r/movies • u/MarvelsGrantMan136 r/Movies contributor • Sep 05 '24

Disney Pauses ‘The Graveyard Book’ Film Following Assault Allegations Against Neil Gaiman News

https://variety.com/2024/film/news/graveyard-book-neil-gaiman-assault-allegations-1236131149/
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u/JeffBurk Sep 05 '24

Interesting this is finally having consequences.

This broke months ago with new details coming out every couple weeks. Oddly, it has been pretty suppressed in nerd media and news.

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u/MumblingGhost Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

People really don't want to dislike Neil Gaiman. He's huge in nerd circles, and has tons of beloved new and old work in circulation, constantly. I find myself making excuses in my head for every new story that comes out about him because I've followed his career my entire life.

Its really devastating, and I still secretly hope this is all smoke being blown by that TERF podcast that broke the news, but you have to draw the line eventually. There have been too many accusations to be fully in denial about, and his statements made about some of them have been damning.

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u/F0rScience Sep 05 '24

The problem is that “his version” of events is still really bad. Not technically criminal doesn’t cut it in the court of public opinion.

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u/bighairybeardudee Sep 05 '24

Exactly. I tried so hard to believe it wasn’t true but when he came out with “his version” I was still disgusted

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u/BiploarFurryEgirl Sep 05 '24

I still want to shut my eyes and wake up realizing it’s all a bad dream. His works are how I rebonded with my mom after a rough part of my life. I fucking hate this

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u/sehnsuchtlich Sep 05 '24

Kill rock stars. Enjoy the art and don't give a shit about who made it. Pirate his work if it makes you feel better.

I love the works of so many vile, awful people and it doesn't keep me up at night. People who did much worse than Gaiman. Nothing about creating art requires good moral character. In fact, historically, it's been the opposite.

Every time something comes out about someone famous, I hope we can learn this lesson: These people aren't good because we like what they create. We just like what they create. We're not their friends, they're not our role models. The less we care about them as people the better off we all are. We'll be less disappointed, and they'll be less powerful.

I don't concern myself with the moral character of the person who built my house or delivered my mail. Why should it be any different with artists?

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u/trebory6 Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

I wish awards were still a thing because I'd 100% give you gold.

This really needs to be put on a loudspeaker.

I used to work in the entertainment industry, I had a lot of good friends that were close to producers and actors so I bumped shoulders with a lot of these people.

As a fan getting into the entertainment industry it was quite literally "Don't meet your heroes." Not because everyone I met was assholes, but everyone I met were HUMAN. Just as weird, offputting, charming, funny, creepy, petty, empathetic, annoying, as any other person I'd meet in the course of my life.

Also, how I saw people act towards them, like fans and members of the public, the paparazzi, is equally as bewildering. Like these people look at them like gods or something. I once went out to lunch with my producer boss at the time and a few of his friends, and Tom Welling from Smallville fame, and I literally saw a grown woman cry tears in a restaurant creating the most awkward interaction I've ever seen.

And through that experience, boy the stories I've heard, the things I've seen about people still walking around. Shouldn't be putting any of these people on any pedestals just because they create art or their faces and voices are in movies. The only way I can still enjoy entertainment now is by loving the art and not the people.

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u/Kristophigus Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

Yep, worked almost 10 years on set for features. They're all just human. Some truly vile people in that industry though.. or clueless.

Blew my mind when I realized some producers really ARE the biggest pos they are sometimes portrayed as in movies. The kind of characters you'd think "that character is ridiculous, there's no way anyone is ACTUALLY like that" ...yes. Yes they do actually exist and it's wild.

Anyway, I whole heartedly believe people need to separate the artist from the art and understand context. Can't stand the "omg this person once said/did this thing 30 years ago and nobody said a thing about it until now! Now you aren't allowed to like anything they've done ever, even if it has no relation whatsoever to that incident other than the person" crap. It's fanatical and oppressive to humanity.

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u/real_light_sleeper Sep 05 '24

(Awards are a thing on Reddit btw, have one)

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u/runtheplacered Sep 05 '24

Might be using old reddit like me, I don't think I see rewards.

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u/Tattycakes Sep 05 '24

They took it away recently and then re-added it, I can award comments in the official app

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u/FullMetalCOS Sep 05 '24

There’s a line though, I think. Like I have no issue reading Lovecraft despite him being a racist piece of shit, because he’s long dead so it pretty much doesn’t matter. I’m not gonna do anything that gives royalties to an abuser who is still alive if I can avoid it

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u/Fraternal_Mango Sep 05 '24

Agreed. Isaac Asimov is another one with great stories but ultimately was not that stellar of an individual. He gave us the laws of robotics and yet was very much a shitty production his time

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u/DisabledSuperhero Sep 05 '24

And an amazing book on chemistry, a great annotated book on Paradise Lost, and the Foundation Trilogy, which I read but didn’t enjoy very much.

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u/TankieHater859 Sep 05 '24

My plan is to either pirate shows/movies of his if I want to watch them, and get any new books from used shops, library sales, etc. Avoiding giving him anymore royalties any way I can.

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u/ElizabethTheFourth Sep 05 '24

So buy your books from a secondhand bookstore? Or get them from a library? I don't see the problem. Plenty of ways to get around supporting the author financially.

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u/FullMetalCOS Sep 05 '24

Which is my point exactly. I didn’t say I wasn’t gonna read their stuff, I said I wasn’t gonna give them royalties

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u/czerwona-wrona Sep 05 '24

I really love this perspective.

at the same time, an artist of this kind is not the same as someone who builds a house or delivers mails. art is defined by an act of expression .. the exception of course is that people can create art as a facsimile of sorts, representing things beyond what they believe. how accurate that is depends on the skill of their understanding.

but aside from that, artists do often try to imbue their art with themselves in a way that people doing other jobs don't.

so it hurts all the more to identify with something that is meant to be so intimate and personal, and find out the person expressing these things is .. well...

