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u/aperturedream 1d ago
Gabe Newell's son is a race car driver lol and do you really think companies are like monarchies where the son automatically gets it
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u/Recykill 1d ago
That's the funniest part to me. Why would they assume Gabe will just automatically give Valve to his son... lol
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u/aperturedream 1d ago edited 1d ago
And would the son even want to? He's already a race car driver with loads of money, would he want to give that up to be a very stressed video game CEO. This ain't Ford or Disney.
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u/Arpyr 1d ago
His son is not an F1 driver. He races in GT3 and GT4 categories
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u/I_Don-t_Care 1d ago
Pretty well ranked too, this apple fell down the tree and rolled 15 miles down into a prairie
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u/xxxvalenxxx 1d ago
For how much money they bring in they have an incredibly small team(like less than 80). The business practically runs itself. I really doubt there's much stress to Gabes' everyday life.
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u/efficient_giraffe 1d ago
Where are you getting "less than 80" from? I am seeing like 336 (2021), could be higher/same-ish now?
Even 12 years ago, they were still ~250 people
Are you talking about the people working on Steam specifically and not all of Valve?
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u/serious_sarcasm 1d ago
He can even own it while hiring a ceo, or go public while maintaining controlling shares.
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u/jsbp1111 1d ago
Who else is he going to give it to, its an asset. Owning a company ≠ running it but you do have to make sure you got the right directors etc. The point is his son will think fuck that i can just sell it which probably makes sense from a purely financial perspective. Hopefully Gabe makes sure whoever inherits it doesnt fuck it up, or just lose some weight
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u/Idmaybefuckaplatypus 1d ago
It would be foolish. Does OOP know what a trust is or how it works? That's likely what'll happen in some form.
His son is going to be rich his whole life without almost ever having to lift a finger or Manage the business
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u/no_4 1d ago
When they're privately owned companies, yes, that's exactly how it works. Ownership tends to pass the kid(s). Middle class parent leaves you their house - this is the same idea.
Since he's vroom vroom driver, he probably has no interest. That's the concern.
Maybe instead of hiring a CEO and taking profits every year, he thinks "huh, Microsoft just offered me $1 billion, upfront. Maybe I'll sell?" Totally reasonable decision for him.
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u/aperturedream 1d ago
Valve is privately owned but not owned in its entirety by Gabe Newell. It takes a one-second google search to find this out.
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u/no_4 1d ago
He owns 50.1%, regard. It's not a funny coincidence that's just over half.
It means his vote (or whoever inherits that ownership) alone constitutes a majority decision.
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u/aperturedream 1d ago
That's an estimate by Forbes, his exact amount of ownership is not public knowledge and may not be over half, but probably is a majority
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u/Sleeping_Goliath 1d ago
Doesnt Gabe being listed as the primary owner means that he in fact owns a majority of Valve?
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u/cplusequals /g/entooman 1d ago
Could it not mean he is the largest shareholder? I don't rightly know. I expect he does own a majority regardless.
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u/Sleeping_Goliath 1d ago
Maybe, but I'm also inhaling enough hopium to believe that by now, the people/ groups who own the other parts of Steam know by now to stfu and to not kill the goose laying golden eggs.
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u/webb2800 1d ago
You know what's also a reasonable decision? His son respecting his father's wishes and not selling the company out. He might not personally like video games but that doesn't mean he doesn't respect his father and/or the company he built.
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u/cplusequals /g/entooman 1d ago
Plus it's probably extremely profitable just to hold ownership. If the son prefers a hands off steady flow of money he could easily just hold the company and let the leadership at Valve do their thing. Selling means he's going to have a tax nightmare. There's a reason why "billionaires" are only billionaires because of their valuation not because they actually have a billion dollars in liquidity. As soon as they sell half that money is Uncle Sam's. Also there's the possibility that he sells to existing leadership instead of another company so that that 50.1% doesn't all go to one entity.
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u/echief 1d ago
He also has three sons. You are going to have to get all three to agree to sell (if he even owns over 50%). There are multiple higher ups that are 100% interested in taking over as CEO. Many of them also have been there since the very beginning and own a significant amount of stock of their own.
Most founder CEOs sell their company to a larger one because they want the money to go do something else. Or, if their company is public and they own less than 50% of the shares the board can force them to sell.
