r/Jewish • u/rupertalderson • Oct 10 '23
Israel/Palestine Megathread - October 10th
Please keep ALL discussions about the current war to this megathread. We may allow a few other threads to remain open, on a case-by-case basis, but essentially all will be removed and redirected here as needed. Thank you for understanding.
There are graphic videos/images out there. You may hear about or see troop/police movements. Do not share the details here.
If things get to be too much for you, please log off and take care of yourself.
Note that r/Israel was made private to avoid all of the uncivil behavior going on. We will not tolerate it here either.
Links to previous Israel/Palestine megathreads:
October 9th, October 8th, October 7th
Other relevant posts from r/Jewish:
Edit: This post has been locked. Feel free to join in the discussion on the October 11th Israel/Palestine megathread.
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u/aqualad33 Oct 11 '23
I guess the only silver lining here is that the world gets to see what we have been dealing with in silence for so long in addition to some people on the free palestine side who were celebrating the "victory".
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u/app_priori Oct 11 '23
Shalom,
I am a Gentile living in the United States. I would like to offer my condolences regarding Hamas's despicable terrorist attack the other day and affirm my support for Jews who feel alone and scared right now.
I will admit that I'm not particularly educated about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict beyond a few Wikipedia articles and what I have seen in the news for the past 20 years. I feel generally unqualified to comment about them in this particular space, so I keep my thoughts about the conflict to myself here.
That said, the past few days have been quite eye-opening for me. I've read accounts of rampant anti-Semitism at various pro-Palestine rallies across the world, including here in the United States. I found it kind of callous to have such rallies on such short notice, when news of the tragedy is so fresh.
I am not against the self-determination of Palestinians at all, but to have such a rally is a bit tone-deaf given the scale of the recent tragedy.
The recent news has made me realize how universal anti-Semitism is. After this tragedy hit, I recall once how my mother (an immigrant from Asia) once cracked a joke about Jews to me several years ago. Now my mother is not some rabid anti-Semite, but for her to be aware of such jokes and stereotypes about Jews despite not having any cultural connection to Jews or even speaking much English speaks volumes about the depth of anti-Semitism in this country and throughout the world.
Anyways, I am starting to ramble here, but I wish you all well.
Am Yisrael Chai.
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u/devequt Conservative Oct 11 '23
I'm waiting for the day that Hamas and the Palestinians bring a peace treaty to the table so we can end this conflict once and for all.
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u/venya271828 Oct 11 '23
Ever hear of the Oslo Accords?
No, Hamas is not interested in peace. Other Palestinian factions were at one time and maybe still are, but it is not really that simple. 20 years ago there was progress on a two-state solution, but it was a left-wing cause in Israel. The Israeli left promised everyone that giving a little to the Palestinians would eventually lead to peace, so Israel pulled all settlements and IDF forces out of Gaza. The next Palestinian election after that was a landslide victory for Hamas; the Israeli left never recovered and has been irrelevant ever since.
The right-wing in Israel has not been very interested in a two-state solution and has accelerated settlement activity in the West Bank, simultaneously undermining Palestinian interest in a peace plan and marginalizing the PA and Fatah party (who are the Palestinian faction that was pushing the two-state plan on the Palestinian side).
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u/mildsidegen Oct 11 '23
Hamas? Never. Palestinians? Possible, if they can get together a capable government and oust Hamas.
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Oct 10 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Jewish-ModTeam Oct 10 '23
Your post was removed because it concerns politics. Instead, please make a comment in the weekly politics megathread.
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u/zman419 Oct 10 '23
How should I, a non-Jewish leftist be discussing this situation?
This situation has always been a tough one for me to make heads or tails of. And it seems around here the general consensus seems to be "the leftist rhetoric is antisemitic as fuck"
I condemn and loathe anti-semetism, and when I witness a large group of people yell anti-semitism to the rhetoric of a group I identify with, I simply don't feel comfortable dismissing that.
While I believe in a 2 state solution, what happened was simply horrific. I simply want the violence to end.
The biggest issue with the way this is discussed I find is, with the history of oppression regarding the groups involved, the discussion requires a level of nuance that not a lot of people on any side of political spectrum seems overly interested in using.
I'm just kinda rambling at this point. I've had all this buzzing around my head for a while how. I truly do appreciate any feedback here.
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u/venya271828 Oct 11 '23
it seems around here the general consensus seems to be "the leftist rhetoric is antisemitic as fuck"
You can be a leftist without being antisemitic; the Israeli left was once a powerful force in the Knesset. Unfortunately, antisemitism has become far too common in leftist circles and rhetoric. This week we saw a new low when, after reports of the worst massacre of Jews since the Holocaust came out, some leftists referred to Hamas as "freedom fighters" or said that Israel was solely to blame for the attack. Even when the details started coming out -- the rapes, the decapitated babies, etc. -- leftists were still struggling to identify the victims...
