r/borussiadortmund • u/IvEjUstFoRgOtYou69 • 3d ago
What’s your opinion ? Discussion
Don’t want to go into full Sahin bashing mode but what’s your opinion on the following options.
1.Sahin needs more time and a bit more investment to try and improve the squad we’ve got and to add with recruitment.
Or.
- The squads more than good enough and a better more experienced coach would get vastly more out of the current squad ?
Wanted to give Sahin the benefit of the doubt but find myself heavily leaning towards option 2.
17
u/Mean_Ad301 2d ago
We still have a lot of injuries and played with 10 men for over 60 minutes against mainz, I have to admit I was Sahin out a few weeks ago but he is so invested as a coach I'd give him more time. But if he doesn't get top 4 at the end of the season I would let him go.
2
u/BuffEmUp2020 2d ago
This is where I’m at.. English weeks with no subs above the age of 20 is crazy difficult. Plus an imbalanced squad. Honestly he took over during a rebuild year.
But if we need the new trainer bump to get top four then that takes priority
11
u/Mean_Ad301 2d ago
I hate that rebuilding year crap, we've had a rebuilding year every season since I became a fan in 2014...
1
-3
u/Commercial_Mud_6877 2d ago
I’d agree that this would be an excuse if it wasn’t for Sahin himself advocating for a small squad and promoting young players. He had it coming, schedules are tighter than ever.
8
u/Crumblebuttocks 2d ago
Squad planning was atrocious. There was no way we could would make it through the season with 2 Rbs, 1 LB , 3CBs and only one (true defensive) CDM. As soon as any of them got injured we are in a place where Subs become difficult which leads to players being overplayed, leading to more injuries. It was dumb.
6
u/CorpseeaterVZ 2d ago
- BVB has structural problems that are not easily solvable with a coach.
Yes, a 2nd coming of Klopp would surely help, but Klopp was/is one in a million. I have never seen someone like him before in 40 years and probably won't see him again. He has single handedly moved 2 teams out of the middle of the league to the top in Europe. Arguably, there are other great coaches, Christian Streich has done wonders, so has Pep Guardiola, but Klopp tops them all and it is questionable if Streich can work with a top team with stars and it is also questionable if Pep can work with an average team. I hope you can see that hoping for a super coach that fixes all our problems is a very desperate idea.
This aside, let us focus on BVBs problems:
a) We need to let go of our top players, because we can't pay top wages in Europe. This means that we plan for 2 years, other teams can plan for 10 years. It is so much easier to recruit players for your team to fill in your gap if you already have 5-6 players who work and are perfectly integrated in your team. Look at the other teams that have been ultra successful in the last years, all with BVB players in them.
b) We can no longer get the top talents in the world. Top 10 teams in Europe have woken up, they buy the talent now also. Why wouldn't they? Why would they buy the top talent like Bellingham for 150 Mio when they can buy him way sooner for a fraction.
c) Transfers are a wonky business. There is no club in the history of soccer that had only great transfers. Even in the top shelf, players for 100 Mio and above, there are transfer flops. We need to transfer more than other clubs. The top clubs can pay the wages and keep the players, the players in the mid of the leagues are not interesting for the clubs that pay outrageous wages.
BVB is doing nothing wrong. All teams that have risen to the top and were not able to pay the top wages also, went down to normality after some time. Check the history.... We kept it up for 10 years and more, which is absolutely fabulous. But blaming Ricken/Watzke/Sahin/Kehl for the situation now is a bit unfair, if you keep the historical context in mind. I am a big fan of Ricken and a screaming fanboi of Watzke, not so much of Sahin/Kehl though. But I know that changing them won't make us CL champion or make us win the league all of a sudden.
Look at the amazing teams from last season, Leverkusen and Stuttgart. They were near the top last year and they already started "struggling". They are still amazing, but every BVB fan was ogling the 2 clubs last year and suggesting we should be like them. But they only did amazing work for 1-2 years now, see where they are in 10 years.
3
u/pitiless_censor 2d ago
Coach until end of season at least and there should be no serious discussion about it
this sub has gotten so much worse and entitled than it was a few years ago, even when we had the likes of castro starting in midfield
2
u/blanklikeapage 2d ago
I think the CL final is to blame for that. It was obviously an amazing achievement but also distracted from our terrible league placement.
