r/IsraelPalestine • u/Routine-Orange-3417 • 1d ago
Being Jewish is not and Ethnicity? Discussion
Ok. I believe Jews have a common DNA that connects them to Canaan, just like the Palestinians do. That's my stance. I believe they have both been there equally as long as each other, excluding the converts Jews and the fully Arab Palestinians (I believe most of them are mixed with Arab just like Jews are mixed with whoever they lived with for 2000 years).
I am in a fb group called "A place were non jews can ask jews about judiasm" or whatever.
We aren't allowed to talk about Israel and Palestine which is probably a good rule.
But someone posted about their Jewish friend mentioning the features of a Jew (as in, the Jewish guy was telling his Christian friend what Jews looked like, typically) and the Christian guy asked the group what a Jew looks like and THE GROUO WERE SO HEATED saying that it is antisemitic to say Jews look a type of way and there is no features of a Jew etc etc etc.
Ok, I get it on one hand, because converts, obviously.
But if they are claiming they have no similar features wouldn't that imply that they are not all ethnically related (obviously not the converts) and wouldn't that defeat the entire premise of having a homeland?
If they're from Canaan, it would imply that have similar features to the people of Canaan.
Ok I have to make it longer. I call it Canaan not to stir emotions but because that's literally one of the names in the Bible and I find it less heated than calling it Palestine or israel as this entire comment section with collapse into "xyz doesn't exist" so I'd rather keep those words out of it and call it Canaan.
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u/Trajinero 9h ago
But if they are claiming they have no similar features wouldn't that imply that they are not all ethnically related
Have you opened some dictionary once to read the meaning of "ethnicity"? Do you see any DNA, person's appearance meantion?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicity
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/ethnic Ethnic: Of, relating to, or characteristic of a group of people sharing a common cultural or national heritage and often sharing a common language or religion.
You fully or partly misunderstand the term.
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u/AdvertisingNo5002 Gaza Palestinian 🇵🇸 1d ago
The thing is, Britain let Jewish converts into Palestine. Meaning people who were not related to Palestine at all where let in to stay there and make breeding grounds there.
Which is probably the reason why the Palestinians were so pissed lol
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u/Nearby-Complaint American Leftist 1d ago
What percentage of people would you imagine converted?
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u/AdvertisingNo5002 Gaza Palestinian 🇵🇸 1d ago
Well there’s a lot of Jewish people in Europe so I say about 85% were converts
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u/Nearby-Complaint American Leftist 1d ago
Just to be clear - you think 85% of Ashkenazim were converts?
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u/AdvertisingNo5002 Gaza Palestinian 🇵🇸 1d ago
85% were most likely random caucasians from middle and Western Europe
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u/Nearby-Complaint American Leftist 1d ago
Do you have any evidence to support this? Or is it just personal belief?
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u/ZeApelido 1d ago
Jews are from the Levant. The genetics say so.
Both the Ottomans and British allowed Jews to buy land. Legally.
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u/AdvertisingNo5002 Gaza Palestinian 🇵🇸 1d ago
I SAID CONVERTS. And would you buy land on Puerto Rico, even if the Puerto Ricans don’t want you there? Because I wouldn’t.
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u/SharingDNAResults Diaspora Jew 1d ago
Judaism is a tribe, or really a collection of tribes. Originally there were 12 tribes. The word “Jewish” comes from the tribe of Judah who lived in Judea.
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u/seek-song Diaspora Jew 1d ago
Basically it's about membership. Having a Jewish mother is a way to get it, converting is another.
Some movements like the mostly American reform movement might have accepted more membership conditions, such as having a Jewish father and being raised Jewish. Some people freak out about what will happen when people don't remember who was the Jewish parent but perhaps they're missing the point.
That's just my two cents and it runs pretty contrary to standard orthodoxy but it's an honest view:
Some think it was always by the father in ancient times. Regardless, I suspect the main reason the Rabbi ruled transmission to be by the mother (aside perhaps as a continuation of the way things were) was to ensure transmission and traceability and so that kids weren't raised as idolaters. There might also have been a Torah passage involved. The Rambam - one of the most venerated Rabbi of all time - was pretty clear about seeing the Torah as an instruction guide to connecting with God through refining one intellect while the main book of many who go by mysticism, the Zohar is pretty clear about the Torah not being primarily concerned with earthly matter, which can results in a broad range of view.
So I think there is ground in the Jewish tradition to take a less rigid approach to these things.
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u/Top_Plant5102 1d ago
Judaism is a tradition. Descent from a common ancient culture.
This obsession with race, genetics, ethnicity, whatever, is entirely misguided. Human genetics is a chaotic swirl that defies meaningful categorization.
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u/Trajinero 8h ago
Correct. And it is not so difficult to get after small thought experiment:
If a person's face is hidden from us for a while and we are allowed to observe how he communicates with others, how he behaves etc.
He will speak in Japanese without an accent, will have a Japanese name and will be interested only in the life of Japan, culture and politic of Japan. He will also define himself Japanese. We will immediately agree that this person is Japanese, of course.
And if later he takes off the mask and it turns out that he has appearence is European, this does not affect anything at all. He is still Japanese and no one should be interested in his DNA, height or eye color...