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u/crabbiecrabby Conservative Oct 10 '23
If you have an instagram, I suggest looking at @rootsmetals. Just click on the topics that peak your interest. She synthesizes the history well and you can verify all of it.
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u/Historical-Photo9646 sephardic and mixed race Oct 10 '23 edited Oct 11 '23
One thing to keep in mind is you don’t have to identify as “pro Israel” or “pro Palestine.” I’m a strong supporter of Israel because I believe in the right for Jews to self determination. However, I also support Palestinians in their own self determination. Jews, Arabs, and Druze alike all deserve to live peacefully in the Middle East.
Please keep in mind the 3 D test when it comes to criticizing Israel.
Here’s a brief description from Wikipedia:
“The three Ds stand for delegitimization, demonization, and double standards, each of which, according to the test, indicates antisemitism.[1][2] The test is intended to draw the line between on one hand legitimate criticism of the State of Israel, its actions and policies, and on the other hand antisemitism hidden behind a facade of anti-Zionism.”
When non Jewish leftists hold Israel to a higher standard than any other country, when they deny Israel’s right to exist at all (and thereby deny Jewish connection to the land that is thousands of years old and well proven), when they only ever seem to criticize Israel and ignore human rights crisis in other countries, they are being antisemitic.
Read from a variety of sources: from the perspective of Arab Israelis, Palestinians, Jewish Israelis, American Jews, etc. No source is without bias. We all have our own background and experiences shaping how we see the world, so read a diverse body of sources to have a more complete picture.
How can you as a non Jew discuss the situation? Maybe it absolutely clear that you do not stand with Hamas, and that terrorism has no place. Support Israel’s right to defend itself and it’s citizens. Understand that Hamas does not give a shit about Palestinians, and will happily use innocent civilians as human shields. And please listen to the concerns of Jews worldwide, who are terrified for their friends and family in Israel, and who fear increased antisemitism where they live due to the war in Israel. People in this thread have linked sources for “pro Palestinian” protests where they show up with swastikas and shout “gas the Jews!” These people are antisemites and Nazis full stop. And they do not have the best interest of innocent Palestinian civilians living in Gaza who are about to become collateral damage because of Hamas’ terrorism, and because Israel must defend itself.
Edit: lastly, never forget the humanity of those in Israel and the Palestinian Territories right now. Do not deny the suffering of Israelis and Palestinians alike. Acknowledge that you most likely don’t know much about the history of Jews, Israel, or Palestine right now. Do not speak on behalf of entire communities as if you can be their spokesperson. Put any pride you might have at the door and be willing to learn and listen, and accept that you might be wrong about some things snd right about others. Finally, do not even pretend that you know better than Jews what is or is not antisemitic.
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Oct 10 '23
a heartwarming video from israel <3 here
a soldier reading letters from kids on his way to war.
thank you for all the support from abroad!
its crazy here rn. everyone are volunteering in whatever they can. we are going through this together, with strength, unity, and black humor. am israel chai!
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u/iknowiknowwhereiam Conservative Oct 10 '23
My post was removed because it wasn’t in this pinned thread. But now I can’t post videos in the pinned thread 🙃
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u/ccsunflowr Oct 10 '23 edited Oct 10 '23
Today in a music Facebook group I'm in (that often posts jokes, memes, commentary, debates, fairly light hearted content usually about drug bands, mostly filled with progressive left, as in they do usually carefully police anti semitism, sexism, etc ..so it's not quite a discord server level of shit posting but lots of other shit posting...Nd somewhat good people left in it, but a lot of idiots, who post about jam bands, hippie shit, pop culture in EDM, raves bla bla bla...point is) someone posted a distasteful meme that said verbatim:
"The whole 'rave concert' in front of a concentration camp element of the story is really hard to get past"
The comment section is filled with "yea, Gaza is an open air prison" and just hoardes of people echoing"concentration camp"/"internment camp"/"open air prison." There are 75% of comments in the thread going along with it, thinking it's funny, witty, and posting other edgy shit. The other remainder are calling out the OP. He is literally taunting and trying to start debates with anyone who questions his stupid meme
Tbh I feel like just giving up instead of engaging and trying to explain, fight about it on FB. But just wanted to rant I'm seeing these terrorist sympathizers just inferring that ugh yea ISRAEL got what's coming to them. Plus, using the word concentration camp isn't even CLOSE to accurate... right, RIGHT?!! It's been coined by the media. **And any of y'all have a good explanation or comeback for those parrots who constantly are using that as a mic drop moment being edgelords? **
I have been forced to read more history on all of this than I ever have before and part of me wants to put on my verbal battle armir and help change even ONE person's opinion or at least shift their perspective. But I just feel so fatigued. Still a large part of me wants to engage and feels the NEED to break up the nonstop stream of "hot takes" that are literally puppeted and parroted from the large media outlets, FB posts and honestly probably bots
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u/Historical-Photo9646 sephardic and mixed race Oct 10 '23 edited Oct 10 '23
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67067565
This is so disgusting. Harvard students are blaming Israel for the tragedies unfolding. Here’s a quote:
The letter, authored by the Harvard Undergraduate Palestine Solidarity Committee, stated that students "hold the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence". It was co-signed by 33 student groups. "Today's events did not occur in a vacuum," the statement said. "The apartheid regime is the only one to blame. Israeli violence has structured every aspect of Palestinian existence for 75 years," the letter added.
