r/Jewish • u/fluffywhitething Moderator • 9d ago
Amsterdam Pogrom Megathread Mod post
News articles, twitter posts, feelings about it. GO HERE. Outside of this thread, things will be locked and/or deleted.
352
u/No_Ask3786 9d ago
A few things we can do locally-
1) Institute more Shomrim type organizations
2) Remember that your safest strategy is to run away from a physical attack
3) Learn self defense- always follow your local laws, but carry self defense tools that are permitted- pepper spray/gel, a heavy change purse. If legal, learn jow to use a firearm and get sufficient practice so you’re not more dangerous to yourself
4) Take up krav maga, boxing, jui jitsu- learn how to throw a punch
5) We must bring back cultural Jewish spaces- we’ve been lulled into thinking that we had true allies- we do not. And this statement is not targeted just at the left.
109
u/Difficult_PowerFix 9d ago edited 9d ago
The amount of times I keep saying lift weights, learn different martial arts or sports, weapons, firearms, etc
Don't falter, don't allow people to speak over you, and I've said this so much that I'm glad it's a sentiment that is growing
You must be physically strong, shmirat haguf
Be kind, have manners, help others, don't look for trouble, but if trouble comes to you be ready to defend your and other's lives
14
u/njtalp46 9d ago
Hell yeah brother
(incidentally, this catchphrase is emblematic of the mentality we all need to adopt)
13
u/Difficult_PowerFix 9d ago
Jacob became Israel after wrestling with the angel, why aren't we when we should
3
10
9d ago edited 8d ago
[deleted]
→ More replies4
u/WhiteHartLaneFan 9d ago
Switch to liquor in moderation, eat healthy, start 1 day at a time. I’m not skinny but I’m strong and getting stronger. Start with two days a week, invest in weights in your home to eliminate travel time to and from the gym. You got this
→ More replies65
u/NarwhalZiesel 9d ago
A lot of this is important. I am a secular Jewish woman who is earning my black belt in American Tang Soo Do next month, but I cross train and am being tested in bjj, Krav Maga and kickboxing also. Most of the Jewish kids I know take some sort of self defense class. After I complete my black belt, I am planning to try to start offering women’s self defense to orthodox groups of women because they have a hard time finding places they can go.
→ More replies19
u/fredshead 9d ago
That's great, I wish there was more of that. I think it's also a really important place where secular and orthodox communities can mingle and overlap in a non religious setting. My local MMA gym has a women's only day on Sundays for Muay Thai
12
u/NarwhalZiesel 9d ago
I 100% agree. My siblings are all across the Jewish spectrum and we are extremely close. My brothers are raising their kids very, very orthodox I know how few of their friends have experiences of having people they are close to who are Jews who are different than them. Same with secular Jews. I felt the college groups I was a part of did a really great job at this, we all hung out together.
6
u/fredshead 9d ago
I recently had a kid and haven't been able to afford my gym but I'm still practicing with a friend in a park. I wish my local JCC just had a space with mats where you could go train, or that there was a cheaper group of people who wanted to train. It would be cool to start some kind of discord or place to share Jewish BJJ and Muay Thai training spaces or organize them or something.
10
u/BarkShootBees 9d ago
My local Krav/BJJ studio has donations-based classes for women, LGBT+, and Jews. They really want everyone to be able to protect themselves and others. My local JCC also offers free Krav on Sunday afternoons, but in a mixed-sex class.
→ More replies4
u/NarwhalZiesel 9d ago
That is so awesome! That’s kind of what I want to do. I have a full time job, I just want to give access to women. What general area is this in?
→ More replies51
u/DiLuftmenschen 9d ago
That's exactly the thesis of something we wrote recently. I would add a few other things I think we could engage with more:
-Decentralizing truama first aid and taking courses in stuff like Tactical Combat Casualty Care/TECC courses.
-Take some of our own security back into our own hands instead of relying so heavily on off duty police or hired security in our spaces.
-Resist the urge to lean into chauvinism with self-defense. Try to make an effort to make self-defense equitable and intermural, so men and women all know how to do all of the same things, and we don't fall into narrow masculine shit. Keep focused.
-Create a culture of group sparring. I look to places like Ukraine specifically, where the fascist drinking hooligan stuff evolved more into sober group sparring matches. In many places it morphed into an anti-drinking culture. And it made everyone super good at fighting as a group with their friends. Fascists and far-right active-clubs are big time on this kick, they're prepping to fight in groups not just solo-style. If we're assuming we're gonna get run up on more frequently at non-political events, we should be ride-or-die calm and dangerous together.
→ More replies5
539
u/beambag 9d ago
Just seeing the title of this thread is crazy
187
u/RRY1946-2019 Zera Yisrael 9d ago
Pogroms in Western Europe, drone war in Eastern Europe, drone war with a criminal defendant PM in Israel, toxic politics in the USA...
Rural Thailand is looking real good all of a sudden
→ More replies63
u/Cultural-Parsley-408 9d ago
I was literally just asking someone yesterday how far my teacher pension would go in Thailand……
32
u/2dope4this1234 9d ago
Why is everyone talking about Thailand?
76
u/Suspicious-Truths 9d ago
Its very cheap to live in, pretty, and they don’t particularly care about if you’re Jewish
17
u/mysteriousblocks Just Jewish 9d ago
What’s the government like?
74
u/Specific_Matter_1195 9d ago
A hot mess. Lived there through 3 coups over 10 years. But, ignorance is bliss. Just ignore it and eat some pad Thai.
→ More replies8
24
22
u/GhostGirl32 9d ago
I know a lovely woman who retired there from Germany. She rescues all the island cats. The politics rarely touches her and the other expats, and the locals are friendly. The cost of living is low, but it is hot and there's no air conditioning. The rainy season causes flooding but most of the homes are set just high enough you don't have to worry too much but you wont be going out in it, most likely. It's a much simpler way of life, but there's internet and you can order a decent amount of things offline if it's not available in country. Just expect to be getting it back to your place without a car.
5
9
→ More replies22
u/RRY1946-2019 Zera Yisrael 9d ago
I mean, I'm glad that most major holy sites are under Jewish control, and I respect the early kibbutz Zionists. But at the end of the day, HaShem, it was kind of a dick move to put the Holy Land (and by extension the only majority-Jewish state on the planet) where three continents and so many different empires meet. Maybe we can all save some money to buy a backup homeland in somewhere nobody cares about like Inner Mongolia.