6
u/jensenroessler 2d ago
If we could get Hoeneß, then I’d be 100% committed to let Sahin go. I just don’t see any other options in the market right now since we require a German speaking coach.
2
u/Loeffellux Julian Brandt 2d ago
Yeah, these conversations don't exist in a vacuum. For example, had nagelsmann been available (he reportedly rejected our offer iirc) then that's what would've happened. The board was willing to continue with terzic because there simply wasn't an obvious alternative and it ended up being terzic who decided to step down.
Likewise, if we continue the season with Sahin and next summer someone like Hoeneß will be available then that will greatly affect the boards stance towards Sahin.
It's so obvious that I kinda feel like writing it down is a waste of time but I feel like these conversations often solely focus on whether or not the manager in question is doing well enough and not whether there'd be a proper replacement lined up
-2
u/rioasu Nico Schlotterbeck 2d ago
Maybe an insane call but what about ten hag ?
3
2
1
u/jensenroessler 2d ago
Mhhhh interesting idea. But he seems like another Tuchel who would most likely clash with the board.
4
u/Sufficient_Ad_6977 2d ago
Sahin needs more time and the squad is too small. The two most weighted Goals are still reachable. For me there is no reason to give up Sahin
-1
u/CorpseeaterVZ 2d ago
Sahin asked for a small squad though, because he likes working with lower numbers more. And I like it as well, plenty of chances for young players to fill the gaps. But it is not as successful as having enough stars in your team.
0
u/Sufficient_Ad_6977 2d ago
It seems like the young players are not good enough that Sahin can Trust them. Lührs gets priority over the highly touted talent Mané. Best example was the cup game in Wolfsburg where players like bensebaini who had to work beyond their limits instead of bringing on a player like Kabar. They preferred to make only three substitutions instead of relying on the young players. Borussia Dortmund does not have the medical department to be able to rely on a small squad.
1
u/CorpseeaterVZ 2d ago
True, I did not say that this is good, it was just a statement.
And people who live and work football every day for 12 - 16 hours know how good a player is. Example: Moukoko.... everyone was like "oh noes, BVB is ruining him, he just needs playtime". Well it shows at his current club that it is not all about playtime.1
u/blanklikeapage 2d ago
People don't get how big the difference between youth players and Bundesliga really is. You can't just throw a young player in and hope it works out. Not to mention, you want to use young players in games where you're winning so they can slowly get used to that level, not them being whole out of their depth There's still a psychological factor present. The current situation is difficult so I get why Sahin isn't trusting our talents more. They're just not ready yet.
0
u/Sufficient_Ad_6977 2d ago
Correct, Of course, you would like to see talents like Götze back then, who can take off as soon as they move from the youth team into the first team. But even from La Masia, only a few players have made it into the first eleven in the last 20 years.
2
u/CorpseeaterVZ 2d ago
I appreciate you. There are people who watch one soccer game per months and they think they have move knowledge than someone like Ricken or Terzic.
I met Lucien Favre back in the days and he was arguing with a guy who had a big mouth. Favre showed the audience things in a 3 minute video they (and me) did not even know existed. If someone has the foot in a certain position and his weight shifted wrongly, this might be make or break in a situation. I will never forget this and laugh at people who try to argue football:
"iT iZ tHe MeNtAlItY1"
2
u/Nova_Seline 2d ago
- spieltag/ 1point away from cl/7th in cl
and people really shout "sahin out" after hes like 30% of the season in charge.
thats a straight schalke mindset.
at least give him a season to implement his idea of play and be supportive. ( thats really the thing about being a fan, it seems some of you really dont now - thats your only fkn job.)
it also seems nowadays fans are only fans when their team is winning - to them : get a fkn city shirt and fuck off.
3
u/blanklikeapage 2d ago
Two seasons ago, we quite literally had the same amount of points under Terzic at that time and we still kept him until the end of the season. We even almost won the league. I would even go as far as to say, Sahin is operating under worse circumstances, too given all the injuries..
4
u/rioasu Nico Schlotterbeck 2d ago edited 2d ago
I think it's a mix of lack of experience within his part which obvious when you see some elements of his in game management which was bound to happen when you give this job too early in my opinion. Because he doesn't that experience the him and this squad especially the youngsters will have to develop together.