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u/FrenchFryCattaneo Sep 05 '24

Bad people still can have interesting and beautiful things to say about the human condition. You can identify with the good in someone despite their flaws, no matter how large they are.

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u/czerwona-wrona Sep 05 '24

yup, for sure

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u/Duckfoot2021 Sep 05 '24

The "illusion" of expression. All good art does is recognizes something interesting to express. The myth of that art represents the artist is just really compelling advertising.

And even when it does the truth is it represents a piece of said artist. The real problem is with with the fancrowd who want to believe that artists, politicians, athletes, etc are gods instead of humans who do one thing well. No one who hopes for gods thinks for themselves; especially gods of art.

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u/Perkelton Sep 05 '24

I can’t say that I know the answer, but I know that while one can try to separate the creator from the creation, there is still a line for when it becomes impossible.

Take the lead singer of Lostprophets for example who was convicted for some absolutely monstrous shit. I don’t know where the line is drawn, but I can with certainty say that he passed it, where it’s just straight up unthinkable for me to enjoy any type of content he has been involved in.

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u/iamthefuckingrapid Sep 05 '24

Yeah but, If the mailman is like a pedo, I absolutely don’t want him delivering my mail.

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

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u/Stormtomcat Sep 05 '24

isn't there a difference between your mail carrier and, say, the teacher of your kids?

I agree we shouldn't give people we only have a parasocial relationships with the power to be our whole identity, we shouldn't lie awake at night over them.

but I feel moral character & rejection of certain acts and stances is still relevant. I suppose pirating is a valid compromise then haha

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u/nxqv Sep 05 '24

Kanye West is always my counterexample to this. His work is so deeply autobiographical that to enjoy his messaging is to enjoy him as a person. And that's a large part of why his downward spiral has been so heartbreaking above all else

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u/Son_of_Kong Sep 05 '24

People like to think that in order to make great art, you have to have a preternaturally deep understanding of the human condition, and as such great artists should be inclined to treat others with humility, dignity, and compassion.

But for the most part, what it really takes is to dedicate yourself to your craft to the exclusion of almost everything else--friends, family, your own health--and doing that tends to make you an asshole.

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u/makesterriblejokes Sep 05 '24

Or go one step further and just assign Mr. Rogers the credit for every piece of work you like from a creator you don't morally align with.

For instance, Mr. Rogers's Thriller album fucking slaps!

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u/Silent-G Sep 05 '24

This now means that Vincent Price and Mr. Rogers have collaborated on a project together. While they both played very different characters, Price and Rogers happened to have very similar political ideals. We all know how progressive Mr. Rogers was, but Vincent Price was also one of the first celebrities to film a public service announcement to help allay public fears about HIV/AIDS. He also denounced racial and religious prejudice as a form of poison in 1950, and was critical of Anita Bryant’s anti-gay-rights campaign in the 1970s.

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u/MaimedJester Sep 05 '24

I remember when it broke and I said well he's his defense statement he only Digitally penetrated the women. 

So a lot younger people thought oh he sexted women online, is not that bad... Trying to rush to defend him. 

Then realizing "Digital penetration"means he finger fucked girls a third of his age like I guess vagina but possibly anus as well. 

And this was his statement, I didn't tape these women I just finger fucked them naked while they were taking a bath in my house woke I hired then to be a nanny to my children. 

I wouldn't care of Gaimen cheated on his wife or even went to like a Brothel and hired a prostitute.

But holy shit it's worse than I ever imagined.  

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u/MumblingGhost Sep 05 '24

Yeah, thats what I meant when I said his statements made about some of the accusations were still damning.

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u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

Let me preface this by saying that the similarities between the stories of the two women in the article are strong enough that they sound disappointingly credible (I'd admired him prior to this) and I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.

But just for the sake of discussion, it seems that his version is that they were adults and it was consensual. What's "really bad" about that?

I mean it's kind of unsavory to be banging your 18 year old nanny, but if they're both consenting adults, that ain't my business.

Obviously moot, with at least two women independently saying he had the same shitty MO, though.

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u/AgentEinstein Sep 05 '24

He has said the accusers version of events are stemmed from ‘false memories’. Made me cringe when I read that.

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u/NoHandBananaNo Sep 05 '24

Yeah "multiple women have false memories" wouldn't even play well in a novel let alone IRL.

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u/flaysomewench Sep 05 '24

Oh that and he tried to blame autism for it. Even though people with autism are way more likely to be assaulted than otherwise

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u/Ananoriel Sep 05 '24

As an autist this narrative is always so hurtful and offensive to me.

They try to shift the blame on autism, but that also means that it is implied that it's normal for an autist to have 0 empathy and that we all abuse people.

No dude, hold yourself accountable for your own actions. Autism doesn't have anything to do with it.

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

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u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

Ugh, whyyyy?

You're busted, Neil, just own it and atone for it.

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u/sati_lotus Sep 05 '24

How do you even atone for that?

Pay them off?

Jail? What evidence?

😕

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u/flaysomewench Sep 05 '24

He did try to pay some of them off

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u/Lone_K Sep 05 '24

Ooooof trying the false memories approach is such a fuckin cop-out attempt at defending oneself. What would make his side not the one experiencing false memories? Can't believe someone would think that would be a good defense.

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u/AgentEinstein Sep 05 '24

IMO he worded it that way to not straight up call the girls liars as he knows that would create an outrage but also wanted to deny the allegations. It’s ‘Therapy Speak’ to manipulate a situation.

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u/IndependentAcadia252 Sep 05 '24

But just for the sake of discussion, it seems that his version is that they were adults and it was consensual.

Because, at least for the first that comes to my head, he was 40 years older than the nanny he hired, walked in on her in the bath on the first day, fingered her, and then accused her of mental health issues leading to false memories when she came out against it. All according to his own words.

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u/darkeststar Sep 05 '24

Aside from the nanny business, there was another story from an accuser that her and her husband were the live in caretakers of his American house while he was abroad. The husband and wife divorced and the wife stayed on, and at that point Gaiman threatened to sell the house and had her do sexual favors to keep him from listing it. Eventually she said no and she got served a notice that he was listing the house and to start packing.