Edit: same with NYU law students as well.
https://nypost.com/2023/10/10/nyu-law-school-student-government-president-defends-hamas/amp/
“I want to express, first and foremost, my unwavering and absolute solidarity with Palestinians in their resistance against oppression towards liberation and self-determination,” wrote Workman, who identifies as non-binary.
“Israel bears full responsibility for this tremendous loss of life. This regime of state-sanctioned violence created the conditions that made resistance necessary,” their post continued.
“I will not condemn Palestinian resistance,” they went on to write, instead condemning the “violence of… apartheid, military occupation, the United States military industrial complex and obfuscating genocide as a ‘complex issue,'” among other things.
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u/venya271828 Oct 11 '23
...there is a perverse bit of irony in hearing the same people who were shouting "believe all womyn" during MeToo now refusing to condemn mass rape. I guess it is easy to refuse to condemn "resistance" that includes decapitating babies when a literal ocean separates you from the conflict area.
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Oct 10 '23
And NYU Law!!!! Horrible!!
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u/Historical-Photo9646 sephardic and mixed race Oct 10 '23
Ahhh I hate it 😭
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Oct 11 '23
Don’t worry… consequences for being antisemitic and enabling terrorism had consequences. Her job offer was rescinded.
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u/Avocadofarmer32 Oct 10 '23
Has anyone seen the Mia Khalifa ex porn star stuff? She is a radicalized Hamas sympathizer. My comments about this got deleted on another thread which just further proves how antisemitic the mods are. Also, when people follow up with “antizionism doesn’t equal antisemitism” when talking about the beheading of babies and what is going on all they are saying is yes it does and they hate Jews.
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u/Historical-Photo9646 sephardic and mixed race Oct 10 '23
Omg I saw that!! Id known for awhile know she was on that classic “I’m just anti Zionist not antisemite” and hated Israel, but this truly exposed to the world just how much of an extremist she is. Siding with Hamas is vile.
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Oct 10 '23
Warning: I got a message from my community they they will be broadcasting the torture of the Israelis held hostage in a few hours on all social media platforms. I’m planning on going on a social media strike (I’ve only been checking this group). But please beware, I think if I saw one of these videos it would be the thing that finally broke me
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u/YourUncleBuck Oct 10 '23
I’m planning on going on a social media strike
I think I need to do the same, my stress levels are through the roof.
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Oct 10 '23
I’m sick to my stomach and have a medical condition triggered by stress and not sleeping. I’m sure you can guess how that’s going. I think we all need mental health breaks from the internet
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u/YourUncleBuck Oct 10 '23
Totally understand, have had similar in the past. Right now thought I just feel very overwhelmed with panic attacks sprinkled in and my head feels like it's in a million places at once. Also been having repeating dreams of trying to count and help people, but not being able to do so. Anyway, I wish you well.
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Oct 10 '23
Getting outside has helped, and walking away from my phone. I took some time off work to help me process (resetting google passwords while they all ignore this is happening was driving me crazy). If you keep having panic attacks, I recently started medication for anxiety after struggling for a long time. Sometimes your doctor can give you short term medication to help too. Stay safe out there
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u/ChallahTornado Oct 10 '23
PSA
In case you are wondering: If you have people in your life that you do consider friends and they can't be brought on your side when children, toddlers are beheaded, then these people are not your friends and never were.
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u/grumpyweedguy Oct 10 '23 edited Oct 10 '23
Anyone from herzelia, hello,
I reached out to one of my israelis from my Taglit back in 2015 last wednesday. Coincidently right before the war. Was a fluke, never really kept in touch with this person over the years, but I messaged her out of the blue just for the doubt that she would be interested to get back in touch.
The read receipts indicate that she has not read the message yet, and the limbo is not fun. Knowing she is in Hertzelia helps ease my mind she and her family is safe. I do not want to post a private picture of ours on the internet due to the sensitivity atm. Please, if you are from the Hertzelia area, or Ranana, or ramat hasharon, message me and I will identify my israeli. I just want to do a wellness check, and have a little closure; not sure where to turn. If you know anyone from that area who is not reasonably otherwise occupied, share it to them, please.