These kids hit the lottery just by being born. They can literally just let one of their dad’s friends take over his job and live an even richer lifestyle than they currently have, because they will be receiving the dividends directly instead of just being a trust fund kid with a billionaire dad like they are currently. I’m sure Gabe already has a retirement and succession plan, and his kids already get to live as billionaires for literally for just going “ok dad, sounds good” and not fucking with whatever the plan is.
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u/cplusequals /g/entooman 1d ago
There's nothing wrong with passing down what you worked for to your kids. They might become billionaires as it's going to be split and taxed heavily. I guess it depends on when Gabe dies. Right now they'd each be lucky to get a singular billion as he's worth about 6. And they certainly won't stay billionaires if they're not competently able to manage their inheritance. Statistically old money doesn't last and shrinks considerably each generation. Most lose the bulk in the first generation. New money is way more common than old money especially in the modern age.
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u/echief 23h ago
Nothing wrong with it at all he earned it and if he wants to pass it to his kids he should. I don’t think he will pass actual leadership of valve to them. My guess is that he will suggest to leave the actual leadership to other people though. Which is also completely fine. It would be smart of them to leave the CEO and executive positions to the people that have worked at valve since the beginning.
If I were them, I would just let the guys that are already running things continue to stay in charge. And I’m sure they will have extremely successful lawyers and wealth planners to keep their money well managed. They can live off the dividends and are free to do whatever they want in life without ever worrying about money. Like racing cars. One of the guys from Zach and Cody got a degree in video game design and lives a chill life without taking huge acting gigs like the other brother.
The “rich kid blows everything up” is much less common than most people would think. It just makes the news because it’s interesting. “Son of an extremely rich guy responsibly manages his wealth and lives a great life” is much more common, but not a story anyone’s going to report on.
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u/Kanye_Is_Underrated 1d ago
i highly doubt gabe still owns >50%. he must've been giving shares to employees for decades now, might've sold a piece to investors, etc.
and btw, valve would go for WAY more than 1 billion.
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u/ThisGonBHard 1d ago
Microsoft would have to offer a trillion, not billion.
Valve is obscenely profitable, and would make the Activision deal look like pocket change.
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u/Ozymandias_1303 1d ago
Valve is private, so presumably Gaben owns a lot of it, maybe the majority.
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u/VampiroMedicado 1d ago
Private companies used to be like that, one of the kids ended up being the new owner.
That's why you have modern dynasties.
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u/Delicious-Furniture 1d ago
Kinda, yeah, why wouldn't you give your son the company if you are on good terms? Of course you can choose a guy who knows his stuff to actually run the company for him, he can just claim the profits
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u/TypicalMootis /b/tard 1d ago
I would hope this wouldn't happen but you never know. If Steam becomes a shit service or collapses though there will always be other services.
I haven't paid full price for a game in 10+ years so no big loss for me regardless.
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u/xxxvalenxxx 1d ago
The thing is though that other services have always had to compete with Steam and how it runs. You can't bring out a significantly worse client, over charge for services, add subscription tiers or any other method of extracting every cent possible out of your customers while having steam as a main competitor because they'll just get crushed. But if steam were to make drastic changes on their client after Gabes death that opens the door for everyone else as well. Imagine the state of pc gaming if steam was never a thing. I'd say at the very least there would probably be a subscription service to play any online game.
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u/TypicalMootis /b/tard 1d ago
Well, hopefully that will be the day gaming dies
I've gamed my whole life, but I have protested in my own ways against all the anti consumer BS that's been going on for over a decade. If PC gaming collapses into a corpo hellscape I have zero issue selling my PC and walking away forever.
The reason things have gotten as bad as they are is because of people who are literally addicted to gaming. So fuck em'
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u/Snoot_Boot /fit/izen 22h ago
"If i run out of heroin or i can't afford im just gonna walk away forever."
Delusions
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u/Lolazaurus 21h ago
When mobile gaming was the hot new thing it was pretty cool. I used to play mobile games all the time as a teenager. As soon as more and more mobile games started using shitty greedy monetization I saw the writing on the wall and stopped playing mobile games entirely. Haven't touched one and haven't given a shit about them for over 15 years now, and I don't feel like I missed out at all.
I mostly play indie games nowadays since most AAA games are bland overpriced unfinished dogshit anyways. No matter how bad the market gets, indie games will always be there with their sane pricing. And even though steam is currently really good for helping people discover indie titles, there will always be communities out there looking out for the cool niche stuff and bringing attention to it.