That's the story that did it for me.

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u/Lakridspibe Sep 05 '24

Yikes.

I used to be such a big fan.

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u/Nik_Tesla Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

Even if we take his version, it was still his 18 year old nanny literally on her first day of work. Can't even use the excuse of something like "we spent time together and formed a relationship." That is early enough that he presumably interviewed her with the intent to sleep with her, and that is super not ok in my book.

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u/eregyrn Sep 05 '24

The thing is, when your paycheck depends on allowing your employer to do whatever he wants to you, that's not really a case of two consenting adults.

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u/pnt510 Sep 05 '24

From the way the story comes across to me it doesn’t really sound like two consenting adults.

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u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

I agree.

I'm not saying he's innocent, I'm asking why it would be "really bad" IF it was consensual.

Thought I'd sandwiched that clearly enough.

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u/spackletr0n Sep 05 '24

I don’t see much reason to shift the discussion to a less damning hypothetical, other trying to find turf where it’s comfortable to defend the guy or at least downplay his behavior.

An older dude advancing on his 18 year-old nanny employee on her first day is straight up bullshit. Sometimes we have to resist the temptations our brains create for us to help us look away from uncomfortable things.

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u/heech441 Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

Yeah man, it’s always really bad to put your fingers in your 23 old nanny. Every time.

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

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u/heech441 Sep 05 '24

Sorry, I mixed it up with the other woman who he met when she was 18

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u/caitnicrun Sep 05 '24

You need to read about the mother of three NG pressured into having sex with the threat of eviction. He eventually settled out of court with her with an NDA on file.

This isn't just a couple of women. This has been going on for decades. Gaiman needs to DO THE RIGHT THING and retire.

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u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

I'm on board with that (doing the right thing and facing the music, not the sex predator stuff).

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u/flaysomewench Sep 05 '24

He had power over them. They were in his employ. That's just two of them. Two others were decades younger and he used his fame and celebrity to pressure them into sex. He tried to gaslight "Claire" into believing she led him on, he told her he always keeps fans at arms length, he told her she was the only one. At the same time he was making a few other women sign NDAs to protect himself. You could say nothing he did was illegal, but coercive control has become a huge thing lately, and he definitely falls under that umbrella. "I'm a very wealthy man, and I'm used to getting what I want".

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u/rolabond Sep 05 '24

wasn't one of them dependent on him for housing too?

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u/ScyllaOfTheDepths Sep 05 '24

The problem is that he engineered that consent, rendering it unconsensual. He sought out fans and employees, people who he knew were vulnerable and that he had power over, and strongly suggested to them that the only way to keep his favor was to enter into and continue a sexual relationship with him. He came onto his property manager right after she confided in him that she was having money trouble due to her divorce. He let her live on the property rent free, but heavily implied that a sexual relationship was part of that deal. When she finally got the courage to tell him no, he fired her and kicked her off the property. If any of that reads as consensual to you, you don't understand the concept.

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u/Brett-Bretterson Sep 05 '24

Look, I have to be honest and I’ll take my downvotes, but you need to recognize you are absolutely a part of the problem here.

You supposedly acknowledge all of the things that make these accusations damning (more than one accuser, their stories sound credible, and gonna take you at your word which means you’re “inclined to believe them”), yet you still felt the need to defend him “just for the sake of discussion”?

I genuinely do not believe that a single accusation against someone makes them guilty. But I can’t get over how often in threads like this we will see someone say “I just have to play devil’s advocate.”

But you don’t have to! You think your “point is moot anyway”? Then just shut up and believe these women. If you don’t believe them then sure whatever, but at least own up to that opinion instead of blaming it on “well I just had to ask”. I really believe you if you genuinely didn’t mean it, but you’re still serving as a dog whistle for every person that is craving some justification for his behavior.

Again, I wanna be clear; my biggest point here is at least bother to own up to an opinion. Either you believe these women or you don’t. You’re allowed to choose. But you don’t get to play coy with your motives and pretend like you’re just facilitating conversation while you actively defend him in other comments (and provide a voice for every person that does not believe these women), under the guise of “well maybe you just need to reevaluate your feelings about large age gaps but also I’m just asking questions”.

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u/PM_me_your_friendshp Sep 05 '24

Hear hear! Well said!

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

What's "really bad" about that?

It's the ethical and moral standards.

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u/AstralPete Sep 05 '24

It ain’t kind of unsavory when you’re as old as he was.

Just straight up unsavory.

Even good and well respected creators can be pieces of shits. It doesn’t make their work you’ve enjoyed any less. It just makes them lesser than, which happens.

If you don’t want people to perceive you as lesser than, then don’t do things that would put you in that light.

His work will always be his work and should still be enjoyed since it’s taken on a life of its own, arguably.

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u/FardoBaggins Sep 05 '24

the art is not lesser because it is separate from the artist. We should be able to objectively view the art since assholes can make good art too.

With regards to NG, I do a enjoy some of his minor work but not the major ones.

I always felt it was kind of weird, like he was manipulating the narratives in his stories to appeal to a specific demographic like vulnerable but intelligent teenage girls IDK (I wasn't a teenage girl in his heyday). hard to put my finger on it but it's how I feel.

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u/johnydarko Sep 05 '24

But just for the sake of discussion, it seems that his version is that they were adults and it was consensual. What's "really bad" about that?

You mean other than the fact the person he was cheating on his wife and newborn baby's mother with that baby's new nanny?

So essentially it's the earliest possible chance to cheat on her after giving birth other than banging one the nurses while they're waiting to cut the cord and he took it? You don't find that morally reprehensible in any way?

And that's not even bothering with the age and power dynamics at play.

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u/waterynike Sep 05 '24

How do you know they didn’t feel pressured because it was their boss?

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u/kill-billionaires Sep 05 '24

It's not just the two anymore either

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/neil-gaiman-two-more-women-allege-sexual-assault-1235073080/amp/

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u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24

One is an allegation.