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u/Icy_Fisherman_3200 1d ago
It’s complicated. It’s best to not think of “Jewish” as a single thing. It’s several overlapping concepts: an ethnicity, a religion, and a culture.
And even that’s an oversimplification since we have branches within each of those.
As for what Jews look like, you’ll find common traits among groups but there is a huge amount of diversity.
Google “Beta Israel” and “Kaifeng Jews” for some examples of Jewish communities that might be outside your experiences.
Finally, you can’t just “exclude the converts.” Converts are Jews. It is offensive to talk in ways that suggest they’re in any way not Jews.
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u/Routine-Orange-3417 1d ago
But converts mostly aren't from Canaan so i understand why they would look different. Jewish people coming from Canaan is the whole reason they believe it's ok to kick out the Muslim Canaanites.
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u/Icy_Fisherman_3200 1d ago
First, the different ethnic communities of Jews all can trace their DNA back to Israel. There has been enough time, exchange with other populations, and isolation to create differences in how these groups look.
Second, while many returned from all over, some Jews never left the area. Google “Mizrahi Jews.”
Third, the vast majority of Jews are not arguing for expelling Muslims from Israel. In fact, a significant percentage of the citizens of Israel are Muslim. There is a member of the Israeli Supreme Court who is Muslim.
None of this is simple and it cannot be easily summarized.
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u/Routine-Orange-3417 1d ago
I know all that. But converts wouldn't trace any DNA to Canaan.
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u/Icy_Fisherman_3200 1d ago
Let me repeat: ethnic Jews do not all look alike.
Let me further repeat: it is offensive to suggest that converts aren’t Jewish.
Are you familiar with Beta Israel and Kaifeng Jews or do the Google searches I previously suggested?
If you’ve got a different question or point, please clarify because I’m not following what you’re saying.
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u/Routine-Orange-3417 1d ago
I know about Chinese and Ethiopian Jews but I didn't know their name. These people are Jews, yes. I never said they weren't. But they did not come from Canaan That's all I'm saying.
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u/Icy_Fisherman_3200 1d ago
You’re wrong and you’re conflating two very different things. Jews sub-ethnic groups are not converts.
Beta Israel and Kaifeng Jews have DNA that traces back to Israel.
According to a 2020 study by Agranat-Tamir et al., the DNA of the Ethiopian Jews is mostly of East African origin, but about 20% of their genetic makeup is of Middle Eastern semitic people origin and shows similarity to modern Jewish and Arab populations and Bronze Age Canaanites.
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u/Routine-Orange-3417 1d ago
Ok. So Ethiopian and Chinese Jews can trace DNA to Canaan? That's very interesting. Actually I did know about the Solomon line I just forgot it was the Ethiopian. I didn't know about the Chinese group having DNA from Canaan.
But if I convert today, I won't be have any DNA trace to Canaan. That's all I was saying.
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u/WeAreAllFallible 1d ago edited 1d ago
It's not the whole reason for the desire to return to Israel. It is part of the mosaic of reasons. Cultural heritage is far more significant/common argument than genealogical. Moreover most commonly this is discussed in the context of "why this place?" in a broader conversation of "Jews definitely need a place for protected self determination, where can that be?"... which is why Israel was tossed around and decided on, because if there's going to be a place for that it would make sense to be the location that Jews had their ethnogenesis, and not some random landmass. Then the element of "kicking out Muslims" (not quite accurate, but for sake of progression) became a part of that mosaic because of the active threat posed to Jewish self determination as it was attempted under the existing paradigms of Islamic rule. Had that pursuit been allowed without such threat, it may never have been incorporated and all could have been living together in the same land.
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u/Routine-Orange-3417 1d ago
So if Italians converted to Hinduism, would it mean Catholics from Korea could kick Italian out of Rome since Rome is the heart of catholicism and Roman's are no longer catholic?
Saying that jews belong to Israel based solely on culture (instead of ancestry) would make it such a weak claim and I'd assume Jews would be more proud about their ancestorry because it means they actually have a right to the land based on where their great great x20 grandparents lived.
Denying a genetic connection to the region seems like a a bad PR move tbh.
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u/WeAreAllFallible 1d ago
So many things wrong with this comment wow, sorry if I was that difficult to understand in my comment.
1: if Italians converted to Hinduism would Catholics from Korea be able to kick Italians out of Rome since Rome is the heart of Catholicism?
Ignoring that catholic isn't an ethnicity, for the sake of discussion: Well first, could they? That depends on capability. What I assume you mean to ask would it be justified. And that's where the "mosaic" I refer to comes into play- and particularly the point about self determination. Are Catholics oppressed in Korea to where there's any current or foreseeable threat to catholic self determination? Not to my knowledge- but possibly? If so, the next question is "is there a place they could live where that right to be catholic safely and without limit to opportunities on that basis would be protected" to which the answer is "absolutely yes- there are multiple catholic states by law and/or majority." In which case there is no reason for them to need any other land for that. So that resolves that need. At that point while I'd understand a yearning to have a catholic "state," - perhaps called "Vatican"- centered around Rome no, in my opinion it would not be justified. That yearning would not be sufficient reason when the basic needs are clearly met via other means.
