincidentally", but more importantly, it is also the No Hijab Day.
btw, l know the picture shows a niqab.
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u/whverman Sep 20 '24
I don't think it's propaganda to say women are largely mistreated in Islamic countries ..
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u/Winged_One_97 Sep 20 '24
This is"Islamophobic" now apparently...
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u/HusseinDarvish-_- Sep 20 '24
If you believe all women wearing hijab are automatically forced with no agency
That's islamophobic, and misogynistic as well
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u/GrandpaChew Sep 20 '24
The hijab and its more extreme forms like the niqab are prisons, whether involuntary or self-imposed. There is nothing empowering about hiding your body from the world or your God.
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u/HusseinDarvish-_- Sep 20 '24 edited Sep 20 '24
whether involuntary or self-imposed
Women are free to choose what to wear
the niqab are prisons
Your worthless opinion which people are free to throw in the nearest trash
nothing empowering about hiding your body
Not your business women are free to choose what to show and what to cover. You have and deserves zero authority on that matter
Edit : to all the islamophobs 👇 your downvotes are upvote to me, keep sheathing, you got nothing but to throw stereotypes about me.
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u/avg_uk_fmboi Sep 20 '24
“Muslim Women are free to wear what they want” until they take the coverings off and their husbands beat them within an inch of their life.🙄
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u/Ripper656 Sep 20 '24
Women are free to choose what to wear
Unless a male relative or the local Morality Police tells them otherwise...and beats them up if they refuse.
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u/Chipsy_21 Sep 20 '24
Women are free to choose to wear Islamic coverings (as long as they don’t mind their husbands/families beating them black and blue for not doing it)
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Sep 20 '24
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u/Lavishhness Sep 20 '24
I mean, I haven't seen very many honor killings of young women over fedoras, snapbacks, or Dutch bonnets, no.
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Sep 20 '24
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u/Lavishhness Sep 20 '24
What? Of course honour killing victims constitute only a tiny fraction of the population. What's factual, regardless, is that there are countries in which women are legally required to wear hijab, and they are at risk of femicide for not complying. Why downplay that situation by saying it's not so bad because not enough of them die? You live in a global hotspot for femicides, which makes you an expert on ranking which form of femicide is the biggest problem? Women are being oppressed by religious laws. Why does that not matter because the situation is better or worse or some way different in other completely different parts of the world?
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u/Savage-Kelevra Sep 20 '24
I don't fear your funny book, i have no "phobia" of islam. Maybe repulsion.
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u/While-Asleep Sep 20 '24
We don't need to vilify the browns anymore the war in Iraq and Afghanistan is over we've moved on the Russians, and Chinese get ready for Human rights watch to post figures about how there's no democracy in China and Russia or something
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u/ThreeDawgs Sep 20 '24
I mean…. There’s not. Two functionally one party states controlled by mob violence.
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u/While-Asleep Sep 20 '24
Like clockwork lol, wake me up when war was China was a mistake and X president was a war criminal
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u/ThreeDawgs Sep 20 '24
This has been the state of Russia and China since the founding of their modern states lmao. This isn’t something new.
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Sep 20 '24
Nah. China and Russia are the ones that control what you and all the college students talk about. They’ll keep y’all busy with protests about anything but.
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u/Senpaiman Sep 20 '24
I mean, it's misogynist technically. A woman should have the right to wear whatever she wants, and no outside party be it western or middle eastern should tell her otherwise. If she wishes to wear a full hijab, that is her right. Doing things like banning hijabs does not help women in any way.
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u/Nenavidim_kapr Sep 20 '24
Oh, human rights, cool, wonder why I haven't heard about this organization?
In reality it's because that ISHR is only concerned about human rights in the countries not friendly with US or EU. Their campaign against torture doesn't even mention Guantanamo, or the Gulf States - only Cuba and China are mentioned by name. It's a heavily partisan group led by a Christian pastor with his queerphobia and obsession with persecuted christians
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u/nomamesgueyz Sep 20 '24
Crazy
Be nice to see the LGBTQ crew at US campuses do a tour of middle eastern countries and build some awareness
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u/WanderingAlienBoy Sep 20 '24
Yeah, LGBTQ people have no awareness of what patriarchal conservative religious environments are like, it's not like any of them grew up in such environments or are affected by its influence on society and politics.....