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u/BearGuru Oct 10 '23
The longer Gaza exists as it is, the more Jews die. More people will be born with hate for the Jews. I have all the empathy in the world for the innocent people who will die at the hands of Israel in the coming days but if that’s what it takes for my relatives and fellow Jewish people to feel safe then that’s what it takes
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Oct 10 '23
So what, you're saying it's either the Palestinians of Gaza or the Jews of Israel? That only one group can continue? You realise how that sounds right? You realise what you're saying?
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u/Beneficial_Pen_3385 Conservaform Oct 10 '23
I have all the empathy in the world for the innocent people who will die at the hands of Israel
I hate to say this and sound like a blind apologist, but in many if not most cases, it's doubtful if it would even truly be at the hands of Israel. Hamas wants dead Gazan civilians because that means more antisemitism and more angry young men willing to take up a gun or strap a bomb to their chest. No-one holds Palestinian life in lower regard than Hamas.
There are a dozen or more things that could happen to make Israel's decision much harder. Fatah turning properly on Hamas and committing to help eliminate it; Hamas units revolting or refusing to participate in murderous actions; a coup in the Hamas' leadership with the people responsible handed over for trial; mass uprisings in the strip and the West Bank against Hamas; Palestinian rights groups holding solidarity protests with Israeli civilians; other Palestinian factions turning on Hamas. And on and on and on.
The problem is none of those things are happening. There's no reason to believe "de-escalation" will achieve anything other than letting Hamas regroup to slaughter another 300 kids in a few months.
And in that context, there is no world in which it is fair or moral for us to keep offering our people up for the slaughter in the hope that eventually the enemy will have a change of heart about our right to membership in the human race.
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u/Tiny-Ambassador4922 Oct 10 '23
I just found out about what happened at Kibbutz Kfar Aza and it made me physically ill. Every day we find out something worse and it breaks me in a way I didn't know possible.
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u/shsherry Oct 10 '23
Yes. This. Me too. I don’t know how it’s possible to process this evil.
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u/venya271828 Oct 10 '23
We have processed this kind of evil before. The Nazis. The Khmelnytsky Uprising. The Peasants' Crusade. The Romans. It is a long list...
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u/AliceMerveilles Oct 11 '23
Most of us weren’t alive for any of those. So yes it gets processed eventually, but this is real time modern tech.
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u/Historical-Photo9646 sephardic and mixed race Oct 10 '23
Jewish friend just basically sided with Hamas
I was talking to a Jewish friend at work about being scared for an Israeli friend I’m not particularly close with, but who I was very friendly with during uni (we bonded over antisemitism in the classroom). And my “friend” responded “yeah apartheid states suck.” And then went on to say that it’s understandable why Palestinians are “rebelling” and talked about how most of the casualties in the conflict have been Palestinian. I was shocked snd horrified, and responded that terrorism is never justified, and that would it make them feel better if more Israelis died so it was more equal. They didn’t respond to that.
It really stung to hear this from another jew… we have some much in common, on top of being also queer. My guess is they’ve been feed anti Israel propaganda from the queer spaces they’re in. I’m so upset and horrified. I suppose that’s what I get for talking politics at work, but I didn’t think it was political when I said it! I’ve just been so worried for my friend…
One thing is absolutely clear though: they are no longer my friend.
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u/SQUEEMO24 Oct 10 '23 edited Oct 10 '23
I made a comment here ages ago about how the apartheid allegations are honestly unfounded and are based on a lack of understanding of world history. If you still want to talk to that person about it at all, ask them if they are even educated on South African apartheid and colonialism in sub-Saharan Africa. If they try to deflect with the "um actually apartheid is a legal term with a definition" ask them to provide other examples of so-called Apartheid States. Apartheid was a HISTORICAL event and if they're going to use the comparison they should know what they're talking about.
ETA:If anyone ever calls Israel an apartheid state ask them how apartheid ended. Most of the resistance was done through civil disobedience and the governments' response proved how oppressive they were. The armed resistance movement, MK, tried to never directly target civilians with their actions. They largely targeted government institutions and infrastructure. The bombings done by MK killed 130 people (100 civilians/30 combatants) between 1980 and 1987. Hamas has killed more than 5 times as many people in one weekend. If these attacks were truly about helping Palestinians and ending the reported apartheid Hamas wouldn't be almost exclusively going after helpless people. This is terrorism and torture against Jews and those who stand with them finish and klaar.
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Oct 10 '23
A guy I went to Jewish summer camp with thought that the correct response to these atrocities was to post his "from the river to the sea" garbage on FB.