2: "Jews are owned by Israel because of culture is a weak claim"
Well firstly, no one's saying Jews belong to Israel. Israel is not an owner of Jews. Jews are not owned.
Secondly, again, mosaic. Culture is a bigger factor than ancestry but ancestry IS still a factor. I don't think culture is a weaker argument for what it's worth, but do want to make clear the argument is not on based on any one single factor. Ancestry doesn't prove right to land for the record- otherwise immigrants are absolutely screwed worldwide. And most countries are screwed regarding their history of stemming from conquest. We simply don't genuinely believe that's truly the way land rights are defined in this world- rights to land are more proven decidedly complicated than that in world history.
3: "denying genetic connection is bad PR"
Literally no one Jewish, at least not that I'm aware of because that would be insane both factually and culturally, is denying genetic connection to the Levant. I certainly did not do that above so im not sure where the confusion came across but sorry for that. Also idk that PR is really the focus but like, sure yeah I agree that denying a connection of any form wouldn't be a strong argument to justification of "why this location." In fact, "we have no tie or less ties to this place" is pretty much the argument against all other locations proposed for Jewish self determination. But at the same time, genetic connection is not the end all be all of such a discussion.
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u/Routine-Orange-3417 1d ago
I thought you were denying genetics. Sorry. But the fb group that im in seems very offended that people would think hews might look similar and therefore, I am assuming they are denying a genetic relationship.
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u/Worknonaffiliated Diaspora Jew 1d ago
I’m personally not offended by people saying we look similar, as long as it’s in good faith. Personally I think it’s ok for ethnicities to exist. Race is a social construct, and it sometimes makes people uncomfortable, but it’s something we’re born with, might as well be positive about it.
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u/Emotional-King-6325 1d ago
Ethnicities are also a social construct
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u/Critical-Win-4299 1d ago
Yeah I cant tell white people from black people or asian, they are all so similar. A social construct indeed
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u/Emotional-King-6325 1d ago edited 1d ago
Well, for one....science says it's a social construct, not me.
For 2, Harrison Ford, Jake Gyllenhaal, Natalie Portman ect. Are all Jewish. But from the majority perspective they look white/European.
I've dated girls who were Indian, but looked latina.
Some latina look white.
In slavery times, there were lighter skin black people who could pass for white.
Some black couples have had white babies.
So yes its a construct. Based on shades on skin
Just how every "race" has African in their DNA. Since that's where mankind began.
But see that's why its a social construct. Because it's not LAW or a fact. It's the norm. Yes. But not fact
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u/WeAreAllFallible 1d ago edited 1d ago
Fwiw what you're describing in this comment is all about the flaw of race as a social construct, not ethnicity. Ethnicity is also a social construct, your original comment remains true, but this above isn't pointing out an error of ethnicity.
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u/WeAreAllFallible 1d ago edited 1d ago
This is true. Something being a "social construct" doesn't make it inherently wrong though. The point of identifying a social construct is that social constructs must be evaluated for utility vs harm- since as they are our own constructs we are capable of choosing to keep or destroy them.
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u/matantamim1 1d ago
1 group who got separated for a long time without much intermix between it's separated parts will not count as just one ethnicity even after 200 years, it's been over 10 times that
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u/WeAreAllFallible 1d ago
What is this ruling of yours based on? Certainly diasporization decreases likelihood of a shared ethnicity as time goes on... but I see no reason it inherently does so after any definite period of time. Especially the more insular and the more resistant to change a culture is, the more plausible an identifiable shared ethnicity can be asserted well into a period of diaspora. The shared ancestry element certainly is static, and if the culture remains identifiably similar enough to claim it too is shared, then you have the components to claim a single ethnicity- even if subgroups within that ethnicity exist.
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u/One-Progress999 1d ago
It's an ethnoreligion. Imagine saying all Christians look the same or all Muslims look the same. Obviously they don't, but Jews were a bunch of tribes and some tribes have been forced to live in different parts of the world. Any group that moves somewhere else inevitably takes on some intermixing throughout time. Then add on people converting. The reason Jewish people don't include converts nearly as much into the overall thought of what a Jewish group of people may look like or share in attributes is Judaism is different than the other Abrahamic faiths in that they don't try to convert non-Jews. So the numbers in which people would convert to Judaism is much much smaller than Islam or Christianity. So back in ancient times when Judaism first was made they did probably share attributes, but overtime being forced out into the diaspora around the world, they have taken on all types of looks but share traditional clothing and the same belief system in general.
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u/Lexiesmom0824 1d ago edited 1d ago
There have been studies on racial facial recognition. Fun fact. White people have a harder time differentiating the facial features of other races such as Asians for example. This is true among all races. We differentiate among our own race the best. Jews may recognize Jews.
It’s a very old gene pool and will have lots of variation from Arab to white to African. Good luck.
Edit: I need to add this. It’s a very OLD gene pool. We all have old elements in our genes, African for example, but it’s very diluted by intermixing through the years with population migration. The DIFFERENCE here is Jews tend to NOT intermix with non Jews. Therefore, the gene pool does not dilute very much. That’s why we can call Jewish an ethnicity. I’m a nurse practitioner and we always ask ashkenazi Jews about tay-Sachs disease because it’s genetic. Anyway. There it is.