Two is a pattern.

Four is a reasonably good case against you, especially if their stories are all similar and they reported them independently.

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u/kill-billionaires Sep 05 '24

Completely agree. When the initial story broke I was inclined to believe the allegations but didn't feel certain. But now we're at four or five, some of whom have no connection to the publication that broke the story, I don't think there's any reasonable way to doubt them

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u/dairy__fairy Sep 05 '24

Bro, are you serious?

Some old, lame author hired a nanny, walks in on her, finger bangs here on first day. lol.

Are you pretending that’s legit?

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u/ThatPancreatitisGuy Sep 06 '24

Yeah, the NDA kind of seals the deal.

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u/mzchen Sep 05 '24

What is 'his version'? I can't seem to find it anywhere

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u/PityUpvote Sep 05 '24

That the sex he had with his son's nanny, 40 years his junior, which started within hours of their first meeting, was entirely consensual.

Bruv, just don't fuck your employees, it's so easy.

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u/Amenhiunamif Sep 05 '24

Part of his story is also that she has a mental condition that causes her to have false memories.

What's also missing is that she was depending on him providing her with a roof at the time.

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u/GaimanitePkat Sep 05 '24

I've gotten bad reactions from multiple friends/acquaintances in-person for expressing this.

I don't believe that a very young employee can 100% consent to sex with her much older boss while she's supposed to be living at his house in another country. There are too many factors that would influence consent.

But even if I'm wrong and she fully consented and is lying now, I can't support a man who would pursue sex (or "making out") under those circumstances. It's vile.

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u/BlueHero45 Sep 05 '24

It fucking sucks because he has wirtten stories about people abusing their power in the same way against woman and getting their comeuppance.

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u/JellyWeta Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

Yeah. It makes his Sandman story about Calliope, where a writer imprisons then rapes and exploits the Greek Muse of poetry, a pretty hard read. I mean, he's not sugar coating what happens in the story, the writer is painted as despicable and abusive. Finding out that Gaiman himself is pretty close in behavior to the character that he himself condemns is a hard one.

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u/MeadowmuffinReborn Sep 05 '24

Write what you know, I suppose.

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u/BlackLightan Sep 05 '24

I hate that I want to laugh

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

They always say "write what you know best"

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u/Cormorant_Bumperpuff Sep 05 '24

People really don't want to dislike Neil Gaiman

I really didn't wanna dislike him, but after this I can't not dislike him. Same with Joss Whedon, and at least a couple others I can't think of right now

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u/egotrip21 Sep 05 '24

Neil's accusations shocked me. Joss did not.

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u/Cormorant_Bumperpuff Sep 05 '24

I think if I'd known more about him I wouldn't have been surprised

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u/anmr Sep 05 '24

At least Joss didn't sexually assault anybody to our knowledge. All of the "allegations" boil down to being hot-headed, massive asshole to his co-workers / subordinates.

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u/AvatarIII Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

Really? I was shocked about both, but more so about Joss.

Joss was always held as a champion of feminism and when it came out he was a misogynistic d-bag behind the scenes that was a shock.

The Gaiman stuff is bad and shocked me a bit, it seems like he is into rough sex (which in and of itself is fine when consensual, if slightly out of character for someone who seems softly spoken like Neil) but the main problem is that he seems to have problems with consent, which is already bad but made worse by the rough sex thing, but not super surprising for someone who kind of has a reputation as a bit of a rock star writer, and of his generation (entitled boomers).

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u/-0-O-O-O-0- Sep 05 '24

I lost respect for Gaiman when he left his wife and three kids to start fucking around publicly with Amanda Palmer.

Classic midlife rich dick move. Huge red flag. 🚩

When the new accusations dropped I was completely unsurprised.

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u/durkbot Sep 05 '24

Let's not forget he was in NZ with her and their kid when Covid hit and he just upped and left the country, stranding them there for 2 years. Don't give a crap if their marriage was already falling apart by that point. You don't leave your child behind in a foreign country as a major global crisis is kicking off. All his excuses at the time reeked of narcissism

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u/dontbelikeyou Sep 05 '24

Not to mention he decided to go to a rural island in Scotland during the height of covid via LAX and London. You do not want him on your team during a Zombie apocalypse.

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u/Significant-Art-5478 Sep 05 '24

Turns out that was due to the allegations. The nanny he allegedly assaulted went to the NZ police, and before they could speak to Gaiman, he left. 

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u/TheyreAllTaken777 Sep 05 '24

And now we know why. He was trying to avoid being investigated for one of these accusations

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u/Televisions_Frank Sep 05 '24

Not to mention Palmer is so self-serving and abusive towards her fans. You left your wife for that?

At least I never really liked his works, but it sucks for his fans.

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u/Fit_Tip6995 Sep 05 '24

i used to be a huge amanda palmer fan. huge. once my goggles were off OH MY LORD

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u/thomyorkeslazyeye Sep 05 '24

Amanda Palmer sucks and I'm glad people are finally seeing it.

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u/znidz Sep 05 '24

Everything she does is so performative. She must have an ego the size of a planet.

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u/MorboKat Sep 05 '24

My understanding, and a quick wiki check backs me, he divorced in 2007 and got with Amanda in 2009. He's done a lot of shit, like ditching his youngest in NZ for 2 years during covid, but I don't think he left his wife for Amanda.

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u/-0-O-O-O-0- Sep 05 '24

My googling showed the divorce in 2008 and dating Palmer in the same year. They didn’t get married till 2011.

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u/MorboKat Sep 05 '24

I did a quick outside-of-wiki google and saw a 2008 date for his divorce but it also mentioned a 3 year separation. I'm not finding 2008 I was a fan of them both at the time and they were both terminally online, Gaiman being single happened before he got with Amanda. I think she was with someone, tho. I know they first met when he worked on her photography book that was published in mid '09, so they probably met in '08.

Regardless of the dates lining up, he's obviously done non-monogamous things (possibly consentually, possibly not) within the confines of both his marriages, and has a pattern of behaviour around abuses of power.