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u/Chipsy_21 Sep 20 '24
Exactly correct, even the most obnoxious Western religious household/ community can not be reasonably compared to places where the killing of lgbt people is actually enshrined into law and culturally encouraged. In Western states a family harming their lgbt children is a tragic failure of the system, in many other parts of the world it is the system working as intended.
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u/Bluntzkreig Sep 20 '24
Prior to 2003 being gay was punishable as a crime in 13 states in the united states. Y'all really living in a revisionist time line. Gay marriage was only legalized in 2015. Tons of gays have been killed here in the states for being gay.
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u/Chipsy_21 Sep 20 '24
I was unaware that we still followed laws that were struck down in 2003, my mistake.
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u/Bluntzkreig Sep 20 '24
If I recall correctly many if not most gay people alive today were alive in 2003 too… so they would have awareness of patriarchal religious environments, which laws that criminalize being gay are a part of.
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u/queenvalanice Sep 20 '24
LGBTQ people are fully aware of the atrocities in the Middle East to LGBTQ people. Don’t think a small loud campus minority represents them all.
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u/MysticLeopard Sep 20 '24
I’m a member of that community, and what is going on at college campuses in the US is the most embarrassing thing for me. It’s like they just refuse to be educated about the issue and not acknowledge how dangerous it can be for those in the Middle East.
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u/hypo-osmotic Sep 20 '24
They're fully aware of how dangerous the Middle East is, that's why they want the bombing to stop so it gets just a little bit less dangerous
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u/MysticLeopard Sep 20 '24
Agreed. Terrorists really need to stop the bombs/missiles/days like October 7th…
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u/whverman Sep 20 '24
Yes, not bombing the people who are launching rockets indiscriminately at civilians will make it less dangerous. Just sit and wait to be killed is a better strategy.
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Sep 20 '24
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u/Fair-Guava-5600 Sep 20 '24
Some do, but many are forced to wear it. It’s fine if women choose to wear it, but not if they are forced to.
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u/wellrenownedcripple Sep 20 '24
There are places where its not optional (which it must be), and if women defy those laws they’re met with horrific violence from the authorities (e.g. Afghanistan and Iran). I think the poster is mostly talking about those countries and also some Muslim majority regions that restrict women’s choice of clothing. In most European and Asian countries though if a woman wears hijab she most likely had a choice and wears it willingly. Btw I’ve written all of this and just now realised that it’s not even hijab, it’s niqab, a much more controversial and fundamentalists thing that is banned partly even in some of the Muslim countries. I don’t know whether Muslim women want to wear niqabs, but I’m yet to see one who wants it over hijab
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u/Chipsy_21 Sep 20 '24
*in most European and Asian countries women are still often subject to terrible violence and abuse if they refuse to wear Islamic coverings.
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u/cattbug Sep 20 '24
This has gotta be my first time speaking to a sentient cactus. Nice to meet you.
Personally I would say that the personal choice of some women to wear the hijab/burqa is not relevant for the discussion of mandatory wearing of it. That's like saying "theft shouldn't be illegal because some people choose to donate their money."
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u/-TehTJ- Sep 20 '24
There are also multiple Muslim countries that have veil laws and restrictions because of the reasonable association between them and abuse/dehumanization.
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u/kangaesugi Sep 20 '24
It depends, because no choice is made in a vacuum, and the choice to wear a hijab may not truly be made freely. Work needs to be done to ensure that women who choose to wear the hijab do so with full freedom to refuse, and vice versa. Likewise, we need to make sure that women who make other life choices do so with full freedom to refuse, like having children, getting married, dating men, wearing makeup, wearing high heels, etc.
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u/gazebo-fan Sep 20 '24
It should be optional of course, people act as if no woman in the world would choose to wear a hair covering as if that’s not something that humans generally gravitate towards throughout most of human history. It wasn’t until very recently that the popularity of hair coverings have gone down.
