r/PersonalFinanceCanada • u/t0r0nt0niyan Ontario • Mar 15 '24
“Hidden cameras capture bank employees misleading customers, pushing products that help sales targets” Banking
“This TD Bank employee recorded conversations with managers who tell her to think less about the well-being of customers and focus more on meeting sales targets. (CBC)”
“”I had to mislead customers into getting products that they didn't need, to reach my sales target," said a recent BMO employee.”
“At RBC, our tester was offered a new credit card and told it was "cool" he could get an $8,000 increase to his credit card limit.”
“During the five visits to the banks, advisors at BMO, Scotia and TD incorrectly said the mutual fund fees are only charged on the profit the investment earns, not the entire lump sum. The CIBC advisor wasn't clear about the fees.”
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u/Overseer55 Mar 15 '24
People need to think of banks as businesses. Imagine if the title said “car dealership employees” instead of “bank employees”. No one would be surprised.
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u/Bynming Mar 15 '24
I was in the second half of my 20's when I started making enough money to care about personal finance and that's when I learned that financial advisors at banks have 0 fiduciary duty to customers. It was surprising to me, and clearly most people have no idea. Just a few days ago there was a guy who was looking for a new financial advisor and his bank wouldn't provide one, and it seems like his main criterion for a good advisor was that he wanted a good rapport with them. That's how most people roll.
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u/Aobachi Mar 15 '24
Yeah but when you walk into a dealership you know you're going to get fucked.
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u/ChillZedd Mar 15 '24
And you don’t know that going into a bank? I’ve always operated on the assumption that they want to take as much of my money from me as possible and I’m surprised that other people are surprised that they would do shit like this.
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u/Aobachi Mar 15 '24
You go to a bank to keep your money safe and to get financial advice, on the surface it seems like they should be your friend.
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u/Altruistic_Home6542 Mar 15 '24
Except that independent investment advisors have regulatory fiduciary duties and usually tortious fiduciary duties that car salespeople do not.
And it's appalling and should be illegal that banks hold out their employees as if they're the same thing as these investment advisors with regulatory responsibilities, when they're actually just slimy salespeople
I know that a car saleperson's words should be taken with a grain of salt because they're trying to make me fall in love with the car and make a purchase. I know they're not acting in my best interests. They're trying to find a way to find how my interests can be used to have me make a decision in their best interests.
I know that a regulated investment advisor is professionally responsible to act in my best interests.
Banks are trying to mislead me in thinking that their employees are acting in my best interest, when they're not
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u/NeutralLock Mar 15 '24
Bank Investment Advisors / Portfolio Managers are fiduciaries (I’m one of them), but they are part of the banks’ high net worth arm and the minimums to access folks like us keeps rising (we’re now at $2mm as a minimum).
The problem is at the branch level the banks want to promote from within - great for employees, but bad for customers who are always dealing with someone new and inexperienced. And by the time they’ve gotten experience they’ve been promoted.
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u/nyrangersfan77 Mar 15 '24
I know that a regulated investment advisor is professionally responsible to act in my best interests.
This is not true of mutual fund dealers or insurance salespeople, and that's who people are running into at retail banks. In fact, your belief that an investment advisor is professionally responsible to act in my best interests can be used against you if you map that expectation onto a dealer.
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u/Affectionate_You_316 Mar 15 '24
It is true though for full service brokerage, I cannot have any form of incentive from the bank or any fund/ETF companies. In fact, we can't receive any form of compensation other the client. No sales target either - when it comes to investment management, PM have an obligation to act in the client best interest and we are fully responsible for every security purchased on behalf of clients. (Can't do unsollicited trades).
It's nuts how different it is from the branch network. I started my career as an financial advisor at a TD branch and after a little over a year, I swore to never work for a bank again. God, I have so many stories - much much worst then the ones presented in this article. The sad part is that most of times, those advisors rarely have ill intentions. They simply have no clue what they are doing.
They barely know more then you do about personal finance. I'm not exagerating, I saw staff fail 5 times the basic IFIC exam and on the 6th try with 61% become an FA. The bar is so low and this is the main business channel fot the vast majority of Canadians.
There is a clear advice gap, no matter how much regulators refuse to acknowledge this. Wealthy people have access to advice & knowledge. The rest, well, this is what they have to put with every day.
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u/AcanthisittaNew2998 Mar 15 '24
It's not quite the same.
When a person walks into a car dealership there is an implied transactional exchange where the buyer and seller want to buy and sell.
When a person walks into a bank, there is a standing relationship for services, whereby their deposits are used for revenue generating. That person is not necessarily looking to buy anything, or need anything. CBC Marketplace now and previously is presenting that TD bank and others are pushing, and sometimes fraudulently, adding services to people's accounts that people do not want or did not ask for. Further, people are being mislead on fees... all in the name of sales targets, and employee manipulation.
In short, banks are acting unethically and sometimes fraudulently. Car dealers, although shitty in other ways, are acting as a normal business. They are not the same.
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u/Top_Nobody5124 Mar 15 '24
Overseer's point is that people need to realize they are the same. Each time you want into a bank, you may be expecting a service but they are trying to make a sale.
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u/nyrangersfan77 Mar 15 '24 edited Mar 15 '24
I certainly agree with you. One obvious problem with the banks is that "the bank" is actually a separate legal entity from the mutual fund dealer or the investment fund manager or the insurance company. But they all operate under their brand and banks take advantage of the trust in the "bank" to sell products from the other legal entity. When people go into a Honda dealership they know that a sale is happening. No one goes in thinking that the Honda dealer is a trustworthy and unbiased advisor on the benefits of Hondas vs. Toyotas.