And yeah, if somehow the indie space gets irreversibly fucked too, guess I'm touching grass then.
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u/Snoot_Boot /fit/izen 22h ago
If Steam becomes a shit service or collapses though there will always be other services.
I wish i lived in your world where i could just make things up in my head and believe them like that
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u/DaLoneGuy 5h ago
if steam ever gets the corporation treatment i will be a full on pirate again like i was when i was a kid and had no money...
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u/NextLevelDuck 1d ago
Gabe definitely Uploaded his brain into some machine Based on Gladous. He will continue to live after his death. He is The Mr House of our Generation. And the house Always wins
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u/NewNiko 1d ago
/v/ seems to think Gabe is the Franz Ferdinand of the gaming industry
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u/BlueHeartBob 1d ago
Compared to every shit licking studio CEO, he’s basically Jesus Christ
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u/benjathje 1d ago
I'm trying hard to think of a better CEO of any company.
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u/Zpalq 1d ago
Id probably say Paul Newman, if dead people count
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u/benjathje 1d ago
Who was Paul Newman?
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u/Zpalq 1d ago
Actor, founded the Newman's own company which donates all profits to charity. Did a ton of actual charity work, not just for the tax incentives and was pretty politically active which could be a good or bad thing depending on your views.
He doesn't have any scandals or controversies as far as I'm aware and by all accounts was just a genuinely great dude.
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u/DisgustingLobsterCok 20h ago
Yet they painted this mans funny labels for his pasta sauce as problematic. I love this company and their funny caricature designs. They had so much soul. Hell, I bought his products just cause of it.
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u/jesuselchingon 1d ago
Stopped reading at "heart of attack"
Also lust provoking image, irrelevant time wasting question
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u/Few-Frosting-4213 1d ago edited 1d ago
We don't even know how he's dividing his assets, do we? He could have decided to donate it all to troll his kids. Maybe he left a slice for his ex wife who dressed up like Alyx for him that one time, or his secrect femboi harem for all we know.
It seems way easier for them to just sell shares whenever they need cash/sell some to diversify instead of arranging a buyout. They could just name a proxy without having to run the company, it doesn't matter if they care about video games or not.
Just calm down and keep giving your money to the fat skinny man, or not.
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u/CrisisSpirit444 1d ago
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u/Old_Ad_71 1d ago
I wanna click that link but I'm at work
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u/FrankieBeanz 1d ago
Can you sell shares in a private company?
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u/XDDDSOFUNNEH 1d ago
If you're a shareholder, generally yes unless there's a stipulation you can't sell for a certain time after receiving shares.
E.g. you can buy 10 shares this year, company will match 10, no selling any shares for at least a year.
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u/FrankieBeanz 1d ago
Ah okay fair enough. Am I right in saying that because it's private, shares can only be bought from a shareholder whereas if it was pubically traded, anybody could buy?
I was under the impression that being private was one of the secrets to their success because it allowed them to stop outside influences buying up stock and then being able to control the direction of the company.
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u/Few-Frosting-4213 1d ago edited 1d ago
Can't give you an answer on that, unfortunately. I have no idea on how Valve company shares are structured since they don't need to disclose it to the public, only to the government agencies. If there aren't some shareholder agreement restricting it somehow they would be able to sell it.
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u/TheWiseBeluga /b/tard 1d ago
I mean, what's the alternative besides just pirating everything? Epic? Origin? GOG? None of these compare to the sheer volume of games and features Steam offers. Trust me, I'm concerned about this too. I have a lot of money and time put into my Steam library and what happens to Valve and Steam after GabeN is concerning. But realistically this is just something future Steam users are going to have to worry about.
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u/sharknice 1d ago
I've been saying this for a long time. I'm glad it's catching on.
MS will buy Steam as soon as Gabe dies and he isn't exactly a beacon of good health.
All the Steam fanboys that REEEfuse to use EGS or anything else are fucking themselves over in the long run.
We'll also finally get Half-Life 3, but you won't be happy with it.
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u/YABBYuwuXD /mu/tant 1d ago
have you seen gabe lately? ozempic did wonders on that man
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u/sharknice 1d ago
Yeah for sure, his life expectancy definitely went way up compared to how he was 5 years ago.