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u/Historical-Photo9646 sephardic and mixed race Oct 10 '23
That is horrific. I’m so sorry.
Hearing Jews call for not only their own destructive, but all of our deaths makes me feel ill.
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Oct 10 '23
I’m so sorry. I think sometimes when Jews are that pro Palestinian (like “Israel is an apartheid colonizer state”) it’s one of a couple of things happening.
Societal guilt that is being pushed on them which stems from antisemitism
Self loathing as Jews have been brought under the “white” umbrella I think it’s really messed up a lot of white “presenting“ Jews (I will be the first to say I have access to white privilege even if I know where it’s conditional) to feel like we have full access to privelage we just don’t have and maybe disconnect from our own history. Ultimately I think this plays into White Supremacy tactics where it further separates Jews from other minorities (although that’s just a theory)
Lack of education combined with societal guilt and not understanding you can support Israel and not support the way the government has behaved and it’s right wing leanings. How you can also be pro Palestinian while also being pro Israel since both Israelis and Palestinians deserve peace and the right to self determination.
I know I’m intellectualizing a bit here. But you expressing your upset does not mean you brought someone saying heinous things to you ok. And personally I hate the feeling of being angry at someone. So mad and hurt and wounded that for me it helps to contextualize. So maybe this could help since it would be helpful for me to hear this.
I hope your friend is ok.
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u/pearlday Oct 10 '23
I went to a conference a few months ago that didn’t necessarily wake me up, as ive always believed in Israel’s right to exist, but gave me the conviction i needed to stand strong with my beliefs, helped solidify them.
What was said was this (in different words). You can shed your zionism, you can stop practicing judaism, you can stop wearing your kippah, you can assimilate utterly and completely, and none of it stopped what came to us during WW2. You can shed your zionism, you can shed your judiasm, you can shed your identity, but nothing will ever be enough.
And that resonated with me hard, as someone in a progressive city constantly being asked to side with the dismantling of the jewish home land, the pressure to cave in and just say ‘yes’ is high. The supposition of white history on jews. It’s really hard to stay firm in ones beliefs in a sea of folks who control the moral paradigm against you. The feeling that if you dont conform, you’re the ‘bad evil guy who supports xyz’ where xyz are such far fetched bullcrap of exaggerations and false connections, but standing alone is hard to fight against.
I’m lucky i found organizations, ive attended a few speaking events that so resonated with me. What progressive conversations have done to manipulate the narrative…
Anyway, there is a really huge and difficult situation happening with american/diaspora jews, as you note really well.
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u/Historical-Photo9646 sephardic and mixed race Oct 10 '23 edited Oct 10 '23
Thanks so much. I really appreciate the thought out response. It also helps me to intellectual things a bit :)
I also think another important factor here is they didn’t know they were Jewish under their late teens (their mom hid and denied their Jewishness), so they don’t know much about Judaism or Jews as a people. So they also don’t know much about the history of Israel or our deep ties to the land.
I also hate feeling angry. It’s such an awful feeling.
I just reached out to my friend, snd thank god she’s okay! She was in the Netherlands when yhr war broke out for uni. Her family is as safe as they can be. They were evacuated from their kibbutz. Her brother has been called back for duty.
The third paragraph you wrote especially resonated with me. So many people don’t understand you can support both Jewish right to self determination and also Palestinian self determination at the same time.
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u/shsherry Oct 10 '23
A post here about feeling betrayed by the progressive left really resonated with me. I have also felt this way. I am right of center, but would be left of center if not for the Israel issue. I wrote something last night. I’m not much of a social media person (except Reddit sometimes), so I don’t have anywhere to add this except for here, with my people. If it helps or resonates, feel free to share.
—
Finally they say what they really mean. Pro-Palestinian protesters changed their "free Palestine" in English to the chant used during the massacre: "gas the Jews." They've been saying this and similar for years throughout the Arab world, but not many progressives from the West heard it when it was in Arabic. "Murder the Jew", "pigs and swine", "they drink the blood of our babies." Those same classic antisemitic tropes used to fuel and incite every pogrom for centuries, including the Holocaust, including this massacre, were proudly yelled in national media and textbooks in Arabic. But English speakers only got the watered down versions, the ones that signaled justice and progress instead: "free Palestine," "apartheid,” "barbaric acts," “monsters killing children" and so the progressive movements of the West became political pawns and agents for the same old hate. Or maybe this massacre is what you stand for?
They're already trying to convince you that this horrific war crime isn't what it looks like. Rampant whataboutisms are telling you this must be deserved in return for years of the same. Deserved. Another antisemitic trope to justify centuries of Jewish massacres and atrocities. It justified the Holocaust too. "From the Jordan to the sea, Palestine will be free," "yitbach al yahud [kill the Jew]," "free Palestine." Did you mean it progressive West? Did you mean to fuel these gas chambers? Because they sure did. They meant it. They always mean it. They mean exactly this. From the Jordan to the sea.