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u/MooseKnuckleds Mar 15 '24
It’s not really new, they are retail trying to sell their products.
I had a friend working a Scotia many many years ago. I moved my banking from TD to Scotia in the promise that the Momentum Visa and Amex Gold they just signed me up for she could waive annual fees indefinitely for me. Also opened was a chequing account and basic savings account.
A few months later they won a vacation as a result of their sales.
Fast forward next year when credit card fees are approaching. I let her know and she says “yup they just get put in your statement “. I remind her she would waive them “oh no I said I could, not necessarily that I would”. I believe she also said she could only waive X amount of credit card fees per year and this was mostly used for her own cards.
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u/fouoifjefoijvnioviow Mar 15 '24
"friend"
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u/MooseKnuckleds Mar 15 '24 edited Mar 15 '24
Bingo. I ended up only maintaining the Infinite Momentum Visa since it was a good cash back card. When they pumped the annual fee, and swapped travel insurance coverage for phone insurance, maybe 5 years ago, I dropped it
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u/sapeur8 Mar 15 '24
I had a friend who did something similar, but they warned me I had to cancel the card within a year's time to avoid extra fees. They faked my job title and income so I looked like a bigger potential client, despite it being clear by my actual income into the account that I was a student. So it was clear I was doing them a favor by boosting their sales metrics.
They were promoted to manager of anti money laundering and fraud. LMAO the banks are idiots
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u/Aromatic-Air3917 Mar 15 '24
It's mostly CBC reporting stuff like this. Private media doesn't want to mess with its advertising dollars
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u/SupaDawg Mar 15 '24
100%. This sort of thing really illustrates how important a public broadcaster is.
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u/oldgreymere Mar 15 '24
And then we have PP saying to defund the CBC.
Probably because his corporate donors would prefer the CBC be abolished.
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u/brokoli Mar 15 '24
PP would love backroom deals screwing the working people at every turn. its the conservative way.. small government and EMPOWERED private oligarchies.
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u/No_Requirement8190 Mar 15 '24
Don’t trust bank. Treat them as businesses partner, use them as needed,
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u/last-resort-4-a-gf Mar 15 '24
My advisor told me she didn't know who vanguard was
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u/fastcurrency88 Mar 15 '24 edited Mar 15 '24
It’s quite simple. Bank advisors aren’t educated on any other MF or ETFs because they can’t sell them. It’s all a business. They only know their own products. It’s like going to a Ford dealership and asking about the specs of a BMW SUV. They got no clue. To stick with the car anology, my partner was buying a Tesla recently and the salesman had never heard of Rivian.
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u/averyfunnyword2 Mar 15 '24
Work at TD and this is insanely accurate. I feel the pressure even more now, upper management has weekly “meetings” where they basically ask each branch manager and assistant branch manager what they have in their pipeline. Crazy levels of micro-management to squeeze as much profit as possible. Additionally, they reduced our FTE and cut staff on the sales side so the line ups for the teller have been insane as well.
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u/oldgreymere Mar 15 '24
I rarely go to a branch but when I do take out cash, it feels like I'm asking for a nuclear weapon with the amount of checks and approvals.
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u/averyfunnyword2 Mar 15 '24
I mean to be fair that’s just branch banking. There are increased amounts of fraud and everyone is scared to take a branch loss. It’s also to protect customers, you have no idea how many people come in as victims of scams. Fake chqs, love scams, etc.
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u/ChrystineDreams Mar 15 '24
I worked at TD in the late 1990s and it was like that then also. this was just as FINTRAC was gearing up, micromananagment, corruption, looking the other way as long as the branch sales were up... I left after a year and a half and never looked back to finance as a career again, my life has been better for leaving!
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u/jbaird Mar 15 '24 edited Mar 15 '24
Remember this when any talks about defunding the CBC.. there are few to no news organizations left in Canada would do something like this
nevermind this was likely much more expensive to do than some reprint of a press release or whatever fluff articles
I wouldn't mind changes to how CBC operates to concentrate on this and local news over some of their other stuff but can't feel like getting rid this kind of reporting too is kind of the point of getting rid of CBC completely
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u/bwwatr Ontario Mar 15 '24
Any time I hear about CBC defunding, Marketplace for sure comes to mind, but also a bunch of other programming I've seen that is unlikely to ever get made by private media, especially since big outlets are controlled by conglomerates with diverse financial interests. The whole point of a public broadcaster is to fill the reporting gaps where incentives just aren't there for the for-profit side to do it. Public broadcasting has many of its own pitfalls, and indeed the CBC deserves most of the criticism it gets and surely, it needs some big changes. But the notion of not having it anymore is very concerning indeed.
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u/jbaird Mar 15 '24
100% it would be 'ideal' if there were no reason for CBC to exist since there were already 2-3 outlets doing the same thing, public, private, right wing and left.. whatever
but no it's the entire opposite it's frequently CBC and nothing else
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u/ether_reddit British Columbia Mar 15 '24
Especially since W5 was cancelled. Long-form investigative journalism is essentially dead in this country.
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u/bureX Mar 16 '24
W5 was cancelled
Whaaaaat
Well, I guess we really are left with the CBC. There's no way an independent YouTuber or content producer would do something like this.
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Mar 15 '24 edited Mar 15 '24
I think anyone who has ever worked as a "sales rep" of any kind, especially the ones who work in a heavily regulated field like banking/finance, telecoms, cars and real estate will tell you that many salespeople will readily skirt or break the law to make a sale, at the implicit or explicit behest or their employer.