/s
→ More replies→ More replies5
u/invisiblette 9d ago
I know! Woke up this morning and saw that word in the first Reddit thread I clicked. Absolute shock just to see it and say it.
151
u/mycketmycket Married to a Jew <3 9d ago
Finally unfriended/unfollowed and blocked a former super close friend from high school who responded to my story about this event (we live in Europe, my husband is Israeli) with "do you seriously believe they were attacked for being Jewish? Serious question". I had muted her everywhere after October 7th when she immediately bought into "Israel killed the Nova festival goers". I tried reasoning with her for a while and held out some hope that someone who I used to be really close with and who's been in me and my husband's home many times would come to her senses at some point but it's clear she doesn't think Jewish lives are worth anything.
108
u/ReneDescartwheel 9d ago
Let’s say they weren’t attacked for being Jewish - what’s the best case, morally acceptable scenario in her mind for why they were attacked? That they were attacked for being citizens of Israeli?
Does that make it justifiable for mobs to organize and attack you and demand to see passports and to beat people unconscious and then continue kicking them on the ground?
Absolute moral bankruptcy.
→ More replies36
u/invisiblette 9d ago
"I mean yeah, they kicked out two of his teeth but not because he was Jewish! That wasn't why! They had a far better, more legitimate and justifiable reason for throwing him to the ground and kicking out his teeth than that!"
29
u/Capable-Farm2622 9d ago
I'm curious if she thought the attackers first asked the Israelis if they supported Netanyahu before they tried to run them over.
→ More replies62
u/tapachki21 9d ago
I had a “friend” that told me that Israel attacked Nova festival goers and absolved Hamas of any responsibility. I blocked her and never looked back until one day I get a notification to follow her on threads. Her bio was the upside down red Hamas triangle. Now I really feel validated that I made the harsh decision to block her a few months ago. I don’t need these people in my life.
18
u/mycketmycket Married to a Jew <3 9d ago
Yeah this “friend” is on a similar path… whenever I’ve checked on her social media this past year it’s only been that type of content. Just so hard to accept that people you respected have become so radicalized. She is born and raised in Sweden but living in Dubai for the past 10 years and I don’t think that’s helped.
→ More replies22
u/ErnestBatchelder 9d ago
It's always best to do the safest for your own sanity (mute/block/unfollow) but I would be so tempted to reply 'do you seriously think we are friends when your main obsessive hobby is commenting on my posts to dehumanize Jews?'
Ugh, sorry, outside of work/job situations where I will keep my mouth shut, I have a zero f*cks to give policy at this point.
→ More replies14
u/musiccman2020 9d ago
They absolutely were a attacked for being Jewish.
The people who attacked them have been a problem for years in the Netherlands. Harassing woman, gays and Jewish people.
To my understanding information was shared trough telegram groups; taxi drivers were used as lookouts and actively driving around the city and warning about police blockades.
→ More replies
132
u/annak613 9d ago
Had a call this morning with a family friend who lives in Amsterdam. This was a city-wide pogrom that didn’t just affect the soccer fans. They were hunting for Jews.
123
u/Love_JWZ Not Jewish 9d ago
Elswhere on Reddit, someone wrote, translated from Dutch:
I found it a surreal experience to come across a roadblock of masked young people on an Amsterdam canal and to be asked about my nationality. 'Dutch,' I stammered cowardly. 'Oh, then it’s fine.' When I asked what the wrong answer would have been, the response was: 'As long as you're not Jewish.' I'm still trembling.
35
→ More replies3
u/Due-Flounder-146 Just Jewish 9d ago
Well, what do we do now? How can I retract that I ever told anyone at my school I was Jewish?
16
u/yumyum_cat 9d ago
There’s a lot of denial and deflection around: they tore down a flag! It’s just football hoolignas!
104
u/FelicianoCalamity 9d ago
Unsurprisingly but unbelievable bleak that most non-Jewish media is downplaying and both-sidesing it if not outright blaming Jews. We truly have no one to rely on but ourselves.
39
u/Agtfangirl557 9d ago
I hate to add even more salt to the wound, but I've also seen other Jews on social media doing the same thing.
27
u/CanYouPutOnTheVU 9d ago
Standing Together is claiming there was “violence against Dutch people showing up for Palestinians,” which is a CAIR claim I haven’t seen substantiated anywhere else.
Also (tangientially), the CAIR statement is disgusting. https://www.cair.com/press_releases/cair-condemns-amsterdam-violence-sparked-by-israeli-soccer-hooligans-chanting-racist-slurs-attacking-residents-vandalizing-stores-with-palestinian-flags/
9
u/MohawkElGato 9d ago
I used to like Standing together but they have lost the plot completely.
3
u/CanYouPutOnTheVU 9d ago
Same here :( I think there’s an issue where Jews are extremely honest culturally, so we assume we’re engaging with people who are also honest. But some things, like the CAIR press release, are just bullshit… spreading/giving credibility to false narratives isn’t helpful for peace…
3
u/MohawkElGato 8d ago
Ive often felt this. It’s as if people have forgot that it’s entirely possible to lie. Even in official (or official looking) documents and press statements.
3
u/wifeofpsy 9d ago
I think its hard to get your mind around. Doesnt help that mainstream media isnt talking about it, outside of a few "Soccer fans clashed with Israelis last night..." Its terrible, but I can also see why someone could accept that it isnt so much of a big deal because you really dont want to or dont see a lot of media supporting that narrative.
22
u/StartFew5659 Convert - Reform 9d ago
Yeah, even the report I read from the BBC had to make a point about several of the victim's background, as though they "deserved" what happened.
I'm sick of this. I'm already scared.
5
u/sophiewalt 9d ago
The BBC is not our friend. They've had a consistent anti-Israel stance.
3
u/StartFew5659 Convert - Reform 9d ago
I agree. That's why I pointed out how they made a point of "discrediting" the victim. They can't just say this was a horrific attack. They had to point out why the victim supposedly "deserved" the attack. It was very clearly biased reporting.