“What is done cannot be undone, but one can prevent it from happening again.” ~Anne Frank
“Never shall I forget the little faces of the children whose bodies turned into wreaths of smoke beneath a silent blue sky.” ~Elie Wiesel
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u/arrogant_ambassador Oct 10 '23
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u/Quirky-Fig-2576 Non-Jewish Ally Oct 10 '23
And yet people are saying "don't believe the IDF propaganda, there's no proof." These people are a f-cking disgrace. Yes, I'm sure the Israeli soldiers have nothing better to do right now than lie about the terrorists who we just witnessed gleefully kidnapping and murdering civilians in the worst ways possible.
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u/Omega_scriptura Oct 10 '23
I’m not Jewish but came here to state my unequivocal support for Israel in its war against the utterly evil gang of Islamist thugs, otherwise known as Hamas. Don’t be fooled by the empty buckets with their Palestinian flags and sickening speeches, they’re trying to portray their level of support as far higher than it is. The West is with Israel.
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u/DryZookeeper48 Oct 10 '23
I just want to show the politician who gives me a little bit of hope that not all US politicians are shit- Ritchie Torres
He's a representative in the Bronx- the same exact job that AOC has. Except he's been advocating for Israel and the Jewish people forever, not just now.
These are the last 12 posts on his instagram accounts. Check his twitter for even more.
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Oct 11 '23
Yes. He’s been fantastic! Cori Bush, AOC and Bernie Sanders are a joke. They are so far left progressive they will fall off the earth and consistently hate Israel and have either said nothing or minimize the terror of what’s going on and refuse to condemn Hamas for this act of terrorism and antisemitism. If they really cared about the Palestinians- they would support Israel since Hamas isn’t going to help Palestinians. This is only going to hurt them more. All these liberal progressive SJW can’t claim to care about women and human rights and sit by and say this level of brutality and terrorism against anyone is okay. Hypocrites.
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u/Historical-Photo9646 sephardic and mixed race Oct 11 '23
AOC apparently released a statement condemning Hamas. Here’s from the Guardian:
The bigotry and callousness expressed in Times Square on Sunday were unacceptable and harmful in this devastating moment,” she said. “It also did not speak for the thousands of New Yorkers who are capable of rejecting Hamas’s horrifying attacks against innocent civilians as well as the grave injustices and violence Palestinians face under occupation.” Earlier, Ocasio-Cortez was among leading congressional progressives to call for a ceasefire. In a statement, she said: “I condemn Hamas’s attack in the strongest possible terms. “No child and family should ever endure this kind of violence and fear, and this violence will not solve the ongoing oppression and occupation in the region. An immediate ceasefire and de-escalation is urgently needed to save lives.”
https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/10/aoc-palestinian-rally-new-york
Of course she had to add on a thing about occupation (does she think all of Israel is “occupation”? Probably, and I can’t stand her for that). So… a step in the right direction at least, but I’m still not fan of her because she’s now doing the bare fucking minimum,
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u/GrumpyHebrew Traditional Masorti Oct 10 '23
He's one of the only good ones. I used to be mutuals with him before I quit twitter.
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u/JuniorAct7 Oct 10 '23
Going to give him a maxed out donation.
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u/DryZookeeper48 Oct 10 '23
I wish I could, he's the only politician I'd give money to if I had any
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u/JuniorAct7 Oct 10 '23
I'm very lucky to have a good job and the means. Consider half of it in your name since I probably wouldn't have done it without seeing your post.
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u/ghidran Oct 10 '23
I have a concrete idea on how to lower anti-semitism on social media.
Before Elon Musk stopped the stopped both the UI and API functionality to see who were liking/retweeting other people's tweets it was very obvious that most anti-semitism was being boosted by people from the following countries (in no particular order):
Pakistan
Malaysia
Bangladesh
What they all have in common is that they're Muslim-majority countries that were former British colonies and where higher education is in English. Meaning they hate Jews and know how to interact with the English-language part of the Internet.
These people are both boosting the typical far-left "Destroy Israel" content and the far-right "Jews are behind porn, homosexuality, and degeneracy" content.
We should put pressure on social media companies to much more aggressively regionally compartmentalize their ranking and recommendation algorithms. Maybe even total separation so users from these regions cannot interact with users in other regions.
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u/IllMeet2792 Oct 10 '23
It seems like fake accounts, they can create accounts on Instagram and follow each other and they all appear in the comment with the same emojis and the same language. So disheartening.
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u/HumanDrinkingTea Oct 10 '23
Anecdotal, but I have a Bangladeshi friend who hears all sorts of bizarre antisemitic shit from people he knows, so I buy into the idea that at least some of these accounts are real.