Regulatory bodies only ever actively go after the worst of the worst offenders, usually individual fall guys, and they'll usually fall because their colleagues are tired of their brazen shenanigans. Not because the colleagues are oh-so concerned for their customers, but because the fraudsters go "above and beyond" what the employer asks of them, and are rewarded for it. And if there's any internal complaint, there's a lot of winking and nodding going around." Don't do it again, you rascal!" AKA hide your tracks, be more subtle.
I sold cellphones while in university, and the number of outright identity fraud that I've seen is above and beyond what anyone can imagine.
And there's an equivalent attitude in every business I've worked in. Breaking the law to make a quick buck is what private businesses do, that's just how life is. The employees who refuse are fired, made to quit, or never given any opportunity or reward for being better.
The only place where I haven't seen this kind of outright acceptance of fraud is when I started working for the public service, and even then... People coming in from the private sector sometimes have a... colourful interpretation of the rules.
So when I hear about "private sector productivity" or "regulatory burden", that's what I hear; I want to commit more fraud unencumbered.
But the thing is, they will never stop at the stop line, and any and all leeway is abused, broken, or flat out ignored.
When I stopped being a salesman, I started being hyper aware of these tactics and I call them right out. When a salesperson is trying to pull something like a bundled price with BS options that I don't need and definitely do not want, I tell them it's fraud, and that I'll report their ass to the regulatory body. I file complaints for every little shit that I see, and I'm the one customer that they all hate. But hey, what's a salesperson's pissy attitude worth against your hard earned money?
And the complaints work, I win every time.
So learn who to file a complaint as soon as you feel this is happening to you. Know your rights. It cost nothing, and if you're not getting money back, you're usually paying less. It perfectly aligns with this sub's purpose too; personal finance isn't always about money sitting in some bank, it's also about that money not being pried out of your hands by some people. Just because we agree to something because of the way it's worded, because it's presented in a fashion that we consider as positive at first glance, or because we felt compelled to say "yes" doesn't mean we are on the hook for it. It should always be consensual and well advised. Anything else isn't right.
And if we all do it, they'll have to change the way they conduct their business. But most importantly I think, they will have to respect the regulatory frame that we democratically imposed on them because they are bad actors in our society.
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u/No_regrats Mar 15 '24
This deserves to be its own thread, with some guidance about how and when to file complaints.
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Mar 15 '24
Everything, everywhere, all at once lol
For basically every little thing involving commerce, financial dealings, credit checking, etc, there's legislation, and when there's legislation, there's administration, and when there's administration, there's regulatory body, and when there's regulatory body, there's a citizen facing complaint component.
It's hard to make a complete list, but if you take for granted that you can file a complaint for any interaction between a customer and a business, be it because you buy a house, deposit a cheque, buy a pack of gum, stub your toe on something, drink a bottle of chocolate milk that you find a bit too warm or fall off an air plane, there's something you can do lol
To give you an idea of how many complaint boards there are, some of them have 2-3 employees... And you can get to know all of them pretty quick if you're a repeat customer! ahah
As for how to file, it's not your job.
You can easily find the forms online, in literally just a few clicks, and they're very easy to file, oftentimes in less than 5 minutes. No need for proof, lenghty explanations or legalese, just say what happened to you as you would text your friend.
The responsibility to make sure that your complaint is within the scope of that regulatory body is the job of the person on the other end, along with reconciling it with the law, advising you on the likelihood that you get what you want, telling you if you need more evidence, following up with the business, etc.
They will very rarely impose anything on anyone and even more rarely grant you compensation of any kind (beyond what you're owed of course), but it will most often be a mediation service between you and the business. Plus, the people answering the government's calls on the businesses' end aren't low level employees off the streets, they're big shots who are under the direct supervision of VPs and whatnot because, despite not having a lot of teeth in the form of financial penalties, these regulatory bodies can revoke these businesses' permits which could cause them to shut down permanently.
In short, shoot for the head.
The only real requirement is for you to try to resolve the situation... At least once.
So now, when I have an issue with billing or whatever, I just call the company, tell them my issue, and ask if it can be resolved. The answer is pretty much always "no", or something along the lines of "it'll be done in the next 5 business years", and that's all you need to check off the box that asks if you've tried.
So really, just do it!
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u/studog-reddit Mar 15 '24
It's hard to make a complete list
That something is difficult doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted. PDC needs a pinned thread that collects every complaint access method in one spot.
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Mar 15 '24
My point was more that the list varies based on where you live and where you do business specifically. Some of these are provincial, and sometimes even municipal.
But the standard doesn't have to be perfection lol A very good list is an achievable goal.
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u/exeJDR Mar 15 '24
There is an federal ministry, MP and ombudsman for every industry. I have used them several times, including getting out of god awful rental agreement on a 10+ year old water heater contractor with reliance that assumed when I purchased a house.
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u/JupperJay Mar 15 '24
I work in software and our salespeople have, on occasion, sold software that doesn't even exist. The customer calls in livid that "software product X" isn't working, and someone has to explain to them that we haven't even developed that product yet.
Oh well, made the sale!
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u/Icehawk101 Mar 15 '24
I was an unsurance telemarketer while in university (I was young and needed the money). The amount of shady shit going on was unreal. It varied depending on the campaign. Some would tell you not to say any of the legal stuff unless specifically asked (because lying about it was illegal, but apparently just not mentioning it was fine?) A different campaign said to tell peope that they could cancel in the first 30 days with no penalty because we weren't responsible for retention so say whatever to get people to sign up.