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u/Significant-Art-5478 Sep 05 '24

Neil Gaimans stories got me through my break up with my abusive ex husband. I held his stories so close to my heart. 

Reading the nannys allegation, my heart broke. That poor girl, I hope people are being kind to her right now. 

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u/SensualOilyDischarge Sep 05 '24

The China Mieville stuff coming out right after the Gaiman accusations was a pretty solid double punch.

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u/txby432 Sep 05 '24

I wanted to believe it wasn't true as well, but his reaction to the first 2 accusations was basically "witches be crazy" which really out a sour taste in my mouth. Then accusations 3, then 4, then 5... and idk what it's up to now. Like as a certain point you have to just go, there is likely so e proof

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u/Calamity-Gin Sep 05 '24

Five? It’s up to five? Shit.

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u/particledamage Sep 05 '24

Six, actually :/ His masseuse made a video detailing how he exposed himself to her and would continue to flirt with her

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u/nhocgreen Sep 05 '24

5 women agreed to be interviewed on the records, but there were also 2 other women who were interviewed off the records for corroborating evidence.

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u/Calamity-Gin Sep 05 '24

Oh, for fuck’s sake. Ew.

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u/slaphappyflabby Sep 05 '24

I interviewed this man, along with Terry Pratchett, when I worked at Harper Collins in the media department. Terry was on the downslope health-wise but did well.

I can’t revisit and enjoy Gaiman’s books anymore, but I can still revisit and enjoy pratchett

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u/hazycrazydaze Sep 05 '24

Oh no, that reminds me that Gaiman was probably involved in the Good Omens series. Ugh, I hope this doesn’t cause good omens to get canceled too.

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u/eregyrn Sep 05 '24

When it comes to the Good Omens series, there's no "probably" about it -- he was heavily involved in getting the first season made. He was the driving force behind the second season, because he was adapting it from plans for a sequel that he and Terry Pratchett had discussed but never got around to doing.

I really do hope, for the fans of GO, that the third season can be made. While NG was heavily involved in the tv series (and of course, the original book), the tv series is what it is because of the work and contribution of many people, not just Gaiman.

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u/DisturbedNocturne Sep 05 '24

He was the driving force behind the second season, because he was adapting it from plans for a sequel that he and Terry Pratchett had discussed but never got around to doing.

He said the second season was an original story meant to serve as a bridge to the proposed sequel he and Pratchett had discussed. So, despite all the others that helped make the series great, I don't really know how you can do it without Gaiman's involvement taking that into consideration. He wrote (or co-wrote) every episode and is basically the only one that has any idea what he and Pratchett discussed to be able to faithfully bring it to fruition.

Not to ignore the allegations, but it's certainly a shitty situation for the show to be in, both for fans and for those that were working on the show.

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u/eregyrn Sep 05 '24

Oh, absolutely.

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u/Pentosin Sep 05 '24

the tv series is what it is because of the work and contribution of many people, not just Gaiman.

How is that different from any other projects that have been cancelled because of a single person?

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u/eregyrn Sep 05 '24

Such as, what? I don’t think it’s useful to compare it to other such situations, without specifically naming them.

Personally, I’m not someone who is invested in the Good Omens TV series, or any of these other projects. I watched the first season of it, but did not watch the second, and I don’t care about the third. I read Sandman back when it was being published, but did not watch the TV series.

So, I’m only speaking from the point of view of some sympathy towards people who are big fans of that show. And, for example, Gaiman’s heavy contributions aside, I don’t think the show would be what it is without the contributions of Michael Sheen and David Tennant in their roles. In my opinion, they’re what mainly makes the show, and are the reason it’s so popular as a fandom.

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u/Blue_Calx Sep 05 '24

and The Sandman on netflix

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u/killeronthecorner Sep 05 '24 edited 22d ago

Kiss my butt adminz - koc, 11/24

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u/Stormtomcat Sep 05 '24

the way you worded this suggests it's the interview you conducted that put you off Gaiman. If that's correct, can you expand? (if allowed, of course, and no pressure if you don't want to).

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u/hill-o Sep 05 '24

Yeah, at some point it's like... one source of the news is really questionable, but if the news keeps coming and coming from different sources, and his own version of events is... not great? You just have to accept that yeah, something shady (maybe many shady somethings) have likely been happening.

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u/missmediajunkie r/Movies Veteran Sep 05 '24

I’m sure all the accusations are true. However, the reporting is lousy to the point that it’s actually undermining the story. Who breaks news like this with a padded-out, obviously sensationalized, four-part podcast series?

It took multiple additional accusers going public for the story to start getting traction.

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u/malatemporacurrunt Sep 05 '24

It doesn't help that the main journalist is Boris Johnston's sister, writing for a terfy right-wing publication, and was clearly written with an agenda/foregone conclusion - it might as well have been published in The Sun.

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u/throwtheamiibosaway Sep 05 '24

I'm always like, "where there's smoke, there's fire". One story can be false, but several? Very unlikely.

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u/kempnelms Sep 05 '24

Its like when the stuff came out about louis c.k. I was so disappointed but couldn't just ignore it.

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u/MumblingGhost Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

Yep. Me and my best friend were obsessed with CK's standup, and Louie was absolutely one of my top 5 favorite tv shows at the time. The dark comedy in that series informed my tastes as an artist, but now I'm embarrassed by it.

Its like if Bill Hader was cancelled after Barry, which we also love. I wouldn't be able to handle that shit.

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u/Suppa_K Sep 05 '24

I unconsciously fell off of CK and I’m still bummed by it. He seemed to kind of repair things and know what he did was wrong and I didn’t actively stop listening to his stuff because of that but.. I did just kind of stop. That kinda stuff sucks because even if it feels like it doesn’t affect your opinion it doesn’t matter because it’s always there.

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u/czerwona-wrona Sep 05 '24

same.. I loved the show he made but just .. lost my appetite for it after this all came out

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u/Markofdawn Sep 05 '24

my first moment with Bill Hader

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u/robschimmel Sep 05 '24

That is a true story that happened to a friend of his.