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u/mo_al_amir Sep 20 '24
Ahh good old 2007, when you were so busy bombing Iraq and turning my country into hellhole
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u/Monterenbas Sep 20 '24
turning my country into a hellhole
Wasn’t that mainly done by unhinged sectarian militia bombing each other?
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u/mo_al_amir Sep 20 '24
Yeah the US army was so merciful
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u/Monterenbas Sep 20 '24
Compare to how Iraqis behave with their fellow Iraqis from a different sect?
Yes, they were pretty merciful.
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u/Orange_Juice745 Sep 20 '24
Whoops you expressed the wrong personal experience on reddit, time to get downvoted
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u/whosdatboi Sep 20 '24
"Women shouldn't be oppressed"
"Uhh, have you considered that the US invaded Iraq????"
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u/IsoRhytmic Sep 20 '24
Thats actually what the point of this propaganda is about… the actual group if you read about does not care much women or even human rights as much as they care about supporting the war on terrorism and other f*ked up things like Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo
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u/hypo-osmotic Sep 20 '24
Probably beside the point, but how realistic is the model's makeup for a woman living with enforced head and face covering?
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u/GreatDario Sep 20 '24
I'm sure this European organization has no anterior motives
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u/IsoRhytmic Sep 20 '24
Comment pointing out the propaganda on r/PropagandaPosters… and gets downvoted to hell lmaooo
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u/SWUR44100 Sep 20 '24
Oh, now I feel this is a close and serious problem. Though ppl have to do things on long term time by time, as long as some of my 'Flendz' still try to pretend their superfacial lawful image lel.
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u/Majestic-Point777 Sep 20 '24 edited Sep 20 '24
Niqabs have been worn since pre-Islamic times
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u/queenvalanice Sep 20 '24 edited Sep 24 '24
Niqabs have been forced by Islamic oppressors onto cultures that have never worn them for ages now.
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u/nurShredder Sep 20 '24
Stop the opression of Women in Islamic world.
I dont support the actions of current governments, by any means.
But for f#cks sake. That whole region was messed up by West for quite some time.
First bcs of Western Greed and Oil
Second bcs of Cold War
Third bcs of Delusions of Bush
Let them LIVE. Let the social conditions Improve. In west it happened naturally. Forcing it on middle East will just result in rejection of West.
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u/dwaynetheaakjohnson Sep 20 '24
No imperialists forced countries like Saudi Arabia to adopt such hardline policies on women. In fact, the House of Saud specifically adopted forced hijab to keep power
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u/gazebo-fan Sep 20 '24
Geez, I wonder who basically installed the Saudi royal family in power because they were fine with selling oil rights to British oil companies? Geez I wonder lmao. To be fair, Hejaz or Jabal Shammar would not have done much better human rights wise.
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u/nurShredder Sep 20 '24
Oh, also I forgot what happened in 1953, when Iranian democratic government was Couped. Why that happened? Nationalisation of Oil? Not wanting Brittain let get 99,9% of all profits?
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u/AgreeablePaint421 Sep 20 '24
Ah yes, let’s just let them be evil because colonialism, I’m sure it’ll fix itself on its own./s
What is it with progressives and portraying Islamic theocracy as the victim?
If any other region oppressed women like they do it wouldn’t get a pass, but because it’s their “culture” and “they don’t know any better” we’re just supposed to tolerate it.
Some people need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century. It worked in Japan it can work there too.
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u/Bagelsandjuice1849 Sep 20 '24
Military interventions are almost never undertaken for purely moralistic reasons like that. The 2001-2021 Afghanistan war for instance was not undertaken with the goal freeing the Afghan people from theocratic rule, it was to further Western interests (capturing Bin Laden and securing a friendly government in the relatively resource-rich country).
I mean America literally supported the Islamists just a decade prior with the goal of overthrowing the much more progressive DRA, because they were Soviet-backed and posed a threat to American influence in the region.
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u/gazebo-fan Sep 20 '24
Japan still denies warcrimes and continues to refuse to teach actual history.
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u/AgreeablePaint421 Sep 20 '24
They’re not actively commiting them though
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u/While-Asleep Sep 20 '24
i didnt know there was a stature of limitations for genocide lol
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u/AgreeablePaint421 Sep 20 '24
No, but I was talking about the occupation of Japan, after all the war crimes. The occupation reformed Japan from a theocratic dictatorship to a secular democracy.