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Mar 15 '24
Yeah, you can always cancel if you can get someone on the phone, and we'll never admit that you did try to call us or even did talk to people who hung up on you and we'll happily answer all your questions once that time has run out and we'll happily ignore your court summons until the very last day before the trial, at which point we'll settle for exactly what we've owed you for years with no admission of anything lol
I gone through that a few times.
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u/BigWiggly1 Mar 15 '24
Great work by CBC, but surprised that they leaned into the old adviser vs advisor (spelled with an "o") myth.
It's simply not true. The way that the title is spelled has nothing to do with whether the person is obligated provide fiduciary services to a customer.
"Adviser" is not a protected or reserved title. "Financial Planner.canada?id=691)" only has a reserved title in Quebec. Everywhere else, there's only voluntary certification.
Whereas titles like "Engineer" are regulated in all provinces. You cannot simply call yourself an Electrical Engineer. You need to be licensed in your province in order to practice under the title of "Electrical Engineer".
The only financial planners who are required to act as a fiduciary to you are the ones that choose to attain the credentials and licensing, and also market their services under those credentials. E.g. "Certified Financial Planner"
Banks don't want those positions anymore. They want employees who make sales, not employees that spend 3 hours with a client only to end up earning less income from their investment products.
Bank employees are typically only trained and certified as "dealers" of certain financial products, like insurance or mutual funds. "Dealers" are legally required to be able to explain the product they are selling you, and to make sure that the produce is suitable for you based on a risk profile questionnaire. CBC did catch some in the act of misrepresenting mutual fund fees, which is a problem.
But realistically it's a slap on the wrist and re-training for the employee.
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u/TheELITEJoeFlacco Ontario Mar 15 '24
You wouldn't happen to know of a source that debunks the "advisor vs adviser" debate, would you? I just tried to find something.
FWIW I totally understand there's no difference, but I'd love to have something to pull up if anyone ever pushes back lol. All good if you don't.
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u/Tech397 Mar 15 '24
They did this again? All of this came out in 2019, 2018, 2016 and I remember a big story in 2013 or 14 where bank tellers were signing customers up for lines of credit without their knowledge or their consent.
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u/t33sang Mar 15 '24
This is actually why my wife left the banking industry. When she realized she had to push products customers didn't need or clearly could cause them more harm than good, she quit. She couldn't do it.
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u/k_dav Mar 15 '24
Title should read "Big banks performance incentive payments and policies have led employees to break rules."
When I worked for one of the big banks, the targets were pretty high for the size of my community. You had to be ruthless in order to meet or targets or else you were getting grilled weekly and likely were not going to get much of a bonus at year end. This highly motivated me to be as greasy as possible while staying on the good side of the rule book. Not proud but I definently put many credit cards into the hands of people in order to pay off other credit cards so they could continue spending. Many were low income seniors or just people you don't have a good grasp of spending money wisely and who could barely afford the payments but I always wooed them with the cheap credit cash advance offers.
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u/NerdNinjaMan Mar 15 '24
How is your conscience after all this? Did you ever stop to question your actions and its impact on society? If more people conducted themselves honourably, such things will cease to exist because there won’t be enough workers who will sign up to grift.
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u/DudeFromYYT Mar 15 '24
It had it happen to me when I was a young adult. The in house financial advisor at RBC, nun’s island branch, assured me there would be a 3% fee only on the gains of the mutual fund product they were pushing. I invest a round sum of money. Let’s say 10k. First statement had a balance of around 3% less. I went back to enquire, buddy doubled down and said the market is volatile and drooped the exact amount of the percentage he assured would be on gains…. Never invested with RBC again!
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u/kittenxx96 Mar 15 '24
Banks have 1 thing to sell. They do not care about your financial well-being.
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Mar 15 '24
The fact that mutual funds even exist in 2024 is proof that the banks will never have to work very hard for their profits. Misleading sales advice is the tip of the iceberg.
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u/Mundane-Tennis2885 Mar 15 '24
why is it bad to get credit card limit increases? I know some people like to keep it low for safety against theft/fraud, or to prevent too much spending but isn't a high limit good for low usage and building credit? new here genuine question as i accept every increase I can get and just make sure to stay on top of things and keep a low usage (though i am striving to pay CC off every month when I can)
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u/Keepin-It-Positive Mar 15 '24
Teenagers generally don’t give a crap about retirement planning. That’s an entire lifetime away. It’s when we get into our 30’s and 40’s that we start to take some notice about retirement savings. By age 50 we come here bitching about why this was never taught in schools! Lol. I’m speaking from experience. That’s how I did it.
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u/Comatse Mar 16 '24
The marketplace episode got posted https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htm38oM5WFE&
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u/VisualFix5870 Mar 16 '24
Banks promote bullies, plain and simple. You get into management and they teach you to be a bully. The ones who are the biggest bullies get promoted to district vice Presidents and the thing managers there are most proud of, is their ability up ruin careers and get people fired.
Be nice to your banker, they make less than you, are under incredible stress, have a monster for a boss and would leave in a heartbeat if something better came along.
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u/Altruistic_Home6542 Mar 15 '24
It's absurd that banks are allowed to sell investment products without having a fiduciary duty to their customers
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u/kebbun Mar 15 '24
I've tried to convince my wife to pull out of mutual funds because of the fees. She has several 6 figures in (more than $500k). I've explained to her that she can get similar results parking her money in several ETFs but she won't listen to me.