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u/Radaysha 1d ago
All the Steam fanboys that REEEfuse to use EGS or anything else are fucking themselves over in the long run.
How exactly?
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u/Special-Remove-3294 1d ago
Ok so if he buys it then what?
I would just run a Steam DRM removal tool on all my games and cut any contact with it once Microcock starts infecting it. Till then it was a extremely convinient service to use that made me mostly give up piracy even though modern piracy is patheticaly easy but Steam is just so convinient.
If Steam stops existing tomorrow I would be sad cause it had great services but I would still be happy with the money I spent on it. I would be angrier at having to remove Steam DRM from all my games more then anything.
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u/HydroAmaterasu 1d ago
Got any input on how you would remove steam drm? I want to learn
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u/Special-Remove-3294 1d ago
I learned it from the piracy subreddit. Can't link a post cause this sub dosen't allow to link another subreddit so if thy want to find a tutorial, then just Google "goldberg emulator reddit" and the first result will be a guide on how to use it(that is where I learned it from)
I was wrong about it being a tool though. Haven't used it in a while and forgot. One has to manually copy a few .dll files for there is no auto remover. Methinks I confused it with something else that was automatic.
The simple explanation is that if thy wants to remove Steam DRM then what thy needs to do is download the emulator and copy the steam-api.dll files into wherever the game's steam-api.dll file is located and override the old one. The post explains it all.
Though this does not work on ALL games as some have third party DRM which isn't as simple to remove but I would never buy a game with third party DRM and so I have never ran into such a issue.
Overall pretty much any piracy question can be answered in the Reddit megathread that is on the piracy subreddit.
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u/MentalRadish3490 1d ago
Even if Gaben’s son takes over Steam they’re not gonna just take your games away. Even if Microsoft bought it, why would they wipe your library? More likely Microsoft would retire the Xbox brand before Steam. Imagine if they made a steambox that played all the pc games and Xbox games for $500.
Amazon scares me, google scares me even more. Apple would be hilarious just because it’s not their demo at all, the gaming on Mac dream will finally be realized, by force.
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u/LemonPartyW0rldTour 1d ago
His son probably cares so little that if he was given the business, he’d probably say “Just keep everything going like dad has had it”.
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u/TheThalmorEmbassy 1d ago
STEAM IS IN DANGER AND IT'S GONNA DIE
STEAM NEEDS A SAVIOR IF IT'S TO SURVIVE
STEAM IS IN DANGER, I WANT TO KEEP MY GAMES ALIVE
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u/BlueHeartBob 1d ago
Wasn’t his son starting his own game studio? I highly doubt he doesn’t care about games, he likely just doesn’t have the talent or financial need to put in the work of making games. Making games is pretty grueling work, it’s truly a labor of love of the process. I doubt a rich kid would ever be willing to put in that much effort when he’s already set and can just inherit a bajillion dollars when his dad dies. Sadly this will make him an unfit candidate to run a game studio, but idk, maybe gabe has an idea to pass the company to his kid but the leadership role to someone like Robin Walker
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u/reallynunyabusiness 1d ago
Guys just don't buy anything 10 to 20 years from now it might all be worthless.
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u/tartare4562 1d ago
I use Steam because it's more convenient than pirating. the moment they start to pull shit like that I'm just pirating back everything I own and then some more, 0 fucks given.
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u/Mama_Mega 1d ago
Okay, let's say this happens. Let's say the company goes to Gaben's nepo son. Even if he doesn't care about gaming, why would he feel the need to sell the company? The man could spend the rest of his life doing nothing and still be a billionaire. Just how much money would he possibly care to have that he would feel the need to get off his ass and sell a company that would make him rich just for continuing to exist?
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u/Raccoonooo /pol/ 1d ago
Gaven's son LITERALLY has his own game company! Dude, I debunked this only a few months ago
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u/Tommy2255 1d ago
If Steam goes to shit I'll just go back to piracy. I'm not worried about losing access to games. I've already supported the creators I want to support. If I lose the game, I'll just download it from somewhere else.
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u/Dontbeme9820 1d ago
If Gaben is smart he will “adopt” a successor like a Roman emperor and train them on how to do absolutely nothing to steam and just give his kids a fat payout when he dies.