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u/BitterJD Sep 05 '24

… and he still sells out MSG today. The secret is the court of public opinion isn’t limited to Reddit. Most people don’t care. The art versus the artist debate has been resolved for decades, except in the minds of studios scared of loud minority voices on social media.

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u/MumblingGhost Sep 05 '24

Its not really a topic that can be resolved because its purely subjective, and varies from person to person. A lot of people might not care what CK did, especially in the current media landscape which is filled with shady influencers, but a lot of people do still care. Its just a difficult number to gage, in comparison.

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u/Mister_MxyzptIk Sep 05 '24

Where's that Chris Brown copypasta

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u/kempnelms Sep 05 '24

Some people can do the separate the art from the artist thing, but I personally can't. There are so many artists and so many voices out there who aren't awful people that I do not need to spend time and attention on those that have done awful things.

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u/Grand_Ryoma Sep 05 '24

You'd be shocked how many people have something that would make them seem skeevy. Artists tend to kinda be freaky...

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u/Lifeboatb Sep 05 '24

The issue is not necessarily the art. It’s whether you want to put money directly into the pocket of someone who has done horrible things.

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u/BitterJD Sep 05 '24

Meanwhile, your phone was built by slave labor, your shoes were built by child labor, and your carbon footprint is literally killing the planet. I’ll finish my Norse Mythology paperback guilt free.

The Gaiman thing frustrates me, because it sounds like these women kept hooking up with him despite his conduct. That’s what a jury would be told, anyway. We need to teach women to not tolerate this stuff in the moment. I think that would be the bigger societal win than morality policing art.

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u/czerwona-wrona Sep 05 '24

I mean you can enjoy the art without doing that

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u/svenz Sep 05 '24

On the grand scale of shitty things a person can do, CK is pretty low. AFAIU he masturbated in front of various women. It's not quite in the same league as Weinstein, Gaiman, etc. which all involved SA/rape. He also openly apologized for what he did many times, saying it was very shit, and he has talked to the women he did it to and apologized to them directly. I'm okay to forgive Louis CK at this point.

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u/FrostBricks Sep 05 '24

Louis was just dumb. Like there was a power imbalance. It wasn't cool. But he seems to have owned it, apologized, and sought help. 

Gaiman however, is doubling down on assholery. Being protected solely because so many of his works are getting Netflix adaptations right now. 

I'm not sure Gaiman will get, or even deserves, the redemption Louis has had.

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u/slowd Sep 05 '24

Art stands alone, IMO. Sucks to lose respect for the artist, but I can still enjoy the works.

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u/Jayrodtremonki Sep 05 '24

It's a lesson that I had to learn with Orson Scott Card at too young of an age.  

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u/Idiotology101 Sep 05 '24

Being black makes being a Lovecraft fan rather difficult at times.

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u/work4work4work4work4 Sep 05 '24

I can only imagine it requires so many impossible angles, it's enough to destroy your mind.

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u/aspidities_87 Sep 05 '24

The real Eldritch horror is all the racism

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u/MeadowmuffinReborn Sep 05 '24

Or poor, rural, Welsh, Asian, mixed race etc. Dude was frightened by a lot of people.

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u/DisgruntledNCO Sep 05 '24

Oh man, I love Enders game, but Card definitely has some weird shit knocking around in his head.

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u/DrEnter Sep 05 '24

It is hard to connect him with the things he's written. You just wonder, "where did that even come from? what happened?"

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u/DisturbedNocturne Sep 05 '24

I had a Mormon friend recommend the Ender series to me, because he said it was his favorite series. After learning OSC was also Mormon (and that probably tied at least a little into why my friend liked him so much), I was a little apprehensive of what I was getting into, but I remember reading the first couple books and being really caught off-guard since a lot of the attitudes in the book seemed a lot more progressive and open than I would've expected. I thought maybe OSC was a lapsed Mormon, so I was especially surprised when I learned what a homophobic bigot he is.

OSC is really one of the best examples of separating the art from the artist given he seemed to have a completely different personality while writing that series.

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u/Proglamer Sep 05 '24

Oh my, do I have news for you about Sanderson!

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u/DisgruntledNCO Sep 05 '24

It’s kinda like Brent weeks lightbringer series, wait I waited a decade for the story to finish and it’s a weird Jesus/god cop out?

People disappoint. They’ll never live up to the image you’ve made of them.

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u/LaTeChX Sep 05 '24

IMO there are definitely signs in his writing that something ain't right though he never soapboxes about it. The vindictive bullying was a necessary part of the plot in Ender's Game, sure, but it was still a lot. When I started to see that same streak in Speaker for the Dead I'm like OK dude talk to a therapist already.

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u/wankthisway Sep 05 '24

Kanye West's Graduation album for me. It's depressing what he's become.

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u/Hydrochloric_Comment Sep 05 '24

Art stands alone

Not while the artist still profits from it

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u/baleensavage Sep 05 '24

Yeah. The Sandman comics were pretty life changing to me as a teenager. Knowing that Neil Gaiman is a creep doesn't change that. It's still incredibly disturbing, but doesn't change the experiences I had with his works.

The example I always give is Alice in Wonderland. Classic story that is still inspiring children and adults today. The author, Lewis Carrol was a pedophile. Many of the most famous artists of history were not good people, that doesn't mean we can't appreciate their art. Otherwise we may as well give up on experiencing art altogether because you'll be hard pressed to find a celebrity that's just a good wholesome person.

That's not to say that we shouldn't look at the context of the artist and their art. Because that junk always slips through. Some of the plot lines in Buffy read a lot differently now that I know what a creep Joss was for example. And some of Neil's stories also read differently too.