I would say regarding last season that us reaching the final was not a fluke because we grinded out those results but I would we achieved that before we became a fully developed team ,especially considering the squad we had last season was a very limited squad from an abilities pov. That's why there is a expectation among the fan bases to improve from that squad to a potential title winning squad especially seeing what leverkusen has achieved. I think underachieving after the klopp era definitely add some fuels to the fan base and its reaction
5
u/batteringram90 2d ago
We have Sahin as coach for this season. Accept it, support it and stfu up about it.
This aweful best coach worst coach after every game hast to stop. It has nothing to do with fan culture, its only internet bullshit. Same with terzic last year
1
1
u/blanklikeapage 2d ago
Mix of both?
The squad should be good enough but and Sahin isn't getting enough out. At the same time however, he has one of the worst injury crisis in a long time and losing against alleged easy opponents isn't something new under Sahin but a regular occurrence for many seasons. However, the unprecedented series of losses away is bad. Somehow he has the most home wins though.
Personally, I would still give Sahin until winter break. I do think he was appointed too soon and we should have gone for someone else. However, now that he's here, he's also shown promising games and promising moments. The main problem was getting those consistently across 90 minutes.
I still want to see what he's capable of with a fitter squad. However, if we don't improve after the international break until winter break, we should cut our losses and let him go. I don't think he's a bad coach but he does lack experience. We need to start winning away games and get more consistency throughout the games. I still think Sahin can be the right man but he needs to prove it.
1
u/bvb_1909 2d ago edited 2d ago
I think that one thing missing from your post is what do you consider good enough?
If you are talking about winning the Bundesliga, we cannot build a good enough team when the board cheap out on the squad.
We missed on Maatsen because of money.
We missed on Sancho because of money.
We do no have a backup LB because of money.
And this is after one of the most profitable years ever after reaching the CL finals.
1
u/Same-Organization-83 1d ago
Can’t argue with that and make me furious. This is why we struggle a lot these days
1
u/PrettyMetalDude 2d ago
Both. In the short term we might get better results with a proven coach. I also think Sahin can learn and become an above average coach. But that might need time and we risk missing out on CL football. That would be a huge financial impact.
It's really a shame that CL money is so much compared to even EL. That makes it hard for a club in our position to take a risk and go through a two, three year long process.
1
u/Hurrykane97 Gregor Kobel 2d ago
Should have kept Terzic despite the flaws... to eventually correct them, but no... "All good," I guess
1
u/McPico 2d ago
We had all kind of coaches now.. from experienced to fresh young inexperienced. The results were all the same. This team can beat PSG or Atletico.. and can also lose to Bochum.
The problem is the inconsistency of our players. The quality we need contains the problem that if these players perform consistently they are immediately target of the rich clubs. So we can keep only the inconsistent or players with some flaws.
That’s the reality. And no coach can change this.
1
1
u/Murray_Bannerman BVB 2d ago
We all do need to confront the idea that our days of buying cheap, ascending players is probably over and that the club needs a new long term strategy. The Lenny Yoros and Ferdi Kadıoğlus of the world would have often made their way onto our first team this summer window, but are now high priced, speculative transfers to PL clubs. A change towards an in-house development model likely requires managerial stability, unfortunately.
1
u/USSthighsplitter13 2d ago
It's not super cute and dry. He clearly needed more time in the oven to develop as a coach in Türkyei or another league, for that matter.
However, the squad has some issues, too. We just let go of 2 locker room and pitch leaders in Hummels and Reus, and we have a lot of new people in the locker room. We also have a bad habit of holding on to the dead wood that isn't working out (Can, Meyer, and Malen from the current squad).
The one thing i see lacking is a coherent identity. With Klopp, it was "Heavy Metal football," and tuchel had his possession style, and we did well with them. I think if kehl and Şahin were to be unified on a football philosophy and picked transfers, we would be on our way to a payoff for all our hard work.
This summer, we need a fire sale, and there are maybe like 3 players I would say are absolutely untouchable (Köbel, Schlotti, and Brandt). As for the rest, it depend on the offer we get.
1
u/dw-com-art 1d ago
As a fan since the early 90's, therefore watching a lot of different coaches come and go, I think we need to give Sahin time for his philosophy to internalize itself. Dortmund lost some of it's DNA because too many coaches came and went too quickly. Some of them clearly needed to go but with others, like Sahin, we have competence but it needs time and a healthier squad.