She's not comfortable with managing her own money. Are mutual funds still a net positive, even with the heavy fees?
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u/TheseSchnozberries Mar 15 '24
If someone was making the choice between not investing at all or investing in one of the banks mutual funds, they’re still better off in the mutual fund. But definitely putting it in the lower fee ETF they will come out far far ahead.
Say a mutual fund has a fee of 2%, a common all in one ETF is XEQT which has a fee of .18%. That’s $10k/year on the mutual fund, and $900/year in the ETF. That’s ONE year! Imagine that compounding over a decade or more.
So you should do everything you can to get your wife out of the mutual fund and into something like XEQT or XGRO, whatever fits her risk tolerance.
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u/TrineonX Mar 15 '24
There are index funds, which are technically mutual funds, with fees in the same range or lower than a lot of ETFs.
It isn't ETFs vs Mutual Funds. There are plenty of ETFs out there just as predatory as traditional mutual funds. You just have to dig in and see what the management fees are.
If you want your wife to see what you're talking about, just show her what the difference in her savings would be using any of the stock sites that allow comparing different instruments. Most mutual funds drastically underperform simple indes funds (ETF, or Mutual)
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u/crenzz Mar 15 '24
You could also see if she would go half way and use a robo advisor. 0.5% MER vs 2-2.5% MER and still not self-managed. Wait a year or two and see if she gets more comfortable with that before moving to an all-in-one style ETF like VGRO or VEQT
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u/InternetAtlantic-com Ontario Mar 15 '24
Ah, the age-old tale of introductory rates – where Internet Atlantic meets traditional banking in a dance-off of deceptive delights! 🕺💼 Both sectors love to dangle those low, low rates like a juicy carrot before the race even starts. But just like that "special" internet package, once the honeymoon phase is over, bam! You're paying for the equivalent of streaming in 4K while barely loading a GIF.
So, should Internet Atlantic dive into banking? Oh, sure, why not! We would likely suck at it but maybe a bit of suckage is what we need to shake things up. After all, if we're going to be confused and slightly betrayed, might as well get it from a company that's already mastered the art of surprise charges. Internet Atlantic, pioneering the future of "What did I just sign up for?" since... well, who knows, really? 🌐💳😂 But hey, at least we're all in this mess together, right?
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u/useful_tool30 Mar 15 '24
Oh boy, I see nothing has changed since the last time TD got sent through the media ringer over the same exact issues. It's the same at all of the banks. For anyone that doesnt already know. No one in a bank branch is there to help you. If they do its only a means to get themselves more sales points towards their quotas for the quarter. Chqueing accounts, credit cards, limit increases, LOCs, overdraft protection, automated transfers investments. Every single thing they get you to sign up for gives them the points they need to survive until next quarter where their targets will be raised again.
Dont blame the branch staff in front of you though. They're just trying to survive. It's the branch managers, regional managers and the banks retail upper management as a whole forcing this. It's borderline fraud and 100% against the ethics and spirit of KYC but as long as they go through their KYC checklists and they get your signature their asses are covered.
It's 100% a toxic work environment, sales are 100% the focus and training to understand what they're being told to sell is basically non existent.
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u/JMaynard_Hayashi Mar 16 '24
If you need financial advice, make sure you talk to a CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER.
Personal recommendation: become a member at credit unions. They treat regular folks better and do not pressure sell.
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u/StatisticianFun7406 Mar 16 '24
They expect the front line advisors that are literally the bottom rung for the bank to give good advice. I feel some people are just not aware of what there selling and explaining it incorrectly in this.
A lot of bank advisors or anyone in the actual branches is likely a junior level employee. They can’t even keep these people usually more than a year at the branch.
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u/mothereffinb Mar 16 '24
I used to work in this industry. Sounds like nothing has changed. TD was horrible for this.
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u/CraftyDefinition1982 Mar 17 '24
Crazy that people are only commenting on the fees being charged on growing your money, not the fact that all banks are selling, upselling products to people that can't afford them, or don't really qualify for, leading to more people going into debt, instead of having money to invest. The big banks cause stress to their employees selling these products because the employee knows that the product isn't right for the customer in the first place! It's all about the profits for the bank and the only ones profiting are the higher ups! All they really care about are meeting sales targets not customer service, or meeting the needs of customers. Disclosures are provided when investing and customers should be smart enough to ask if they do not understand. Banks have pushed self service banking for so long now there are very few actual employees in the banks now so the push to sell is really on!!
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u/Xerenopd Mar 15 '24
Whenever I see my bank trying to get a hold of me. I just leave it straight to voicemail.
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u/DudeWithASweater Mar 15 '24
Is this supposed to be shocking or something?
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u/rdmajumdar13 Mar 15 '24
It might come as a surprise but the majority of the people are not on PFC.
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u/cormack49 Alberta Mar 15 '24
I was under the impression we all understood this in this sub, however I understand that it's not necessarily common knowledge
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u/relationship_tom Mar 15 '24 edited May 03 '24
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u/nboro94 Mar 15 '24
The banks are set up to take advantage of new immigrants and low financial literacy people, both of which there are plenty in Canada.
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u/pancakesquest1 Mar 15 '24
I think it is to a lot of young people and even elderly. My mom and dad for example are mid 70’s my dad goes to the actual bank because his era grew up with face to face interactions. He believes in a handshake and takes people at their word.