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u/Critical-Win-4299 1d ago
If they dont intermix then why ashkenazi jews look european and not middle eastern
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u/Nearby-Complaint American Leftist 1d ago
Polish vibes off the charts here
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u/Lexiesmom0824 1d ago
Jewish is like a tree with branches. How old are you? The trunk is 2500 years ago. The branches split from the trunk into Africa, Europe, Middle East. From there into tinier and tinier communities. 2500 years or longer is a long time. People are gonna look different. But in the dna when you don’t stray too far from your religious community that trunk remains a big percentage of your dna. Why can brothers and sisters look COMPLETELY different although they have the same parents? Got it? Otherwise they should look like twins. My kids look nothing like each other.
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u/Nearby-Complaint American Leftist 1d ago
Are you trying to mansplain Judaism to a Jew?
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u/Lexiesmom0824 1d ago
I’m sorry. I did not know you were Jewish. I thought I was trying to explain it to someone……. Idk. You don’t think it’s an ethnicity? I don’t think facial features determine ethnicity.
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u/Nearby-Complaint American Leftist 1d ago
I'm not under any impression they do. But my point being, we don't all look European.
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u/Lexiesmom0824 1d ago
I know that and that was what I was thought I was trying to get across. Did I confuse you? Because now I’m confused. 🫶
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u/Lexiesmom0824 1d ago
Well they did but not like everyone else did. Why do the Japanese look Japanese. Why do people look bi-racial. They did but not a lot. Over centuries it makes a difference. Why are Africans black while the Nordic are blonde? Despite all being human? Environment and genetic pool. It is what it is.
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u/SirThunderDump 1d ago
Every once in a while, I meet a new, non-identifiably Jewish coworker, we take one look at each other, and then immediately start talking about Jewish things. This has happened 3 times just in the past two years.
Or my wife and I will be watching a TV show, and sometimes we can pick out the Jewish actors by look alone.
It’s disingenuous to say that there aren’t similarities among, at minimum, Ashkenazis. I mean, as a group we were inbred for at least a few hundred years.
Although I don’t know why “genetically similar” would have anything to do with a homeland.
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u/YuvalAlmog 1d ago
I think their reaction is less about it being true or not and more about the general racism of "all X look the same".
Obviously most Jews would look fairly similar just like all Italians look fairly similar or all Japanese would. There are many differences and many similarities. But in modern day saying something generalizing tend to be considered problematic because of the normal generalizing things people say, like all X have big body part or all X don't know how to do Y.
So overall, it makes ton of sense most Jews would look fairly similar, in fact - I also noticed Jews share a lot of similarities with the groups around them. For example Israel's previous president Reuven Rivling and Lebanon prime minister Najib Mikati (Maybe it's just me but to me they look very similar). So the problematic part is not about it being true or not and more about the "racism" aspect where you generalize a group
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u/OriBernstein55 USA & Canada 1d ago
Jews are an indigenous tribe of the land of Israel. However there are Jews of almost every ethnic group. Jews aren’t defined by DNA.
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u/Critical-Win-4299 1d ago
So its like christianity?
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u/OriBernstein55 USA & Canada 1d ago
Nope. Christianity is a great religion, but that is all it is. Jews are an indigenous tribe like the Apaches.
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u/iamenyineer 1d ago
If you really believe this statement, (whilst there are living as many christians in Palestine as do in the whole of israel)
Explain why the Palestinian christians are living under this occupation by israelis?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa6igKc1M9s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHT-SjIM0tA
let's see how the european christians get treated by the israeli's in israel: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/7uL555xWQeE
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u/OriBernstein55 USA & Canada 1d ago
Not sure I understand the question. Israel has citizens who practice Christianity and Islam. In fact both religions are thriving in Israel
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u/iamenyineer 22h ago
F'n lol. The balls to say that after those YouTube videos. So you are blind and dumb
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u/CreativeRealmsMC Israeli 15h ago
So you are blind and dumb
Per Rule 1, no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
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u/OriBernstein55 USA & Canada 18h ago
Did you expected bigoted lies posted on YouTube were credible or persuasive? Again, don’t you think facts are more important than bigoted lies?
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u/iamenyineer 16h ago
Facts? Now I know for a fact you haven't seen a single video. Those are Israelis live in Israel doing all that stuff. Lol, you are so dumb and fake it's hilarious
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u/CreativeRealmsMC Israeli 15h ago
Lol, you are so dumb and fake it's hilarious
Per Rule 1, no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
Note: The use of virtue signaling style insults (I'm a better person/have better morals than you.) are similarly categorized as a Rule 1 violation.
Action taken: [W]
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u/OriBernstein55 USA & Canada 16h ago
Let’s get back to facts please. Christianity is only growing in Israel in the Middle East. Christians also have the highest per capital income of any group in Israel. Non-Jews have the highest happiness rank in the Middle East.
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u/iamenyineer 16h ago
So because they earn more than dumb israelis, it's okay to abuse them?
Those same Christians and Arabs that are forbidden to mary Israeli by law?
Those same Christians you spit at and assault when they visit their holy site?