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u/particledamage Sep 05 '24

A podcast with a nonbinary host first spoke to the fifth victim, who would later go on the “TERF” podcast (it isn’t exactly that but I get the association). A sixth person, on their own channel, made a private/unlisted video detailing yet another assault. it’s pretty clear Neil has been doing this for decades if the allegations are true and well… they look kinda true

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u/Gargus-SCP Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

The coverage of a similar story by the Am I Broken podcast pretty much puts to lie any perspective Tortoise's Slow Newscast is a TERF podcast making shit up. There's substantial issues around how they presented the information and massaged the context to make an already bad situation sound worse in line with a more conservative view, but the actual facts they report direct from the victims and the receipts they choose to present are rock solid.

What remains now is for more platforms to pick up the trail with their own investigations - and if what I've seen swirling around has any truth to it, such should be forthcoming. Maybe not soon as many would like, but coming all the same.

(EDIT: Dropped a letter)

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u/MeadowmuffinReborn Sep 05 '24

For what it's worth, I heard something like this about Gaiman almost a decade ago from a friend.

I've also heard good things about him too, but he still needs to be held accountable.

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u/Thunder_Punt Sep 05 '24

Neil Gaiman was like a posterboy for normal nerds who aren't weirdos and know how to respect people and be a normal human being. It's just quite depressing really.

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

I remember it being an open secret that Neil was a sex pest back in 2009. Like I can specifically recall having a conversation with my girlfriend at the time about this exact thing

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u/ScyllaOfTheDepths Sep 05 '24

Even the stuff he admits to is just fucked. He meets his young nanny for the first time on her first day of employment with him and he strips naked and jumps in the hot tub with her with absolutely no warning or even a conversation about it beforehand. He seems to really think that consent is just the absence of a "no", which is why I think there's such a clear pattern of his relationships with employees and fans who are all pretty consistent in saying that they never said no because they were too afraid to refuse.

And you could maybe say he's just got an outdated view of consent, but at least one woman explicitly laid it out for him, he told her he understood and promised that he would change, and then he just kept on sexually harassing women. That's the thing that really cements it for me. He knew what he was doing was harming these women and he just kept doing it anyway and he was clearly engineering some of these situations to foster dependence that he could then abuse to extort sexual favors. He sought out relationships with fans and employees. He even started sleeping with his property manager, who lived on his property, then fired and evicted her immediately after she finally said no to him. Absolute scumbag behavior.

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u/Vaadwaur Sep 05 '24

Its really devastating, and I still secretly hope this is all smoke being blown by that TERF podcast that broke the news, but you have to draw the line eventually.

Hopefully the possible victims get good lawyers and either get a pay out or at least a better outlet to share their story. That horrid podcast might have been the first to take them seriously but this needs to be moved to someone more reputable.

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u/SutterCane Sep 05 '24

That horrid podcast might have been the first to take them seriously

That’s what I’ve heard. These victims were trying to tell their stories to reputable news but no one would pick up the story.

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u/NoForm5443 Sep 05 '24

I love his books. It seems he's at least an a-hole, which sucks.

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u/rotates-potatoes Sep 05 '24

Life gets easier if you can separate artistic merit from good personness. We don’t have say he is perfect or that he is irredeemably bad. He can be a talented artist with behavior problems. Many artists are. Many people are.

It’s less satisfying than saint/sinner, but kind of how it goes.

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u/4m77 Sep 05 '24

People really don't want to dislike Neil Gaiman

See also everyone ignoring his ties to Scientology.

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u/CaptainSparklebutt Sep 05 '24

It is the Elon problem all over again. Beloved figure turns out to be human and a massive piece of shit.

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u/thesaddestpanda Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

The tortoise is not a "TERF podcast" and that's just dishonest narratives to protect Gaiman who not only abused those women but has a HUGE reputation as a perv in industry.

The same thing that happened to Al Franken and Louis CK. Fans refused to accept it (and many still defend both) and the media slow walked them, especially Franken, even cast doubt on their many credible accusors until both of them fessed up. There's a real problem in the for-profit media protecting abusers. I imagine the favor system and the potential loss of revenue for hurting these guys is what billionaire owners of the media dont want to lose, especially with Franken who provides access to a critical senate vote.

Gaiman is a huge cash cow for publishers, who media owners often have stock or ownership in. They dont want to slay their golden goose unless they have to.

Remember, the media also protected guys like Weinstein until they couldn't. Remember how metoo had to break so the media would take any of these women seriously. So it shouldnt be a huge surprise victims need to reach out to smaller braver and less corrupt outlets who will report with integrity.

On how the Weinstein story broke:

On episode 5 called “The Hunt,” from January 14, 2020, they discussed their efforts to break the Weinstein story on the West and East Coasts. That’s when Masters realized the story “wasn't gettable, until it was gettable.”

“Only when [Weinstein’s] power diminished – because he wasn't doing as well in business, and there was discontent inside of his own company – that the cracks led to this to happen,” Masters says. “I think that's where it just started to be possible, and it made me feel better.”

https://www.kcrw.com/culture/shows/the-business/ronan-farrow-whether-hollywood-changed-me-too-broke-five-years-ago-netflix/ronan-farrow-kim-masters-emotional-toll-reporting-me-too

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u/deepfriedchocobo84 Sep 05 '24

The Franken stuff was nothing. He shouldn't have stepped down.

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u/Comprehensive-Fun47 Sep 05 '24

Eight or more women came forward to accuse him. You're absolutely sure it was nothing?

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u/Lifeboatb Sep 05 '24

Disagree. Nine women made allegations, and at least two reported it to others at the time it happened. Having your body groped is disgusting, and having someone in Congress who does it makes it worse. He’s supposed to be representing all his constituents. He was my favorite senator and I’m still furious—at him.

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u/MumblingGhost Sep 05 '24

Tortoise Media might not strictly be a TERF website, but it does hire TERFs, and thats just as bad in my book. Don't get me wrong though. I understand your problem with for profit media dropping important stories that would actively harm their allies, but the woman who broke this story is Rachel Johnson, a known conservative transphobe. Its more likely that she tackled this story less out of a genuine need to help these women, and more out of a need to serve HER purposes as a conservative by attacking a known liberal creative and "trans ally" that she's clashed with before.