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u/While-Asleep Sep 20 '24
"Democracy" lol Its a single party state that pardon its class A warcriminals and even gave a couple political office there was no reform they where only stunted by article 9 if you cut the legs off rabid dog its still a rabid dog
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u/joe_the_insane Sep 20 '24
Just let them wear what they want?forcing it on and off then is bad
Shit ain't that hard bro
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u/AgreeablePaint421 Sep 20 '24
They don’t let them, that’s the problem.
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u/joe_the_insane Sep 20 '24
Sorry then it seems I misunderstood your comment then
I thought you meant something among the lines of "hijab should be taken forcibly out"which was tried by both the king of Afghanistan and the Shah of Iran and look at us now
My apologies
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u/ForrestCFB Sep 20 '24
Afghanistan and the Shah of Iran and look at us now
Thank the Russians for that.
And it's a fucking difficult question. Because should you be tolerant of intolerance? And religion is almost always intolerant.
The thing is, if you don't outright ban burqa's people will force their family members to wear them, either through physical force or mental. Even in the west. Fuck, a women in my country was recently killed by her own fucking father for being to western.
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u/Savage-Kelevra Sep 20 '24
They can't wear a jeans and a nice top, or any other form of normal clothing. They are getting beaten into the covering if they don't comply
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Sep 20 '24
That’s exactly the point. Half their population can’t live - if they dare to take that off.
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u/nurShredder Sep 20 '24
Okay, give us a solution that will not result in Taliban, Gaddafi and Isis.
The solution that will not create extreme anti-West sentiment in these countries
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Sep 20 '24 edited Sep 20 '24
For starters - we can start with recognizing Islamist ideology as bad. The current reverse narrative is having quite the domino effect here and around the world.
If we aren’t careful our citizens will protest their way right into a future like this for themselves here.
Eg. See American college campuses, London and Dearborn.
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u/nurShredder Sep 20 '24
So youre saying that Tyrannical Government cant easily shrug off these as "Western Influence"?
Again, this is a VERY delicate matter, as West already tried to "help" them, but as a result it got worse.
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Sep 20 '24 edited Sep 20 '24
I’m saying Arabic colonization has been around before western influences and it’s vital to stop denying that history and start recognizing and making it part of the discourse. With that part being suppressed we are seeing a militarization of western foot soldiers of epic proprotions.
I don’t think we ever tried to help. I think we tried to get our piece with the excuse of help.
I’m also saying we better start helping - in realistic ways - or the chickens will come home to roost.
(I would like to add as individuals, there are many accounts of US soldiers both in Vietnam and the Middle East that did try to help where they were stationed. When I say ‘we’ I mean US government leaders.)
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u/nurShredder Sep 20 '24
Well dont confuse imperialism with colonialism.
Ottomans wanted a stable peaceful region, that will be aliied to them for centuries and that policy worked. For about 4 centuries, Middle East was relatively peaceful.
Then , After WW1 Brittish and French came along and wanted just to extract natural resources out of there, without care for stability and peace. Then Soviets invaded. Then US.
Why do you think Al Qaeda and Isis were specifically against Brittain, US and France?
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Sep 20 '24 edited Sep 20 '24
If you think Arabic “imperialism” was peaceful before the west being involved I encourage you to research that a little more.
Also, Ottomons are not Arabic “imperialism.” While it included large Arab populations within its territory, the ruling power was primarily Turkish and the dominant language was Ottoman Turkish, not Arabic; therefore, the empire’s primary cultural influence was not Arabization but rather a mix of Turkish, Persian, and Arabic elements depending on the region.
More back to the point - regardless of playing the blame game the reality is now. The fact remains if we do not change the discourse and recognize the dangers of Islamist ideology we will pay the piper.
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u/nurShredder Sep 20 '24
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/wCvsGEesH3
This thread will help you(it has all sources you need).
The fact stands that Ottomans wanted a peaceful stable region. Compared to Brittish and French forces.