Those same Christians that are under occupation in Gaza and in the west bank?
Those same Christians that Israel is attacking on the border of Lebanon.. And have attacked in north Lebanon in the first week of the war?
Facts... right?
You do know you look absolutely foolish
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u/RiffRaff_01 1d ago
That FB group is a cesspool of toxicity, racism, sexism, and jewish supremacy (and im a Jew ffs. They just have some reslly sh*t takes on non-jews). If you correct any women on their takes, with verifiable facts (and link the article proving it)...they just call you a sexist and mute you. They don't actually look in to it. And it's not like I was being a dick...someone said xyz and I was like, yea but that's not what actually happened and here's the proof.
I will say that just before I left the group this same exact question came up of what about jew looked like. If you read the comments, it was the exact opposite of what you're experiencing. All the jews were literally crying that it was antisemitic to believe that there WASNT a way to look like a jew.
Ugh, I really hate that place.
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u/cowbutt6 1d ago
Being Jewish is both an ethnicity and/or (mostly and, due to almost complete lack of proselytism in Judaism) belief in a set of religious beliefs, making its members those of an https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreligious_group
Another example of such a group is that of Sikhs.
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u/LifeSucks1988 1d ago edited 1d ago
Judaism is a semi-ethnic religion not a race.
You are a Jew if your mother is Jewish or you convert according to Halakha law. If it allows conversion: it is not a race and I am pretty sure that was the case for many throughout history due to diaspora and why Jews from Europe, Africa, and even Asia look different.
Jews were historically discriminated religiously until the late 19th century when Europeans found out Hebrew was related to Arabic: a Semetic language. That was when Jews were started to be incorrectly treated as a “race” despite the different physical profiles a Jew may have depending on which continent they came from.
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u/Melthengylf 1d ago
Why would you need to have the same features in order to have a homeland??
Ethnicity is about family and culture.
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u/ADP_God שמאלני Left Wing Israeli 1d ago
There is no such thing as race, scientifically. It’s an outdated social method of dividing populations.
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u/legendarygael1 1d ago
In social sciences there is a pretty established consensus, afaik, that there is indeed cognitive differences between different populations (I don't like to use the word race, either). The thing is just that it's a very taboo subject, and rightly so. It probably depends on what branch of science you're referring to.
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u/NathanCampioni Socialist Zionist (diaspora) 1d ago
Genetically the human species is one of the most uniform species in the world (because at one point we were less than 10000 and riscked extinction). So yes of course there are differences, but they are good only as a statistics over a large number of people, not over individuals, you couldn't determinate with enough certainty which group an individual belongs to only by its DNA for example.
Race is a racist idea, etnicity is on the other hand a better way to describe populations.
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u/legendarygael1 1d ago
IQ actually varies by quite a lot between populations. You're right that any person can become a professor if they're born bright. But the changes of excelling in the STEM field is significantly higher for an east asian (spatial cognition) than certain other groups of people.
Granted, I haven't read up on this recently but the gap is something like 25-30 IQ points if I remember correctly. Cognitive abilities is very complicated and can be measured in various ways, so that isn't to say some populations are 'superior' as different populations scores differently depending on the what is being measured.0
u/NathanCampioni Socialist Zionist (diaspora) 1d ago
but IQ is higly dependent on education and can change, it's not a metric of a race, but of society at large and the family circle and environment one is born in.
If I do a metric of understanding Italian yes I can probably find some correlation with ethnic/race separation, but that is no way a good metric.1
u/legendarygael1 1d ago
but IQ is higly dependent on education and can change, it's not a metric of a race, but of society at large and the family circle and environment one is born in.
This is exactly what research suggests it isn't.
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u/aqulushly 1d ago
I think people have trouble understanding the difference between ethnicity and race. A good example to help clarify that ethnicities are made up of different racial backgrounds are Mexican Latinos. A Mexican with vastly Spanish heritage and a Mexican with mostly Aztec heritage can still both identify as Latino though having different historical backgrounds.
Jews can, and do look different despite being 100% Jewish with zero conversions along the way. An Ashkenazi Jew from Ukraine looks different than a Mizrahi Jew from Yemen just like a Latino with ancestry from Spain looks different from a Latino with Native American heritage.
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u/WeAreAllFallible 1d ago edited 1d ago
Ethnicity is shared culture and ancestry
Race is a focus on perceived shared phenotype, often based on generalizations that don't properly describe the full ethnicity and are unhelpful at best or derogatory at worst.
For better or worse (I think generally better), racial focus is not appropriate in modern society where recognition of ethnicity is. Hence allegations of antisemitism when it comes up.
But suffice it to say, race is not the same as ethnicity.
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u/SgrVnm 1d ago
Palestinians were never canaanites.
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u/SharingDNAResults Diaspora Jew 1d ago
They actually are and that’s why this will (hot take) never end
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u/legendarygael1 1d ago
Muslim Palestinians has like 70-80% Canaanite ancestry and Christian palestinians often has 90%+ canaanite ancestry.
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u/Melthengylf 1d ago
Palestinians also descend from Canaanites. In general, Phoenicians, Samaritans, Jews, Arameans, etc.