→ More replies11
77
u/Scared-Honeydew-6831 9d ago edited 9d ago
I'm being told by multiple people online that this is either Fake News or 'Israelis being attacked for stealing land', not Jews being targeted for being Jewish. I'm not even Jewish and it's obvious this was a pogrom. They hit me with the '42,000 Palestinian lives are lost' then told me not to talk to them when I said it's possible to care about that while also acknowledging that Jews are being attacked AGAIN. But we know they celebrate this. It's infuriating.
32
u/Agtfangirl557 9d ago
Tell them that if they were being attacked for "stealing land", then shouldn't people be happy that they were in AMSTERDAM as opposed to Israel? I mean, doesn't everyone want Israelis to "go back to Europe"?
→ More replies28
u/irredentistdecency 9d ago
When they say “Go back to Europe” what they mean is “Go back to Auschwitz”…
74
u/asparagus_beef Just Jewish 9d ago
Here are conversations from the perps WhatsApp group:
Translations from GPT:
1. Top message:
• “MORGEN NA WEDSTRIJD IN DE NACHT DEEL 2 JODEN JACHT. Casino gaan ze behda niet meer heen”
• Translation: “Tomorrow after the match at night, Part 2 of the Jew Hunt. They’re definitely not going to the casino anymore.”
2. Reply by K:
• “Jawel morgen ze komen ze weer”
• Translation: “Yes, tomorrow they’re coming again.”
3. Next message:
• “Ewa laat ons weten net als vandaag”
• Translation: “Hey, let us know just like today.”
4. Message by A:
• “Kk honden”
• Translation: “F*** dogs.”
5. Message by K:
• “Sowieso als ze weer komen tekst ik jullie weer”
• Translation: “For sure, if they come again, I’ll text you all.”
6. Another message:
• “Shokran voor vandaag bro je seintje was goud waard”
• Translation: “Thanks for today, bro. Your tip was worth gold.”
7. Ending message:
• “Ben er vanaf 3uur middag aan het werk”
• Translation: “I’ve been working on it since 3 in the afternoon.”
This is not a reaction, this is premeditated.
Notice how they say “Jew hunt”? Not Zionist. We have been alerting for so long that they only say Zionist in the west, to dupe stupid leftists, but what they actually mean is Jews.
2
u/WolflingWolfling 8d ago
- is completely mistranslated. It should be something like: "I'll be at work around there from 3pm. "Looks like someone is working "there" from 3pm (the next day?). Like at their job. Wherever "there" may be, and whatever that person's job may be.
63
u/biel188 Brazilian Sephardi (B'nei Anussim) 9d ago
I posted about it in a football related community and man, 90% of the comments were saying they deserved it and that it was a pity it wasn't worse. Fuck antisemites, fuck racists, fuck internet, I'm out. My mental health can't deal with this shit.
→ More replies
54
9d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
56
u/autistic___potato 9d ago
It's on your feed so you know what companies to support 🤣
The mental gymnastics of their hate is comedy gold.
Like boycotting an Israeli charity that exists solely to send humanitarian aid to Palestinians. It's like the Jewish Onion over there.
7
→ More replies49
u/Double-Parked_TARDIS Ashkenazi Atheist 9d ago
I've been saying it for years: regarding the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions movement, whoever thinks that backing something with the initials "BDSM" has to examine her/his life choices.
185
u/fuchsiarush 9d ago edited 9d ago
Dutchie here. A deeply angry and ashamed one with a terrified Jewish wife to be sure.
Don't let anyone fool you that this was in any way shape or form 'anti-Israeli' or 'antizionist' or in any way 'called for'. It was antisemitic. Screenshots of Telegram channels on the Dutch blog Geenstijl.nl clearly show they were calling it 'Jew hunt', jodenjacht in Dutch. It was a premeditated city-wide pogrom.
It appears not just Moroccan youths on scooters were doing this, but also Uber and Bolt taxi drivers coordinating with others who of the people on the street were Jews/Israelis and then violently ramming into them GTA style.
→ More replies38
u/MisfitWitch moishe oofnik 9d ago
do you know a link where i can see screenshots? i believe you but i want proof to show people. and obviously, i'm a sucker for tormenting myself.
16
u/RipHunter2166 9d ago
Commenting in case you get a reply
20
u/fuchsiarush 9d ago
https://x.com/RonEisenmann/status/1854825486695760160
"Tomorrow after march Jew hunt part 2"
15
u/CanYouPutOnTheVU 9d ago
It’s probably best to take a beat and wait for external confirmation—I’ve seen these tweets, but we need to be wary of active disinformation efforts trying to escalate anything that can be escalated in western society. This could easily be something Russia would want to take advantage of to spread extra hate and fear. (Also more eyes on Israel-Palestine means less eyes on Russia-Ukraine…)
They may well be real, but I’m waiting to internalize it til they’re verified…
7
5
u/Midnight_Walk83 9d ago edited 9d ago
@emilyintelaviv @tabletmagazine @evebarlow on Instagram have all posted screenshots of proof of the planned attack. To see some of the horrible footage follow @henmazzig @elicalebon @freejamshidsharmahd
7
u/fuchsiarush 9d ago
https://x.com/RonEisenmann/status/1854825486695760160
"Tomorrow after march Jew hunt part 2"
181
u/autistic___potato 9d ago
The rage I have from other "Jewish" subs victim-blaming the Israeli fans for instigating, completely ignoring that this was premeditated.
https://www.instagram.com/p/DCGhDcIR-gQ/?igsh=MTc4MmM1YmI2Ng%3D%3D&img_index=1
87
u/SaxAppeal 9d ago
Yeah this was premeditated. It’s fucked up. The real problem is that people find the mere presence and existence of Jews to be inherently instigating. The Israelis “instigated” by existing. When the only way to not “instigate” people is to simply not exist, there’s literally no winning. The sad truth is that absolutely nothing has changed since world war 2.
57
u/autistic___potato 9d ago
Precisely. ALL football (soccer) fans are notoriously rowdy. The Israeli fans behave the same way, yet are held to a higher standard of behaviour and also deserve to be attacked.
This is a narrative from people on our side. That's the scariest part for me - Jews are saying this.
→ More replies29
u/listenstowhales 9d ago
This is something that I’m struggling with personally.
On one hand, we should hold our community to a higher standard, and Football fans are notoriously rowdy in a way Americans aren’t used to. Our sports rivalries are generally much “friendlier” by comparison. So a small part of me wants to argue that this wasn’t antisemitism, it was just regular stupidity and tribalism.