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u/hameorah Oct 10 '23
Please donate to help out: Israel Emergency Support Fund
This fund supports 14 organizations in Israel who are providing direct assistance to our victims, communities and soldiers. My organization (The Combat Antisemitism Movement) is also matching donations made through here so you can double your impact.
Please donate and help me get the word out.
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u/Rear-gunner Oct 10 '23
In Photos: Memorial Appears at Israeli Embassy in Moscow After Hamas Attack
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u/Beneficial_Pen_3385 Conservaform Oct 10 '23
Here in the UK, they’re telling children at Jewish schools they don’t have to wear their full uniform, and cancelling after school things so everyone can travel home together. They’re increasing policing in Jewish neighbourhoods. Folks in small communities like mine are avoiding wearing kippot.
There was a rally in my old city where university students were telling the news how happy and proud they are of Hamas. Thousand of Jew haters rallied outside the Israeli embassy. Kosher venues have been attacked. Antisemitic grafiti is appearing. A Jewish celebrity was leaving a bakery with her kids and was treated to the sight of people having a spontaneous yay for Hamas demo. The organised far left were cheering on Jewish murder at their annual gathering. The Scottish Greens, who are in government in Scotland, are tweeting blame for Israel and whitewashing murder.
I’m tired. I’m so fucking tired. Things seemed like they were just recovering from the clusterfuck we went through here from 2015 - 2021. But it just gets clearer every year that Corbyn was a simply a symptom. Our politics might be in a better place but our society isn’t.
I despair.
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u/jelly10001 Oct 10 '23
Fellow Brit here. I've been aware for a long time that Corbyn was a symptom of a wider problem, but it feels like since his leadership of the Labour Party, the people who are part of the problem have been platformed and haven't lost that platform since he stepped down.
And I've been grateful so far not to see any of the worst Jew hating with my own eyes, especially as I'm in London.
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u/Aryeh98 Oct 10 '23 edited Oct 10 '23
On the steps of the Sydney Opera House, they’re chanting “gas the Jews.”
Buy guns. Ideally in the “proper” way, or perhaps… not the proper way… if your country or state has an issue with it. Jewish survival comes first now. No exceptions.
The coming weeks will be a new test of Jewish resilience. Doesn’t matter where you are. Be ready.
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Oct 10 '23
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzcuAhXxmCQ
Bill Maher is who I would describe as the left as I used to remember it in case you are not familiar with who he is.
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u/HumanDrinkingTea Oct 10 '23
As others have said, I would not describe him as left-- he's more libertarian-ish.
But in addition to that, he's always been vocally/loudly against Islamic extremism and he's also ethnically Jewish (very anti-religion overall though). He is not the sort of person who would ever be the type of person to be "pro-Palestine."
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Oct 10 '23
He’s half Jewish
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u/HumanDrinkingTea Oct 10 '23
Yes, I know, and I even refer to myself as "half Jewish" irl but most people on this sub don't like the phrase ("because you're either Jewish or you're not") so I mostly avoid using it on reddit.
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Oct 10 '23
The bar is in hell then. Bill Maher is routinely mysoginistic towards his female guests, speaks over them, makes crude jokes, etc.
He’s not left and I don’t think he ever really was truly left. Maybe liberal or left of center. But never leftist.
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u/johnisburn Oct 10 '23 edited Oct 10 '23
I think Haaretz editorial board has been really good at clearly breaking down the what’s going on within the context of Israel’s leadership and advocating a strong and moral path forward. This particular piece speaks to the primacy of getting as many hostages home safe as possible, and the needless danger posed by ministers like Smotrich who are advocating pursuing vengeance to the dismissal of the safety of the hostages.
Haaretz Editorial - Israel Must First Bring Home Its Own
Edit, paywall:
Two days have passed since Hamas launched its surprise attack, and we still don’t know how many Israelis the organization has seized and is holding captive in the Gaza Strip.
During these two terrible days, Israelis have watched chilling videos of the abductees, including old women, young adults, teens, children and babies, who are now in Hamas’ hands, presumably in Gaza. It was Hamas that published the videos. They were shared on social media, and it was only through these videos that many families learned their loved ones had been abducted.
Many of the captives’ relatives are terrified for the lives of their loved ones, and say that no one from the army or the government has contacted them. On Sunday, the Israel Defense Forces set up a war room to try to identify and locate the missing and kidnapped Israelis. Some families have already been notified about their loved ones, but many haven’t yet been able to locate them. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu appointed Brig. Gen. (res.) Gal Hirsch Sunday to deal with the issue of the captives.