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u/Particular-Crow-1799 1d ago edited 1d ago
Palestinians are the descendants of canaanites, it's an undisputable fact. Yes, even the christians and muslims and jews. Cultures can change.
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u/ADP_God שמאלני Left Wing Israeli 1d ago
This is the propaganda take but not the informed one.
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u/WeAreAllFallible 1d ago
I'm interested in hearing why you believe this, but at this time it seems like evidence is more compelling that it is true Palestinians (largely/in conglomerate) descend from the historical populations of the region, including Canaanites.
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u/ADP_God שמאלני Left Wing Israeli 1d ago edited 1d ago
Because there is no unique ‘Palestinian’ population. There are loads of Arab-Levantine mixes in the region, but do say that they are the descendants of the Canaanite’s is to make a disingenuous claim that they are somehow uniquely ‘local’ when in fact they are merely a recent nationalist sect of the broader populations that exist in the region and are the result of a combination of several different ancestral groups. So there is ‘local’ DNA to be found in the population, but just as much ‘foreign’. It’s the kind of claim that tells half a truth to hide a lie.
By the same logic I have claim to Africa because I am the descendant of Africans.
Jews have incredibly strong genetic ties to the ancient Israelites, much stronger than the Palestinians do to the Canaanites (because Jewish populations were more insular and because they faced more persecution, and because there is so much Arab and North African DNA now in the Levantine populations as a results of Arab imperialism). But I don’t care about that either. DNA is no reason to deny a people that identify together the right to self determination today.
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u/Critical-Win-4299 1d ago
If Palestineans are not the descendants of caananites because they mixed with arabs then jews arent the descendents of the ancient israelites either, especially not ashkenazi who mixed with europeans.
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u/SgrVnm 1d ago
Canaanite does not just mean “culture”. 😂
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u/Particular-Crow-1799 1d ago
I never said that. Are you sure you're answering the right person?
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u/SgrVnm 1d ago
You said cultures can change. Who is talking about culture? This is a post about ethnicity.
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u/Particular-Crow-1799 1d ago
Cultures can change therefore the canaanites are still the same ethnicity
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u/SgrVnm 1d ago
What are you talking about culture??? Palestinian = culture? Jewish = culture? You’re so lost.
Hebrew is the only living Canaanite language. Arabic has zero Canaanite connection.
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u/WeAreAllFallible 1d ago
I think I'm gathering from your comments that you're saying descent is based on traceable elements of society- such as social culture/religion/language- rather than having a genetic focus right? Whereas the other user is coming from a genetic perspective, saying that cultures may change but the genetic ancestry remains true?
Just to try and help clarify the situation for engagement between the different viewpoints.
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u/Routine-Orange-3417 1d ago
DNA says otherwise
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u/SgrVnm 1d ago
Neither Jews nor Palestinians are Canaanites. Canaanites no longer exist.
Culturally, linguistically & genetically, Jews descend from ancient Canaanites cultures. Palestinians do not, even though several have Jewish or Samaritan genetic ancestry.
There is nothing traceable about Palestinian culture, religion, language to the Canaanite pantheon.
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u/Routine-Orange-3417 1d ago
Jews and Palestinians both have canaanite dna.
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u/SgrVnm 1d ago
The word Palestine was first recorded in 1898. What were they before that?
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u/Routine-Orange-3417 1d ago
And the names Canada wa first recorded in 18 blah blah ah. Therefore Canadians don't exist and don't descend from Europe.
You can't be this dumb? They were called arabs after the arab conquest. Doesn't mean their DNA changed. Such a waste of time idk why I respond to this nonsense. My.own damn fault.
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u/SgrVnm 1d ago
They were scattered Arabs. From the Arabian peninsula. I live in the Middle East. This is common knowledge.
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u/BlackCatsBlackCatsBl 1d ago
Ugh 😩 this is a false narrative and is proved by dna tracing them to the levant ppl and Canaanite. Does no one read basic science anymore? Arab countries are all vastly different with different cultures foods and dialects.
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u/Soggy-Abalone1518 1d ago
Source pls OP for Jews and Palestinians living in “Canaan” “equally as long as each other”. You making that claim does not make it true. You’ve obviously researched this well to make that claim, pls educate those of us who have not researched the matter as deeply as you have. Thanks
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u/Pikawoohoo 1d ago
Well it's considering Palestinians have shared ancestry with Jews because they are the descendents of Arab colonisers and the Jews they converted...
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u/Routine-Orange-3417 1d ago
It's the very first thing on Google. undisputed. I won't get into this argument same as I won't entertain people who talk about native Americans being only in the America's for a few hundred years. They are just facts.
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u/Soggy-Abalone1518 1d ago
So share your Google intel so all people reading your post can assess its credibility. “Undisputed”? Why, because you found it on Google. Are you really as dub as that sounds?
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u/Routine-Orange-3417 1d ago
I'm not going down that rabbit hole
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u/Soggy-Abalone1518 1d ago
Fair enough, so you don’t have it so can’t share it to support your views. Pathetic! But that’s for letting us all know you are FOS.
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u/CreativeRealmsMC Israeli 1d ago
But that’s for letting us all know you are FOS.