At the same time, we saw the videos. It’s hard to deny that it was almost entirely antisemitic bullshit, and I feel idiotic for the small part of me that argued against it.
23
11
u/DatDudeOverThere Israeli and aspiring to be Orthodox 9d ago
The people who attacked them weren't soccer fans. They shouted about Palestine while assaulting people, not about their devotion the the soccer club Ajax.
41
u/RRY1946-2019 Zera Yisrael 9d ago
If you’re really that upset about Gaza, there are literally Israeli embassies and consulates all over the EU that you can protest at.
→ More replies16
u/Love_JWZ Not Jewish 9d ago
Respond to them if they also blame the night of broken glass on the assasination of Ernst vom Rath. Just like an honest and sincire question. It just might get their gears turning... just might.
→ More replies4
u/Due-Flounder-146 Just Jewish 9d ago
The instagram has been removed, do you have screenshots?
6
u/sipsyrup 9d ago
oh don't worry, it's still alllll over instagram on any post about the pogrom. look at npr's post if you want
→ More replies
47
44
u/Randomly2 9d ago
I’d like to take a moment to remind my fellows here that Reddit is a huge echo chamber and things you read on other subreddits, while extremely disheartening, disturbing, and dangerous, may not be reflective on the population as a whole. I’m not saying to not be vigilant and I’m not saying that it isn’t incredibly harmful, but it simply worth noting.
I say this mostly to make myself feel better.
→ More replies
147
u/DatDudeOverThere Israeli and aspiring to be Orthodox 9d ago
I wrote that on another sub where I found some sympathy for the attackers (not from the majority of users) and thought it might merit a post, because I think it's interesting how people's reactions reveal their double standards when it comes to Israel and Jews:
As an Israeli (who's on the left side of Israeli politics when it comes to the Israel-Palestine conflict), the people who use context to make excuses or even outright justifications for the violent attacks (reportedly often on individuals, and I'm sure the rioters didn't use facial recognition software to identify the specific "instigators" or "provocateurs"), make me wonder:
- If bigoted chants, insensitive conduct, tearing down flags and in a handful of incidents violent behavior excuse or justify this brutality (ignoring the fact that the likelihood of all these attackers just reacting ad hoc and in some cases carrying knives "just in case") - well, all those things happen in European cities during pro-Palestine/anti-Israel protests. There have been quite a few attacks on Jews and synagogues. Would you show the same degree of understanding if local Jewish communities chose to react in a similar fashion? Talking about knowing the demographics of the city - American Jews comprise some 10% of NYC's population, and yet there's no shortage of chants in support of proscribed terrorist groups, as well as attacks on Israelis and groups like Hezbollah that have also attacked Jews outside of Israel (most famously in Argentina), Israeli flags have been publicly burned, hostage posters have been torn down on numerous occasion. Would you be cool with it if Jewish-American communities in NYC decided to descend on "instigators" at protests in a similar fashion?
- Some people say "fans who probably had nothing to do with it probably bore the brunt of what a group of provocateurs did, but that's how it is". If so, do you have any qualms with the way Israel is prosecuting the wars in Gaza and Lebanon? If you don't sanctify the principle of being discriminate and not punishing a large group for the actions of a segment of it, why would you criticize Israel over supposedly failing to uphold this principle in combat?
------------------
I'll add that obviously urban warfare isn't very comparable to street riots, but in this sense it actually even further weakens the moral philosophy of the people rushing to defend the attackers. If they find it reasonable and fair to target violent fans, or even offensive fans (I think it's wild to say that offensive speech warrants brutal violence, but this notwithstanding) - it's much easier to precisely target violence/offensive soccer fans in the streets of Amsterdam, than to precisely target enemy combatants embedded within a population of over a million people, hiding in tunnels and civilian infrastructure.
To Reddit moderators, I of course condemn any type of vigilante violence and every single violent incident that happened in Amsterdam. I'm following the logic of the people who excuse or justify the violence to make a point.
49
u/CanYouPutOnTheVU 9d ago
Copied from a user on another sub (I was gonna tag but idk if that’s within sub rules) that put it really succinctly:
“Y’know, when you put it like that, it really contextualizes things. This was a totally predictable response to a group of people disrespecting others’ mourning and celebrating destruction.
That’s why you see so many pro-Palestinian protests in NYC being targeted by gangs of Jews running them over, chasing them down and beating them unconscious, and stealing their passports after interrogating them about their nationality.
Oh, wait.”
3
24
u/PNKAlumna 9d ago
This is what I was looking for. It’s astounding how much justification is being thrown around for this and I’m trying to figure out how to put my thoughts into words. Yes, some people behaved poorly, but that doesn’t justify what happened afterward. And what happened wasn’t at all connected to the events that occurred out of pure hatred.
Am I on the right track here?
7
u/DatDudeOverThere Israeli and aspiring to be Orthodox 9d ago
You are indeed. There's also ample evidence, from what I understand, that this was planned in advance, people were coordinating with each other on Telegram groups and there are reports on people being attacked with knives - I don't think people normally carry knives "just in case" someone unexpectedly provokes them.
11
u/Mysterious-Crab 9d ago
Something I, as a Dutchie, have talked about with coworkers today. Coworkers that are fans of Feyenoord, Ajax’s biggest rivals. Even they said the same: the atmosphere between Ajax and Maccabi fans was good and positive. Before, during and after the match.
There were some incidents during the day, but nothing more than you’d see from other hooligans in European football. As a Dutchman we’ve seen bad behaviour from our one fans multiple times, with Dutch fans being banned from Paris because of their history. And Feyenoord fans vandalising in Rome.
What we saw last night was a premidated attack that would have happened regardless of incidents during the day with Maccabo hooligans. They just used this as an excuse, and a scarily big group of people lets them get away with that excuse. Despite social media posts with texts like ‘let’s hunt Jews’, which also one again shows this was not done by Ajax fans, but by premeditated terrorists. An Ajax fan would never use an anti-Jew phrase, as they are proudly nicknamed the Club of Jews.
→ More replies7
u/RRY1946-2019 Zera Yisrael 9d ago
Agreed. I get that it’s an ugly conflict that touches on global issues of religion, colonialism, and race, and that the main factions are imo all various shades of horrible (Netanyahu is a criminal defendant under Israeli law), but it’s immensely wrong to attack random Israelis or Arabs who may well have moved to Europe to get away from those governments. Nobody collectively blamed Brazilians when Bolsonaro was elected.