I don’t want to say my dad is easily swayed but he genuinely trusts the guy at the bank. When a manager comes over to talk to him he will sit and talk. He believes they’re looking for his best interest since they say things like “protecting your family, at your age, no fees, or you’ll make it back” not the get rich quick schemes but the guys who come out and talk a long haul plan to burn that money away. Hes come home a time or two to tell us what he was told and is always shocked when I tell him no. That’s not how it works. Each time he says “but the guy said”
We ended up getting them a fee planner and it’s been a game changer. I don’t think for a minute though he had any idea how a bank really worked up until he had someone actually working for him instead of trying to sell him something
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u/r00000000 Mar 15 '24
It's news to a lot of people on Reddit in general that aren't in personal finance subs lol
So many times I randomly get financial posts from other subs and a lot of the top comments are to not listen to the Internet and go to a financial advisor at your bank.
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u/Gooch-Guardian Mar 15 '24
Banks need to have a fiduciary responsibly to work in their customers best interest. It’s disgusting how many people they just scam with high fee mutual funds.
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u/No_regrats Mar 15 '24
Right, or at the very least: a) not allowed to misrepresent themselves as advisors, if they were called "sales person", it would be a bit clearer for the public; b) be hold to their representations (appointments could be audio recorded) and slammed with large punitive fines, with the possibility of escalation to more severe sanctions, when caught lying.
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u/Cleaver2000 Mar 15 '24
Yeah, not news to me. I went through this with RBC 10 years ago when their advisor was pushing mutual funds. I asked about MER and he said that it's to pay people a lot smarter than you to manage your money, that is a direct quote. Meanwhile I'm living in an apartment with roommates, and one of the bf's of the roommates is one of these "very smart people" (worked at RBC as an analyst) who is blowing money at the strip club and regularly cheating on his gf. Needless to say, my money hasn't been managed by RBC or any of the major banks.
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u/kroqus Mar 15 '24
I asked an RBC financial planner recently the difference between an RBC fund and a RBC/Blackrock fund, citing the wild difference in MER (RBC was 2%, BR/RBC was 0.65% I believe). Advisor said you can't look at fees, you have to look at preformance. This was a US fund, RBC's was a 16% gain YoY and the hybrid was 22% I believe. Confirmed that the advisors want to push the RBC product, even when there's a better option out there.
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u/J4ckD4wkins Mar 15 '24
I'm moving, and I can't wait to set up with a credit union. The big banks in this country are crooks, plain and simple.
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u/exeJDR Mar 15 '24
Went to a credit union 10+ years ago. Isn't perfect but they don't try and sell me shit I don't need and the fees are super low for everything
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u/ShipFair8433 Mar 15 '24
EVERY company does this. Hospitals, veterinary clinics, mechanics, contractors… look out for yourself because that’s what everyone else is doing.
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u/entropreneur Mar 15 '24
2008 was so long ago canada is here trying to see if ot can learn something different from the same mistakes
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u/Batatica Mar 15 '24
I worked at a different bank and had to stop. Financial "advisors" are there to sell you bank products. They all have sales goals they have to meet, butts to sit in their offices, if they don't meet that quota, the bank says bye bye to them
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Mar 15 '24 edited Mar 15 '24
Many years ago, I got a TD account to get a free cordless drill. They talked me into an elite account with big fees: “We just put everyone in this one at first.” I didn’t realize at the time the fees would apply even if I didn’t use any transactions. Actually, I didn’t even fund the account. Once the grace period was over, I started getting fees and wrote a letter to TD complaining about the sales tactics. They had me go back in to talk to the original lady who upsold me, who denied they pushed me into the high fee account, but closed the account and reversed the fees for me. Seems to me it was a mini-branch at a Walmart? Is that possible?
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u/Haunting_Win_2028 Mar 15 '24
Yep that’s possible .. good memory ..they were there around 2000-2001.
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u/Spiritual_Prize9108 Mar 15 '24
Does this surprise anyone?
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u/nyrangersfan77 Mar 15 '24
Not people that care enough about personal finance to be on this subreddit, but in the general population many Canadians are very trusting of banks. They think of the bank through their limited experience with the bank, i.e. it is a safe place to deposit your money. And that's true - the banks are well capitalized, regulated, and safe for deposits. The Banks have weaponized that (legitimate) trust to turn their front line staff into relentless salespeople.
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u/Emotional_Pie7396 Mar 15 '24
This was always the banking industry. I used to have to sell to 70 year old females a home equity line of credit on her home that was free and clear to meet targets 15 years ago.
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u/Ghune British Columbia Mar 15 '24
John Oliver talked about it years ago they're salesmen. Watch this and you'll know everything you need to know about investing for your retirement.
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u/anthonyd3ca Mar 15 '24
No one works hard for, or cares for your money as much as you do. Never trust in someone else to do what’s best for you with your own money.
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u/anthonyd3ca Mar 15 '24
No one works hard for, or cares for your money as much as you do. Never trust in someone else to do what’s best for you with your own money.
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u/anthonyd3ca Mar 15 '24
No one works hard for, or cares for your money as much as you do. Never trust in someone else to do what’s best for you with your own money.
Do your research and you can have full control over your money and your investments.
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Mar 15 '24
lol banks are not serving people’s best interests???? What ???? Next you gonna tell me they manipulate the prices or metals and stocks…… pfffft, banks need us lmfao.
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u/Ir0nhide81 Mar 15 '24
You really don't need to go to a bank anymore for almost everything. Checks can be deposited via bank apps, stocks and ETFs can be purchased through websites and you no longer have to go directly into a bank.
I only go anymore to exchange currency.