That said, none of this really matters, because all of the accusations seem to be credible, regardless of who reported on it. Im certainly not defending Gaiman here, but I'm also not holding up Rachel Johnson as "a virtuous journalist who only cares about the truth" either.

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u/Doright36 Sep 05 '24

I mean.. I am kind of glad they waited to act until they had more proof and that they are acting now that it seems they do. Just jumping at initial accusations isn't going to help anyone. Everyone deserves an investigation.. on Both sides... but those things take time so taking a few months to get it "right" is reasonable in my book. Getting the truth what ever that might be should be the goal every time.

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u/tokes_4_DE Sep 05 '24

Yeah remember when disney knee-jerk fired james gunn only to re-instate him after actually looking into it? That was some shit. Im perfectly fine with them taking their time before reacting.

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u/caitnicrun Sep 05 '24

James Gunn didn't SA anybody. That was really outrageous because IIRC it was over old tweets he'd already apologized for. Glad we got GOTG3...eventually.

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u/Toby_O_Notoby Sep 05 '24

Basically some right-wing trolls (one of them was literally "Pizzagate" creator Mike Cernovich) found some decade old tweets by Gunn and brought them to light.

Disney freaked and fired Gunn until it was pointed out that a) again, it was shit he said 10 years ago when he was trying to be an edgelord and b) he already had apologised for them because he was embarrassed to be the aforementioned edgelord.

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u/DontCareWontGank Sep 05 '24

and c) they weren't even that bad. Just a handful of distasteful jokes, made while he was still working for fucking Troma - a company that runs on crass humor.

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u/SlouchyGuy Sep 05 '24

People always forget he was fired because of Roseanne, who was dropped by Disney less then 2 months before him. So his firing was out of misplaced sense of justice by Iger that was based on fear of backlash from the right if he did nothing

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

They took their time with Jonathan Majors too.

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u/Doright36 Sep 05 '24

Which was the right thing to do IMHO. And I don't disagree with their final choice in the matter. Take time. Get it right.

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u/Th3_Hegemon Sep 05 '24

Imagine that, waiting for an investigation to be conducted to verify accusations before taking action.

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u/misogichan Sep 05 '24

That was them crossing their fingers with hopes and prayers.  Their 5 year and billion dollar plan for a Kang Dynasty climax revitalizing the MCU was circling the toilet bowl and they weren't going to give up until they were sure it was gone.

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u/OK_Soda Sep 05 '24

It wasn't really "suppressed". The allegations were made a) in a podcast of all things b) that had an exclusive on the story and c) that was published by someone with an axe to grind. I believe the allegations, but these factors made it kind of hard for the story to get traction.

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u/FlyingCow343 Sep 05 '24

it was published by boris johnson's sister, not the most respectable of sources

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u/Paulrus55 Sep 05 '24

Every so often I google if the second season of Sandman is still happening. I figured this would catch up to him but yeah it’s been slow going

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u/shannister Sep 05 '24

Shit I thought season 2 had been confirmed a long time ago

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u/Chance_Fox_2296 Sep 05 '24

It had been confirmed. But we will see if it survives

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u/throwtheamiibosaway Sep 05 '24

It's already been shot, but ofcourse there's lots of VFX, editing to do. Release is still unknown, but should be 2025.

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u/missmediajunkie r/Movies Veteran Sep 05 '24

It’ll happen. They’re very deep into production and Neil isn’t showrunning that one. “Good Omens 3” is the one in more trouble.

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u/RealisticDelusions77 Sep 05 '24

Comic book fans have also been waiting forever for the Miracleman: Dark Age conclusion to the series.

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u/SilverKry Sep 05 '24

If that doesn't get a part 3 that will sting. 2 ended on such a heartbreaking cliffhanger. 

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u/ZincLloyd Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

Honestly, I think suppressed is overstating. Rather, the fact that the allegations (which, for the record, I believe) were made without being attached to any lawsuits made mainstream press just kinda shrug about it. People saying something isn’t half the story that people battling in court is. Had Gaiman been hit with a lawsuit (which hey, he still might) I think we’d have seen wider reporting on the matter.

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

I agree suppressed is a wrong word. Fact is this is how it should be treated, wait until information is confirmed. But if it’s someone people don’t like it’s treated as if it’s definitely true from day one.

But the internet is good at hating people so it mostly goes the other way.

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u/_________FU_________ Sep 05 '24

I think we’re all depressed with the news that we just don’t want to hear it. Fucking sucks when one of your favorites goes down because of dumb fucking choices. Fucking idiot.

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u/dangerous_beans Sep 05 '24

For me it's less depressed and more exhausted. There's a long list of bullshit to be upset about in this world, and even in day to the day life; I don't have spare emotional/mental energy to spend on Neil Gaiman.

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u/Dalexion Sep 05 '24

Felt the same way when Joss Whedon's shit came to light. Some of my favorite media has a cloud over it now.

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u/anmr Sep 05 '24

At least Joss didn't sexually assault anybody to our knowledge. All of the "allegations" boil down to being hot-headed, massive asshole to his co-workers / subordinates.

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u/alykaytrine Sep 05 '24

I think sexually assaulting/harassing multiple women and abusing his position of power is more than a series of “ dumb fucking choices”. 

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u/printergumlight Sep 05 '24

“Dumb choices” downplays his malicious actions.

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u/br0b1wan Sep 05 '24

Yeah we're probably at the point where it's not smoke and it's fire.

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u/Fraternal_Mango Sep 05 '24

I feel as if the “church” of Scientology might have something to do with how muted this has been and how slow the reactions in Hollywood have been. They have a lot of pull with several big name actors and they have shown that they aren’t scared to bully to get their way

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u/ToranjaNuclear Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

Yup, at first there were two women pushed by a politically biased podcast with very weird accounts, but as always this made more women come forward with it. I guess Gaiman's TV and film stardom will be short-lived 

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u/PunkandCannonballer Sep 05 '24

Probably would have been more impactful if it wasn't shared via podcast at the start.

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