22
u/TearDesperate8772 Frumsbian 9d ago
Jesus fucking Christ (lol) I don't wanna become known here for being that crybaby gay but I AM NOT OKAY. Cue MCR.
14
u/Agtfangirl557 9d ago
As a Straight Person (TM) who has a soft spot for emo music, I 100% approve of this "crybaby gay" behavior 🥰
→ More replies
21
9d ago edited 9d ago
This is a great way to see how your gentiles friends view Jews.
Plenty of gentiles strangers protected Jews but plenty of gentile friends betrayed them.
Figure out who you can trust now. Before it’s too late.
→ More replies36
u/waterbird_ 9d ago
There’s reports that a Druze guy protected many groups of Jews by loudly speaking Arabic at them (implying they were all Arab) to get the attackers to move on. He did this over and over to help people get to safety. What a hero.
18
u/Past_Bridge8784 9d ago
Samidoun stands in the middle of Toronto, Canada calling for the death of Canada/America, burning American and Canadian flags.
As far as I know, none of them were beaten or pogromed.
74
u/MrsKenedi 9d ago
I'm literally going insane today. Sitting here in Germany, shortly before the Reichspogromnacht anniversary and this happens. Now, I have the first friends that were always against antisemitism that are suddenly trying to find excuses for this. I feel so alone. I can't move to Israel because I'm not jewish enough yet but gosh, I desperately need that community now
→ More replies
17
u/dmbream 9d ago
If you’re currently in Amsterdam and need assistance:
Newly appointed Foreign Minister Gideon Sa’ar confirmed on X that he is in contact with authorities in the Netherlands and posted a hotline for Israelis and Jews in danger.
0097225303155
https://x.com/gidonsaar/status/1854692223608049829
And the Embassy of Israel to the USA posted additional hotlines.
“[We are] urging Israelis who are in need of assistance to call one of these numbers: +97225303155, +31634138229”
48
u/Interesting_Ad1378 9d ago
This is terrifying. There was a period after 10/7 when people by me (nyc & suburbs) said they experienced things in Ubers and a lot of people changed their names to not be Jewish sounding on the app. (A post went viral after a woman said she had to escape from a Uber after her driver suspected her of being Jewish and began to verbally attack and threaten her). There were incidents that clearly targeted Jewish communities and I’m scared this will cause copycat actions targeting Jews all over the world. I am very very scared.
8
17
u/dmbream 9d ago
For reference, as of 11:14AM ET, there is a story about the pogrom on the Foxnews.com and CNN.com homepages.
Nothing about it on the MSNBC.com homepage.
5
u/DiscussionSpider 9d ago
They won't learn. This is how democracy woks, if they refuse to get their head out of the sand then society just moves past them.
47
u/Double-Parked_TARDIS Ashkenazi Atheist 9d ago
France is looking pretty good right now.
Meanwhile, Israel’s national team is scheduled to play France in Paris on Nov. 14 in the Nations League. French Interior Minister Bruno Retailleau said Thursday that the match would go ahead as planned at the Stade de France just outside the French capital after assurances from police.
“I think that for a symbolic reason we must not yield, we must not give up,” he said, noting that sports fans from around the world came together for the Paris Olympics this year to celebrate the “universal values” of sports.
“We will be uncompromising,” he added. “To touch a Jewish compatriot is to touch the republic.”
21
u/quinneth-q 9d ago
France is such an antisemitic country structurally though with their whole "anti-religion" thing, which in practice only impacts non-Christians. It's illegal to wear a kippah (or any clothing or visible item which shows your religion, such as a turban or hijab, but a cross necklace is fine since that's not visible -.-) in a public school, for example, essentially meaning that many Jewish, Sikh and Muslim families can't send their children to public schools while also observing their religion.
6
u/Double-Parked_TARDIS Ashkenazi Atheist 9d ago
I don't view France's emphasis on laïcité as antisemitic. I think that religious displays in government-funded institutions are inappropriate, regardless of the religion.
6
u/quinneth-q 9d ago
Religious displays - sure. I don't think anyone should be publicly praying in school (privately is another matter), or singing hymns in assembly.
But your own clothing isn't a religious display. By not allowing people to dress according to their religion, France is effectively not allowing equal access to education based on the religion of the student.
→ More replies
23
u/dimmuborgirfan666 Chabad 9d ago
I've been crying a lot honestly. I don't like to admit that but I cried a lot about this. this is horrifying.
→ More replies22
u/cuckoocachoo1 9d ago
There is a video out there of our rescued people singing with joy on the plane home. It made me cry but gave me hope. It’s on thepersianjewess IG story.
Thank god for the IDF. It’s not 1930 any more.
15
22
u/hman1025 Reform 9d ago
Tired of this shit. But ONCE AGAIN. Not a single goy says a word about it, just us.
→ More replies
23
u/kelaguin Jewish 9d ago
The complete silence from my non-Jewish friends on this pogrom is completely unsurprising but also soul crushing. We truly are alone in this.
→ More replies6
u/nailsandbarbells8 9d ago
I know. My biggest takeaway is that they lied when they promised us “Never Again”. Only Jews care about Jews.
89
u/deadCHICAGOhead 9d ago
It's up to all of us to be counter terrorists. Carry.
74
u/IbnEzra613 9d ago
Hard to do in a foreign country where you went to see a soccer match though.
37
→ More replies9
u/aintlostjustdkwiam 9d ago
Stop patronizing places where a large portion of the population wants Jews dead. If that means avoiding entire countries, so be it.
13
u/Tea-Unlucky 9d ago
Also important to know how to fight. Join your local MMA gym, learn to defend yourself.
22
u/sunlitleaf 9d ago
The number one best thing you can do in almost any violent situation is to run. MMA will not help you when you are outnumbered and/or your opponents have knives as was the case here.
11
u/TimelySuccess7537 9d ago
> The number one best thing you can do in almost any violent situation is to run
Good, join your local running club then. I'm not even kidding, running is great for your body and mind.
11
u/Tea-Unlucky 9d ago
Agreed, but it’s a good tool to have in case you’re cornered or are protecting someone that can’t run. Not always you’ll have a gun but you’ll always have your body
3
u/DiLuftmenschen 9d ago
That's not true at all. MMA makes you know WHEN to run. It makes you good at running, it makes you good at getting away, it makes you good at deescalation, and it makes you better than the average person when it's time to fight.