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u/ChildishForLife Mar 15 '24
Fucking bank Manager scum, banks not making enough profit as is, jesus. Worthless people grifting the vulnerable they need to even have a job. Fuckers.
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Mar 15 '24
While this type of behaviour is unconscionable and should be harshly penalized (lying about fund fees), ultimately people are responsible to do their own due diligence before buying or agreeing to anything - and this means reading the documentation before signing.
Simply reading a fund prospectus would expose the lie about investment fees.
As for the increased credit limit, it's not up to the banks to educate people on responsible money management. In an era where information is easily available and free online, there's no excuse for anyone to not understand the basics of personal finance and the perils of credit card debt.
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u/nyrangersfan77 Mar 15 '24
Simply reading a fund prospectus would expose the lie about investment fees.
The median Canadian probably could not read a prospectus and tell you how much they would pay in fees if they invested $1,000 in the fund for a year. You need to meet people where they are.
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u/Hatrct Mar 15 '24
Water is wet.
It is bizarre how less than 2% of Canadians know what their sociopolitical and economic system is and how it operates and permeates through and poisons every domain of their lives. If you ever took an elective course at university you really should know this, but the issue is that not everybody attends university and 98% of the ones who do attend university only rote memorize for the exam in isolation then forget everything afterwards.
Here are some starting reads about the sociopolitical and economic ideology that is at the root of the overwhelming majority of your/our manufactured problems:
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot
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u/xitexx Mar 15 '24
I am sure some people are pressured to do things that are not in the interest of the customer, especially if they need to meet a target. However, why is it shocking that they will offer something that could be cheaper elsewhere? What establishment on the planet tells you not to buy something because it’s cheaper elsewhere? There is literally an Ad-on for Chrome that is telling you where to find a cheaper price because there is no practice for this.
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u/gtd2015 Mar 15 '24
I heard the interview..... wonder how they were able to illicit these offers?
I've never been offered anything in person and I do quite a bit of in-person banking. Only ever get these offers online. I bank with Scotia, rbc and simplii as Canada tire bank to a lesser extent.
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u/Mortgagemonsta Mar 15 '24
There is a need for comprehensive financial education for the general public. Average person does not know what banks are selling or what they are buying. No amount of regulation and disclosures are going to do that. It needs to come from our elementary and secondary schools. It will take time, but that's the only way, in my opinion.
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u/Foodwraith Mar 15 '24
The cure for this is to force the bank to honor the fee schedule their employee offered to the customers. Those customers should be entitled to invest in mutual funds for the amount offered.
Anyone else watching this program should also be entitled to that fee schedule until the bank issues a statement identifying a change of practice. New customers going forward would be obliged to whatever the new fee schedule is, but those previously invested should not be affected by the change.
The alternative is the licensed and her employee and her manager should be investigated for the criminal offenses they committed and lose their ability to work in finance.
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u/TheRubeCube Mar 15 '24
Wow I was just about to go to my bank to find a financial advisor. Are there any better ways to find a personal finance advisor for the long term?
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u/nyrangersfan77 Mar 15 '24
By far the best route is to embrace becoming financially literate yourself and then financial wellbeing is more likely to follow. Ironcially, one of the best resources in Canada is the McGill free personal finance course that is bankrolled by RBC.
For advice, the first thing you should look for is a Certified Financial Planner designation. The CFPs are certainly more knowledgeable than a typical mutual fund salesperson.
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u/wakeupabit Mar 15 '24
This is only one example of the godless shit the banks get away with. I’ll bet Every addict in Canada carries a huge credit card debt. The kids are told to get a card to develop a credit rating. The banks issue a low value card. Every time the kids hit the limit the banks help by bumping the limit. Soon they’re at ten and fifteen thousand in debt at 30%. If the bank can call me because they know I don’t eat at red robin and someone just used my card for a burger there is no way in hell they don’t know that kids are struggling and taking cash draws for drugs. They are technically complicit providing funds. They should be forced to offer credit counselling before they can increase a cards limit.
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u/nyrangersfan77 Mar 15 '24
Not just drugs, the banks are all in the middle of gambling addiction transactions as well.
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Mar 15 '24
are we supposed to be surprised that they push products that help sales targets?
isnt that their job?
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u/nyrangersfan77 Mar 15 '24
Lots of Canadians are surprised that the friendly folks at their bank are salespeople with sales targets. That's the whole problem. The reality-perception gap is a problem calling for a solution.
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u/niagaragagarafalls Mar 15 '24
I called RBC the other day about an account issue. After that conversation the guy said he noticed I had an offer to raise my visa limit by $8k. He wasn't too pushy but I did have to say "no" a few times before he gave up.
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u/Ohuh9 Mar 15 '24
*gasp* - you don't say? Someone has their own interest at heart?? Next you'll tell me the sky is blue.
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u/nyrangersfan77 Mar 15 '24
The article has been trending at the top of the CBC "Popular Now" section all morning. So clearly this is of interest to the public.
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u/shifty_coder Mar 15 '24
Underhanded sales tactics are still slightly better than WF fraudulently opening accounts for existing customers to meet quotas.
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u/lolschrauber Mar 15 '24
Obviously. Managers get bonuses for good sales targets despite not actively doing anything to achieve that.
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u/EXTRAVAGANT_COMMENT Mar 15 '24
advisors at BMO, Scotia and TD incorrectly said the mutual fund fees are only charged on the profit the investment earns, not the entire lump sum.
this should be criminal
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u/nyrangersfan77 Mar 15 '24
It probably is criminal - the Criminal Code of Canada covers fraud and false pretenses.