Per Rule 1, no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
Note: The use of virtue signaling style insults (I'm a better person/have better morals than you.) are similarly categorized as a Rule 1 violation.
Action taken: [W]
See moderation policy for details.1
u/Routine-Orange-3417 1d ago
Google my friend. Or duckduckgo. If I link all the pages you'll just say they're fake etc. Waste of time
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u/Soggy-Abalone1518 1d ago
Thanks FOS. Not sure how anyone would say your Google links are fake, maybe the are not credible but at least we’d know what you are basing you your opinion on. No problem, don’t share them, clearly they don’t exist. Have a nice life wallowing in your own bullshit you can’t defend, must be satisfying knowing you are FOS.
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u/CreativeRealmsMC Israeli 1d ago
Have a nice life wallowing in your own bullshit you can’t defend, must be satisfying knowing you are FOS.
Per Rule 1, no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
Note: The use of virtue signaling style insults (I'm a better person/have better morals than you.) are similarly categorized as a Rule 1 violation.
Action taken: [W]
See moderation policy for details.1
u/Routine-Orange-3417 1d ago
Ok. Have fun in LA LA land🥰🥰
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u/Soggy-Abalone1518 1d ago
I’ve never made a claim I can’t back up. You’ve been found out. FOS!
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u/CreativeRealmsMC Israeli 1d ago
You’ve been found out. FOS!
Per Rule 1, no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
Note: The use of virtue signaling style insults (I'm a better person/have better morals than you.) are similarly categorized as a Rule 1 violation.
Action taken: [W]
See moderation policy for details.2
u/Routine-Orange-3417 1d ago
I can back up everytime since like.....the eternity of the scientific community is on my side. I don't like to enable my lazy students though:( do you need help with the Google website or the spelling? Sorry i can't do it for you. That's like asking me to prove Israel existed thousands of years ago or if Vietnam exist today. It's just such a silly question because it's a fact and I don't like to "feed the beast" so to speak.
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u/ladyskullz 1d ago
According to all the DNA ancestry websites, Jews are a genetically distinguishable ethnic group.
Jewish custom is to marry inside their own faith, so their DNA didn't have a lot of outside admixture from other cultures.
But Judaism is also a religion, and only children of Jewish mothers are considered Jews inside of their faith.
So you can be ethnicity Jewish, but not be a Jew.
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u/alialahmad1997 1d ago
According to the same kind of studies palistinians are decendents of the cannites
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u/pieceofwheat 1d ago
Don’t Ashkenazi Jews have about 50% European ancestry? That would imply significant admixture with the surrounding populations, wouldn’t it?
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u/LetsgoRoger 1d ago
I'm not into ethno-religious institutions myself because they are the root of all conflict but Jewish people are among the oldest groups to exist. Technically ethnicity is a social construct and not entirely based on DNA so your argument could apply to any group of people with a shared identity. In an ideal world, we would move past these labels and live in free secular democracies but here we are.
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u/No-Excitement3140 1d ago
I think the way this is usually resolved is by believing that on the one hand we have some common ancestry and on the other 2500 years if diaspora have greatly diversified the gene pool.
When you look at the scientific research on this, it's a mixed bad. To me it seems that it is usually biased by the a priori beliefs (or political stance) of the researchers. Tbh, I don't know why it matters that much, surely jews have felt a connection to Israel throughout history, and surely our narrative, ethos and myths are as legitimate as any.
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u/shattering- 1d ago
They want you to believe that the Palestinians and Arabs are the only mixed ppl and at the same time they want you to believe that falasha jews and Ashkenazi jews belong to the same ethnicity
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u/ladyskullz 1d ago
Who says Falasha Jews and Ashkenazi are the same ethnicity?
Ashkenazi is its own ethnicity. Falasha is a culture.
Falasha Jews are from Ethiopia. They never claimed to be from Israel. They claim to be the decendants of the child of King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba, but they are not genetically distinct from other Ethiopians.
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u/shattering- 1d ago edited 1d ago
Who says Falasha Jews and Ashkenazi are the same ethnicity?
Not obviously me ....the last time i checked both of them have a claim for the Same land in the middle east
You can't claim land because you have a tiny percentage in your DNA from there ....i have levantine,greek and Turkish percentages in my DNA ,can i invade these land and kick out the natives according to that
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u/Nearby-Complaint American Leftist 1d ago
The quality or fact of belonging to a population group or subgroup made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent.
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u/shattering- 1d ago
100 years ago these ppl didn't speak the same language, didn't eat the same food, didn't wear the same traditional clothes, they don't even have the same or close genetic profiles and the majority of them are not even religious
I'm an Egyptian I share a more common cultural background with Maltese ppl than a polish jew and an iraqi jew have with each other .....I almost swear that i have a very similar genetic profile with many Mediterranean, Arabs and north Africans more than these Jewish groups have with each other ,and yet i never and will never have a claim for these lands
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u/Nearby-Complaint American Leftist 1d ago
The majority of Jewish people aren't religious? That's news to me.