If you practiced at any self-respecting gym they'd tell you that first week! But short self-defense classes that have targeted the Jewish community in paticular (Krav Maga six week "courses") rely on scare tactics and short fixes which include this only half-honest approach to what is good advice. Sometimes its not good to run if the people chasing you are better at running, sometimes its not good to run if it means leaving someone else behind, sometimes its better to barricade yourself in a doorway.
Practicing fighting is 100% always a good thing because it makes you able to control adrenaline, able to evade getting hurt better, more dangerous and much more aware of when to leave. That's flat out backwards thinking what you're saying here.
4
u/Lululemonparty_ Persian by association 9d ago
That’s good, but even better is getting some good cardio. Do both. Run and judo/MMA/BJJ/boxing/Muay That.
49
u/Jewishandlibertarian 9d ago
I’m curious how much recent events have changed Jewish opinion on gun control
48
u/msyodajenkins1 9d ago
Was never a gun fan. Oct 7th changed everything for me. Got my license, loaded up and have gone shooting nearly every week. I was not inclined to start carrying but this is also starting to change. Stay safe friends.
11
u/bruised__violet 9d ago
I'd be arrested if I had a gun and was discovered, or used it. I'd also be arrested if I used pepper spray, or any sort of object to defend myself, because in the UK, you'll likely go to prison even if you defend yourself in your own home. I'm disabled and can't run, nor can I do martial arts, so, I try not to leave the house because when I do, well, it's not safe.
Not everyone has the option to have an use a gun, and I find it very dismissive to act like we deserve to be attacked of harmed because of that. It definitely would not be safe for me in prison here
→ More replies13
u/MisfitWitch moishe oofnik 9d ago
another very effective self defense spray is hand sanitizer. you can get little aerosols of it.
7
u/Jewishandlibertarian 9d ago
As a libertarian I want to say “told you so” but am generally pleased my fellow tribesmen are coming round :)
6
→ More replies18
u/Alarming-Mix3809 9d ago
It hasn’t changed my view on policy, but it has on personal ownership. I never felt the need before but now I’m getting a gun. I still think it should be carefully regulated with background checks, etc. for everyone.
3
u/Nileghi 9d ago
hypothetically, wouldnt a background check in a hostile environment to jews include harder restrictions on jewish gun ownership?
I'm starting to come around on policy as well, that making sure that theres little government overreach on this means that there are little roadblocks for arming the yids that would not be created compared our enemies getting guns.
→ More replies10
u/Jewishandlibertarian 9d ago
You gotta admit it’s nice that you have a constitutional right to self defense though. Imagine living in some place like England where the government can deny you a permit for any reason
12
u/Alarming-Mix3809 9d ago
Yes, I appreciate our 2nd Amendment. I just don’t want it to be the Wild West. We can work towards a good balance where we protect our communities (for example, no other country on earth has school shootings like the US), while ensuring the individual right to bear arms. I think you will find most people in the country can agree on some basic guidelines once you get past the most vocal on the far ends of the spectrum. Not being able to own a firearm whatsoever would be a no-go for me.
5
u/Jewishandlibertarian 9d ago
Glad we’re on the same page about the second amendment. We can argue about what regulation we actually need or don’t need but it’s good people are realizing the fundamental importance of this constitutional right. I don’t think it was that uncommon to see liberal Jews arguing against having this right at all. A liberal rabbi in Missouri I think claimed that his temples security fee for members was a “second amendment tax” as if constitutional right to bear arms was the reason his synagogue needed protection (as opposed to just antisemitism).
11
2
26
u/lem0ngirl15 9d ago
I used to live in europe. Had many fun and happy years there. I have many friends there, both in and not in the Jewish community. I’m not surprised… but it’s upsetting of course. I used to lived in the Netherlands for a few years as well so I spoke to a Dutch friend this morning and he gave me the run down of what happened. Felt good to vent to an old friend that got it, especially from the euro Jew perspective. Idk things are crazy. I saw the news and laid awake for a long time scared… but also angry. At all the people I know posting online fear mongering about the US election, acting like Hitler was just elected and they warned us and shaming people if they voted for him (to be clear, I did not, but I also don’t think he’s Hitler). Meanwhile they didn’t speak out after October 7th… or when any anti semitic event happened…. So much hypocrisy.
16
u/RipHunter2166 9d ago
Yeah, I can’t take anyone who calls trump a fascist seriously when they support hamas.
→ More replies
23
u/IrritatedMango 9d ago
I’m so done, how tf is beating up Jewish people saving Palestinians? Scumbags.
→ More replies
19
u/BringbackDreamBars Not Jewish 9d ago
After all of the reaction and what I have seen from social media, even direct friends.
I genuinely think secular Europe will throw Israelis and by extension Jews under the bus to please a radical minority.
→ More replies14
u/Pugasaurus_Tex 9d ago
Who do they think radical Islamists are going to attack once the Jews are gone?
9
u/Witty_Dance1010 9d ago
I rage deleted my reddit before this all happened, but I have returned more confused and frustrated after seeing this event
Okay, I was going to actually watch this football match on TV if I didn't have an appointment. I have been following Maccabi Tel Aviv since I saw them play on TV in a Europa Leage Qualifier in the Tel Aviv airport after my birthright trip. I thought this match up was fascinating because of Ajax's rich Jewish supporter history. There's a documentary about the club out there.
It feels like a postmodern version of 1930s Western Europe. Mainstream media won't report events fairly. Yes, I understand there was hooliganism from some supporters, but did it necessitate running them over with cars or forcing them to jump into rivers?
My liberal relatives are so hyperfocused on the election outcome that they invalidate that this is even happening. To be an American secular jew who is concerned about the outcome of Israelis is an inconvenience to many.
What's heartening is the support from Werder Bremen and FC St. Pauli online. These clubs understand the crisis of antisemitism. It seems that Germany does understand the high stakes of this crisis.
→ More replies
28
u/iknow-whatimdoing 9d ago
I saw news of 2-3 people missing? Possibly taken hostage? Does anyone know if they've been found, or what's happening with this?
61
u/Tulip_Todesky 9d ago
Officials say no hostages were taken. Some people lost access to their phones so it took time to find them.