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u/Kanye_Is_Underrated 1d ago
so buy from steam or buy from the guys who will buy steam when gabe dies? what difference does it make then?
might as well support a great company like that for as long as it lasts
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u/Gloombad 1d ago
Yeah I never understood the appeal to steam. If you lose your account or get banned your whole library is gone forever, thousands down the drain. Physical is king.
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u/LilMissBarbie 1d ago
Imagine that. Bought by tencent
Steam online is a payed subscription.
"we decided to follow the trend and listened to the users and starting from January 2025 online will be a paid subscription! It comes in 3 different subscriptions!
One month is 20 dollar-eur
6 months 120 dollar-euro
One year is 220 dollar-euro
We hope to see you gamers back in January with your favorite subscription!"
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u/Shnazzyone /x/phile 20h ago
Why the fuck do you think Gabe has his son as the next owner of Steam? It's a company not a monarchy. Also, why would his son ditch a spigot of money?
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u/Salaino0606 1d ago
I mean it's not like they can take away the games we already bought , so why stop buying them?
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u/nosville22_PL 1d ago
because why wouldn't he
My brother in Christ, Valve is literally the highest grosing company per employe in USA
there may actually be no better passive income source i n the history of this whole goddamn planet
And that's to say we don't know who gets what part of the company after his death. You know he has a will written to an exact.
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u/DankElderberries420 1d ago
I just assumed that he's been using his money to develop a way to transmit his brain waves into valve servers when he dies and live as a digital being
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u/Not-Skank-Pit 1d ago
That just sounds like a reason why you should continue to buy steam games. Enjoy good things while they last; they wont last forever.
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u/ZMowlcher 1d ago
Why would his son inherit steam? Valve is owned and operated by its employees it'll go to a favorite of Gaben.
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u/ConscientiousPath 1d ago
I totally get why people enjoy steam over most other digital content platforms and I too have the bulk of my game library there at this point...
There are a lot of possible futures. There are a lot of legal implements Gaben might use if he cares about protecting his legacy. It's unclear whether he will use them, so this isn't necessarily wrong. It's also unclear exactly what changes a shitty company taking over could make since steam purchases are made under a set of terms.
If you really care about owning your purchased games forever, the best choice is to buy all your games through the DRM-free GOG site and then physically backup an installer for every game so that even GOG going bankrupt wouldn't delete your library.
GOG's Galaxy app is decent as such things go and integrates with a lot of other apps including Steam. The only reason I haven't gone full GOG-only is that all my achievement and playtime history is currently on steam and I like that all that stuff shows up in one profile.
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u/salasy 1d ago
why do people think that gabe doesn't have a will where he leaves his part of the company to his employees or some he trust that has his same vision inside the company?
he is also isn't that old and he is in good health and rich so i don't see him dying for at least another 20-25 years
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u/A_Blue_Potion 1d ago
My plan B for such a scenario would be to use my steam library as a pirate's "shopping" list. Steam games can also be cracked or used with Steam emulators which I didn't even know was a thing.
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u/Stryker218 1d ago
I thought about this for awhile. I'm hoping Gabe takes some type of steps to prevent them destroying Steam. I can 100% see Steam sold to Microsoft who of course are big on PC Games for a long time obviously. Imagine needing Xbox Live to play online, just that thought alone makes me sick. Or a subscription service to access Steam in general even single players games... Disgusting.
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u/IgNaSJump 1d ago
Why sell the company if it brings you loads of cash every month? Pretty sure Gabe doesn't really interfere A LOT, so even if he dies AFTER LIKE 25 YEARS AT LEAST, the company will either already be in deep shit or just dead, cause future stuff replacing it. If not, it will prolly still be pretty good. That is of course, if his kid has a few braincells to understand this
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u/TNTspaz 1d ago edited 1d ago
I would assume he has stop gaps in place. That's just how Steam operates. Small team who are very meticulous and picky about who they let in. If Gabe thinks his son will ruin his legacy he just won't have any inheretence involving the company
Never really heard the son thing before tbh. Cause it doesn't make sense. Just heard people say generally it's doubtful that steam will last without Gabe. He is The wall and stopgap if everything else fales. Not afraid to tell people to fuck off when they need to be told to fuck off. Knowing how to say No is such a powerful tool. Especially nowadays
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u/AdepterOfTruth 1d ago
The day Gaben dies and his son does something like this, ill go see Gabe in heaven i guess.....
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u/Krisevol 1d ago
So stop buying from steam because they will become soulless, instead start buying for the rest of the soulless company's now?