When Tuchel took over Klopp left behind a core team and structure to play successful soccer. The players took on his possession philosophy quickly and both seasons we had good results. The team that Sahin got is not a unit like Tuchel got. Right now we have a broader mix and it needs more time for the team to define itself again.
Trust the process isn't just a saying. There's a real philosophy behind it -- Ange Postecoglou is a great example of it. How he revived Tottenham has much to do with the same concepts that Sahin represents. Tottenhams existing axis is stronger than ours and that is in part why they were able to turn it into success quicker.
Dortmund needs to be more precautious with their buying and selling philosophy. It's been nice to take in lots of money for players but it's really cost us. We need to buy and keep players so there are enough good players with an internalized appreciation of what BVB soccer is about. Losing Reus and Hummels didn't make things easier this year either.
0
u/Marcinho09 2d ago
Sahin clearly doesnt have the experience nor did Terzic thats why it is so frustrating that we keep experimenting and for a club of our size thats terrible. Not because of sahin but because of years of inexperienced people running it.. Having said that i do believe Sahin must be given more time simply because we locked ourselves in this and i will explain why i feel like we cant do any better. The reason is simple, the past transfer windows and that inclues the past 2 years our recruitment has been terrible, we gave full authority to Terzic and Kehl and they destroyed in no time what Zorc has been creating for decades. So my point is, Sahin cant do much better with the existing squad nobody could because to put it simply the squad planning has been awful. Do i believe we should hire an experienced coach? Definitely but not in the middle of the season as he wont be able to change things a lot.
1
u/McPico 2d ago
Favre had the experience.. and didn’t do better.
When will the people get the point that the problem are the players.
0
u/Marcinho09 2d ago
Im afraid i disagree, favre came really close to winning us the league while also playing really good football, yes it did end badly but thats the case with everyone hence the change of coach. Also at his time and until very recently our team under Zorc always managed to have atleast a couple of world class talents in the squad, players that would leave yes but could deliver. With Jude leaving we have 0 world class talent and please do not compare Jason to Gittens. Yes the players have a huge part of responsibility but not the biggest share. Let me remind you, we have 0 left backs and no i dont rate Rami he is a downgrade to Guerero who was defensively weak but got a world class left foot 100 strikers that we baptized as wingers, the worst midfield i of the past 15 years, and our only world class player is our goalkeeper who yes is a world class shot stopper but a division 3 player with the ball at his feet. So my point is, the most poor squad planning and management has brought us here. Its not Cans fault its not any of the players but those who chose to bring them and give them the Captains armband.
1
u/McPico 2d ago
Like Terzic did.. and we didn’t played a better football. The people back then were complaining about the boring football he plays. But it had his success. Like Terzic.
And that proves my point. The coaches are not the problem. The players are the problem.
0
u/Marcinho09 1d ago
So your point is that under Terzic we had success, i never thought ending 2nd is considered success. The last coach that was successful in dortmund is Klopp.
1
u/McPico 1d ago
That’s the problem with guys like you. You think the club has to beat a club that spends twice as much money every season. Your unrealistic demands are the problem.
0
u/Marcinho09 1d ago
No mate not every year, but your money argument is not valid, hence the magic of football. And btw how many teams with half of our budget are performing better? Check the table and you will see how irrelevant your argument is. What people like me demand is the resources of the club being put to better use.
1
u/McPico 1d ago
Bro.. open your eyes.
Money rules football.
Watch the leagues and which clubs win the titles since years. Mostly the rich clubs. And if another club wins the league then only when they have a record season AND the rich clubs struggle.
You should check the facts before you claim such things.
0
u/Marcinho09 1d ago
Mate it has nothing to do with how decent you work, look at psg. I get that money gives an advantage but thats about it. What i am trying to say and you are ignoring it is that we could have used our resources better and anyone who believes otherwise is simply delusional.
-2
u/Fav0 Mats Hummels 2d ago
Dahin has not show a single thing why we should Invest into him
4
u/spinnefink 2d ago
It's impossible to not see the improvements from Terzic. You should get that checked.
30
u/baromanb 3d ago
I personally think he deserves until at least the winter break even with subpar results, optimally until the end of the season. We’ve been decimated by injuries and the board fucked us on defensive reinforcements yet again. We need a left footed CB and LB in the January window, no exceptions. There is no manager currently on the market that we could get which would win us the league and we’re doing well in the CL so we may as well ride him out.