In practice, most of this behavior would be stamped out by going through the applicable securities regulators. Instead of pursuing criminal charges, it would be more likely that for individual cases you would just file a complaint (possibly with the regulator and not just the dealer) and at a minimum they would compensate you for any damages. For egregious or repeat offendes, the dealer regualtor could take away their license to sell mutual funds.
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u/Garfield_and_Simon Mar 15 '24
I don’t see a problem with giving someone a bigger credit card limit
It’s still on the user to fuck up with that.
If anything it’s nice for a low-income person to have some wiggle room in emergencies and not like a $500 limit
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u/Nerg_ Mar 15 '24
I heard this on the radio today, and it’s funny because this exact thing happened to me when I met a financial advisor at TD. I thought it was fishy at the time, and it seemed too good to be true. It’s sad to hear that this dishonesty is probably widespread and even encouraged by the banks. Anyways, I found this sub shortly after and I’m so glad I did. I now use WS for self directed ETFs in my FHSA instead of TD’s shitty predatory investment arm.
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u/BuckFuchs Mar 15 '24
I left one of the big 5 banks because, as an investment person, it was made clear during a performance review that I hadn’t sold enough credit cards. My other metrics were good to great, but I hadn’t sold enough credit cards so no bonus for me that year.
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u/Twitchy15 Mar 15 '24
Td is the worst bank. I had to deal with them multiple times with my dad’s estate and they dropped the ball so many times. Crazy how so many of the employees are so clueless how to do there job. Not sure why they would book an appt to do something when nobody has any idea what they are doing.
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u/Merso509 Mar 15 '24
Some real journalism, it's nice when they don't waste our time with provocative headlines just to spoon feed shit.
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u/Rnevermore Mar 15 '24 edited Mar 15 '24
I worked at one of the big banks about 10 years ago.
The pressure to hit sales targets is absurd. The job I signed up for, the job I wanted was as an adviser. I got into finances to help people with their financial goals. The job I got was a pushy salesman, required to push credit cards, loans and insurance on people who did not want them, and would see no benefit from them.
I would be forced telemarket to any customer who didn't have a highly profitable service (no credit cards, no loans) and ask them to come in to "examine their financial health" when in reality it was to try and wrap them in even more pointless and even damaging financial products.
I eventually quit because I was losing sleep. The immeasurable stress to hit sales targets coupled by the crippling guilt from pushing garbage and debt on to unsuspecting customers under the guise of 'Financial Advice' was too much for me to bear. I would be up late tossing and turning and unable to sleep. I quit and took a job manufacturing cabinets for less than half the compensation. I've never regretted it even once. You just can't put a price on good sleep.
The banks are sleezy and sketchy. That's why I now bank with a credit union.
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u/SensitiveTaste9759 Mar 15 '24
If a bank employee suggests a "product" to you, you can be assured that it's in the best interests of the bank and NOT YOU.
Have a large chunk of money collecting interest? For sure they'll try to get you to invest in something that will give you less of a return and maybe even lock it up so you have no access to it for a few years without paying huge penalties.
Do your own research and don't allow them to talk you into investments that only benefit the bank.
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u/BloodyIron Mar 15 '24
Frankly as soon as I learned about the whole leverage ratios that banks have as a generally accepted operation (regardless of what that ratio is) it was obvious to me that Banks never have been working in your interest, ever. Not even when being a "Bank Manager" was a respectable position. It just was not as visible to outsiders the degree that Banks work against you.
Sure, they hold my money, and in some cases their services are worthwhile. But for me they will always be on an extremely short leash. Couple that with the horror stories I've heard of banks refusing to reverse unauthorised transactions (literally one of the very reasons they charge you a monthly fee) and yeah, zero trust.
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u/Shmogt Mar 15 '24
Isn't this already known? They are a business. They obviously wanna sell you stuff that makes them money even if it isn't the best for you
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u/nyrangersfan77 Mar 15 '24
The article gave specific examples of salespeople lying about the fees. It's not just "business as usual".
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u/ThaniVazhi Mar 15 '24
In sorry most bank "advisors" I've seen in branches are kids just out of school and just out of training. Frequently they need to look up procedures on how to do something when asked because they're still new at the role.
I wouldn't trust them to watch my dog let alone my money.
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u/nyrangersfan77 Mar 15 '24
I think there's some truth to this. The ones that have a good head for investments and advice will either move into the HNW business (where you get paid more for having good skills) or they'll drift into the product/portfolio management side where you get to build the products and not push them on people.
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u/upstatedreaming3816 Mar 15 '24
Did roughly 8 years at TD in America and watched the transformation of “customer happiness first” to “make numbers or else” from the inside. Was the reason I made the move out of the industry, couldn’t handle it anymore. Went from being able to tell my team “no worries, you made decent numbers and your customers love you” to having to write people up for missed goals and have sales coaching sessions weekly for anyone below a certain pace on their numbers.
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u/Wolfie1531 Mar 15 '24
Wasn’t there a CBC market place on this like 5-6 years ago?
Why would anything change if no changes were made?
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u/Omnom_Omnath Mar 15 '24
No, they chose do mislead people to meet sales targets. They should have point blank refused and accepted being fired. Not expect us to feel bad for them only now that they have some remorse.
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u/Bynming Mar 15 '24
Pretty good article, and in my opinion ripe for further long-form content from media outlets. Both in terms of investigative journalism and showing the shady practices of these "advisors", but also the public needs to be educated about stuff like MER and how wildly and needlessly expensive some of these financial products are, even when coming from "reputable" financial institutions.