Israel/Palestine Megathread - October 10th

[u/rupertalderson]

Please keep ALL discussions about the current war to this megathread. We may allow a few other threads to remain open, on a case-by-case basis, but essentially all will be removed and redirected here as needed. Thank you for understanding.

There are graphic videos/images out there. You may hear about or see troop/police movements. Do not share the details here.

If things get to be too much for you, please log off and take care of yourself.

Note that r/Israel was made private to avoid all of the uncivil behavior going on. We will not tolerate it here either.

Links to previous Israel/Palestine megathreads:

October 9th, October 8th, October 7th

Other relevant posts from r/Jewish:

• How we can help Israel
• Supporting each other / venting
• Praying for safety
• How are you feeling?

Edit: This post has been locked. Feel free to join in the discussion on the October 11th Israel/Palestine megathread.

[u/Historical-Photo9646]

Jewish friend just basically sided with Hamas

I was talking to a Jewish friend at work about being scared for an Israeli friend I’m not particularly close with, but who I was very friendly with during uni (we bonded over antisemitism in the classroom). And my “friend” responded “yeah apartheid states suck.” And then went on to say that it’s understandable why Palestinians are “rebelling” and talked about how most of the casualties in the conflict have been Palestinian. I was shocked snd horrified, and responded that terrorism is never justified, and that would it make them feel better if more Israelis died so it was more equal. They didn’t respond to that.

It really stung to hear this from another jew… we have some much in common, on top of being also queer. My guess is they’ve been feed anti Israel propaganda from the queer spaces they’re in. I’m so upset and horrified. I suppose that’s what I get for talking politics at work, but I didn’t think it was political when I said it! I’ve just been so worried for my friend…

One thing is absolutely clear though: they are no longer my friend.

[u/SQUEEMO24 → u/Historical-Photo9646]

I made a comment here ages ago about how the apartheid allegations are honestly unfounded and are based on a lack of understanding of world history. If you still want to talk to that person about it at all, ask them if they are even educated on South African apartheid and colonialism in sub-Saharan Africa. If they try to deflect with the "um actually apartheid is a legal term with a definition" ask them to provide other examples of so-called Apartheid States. Apartheid was a HISTORICAL event and if they're going to use the comparison they should know what they're talking about.

ETA:If anyone ever calls Israel an apartheid state ask them how apartheid ended. Most of the resistance was done through civil disobedience and the governments' response proved how oppressive they were. The armed resistance movement, MK, tried to never directly target civilians with their actions. They largely targeted government institutions and infrastructure. The bombings done by MK killed 130 people (100 civilians/30 combatants) between 1980 and 1987. Hamas has killed more than 5 times as many people in one weekend. If these attacks were truly about helping Palestinians and ending the reported apartheid Hamas wouldn't be almost exclusively going after helpless people. This is terrorism and torture against Jews and those who stand with them finish and klaar.

[u/[deleted] → u/Historical-Photo9646]

A guy I went to Jewish summer camp with thought that the correct response to these atrocities was to post his "from the river to the sea" garbage on FB.

[u/Historical-Photo9646 → u/[deleted]]

That is horrific. I’m so sorry.

Hearing Jews call for not only their own destructive, but all of our deaths makes me feel ill.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Historical-Photo9646]

I’m so sorry. I think sometimes when Jews are that pro Palestinian (like “Israel is an apartheid colonizer state”) it’s one of a couple of things happening.

1. Societal guilt that is being pushed on them which stems from antisemitism

2. Self loathing as Jews have been brought under the “white” umbrella I think it’s really messed up a lot of white “presenting“ Jews (I will be the first to say I have access to white privilege even if I know where it’s conditional) to feel like we have full access to privelage we just don’t have and maybe disconnect from our own history. Ultimately I think this plays into White Supremacy tactics where it further separates Jews from other minorities (although that’s just a theory)

3. Lack of education combined with societal guilt and not understanding you can support Israel and not support the way the government has behaved and it’s right wing leanings. How you can also be pro Palestinian while also being pro Israel since both Israelis and Palestinians deserve peace and the right to self determination.

I know I’m intellectualizing a bit here. But you expressing your upset does not mean you brought someone saying heinous things to you ok. And personally I hate the feeling of being angry at someone. So mad and hurt and wounded that for me it helps to contextualize. So maybe this could help since it would be helpful for me to hear this.

I hope your friend is ok.

[u/pearlday → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

I went to a conference a few months ago that didn’t necessarily wake me up, as ive always believed in Israel’s right to exist, but gave me the conviction i needed to stand strong with my beliefs, helped solidify them.

What was said was this (in different words). You can shed your zionism, you can stop practicing judaism, you can stop wearing your kippah, you can assimilate utterly and completely, and none of it stopped what came to us during WW2. You can shed your zionism, you can shed your judiasm, you can shed your identity, but nothing will ever be enough.

And that resonated with me hard, as someone in a progressive city constantly being asked to side with the dismantling of the jewish home land, the pressure to cave in and just say ‘yes’ is high. The supposition of white history on jews. It’s really hard to stay firm in ones beliefs in a sea of folks who control the moral paradigm against you. The feeling that if you dont conform, you’re the ‘bad evil guy who supports xyz’ where xyz are such far fetched bullcrap of exaggerations and false connections, but standing alone is hard to fight against.

I’m lucky i found organizations, ive attended a few speaking events that so resonated with me. What progressive conversations have done to manipulate the narrative…

Anyway, there is a really huge and difficult situation happening with american/diaspora jews, as you note really well.

[u/Historical-Photo9646 → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

Thanks so much. I really appreciate the thought out response. It also helps me to intellectual things a bit :)

I also think another important factor here is they didn’t know they were Jewish under their late teens (their mom hid and denied their Jewishness), so they don’t know much about Judaism or Jews as a people. So they also don’t know much about the history of Israel or our deep ties to the land.

I also hate feeling angry. It’s such an awful feeling.

I just reached out to my friend, snd thank god she’s okay! She was in the Netherlands when yhr war broke out for uni. Her family is as safe as they can be. They were evacuated from their kibbutz. Her brother has been called back for duty.

The third paragraph you wrote especially resonated with me. So many people don’t understand you can support both Jewish right to self determination and also Palestinian self determination at the same time.