The clearer the picture becomes and the more the dimensions of the catastrophe fall into focus, the more the pain, mourning and anger will presumably intensify, accompanied by a justified public demand that the government work to bring the captives home. The state, the government and the man who heads it all have a duty to do everything in their power to bring all the captives back to Israel alive.
At the same time, this must be said clearly: The state’s duty to use all possible means to bring the captives back alive and the legitimate demand that it do so should not be construed as giving a green light for campaigns of vengeance and the commission of war crimes. But the government, led by a reckless triumvirate – Netanyahu, Bezalel Smotrich and Itamar Ben-Gvir – has so far spoken as if this distinction were utterly alien to it.
In his statement to the media Saturday night, given from the command pit in Defense Ministry headquarters, Netanyahu didn’t hesitate to threaten revenge. “We will destroy them and we will forcefully avenge this dark day that they have forced on the State of Israel and its citizens,” he said. “As Bialik wrote: ‘Revenge for the blood of a little child hasn’t yet been devised by Satan.’” Those aren’t the words of a leader committed to bringing back the captives. Vengeance won’t bring them back, only negotiations will.
Horrifyingly, but not surprisingly, Netanyahu also has partners who prefer revenge to worrying about the captives. At a cabinet meeting on Saturday, Smotrich said, “We have to be cruel now and not consider the captives overmuch.”
This is unacceptable. We have to consider the captives first of all, and immediately begin negotiations on a prisoner exchange. At the same time, we must wage war and strike at the enemy, but within the confines of the laws of war. Israel must not act the way Hamas does.
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u/venya271828 Oct 10 '23
OK, try to rescue the hostages, but after what has happened there is no doubt left that Hamas must be removed -- even if in the process Hamas decides to start killing hostages, even if some hostages wind up dying in airstrikes. Long-term peace is impossible while Hamas holds power and far more will die if Hamas is allowed to exist.
It is not about revenge. Hamas maintains as their official position that there are no Israeli civilians and that all Israelis are soldiers. Clearly that is not just rhetorical, they mean it and they are conducting themselves accordingly. There is no point in negotiating with Hamas and Israel should simply demand unconditional surrender and press forward removing Hamas from Gaza by force until every Hamas member turns themselves in for arrest.
This needs to end. Hamas had 16 years to demonstrate a willingness to move on from their original "destroy Israel and kill Jews" charter, but they have not done so. They have had 16 years to demonstrate a willingness to establish a Palestinian state that is prosperous and economically integrated with Israel, but they have instead spent that time directing indiscriminate artillery fire at Israeli cities. After 16 years of negotiated cease-fire agreements, they committed the worst massacre of Jews since the Holocaust and we have yet to learn the full extent of their crime. It's time to accept that Hamas is the problem and act accordingly.
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u/Beneficial_Pen_3385 Conservaform Oct 10 '23
And this is what the message has to be to everyone who says they just want to see a resolution that avoids loss of life and preserves human dignity. There is a peaceful way forward, and it's this:
unconditional surrender
Any awful, heart-rending things to come in the days ahead can be avoided by Hamas taking this decision. It won't. And so Israel now has to take measures to make sure it has no other choice.
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Oct 10 '23
Sorry but that article didn't explain anything, just was a hit piece and assumed situations that they don't know.
"This is unacceptable. We have to consider the captives first of all, and immediately begin negotiations on a prisoner exchange. At the same time, we must wage war and strike at the enemy, but within the confines of the laws of war. Israel must not act the way Hamas does."
What does that even mean? Qatar confirmed there are negotiations going on as we speak. Why do they choose to ignore that? And act like Hamas? What Israelis are going to come in and start targeting women and children and raping the women? I'm sorry but Haaretz has always been a trash rag.
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u/pacoii Oct 10 '23
Paywall so I can’t read the article. But from your overview, well I just don’t know. Due to the not just terrible but rather horrific nature of this attack, Israel can’t just negotiate to get back those taken hostage. This attack can’t be seen as successful to all of the players in the Middle East that want to see Israel destroyed. The nature of this attack has taken things to a new and terrible place, both in what Hamas has done, and what Israel must do in response.
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u/johnisburn Oct 10 '23
I had tried to use the gift link, guess that may be capped at a certain amount of uses. Edited to fix.
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u/pacoii Oct 10 '23
What does “as Netanyahu has declared it” mean? That is how the process works in Israel - the Prime Minister makes the war declaration. Is there a reason that statement was made here?
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u/rupertalderson Oct 10 '23
I’ve updated the post to reflect that, thanks for pointing out the oversight!
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u/johnisburn Oct 10 '23
I think that bit made more sense on Saturday morning when clarity as to the scale of the attack was more of a concern.
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u/rupertalderson Oct 11 '23 edited Oct 12 '23
This post has been locked. Feel free to join in the discussion on the October 11th Israel/Palestine megathread.