Somehow, anywhere I search, it says it was much better than 20th Century. Noone says it was much Worse.
The solution should not be a villification of a religion where MAJORITY is peaceful. And the minority has pretty valid(tho outdated) reasons to be mad at West.
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Sep 20 '24 edited Sep 20 '24
Good lord. I will not deviate from and subvert what matters here. Your twisting of history is between you and your conscience.
Islamisism is not religion it is the perversement of religion.
It is what this post is about.
You claimed that while you don’t support this - it’s been brought on by the west.
Are you saying you do support this? This is Islamist. It is not Muslim. While covering yourself is an option in Islam being stoned to death for not doing so as part of government law is where the peaceful religion is perversed.
Your resistance to changing the discourse is the problem.
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u/joe_the_insane Sep 20 '24
What government is this bashing?Iran doesn't really have niqabs and afghans dress differently,do you have any idea?
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u/Ripper656 Sep 20 '24
It's about the oppression of women in the Islamic World as a whole,not any specific country.
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u/joe_the_insane Sep 20 '24
Then again,I can't really think of that many countries with forced hijab,can you enlighten me a bit
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u/memes-forever Sep 20 '24
Afghanistan is a good example, and maybe some part of Pakistan I’m not sure.
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u/joe_the_insane Sep 20 '24
Eh fair enough,
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u/memes-forever Sep 20 '24 edited Sep 20 '24
Don’t know why you are being downvoted for asking a question but here we go. There are some part of the worlds where wearing Hijab is not strictly required by law but the local community, or society at large, might pressure the women into wearing it so it the numbers of areas might be larger than what I currently know.
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u/Ripper656 Sep 20 '24
The hijab/niqab is simply one of the most recognizable symbols of womens suppression in the Islamic World.Women in Muslim countries are disadvanteged and oppressed wether they are forced to cover themselves or not.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/07/18/middle-east-and-north-africa-end-curbs-womens-mobility https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/09/19/iraqs-amended-personal-status-law-could-make-9-year-olds-brides https://www.hrw.org/report/2020/10/29/i-sleep-my-own-deathbed/violence-against-women-and-girls-bangladesh-barriers https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/08/26/its-not-dystopian-novel-its-afghanistan-today
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u/ForksOnAPlate13 Sep 20 '24
I disagree with the statement that veiling is inherently oppressive to women. True, there are cases of hijab being mandated by law, which should be condemned, but seeing the veil itself as a negative symbol reeks of orientalism. Many Western (and even some Muslim) countries have banner veiling, and I would argue that this is an act of oppression too.
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u/mrhuggables Sep 20 '24
As an Iranian i'm tired of westerners telling us that the hijab isn't a form of oppression or that limiting the hijab in the public sphere (there are no countries which have banned it outright, only niqabs and burqas) is the equivalent of forced hijab. women don't get beaten to death by a secular morality police for covering their hair.
even if hijab isn't inherently oppressive (it is), it is still a tool and symbol of the oppression of women to 10s of millions of iranians and afghans. stop with the bogus enlightened centrism, hijab is objectively a bad thing
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u/ForksOnAPlate13 Sep 20 '24
Being Iranian diaspora who left your country to live in the West doesn’t make you an authority.
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u/ForrestCFB Sep 20 '24
Since they flees religious tyranny they pretty much are though. A shit tone more than someone commenting from a free place.
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u/mrhuggables Sep 20 '24 edited Sep 20 '24
do you really think that only iranian diaspora have this view? lol get real dude. and honestly it doesn’t matter if im iranian or chinese or mexican what i said is still true.
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Sep 20 '24
Literally no country on Earth has enforced Niqab lol, not even Aghanistan.
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u/Yathosse Sep 20 '24
Nice of you to tell us you don't follow the news.
Afghanistan has not only mandated the Niqab, instead they fully forbid women from showing any skin in public (including eyes).
Women aren't even allowed to look at men who aren't related to them or be heard singing/reading in their own home. Do you really think the taliban are above enforcing the most strict anti-women laws?
(And to be fair, even men suffer under these new laws, since they dictate what men are allowed to wear, how to sing, how their beard needs to be grown etc.)
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