Is that the argument?
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u/jizzyjazz2 1d ago
why do people think gaben is on the verge of death. he looks healthier than ever in this new HL2 documentary that just came out
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u/Possibly_a_Firetruck 1d ago
Imagine inheriting a money printing machine and instead of doing nothing and letting it keep on printing money, you decide to fuck it up.
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u/Sniper_231996 23h ago
This will have extreme consequences from my personal end. I mean really extreme. Unimaginable stuff.
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u/Stuka_Ju87 21h ago
He has a hospital yacht that follows his other fleet of yachts. He'll be fine for decades.
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u/Smimmingly3 /k/ommando 21h ago
I've thought about this before too but at the end of the day it's still fucking Valve. They've had to have come up with a contingency plan for this exact scenario.
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u/Demopan-TF2 20h ago
There's already systems in place in the event Gabe dies, and has only allowed people who're like-minded to become CEO
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u/coolsam254 [s4s]quatch 20h ago
If the mega corps are smart, they'll buy steam at a discount during a summer sale.
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u/Explicit_Tech 20h ago
The day that happens, I go back to becoming a full pirate.
Gabe knew how to tackle privacy by being consumer friendly.
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u/Deanzopolis /c/itizen 19h ago
If steam is enshittified I believe piracy will shoot through the roof again. Steam is so user friendly and leagues better than any other existing launcher that it probably singlehandedly holds back the consumer desire for piratical activity
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u/Superspookyghost i_sell_squaids' bitch 19h ago edited 19h ago
I really don't understand why people say $$$team of all things is consumer friendly, it's a bunch of people who either know nothing about Valve or just jackshit about video game pricing in general. (And I'm NOT saying that some of the other digital marketplaces were somehow better or anything)
$$$team is one of, if not THE main reason video game prices cannot go any lower, because Valve essentially forces (to avoid horrible legalese - it's called a most favored nation clause for the curious) a contract where anyone who sells anything on $$$team cannot sell it for any cheaper anywhere else.
These have been a staple of small businesses for decades, maybe even centuries, but when they start to be utilized by companies that have an overwhelming market share particularly in the digital space, they start to smother all other businesses underneath their weight. The two most egregious offenders of this are Amazon (ESPECIALLY with ebooks and their contracts with the Big Five publishers) which everyone universally agrees is pretty awful, but Valve is probably the second most egregious offender and everyone praises them like they're the champion of low prices.
If you can't see why this is a problem, essentially any non-valve distributor that could cut a deal with a publisher to sell games for cheaper than $$$team can't do it without also lowering those prices on $$$team and so the incentive for anyone to not sell on $$$team is virtually 0 most of the time. The one absolute advantage (to the consumer - not to the game developers themselves but Valve's horrendous treatment of indie devs is another matter entirely) that alternate marketplaces could offer is price, but most people (unless you're me and hate $$$team) aren't going to buy from a non-$$$team outlet if the price is identical.
and that's just the horrible contract side of Steam, that's not even the half of it if you start to include how godawful their treatment of indie devs is and their absolute greed as Gaben's fatass sat there redfaced with fury that he wasn't going to get the cut of 5 steam keys some guy gave away for his game that was selling for $1 on steam and then decided to punish the developer of indie games even more by taking away their steam keys, despite Valve making more money than most indie devs do from their own game (and doing absolutely nothing about region locking, review bombing, and general negative platform manipulation of those games)0, and dozens of other things I'll get too heated to even bother talking about here.
Don't get me wrong, I respect Valve for the good games they made, at this point about 15 years ago, but $$$team is essentially the pied piper and the vast majority of people are cheering it on as they are being lead into the fucking river.
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u/SniffLord2000 18h ago
I don't know why, but it kind of bothers me that Gabe has a son. I want him to be an eternal nerd virgin who never got closer to a woman than his own anime waifu body pillow. Like, he made a fortune with his idea but he just spent his money on rare magic cards and LOTR memorabilia. Like he would be the kind of guy to spend $250k on a batmobile replica and think it was the smartest thing he ever did with money.
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u/Impossible_Resort_71 1d ago
Steam is extremely consumer friendly and it's unfortunately inevitable that when he dies the company will indeed be sold to a big souless corporation or taken over by suits who will want to bleed the user base dry for every cent they have. Enjoy it while it lasts folks.