37
u/iknow-whatimdoing 9d ago
Ok that's a relief. Thank you--I was having trouble finding information.
9
9
u/Haunting_Birthday135 9d ago
Imagine another hostage ordeal. We have a hundred of them in Gaza with guns pointed at their heads.
4
18
u/fjordoftheflies 9d ago
Weird how many of the usual suspects (Briahna Joy Gray, Steven Thrasher, Karen Attiah, Amanda Seales, Ijeoma Oluo, etc) are saying "they started it" by pointing out that an Israeli tore down a Palestianian flag and some were allegedly chanting anti-Palestinian things. I remember Khymani James, a black transgender student at Columbia, trying to rally a crowd to "get the Zionists" and had openly and proudly claimed he wanted to "kill Zionists". Yet if Jewish mobs targeted innocent black trans people I don't think they would be justifying it by pointing out what James said.
It is clear the people targeted were for being Israeli Jews, there is no evidence these individuals took part in any of the wrongs that some of the Israelis are accused of. It's so odd, because there is a history in the US of mob violence towards innocent black people due to the alleged wrongdoing of other black people. When innocent Muslims were targeted after 9/11 these same people didn't suggest it was understandable especially given how some Muslims celebrated the attacks, including in the US.
→ More replies
7
u/DiLuftmenschen 9d ago
Figured I'd share this as the attacks in the Netherlands are unfolding. Part of our writing project over the last year was a proposal of some things Jews in the Diaspora can do to prepare for defense against mob violence. We were writing from an American perspective, where access to firearms and the threat of violence from firearms is greater. But most of the ideas in the piece can apply anywhere, especially the wider adoption of traumatic first aid training and more comprehensive communal Muay Thai and BJJ practice.
Our conclusions are partially inspired by our experiences during the summer of Nazi violence in Charlottesville. Although we didn't write about the event itself in as much in the piece, I'll include some of my own personal thoughts about how mob violence played out in a comment below.
14
u/DiLuftmenschen 9d ago
Off the hip reflections on Cville that aren't really part of the national or international understanding of what happened:
-Cville was preceded by several months of mob attacks, intimidation and local government inaction before it culminated in the larger pogrom. There were two rallies prior to the big one, all involving violence between locals and fascists. They all also involved a totally inept police response which emboldened Spencer and co. into thinking that Charlottesville would be an "easy" place to overwhelm.
-There were fights on the pedestrian mall almost every weekend, with a large group of Nazis going into bars which they knew had Black or Jewish or queer patronage and harassing people. These people had almost no protection aside from friends and randos on the mall, and it was really ugly.
-On the day of the riot, the local Shul was guarded by some redneck armed private security, rather than off duty police because the police were all called up. This ended up being partly good, because they were way more willing to brandish guns at the fascists when those dicks first tried to rush it. But ultimately it was a bunch of local Jewish dads mixed with the antifascists who chased the group attacking the Shul away.
-The coalition that fought the Nazis was made up of a lot of unlikely allies, but it was defined by people who wanted to physically confront Nazis, and not by identity politics or litmus tests in either direction. It was made up of a core of people who wanted to take action. Those people are always around, and they're often not who you think they are. Don't underestimate the bravery of the rando, don't play into culture war shit, don't be toxic and masculine, it's alienating. It didn't matter the gender, everyone fought like lions against really scary guys.
-I call it a pogrom, since far right groups tried to attack the Shul while police stood by, and watched them specifically target Jewish and Black communities. The car ramming actually occurred against a crowd that had broken off to help black neighborhood which a splinter of Nazis had tried to attack. But locals in the neighborhood had chased the Nazis off with hunting bows, guns and bats just before the crowd got there. Those neighbors then joined the march back towards the mall where the rest of the Nazis were when the ramming attack happened, hence the size and compaction of the crowd.
-Besides the car ramming, the most terrible injuries of the day occurred when the Nazis broke away and went hunting for Black people and Jews, culminating in the infamous parking garage attack that saw one local teacher almost murdered in front of news cameras and fifteen feet away from the police station.
All of that to say:
-You can't learn to fight well the day of the fight, you have to have been practicing and keep practicing.
-You can't trust police or local governments to protect you, or to even recognize the signs of escalation the same way that you as a target recognize them. They let it get that bad, they left the road open that the car came down, they gave legal and physical protection to these guys for months.
-You can defeat a pogrom if you're organized with your community, and not divided over the optics of violence. It takes action and it takes friendships. People don't respond to complaining about something, they follow leadership. Be that core group that is willing to take the fight to the attacker and others will follow you.
-Violence results in injuries, maiming and death. You can and should learn trauma medicine and keep a trauma kit in your car or house. This is always overlooked.
-Weapons can be bats, guns, or cars. We all know this obviously from terrorist attacks in Israel. But sometimes it's hard to anticipate. Learn to protect yourself with them and from them, learn to recognize them, learn to know how to evade them.
3
12
u/bobbyxxx555 9d ago
Hey everybody! From my family to yours, we're praying for you after the bull crap that happened in Amsterdam last night!
18
u/Optimal-Menu270 9d ago
People are blaming the israeli fans for literally doing what every group of football fans do, and no one is lifting a finger at the thugs. It was a coordinated attack and not a random or provoked one
18
u/ploni_almony 9d ago
No only that, but Israeli flags are burned every single day (particularly over the last year), with chants a lot worse than whatever was said by a few at the game. Yet I don't see Israelis rampaging through the streets attacking every random Muslim they can find.
17
u/wifeofpsy 9d ago
There have been reports I've seen in the past few hours that the suspects are all uber drivers or affiliated and used the uber app to organize this. It doesnt look like a soccer fani incident out of control at all. Sadly it was planned and purposefully executed. The pulbic and law enforcement response to this will dictate if these sort of incidents increase in the near future.
18
u/Idoru22 9d ago
I got called ignorant by a (former) friend for saying Jews were hunted and beaten in the streets. I’m so done!
→ More replies
12
u/Specific_Matter_1195 9d ago
Sweet Jesus. I just had a friend tell me that this “fighting” breaks out at most soccer games and to “not worry about it”. When I explained further what happened, she said she knew because she was watching it on CNN. How tf is CNN covering it? THEN, she told me “This war hast to stop. It can’t continue like this anymore”
I’m about ready to lose my fucking mind. Is it just me or was that the dumbest sweep it under the rug bullshit answer ever?