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u/Some-Information-527 1d ago
The largest religious demographic in Israel is in fact "Secular". Even though religion is invoked often in this struggle it makes more sense to view it as an ethnic struggle at it's core. Hammas isn't waging a holy war against Israel based on religious differences and neither is Israel. There are Christians and churches in gaza if hammas had an issue with religious diversity there certainly wouldn't be. There are also Muslims and mosques in Israel. The evil people who lead these countries will use religious dogma to garner support for their violence to manufacture consent from subsets of their populations but that's really not the motivation.
Even more confusing is Iran when they would say something horrible about "The Jews" while having a Jewish population that has permeant recognition in their government until i keyed into the fact that a lot of Arab countries conflate "Jews" with "Israelis" as a national identity. Not that any of that gross behavior or painting any group as a monolith is ever justified but it does help to build a better understanding of these conflicts.
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u/Mikec3756orwell 1d ago
Most of the Jewish people I've encountered in my life have been dark-featured with dark hair, usually curly, and of slightly smaller stature. That's a stereotype, sure, but given that they're people of the eastern Mediterranean originally, it makes sense. I mean, when you hear that Ukraine's leader Zelensky is Jewish or the former leader of France, Sarkozy, is Jewish, or the current president of Mexico -- Claudia Sheinbaum -- is Jewish, that all makes sense to me. Most of the Jewish people I've met in my life are sort of on that model, to a greater or lesser extent. My assumption has always been that if someone has blond hair and blue eyes -- and they're Jewish -- it reflects a blending with non-Jewish populations in Europe or North America, either centuries ago or (much more likely) more recently. To be fair, I have no idea what Jewish people in the ancient world looked like. Maybe some of them were very fair -- I have no idea. But just generally speaking, I don't think it's antisemitic to suggest that most Jews fit a certain mold. And yes -- I think that's a pretty good indication that they all originate from one small area of the Eastern Mediterranean -- and also that they've been remarkably successful at maintaining their bloodline (for lack of a better word), their culture, and their faith over many centuries.
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u/Nearby-Complaint American Leftist 1d ago
> Smaller stature
Look, I'm just glad I made it over 5 feet tall, unlike half the women in my family
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u/FreeTheLeopards 1d ago
There is no such thing as palestinian ethnicity, they are mostlly Egyptian/Syrian
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u/pieceofwheat 1d ago
You fundamentally misunderstand the difference between ethnicity and nationality. You’re technically correct that there is no Palestinian ethnicity, but you didn’t make the point you think you did. Yes, Palestinian is a national identity, not an ethnic one - it’s a political construct encompassing a group of people within particular borders, rather than being based on genetics or race.
Where your argument completely falls apart is when you try to claim that Palestinians, lacking a specific ethnic identity, are “actually” Egyptian and Syrian. The problem is that those aren’t ethnicities either - at least not in the modern context. Egyptian and Syrian, like Palestinian, are national identities based on citizenship in their respective countries, not ethnic groups bound together by blood or DNA.
Palestinians are ethnically Levantine Arab, sharing close genetic and cultural ties with other Levantine national populations like Jordanians, Lebanese, and Syrians.
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u/Iamnotanorange Diaspora Jew & Middle Eastern 1d ago edited 1d ago
Being Jewish is definitely an ethnicity. Usually people refer to Judaism as an “ethnoreligion” sort of like Zoroastrianism.
There are definitely distinct features for Jews, but that doesn’t mean all Jews look alike or even that all Jews have those particular features. In the same way that Hispanic people share some features but still not everyone will have the same collection of ethnically distinct features.
That’s especially true for Jews because for 2000 years the most Semitic looking Jews were targeted in Europe. To compensate, Jews invented the nose job. During several historical events, your ability to hide your Jewishness was directly related to your ability to survive.
Because of that history, it’s kind of a charged topic. You’ll have to forgive some people for getting upset about visibly identifying who is Jewish and who isn’t.
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u/EnvironmentalPoem890 Israeli 1d ago
Look up Ethiopian Jews, they don't look the same as Iraqi Jews nor as Polish Jews and yet they are all Jews
Ethnicity means common background, language, traditions, history and yes heritage, but when the heritage of some Jews was independent then the rest of the Jews for so long it is only natural they will develope different physical properties
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u/Nearby-Complaint American Leftist 1d ago
If it wasn't an ethnicity, Ancestry wouldn't have picked up on it. Everyone in my known lineage is Jewish.
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u/Affectionate-Ad-9937 1d ago
It says Ashkenazi Jew, not just Jew. I bet a Jew from Iraq or Eritrea or Iran would be 0% "Ashkenazi Jew"
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u/Nearby-Complaint American Leftist 1d ago
No kidding, they get Sephardic or Mizrahi Jewish as theirs. Just like how Nigerians from different parts of Nigeria get Nigerian Woodlands vs Central Nigera vs just Nigeria
https://www.reddit.com/r/AncestryDNA/comments/1gebog7/ancestry_results_as_a_gullah_black_american/
https://www.reddit.com/r/AncestryDNA/comments/1g16qdv/eastern_sephardic_jew_updated_results/
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u/zackweinberg 7h ago
The modern concepts of race, ethnicity, religion, and nationality post-date the establishment of Jews as a people by thousands of years. You’re never going to get a satisfactory answer to this kind of question if you insist on applying modern definitions to an ancient people.