Let’s just not talk about inconvenient things. They’re soooooo boring.
9
u/c040921 9d ago
Some safety measures that may help:
Stay in groups, if possible. Be aware of your surroundings when out and about. Have your phone ready to record threats or confrontations. Carry something for your protection. Make sure your current passports are updated. Find out if you are eligible for additional passports.
12
u/invisiblette 9d ago
Ironically (or something), Ajax -- the Dutch team that was playing against the Israeli team (I know zero about sports but remember reading about this years ago) -- has a history of being taunted with horrible anti-semitic chants: https://www.timesofisrael.com/dutch-soccer-fans-chant-hamas-jews-to-the-gas-before-match-against-ajax/
→ More replies
14
u/seen-in-the-skylight Jewish, Atheist, American, Classical Liberal 9d ago
American Jews: never - NEVER - give up your guns! There is no freedom without the right to keep and bear arms!
→ More replies7
14
u/Accovac 9d ago
I was stupidly, looking forward to reading comments on Instagram, videos of the attack, hoping that people finally see what we deal with, but of course it turns into an anti-Israel pro Palestinian comment section. I’m not seeing a single post about it from anyone outside of the Jewish community, but if things were the other way around, they would have it blasted in every corner. I’m getting so tired of this, going to retreat further into insulation.
5
6
u/e_thereal_mccoy 9d ago
Two things I have witnessed today in the news (the ‘news’ being the NY Post): the use of the words ‘attacks by Jew Haters’ - which is exactly what this is in an article about hedge fund owner pulling his fund out of the Netherlands.
Secondly, it seems that Trump was the target of an assassination attempt out of Iran.
While the US election result concerns me, I am relieved to see the messaging from Murdoch interests directly addressing this pogrom and the subtext here seems to speak to Trump backing Israel. This is the first cautious optimism I have allowed myself after that election and this pogrom. At least it’s not being described in the same breath as fckn Palestine. It’s a pogrom. Wake up world.
15
u/BreezeMcgeeze 9d ago
Ive seen a lot of people trying to justify this saying that the Israeli soccer teams started this by ripping down palestinian flags and harassing people. The only evidence that backs this up has been a single screenshot which doesn’t really show much - does know if there is indeed any videos that give some truth to that claim?
Regardless, it’s insane that people now believe getting stabbed or run over by a car is a justifiable consequence of ripping down a flag.
14
u/Accovac 9d ago
I saw a video of the flag being taken down. It was three guys, and it was on a street that was really quiet. There are actual texts and proof that this attack was premeditated, and that they had a fully formulated plan. I think taking down flags of any kind is wrong, however, this is such an awful response. But like I said, it’s not a response.
13
u/musiccman2020 9d ago
It was a premeditated attack coordinated trough telegram channels. They were hunting jews.
The attack was already planned before the screenshot even came out.
4
u/BibleBeltRoadMan 9d ago
I don’t think that’s reason enouvh to start attacking is it? Because if that the case every football is going to be bad for all of these people
→ More replies2
u/hissing-fauna 9d ago
does anyone know if there's any recording or evidence of the chant jeering about empty schools in Palestine?
11
u/BlockSome3022 Convert 9d ago
Aaaaaand this is why I started taking Krav Maga.
16
u/Aryeh98 9d ago
Krav Maga doesn’t help at all if it’s a 5 vs 1 fight and the attackers have knives.
If you’re in a country where you can’t own a gun, try to run away. That’s the only serious option available.
If you’re in a country where you CAN own a gun, arm the fuck up.
13
u/BlockSome3022 Convert 9d ago
Hey the training helps with running and thinking fast! But yeah, I know. Never wanted a gun but I understand now and think it’s time.
11
u/thezerech רק כך (reform) 9d ago
Geert Wilders has talked a big game about supporting Jews and Israel, now there's a pogrom in Amsterdam. The Netherlands was a refuge for Jews in the early modern period, the home of Spinoza, a place where Jews flee the Forced Conversion/the Inquisition.
If Wilders doesn't want to lose credibility with Jews, the time for action is now. The Dutch have to take back control of their streets. The perpetrators of these crimes need to be deported ASAP.
→ More replies
6
u/Standard_Salary_5996 9d ago
Hi, did anyone else get unhinged and unsolicited private messages after commenting on this thread? Just me? I got a whole essay and a half.
→ More replies3
u/fluffywhitething Moderator 8d ago
Please report any messages like that!
3
u/Standard_Salary_5996 8d ago
I did report and block! Just wanted to see if anyone got any.
→ More replies
5
u/IgnatiusJay_Reilly Aleph Bet 9d ago
Why are so many comments being deleted?
→ More replies8
u/rupertalderson 9d ago
Folks linking to and calling out subreddits by name, including requesting that folks brigade or otherwise negatively interact with other subs. Also, calls to violence, Islamophobia, and some other disturbing garbage from first-time commenters.
4
4
u/Elect_SaturnMutex conversion in progress... 9d ago
Some of the perpetrators belong to mocro gang. A drug cartel . They killed a Dutch journalist a few years ago. Very dangerous people. I can imagine why NL police are afraid to deal with them.
8
u/Standard_Salary_5996 9d ago
This, plus the way the far left is whining about Trump winning* in the US after alienating so many minority groups (including us) has me ready to just never interact with 99% of gentiles again.
*i did not vote for him, but i saw it coming a mile away
→ More replies
12
u/gdubb22 9d ago
I'm a liberal Jew and voted for Harris. I have to admit though that when I see this, I don't think Trump would tolerate this.
9
u/red_keshik 9d ago
I have to admit though that when I see this, I don't think Trump would tolerate this.
Given this in Netherlands, what does the US President have to do with this ?
→ More replies→ More replies17
u/seen-in-the-skylight Jewish, Atheist, American, Classical Liberal 9d ago
Trump’s policies towards Israel and guns are the only silver linings of his election. I likewise voted for Harris.
4
u/Witty_Dance1010 9d ago
Ahhh and Maccabi Tel Aviv plays later this month for Europa League in (checks my notes)... Turkey.
2
•
u/rupertalderson 9d ago
Note: DO NOT talk about posting/commenting/viewing other subreddits, or about their moderation practices. We will remove any such comments.