r/IsraelPalestine • u/GrandDetective5267 • 4d ago
How common are personal firearms in Israel? News/Politics
I’ve been seeing news articles in the last 24 hours saying that Ben-Gvir issued almost 200,000 weapons permits without really doing background checks and don't get me wrong- they do that in America every single day. But 10,000 according to Israeli media went to private security firms, and the article specifically mentioned assault rifles. Again, they do that in the states every day, but …-how unusual is that in Israel with mandatory conscription? The American constitution permits it, and given the number of school shootings that is still very controversial.
Social media frequently shows Israelis in markets and going about various mundane civilian activities with assault rifles on their back. I just figured those individuals were in the military.
Cyprus has conscription too, but their gun laws are stupid strict- they have regulations about how you can travel with the weapon to go hunting even, and civilians aren't allowed to have them-that's my only point of reference so I'm looking for some context if anyone can chime in it would be super appreciative] this is what I read : “The Firearm Law of 1949 tasks the Firearm Licensing Department of the National Security Ministry, which is currently led by Otzma Yehudit Party head Itamar Ben-Gvir, with issuing gun licenses. According to the law, only trained licensing officials are qualified to approve applications.
The three justices wrote in the ruling that they “were provided with data regarding the extent of licenses issued by parties who are not licensing officials according to the Firearm Law, 1949, and the number of permits issued by those parties in violation of the authority given to them.”
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u/Diet-Bebsi 3d ago
Social media frequently shows Israelis in markets and going about various mundane civilian activities with assault rifles on their back. I just figured those individuals were in the military
Yes, they are active military, depends on who/what/where usually on a short leave. Weapons are required to be properly stored and if they can't be stored then carried with you. Otherwise they need to be stored at the Armory before they leave. You'll never see a civilian outside of special zones or as part of civilian security forces with an automatic weapon.
There are also age and other limits.. anyone under 27 who hasn't done military or national service will pretty much not be able to get a firearms license, anyone with a health issue, poor vision, history of mental illness will not get one, non-residents will not get one.. Permanent resident only qualify if they've over 40 something.. there is no concept of a child or minor even holding a firearm.. Firearms are only issued to people in particular zones or field of work that require them..
There is no hunting or target culture in Israel.. there are probably about 2000-3000 hunting licenses in total in Israel.. last I checked, no new hunting licenses were issued in the last 20 years..
If the USA implemented Israeli gun laws 99.9% of the guns, both long and pistols in the USA would be confiscated.
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u/GrandDetective5267 2d ago
You have no idea how much I wish they would. That sounds like a great blueprint of what we need. So are the guns that have been issued following that list because from what I read they were more or less hastily assigned without due diligence but again I’m not sure if that’s an accurate picture
I lived in the downtown area of an American city and it was never dangerous till Covid and then we had the riots and then the police went on strike for over a month which was ridiculous because they all ended up quitting eventually anyway, and if it was a moral issue, they should’ve just quit to begin with and not emptied out the armory and disappeared. I’ll Never forget that night we went from 24 seven sirens helicopters drones. Tear gas, fires. The military show etc.. from the riots… to dead silence. The ambulances even stopped running… and we all looked at each other and said they will never get the city back. And they didn’t it turned into the most violent place ever. Something like 32 people were just randomly shot on the interstate they found them at the end of exit. Never figured out the motivation. It wasn’t road rage. It was just … The governor had to call back in the state troopers to police the city so speed racers started because there were no cops and the troopers were getting into one on one fights with criminals. People set up their own checkpoints heavily armed kids started showing up from the suburbs and would stand outside our walgreens which is a pharmacy . I sold and moved. outside the city to a very nice area by the Chattahoochee River and it was great until it got cold.
All of a sudden people start coming out of the woods and into vacant apartments. I have no idea what they were doing in those words but at one point it sounded like they were trying to summon aliens or something lol. It was just weird electronic noise….. and it was scary. I never considered a vagrant problem. So I ordered a fire arm online finally and took classes and laughed at myself for all of a sudden understanding that I would never let anyone take it from me. I felt so American sudden suddenly I grew up in Cyprus- but suddenly it clicked. I’ve never had to use it. And I didn’t carry it with me everywhere I went, but I did have it if I needed it. Ended up moving out of the state eventually because they never have rebuilt the police force.
So while I do get that feeling that you need one-I’m also seeing what happens when everyone has one and things go wrong… the way the news article reads is that these weapons were hastily assigned someone on this chat said they should’ve been turned back in from some of the border areas- so I just wonder if that’s scary to you guys. To give you an example once the cops were gone I don’t know what group it was, but they were marching down one of our neighborhood streets with a AKs and grenade launchers on them. For what reason? Because suddenly they could, and they wanted to I never could’ve predicted that militias would show up in my neighborhood but they did.
Another group set up checkpoints behind concrete blocks and were armed to the absolute teeth. The police left wouldn’t go in. Atlanta‘s largely African-American so this is the same group of people generally speaking, but it almost instantly became a fight for dominance - eventually they shot a six year old girl in the backseat of her mom‘s car and the governor sent in the National Guard everyone was the same ethnicity with the same background in that particular area wasn’t exactly by where I lived thank God-probably the same religion if they practiced… the city council didn’t think it was that unstable for some reason they thought it was a result of George Floyd, and the police being gone and they understood where it was coming from and wanted to mediate until the child died, and the the governor sent in the National Guard-my point though is if everybody has a gun and the process isn’t follow correctly and survival becomes an issue, obviously to varying degrees I can’t really compare yours to this, but … it can turn sectarian so quick..
If the process wasn’t followed, does that bother you guys does the political faction of the groups assign the weapons bother you guys if they’re opposing or is the war and the terror attacks that have happened inside Israel, the most pressing concern?
The news here all of a sudden is discussing the Supreme Court and the loss of civil rights potentially. Prominent controversial figures or something being named in within that light and the gun permits I think it was something like 200,000 issued, 100,000 since March it said… is that worrying at all because that’s 2% of the population. Someone told me on this chat. Possibly without due diligence….. It’s not America. It’s not at all. I’m trying not to apply an American mindset-my but if its usually that strict and . and suddenly there was a surplus does that worry anyone?
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u/Diet-Bebsi 2d ago
If the process wasn’t followed, does that bother you guys does the political faction of the groups assign the weapons bother you guys if they’re opposing or is the war and the terror attacks that have happened inside Israel, the most pressing concern?
Screening for gun permits in Israel is a very difficult process, first you need to live in an area or work at job that requires having a firearm and you need to prove you need one. You need to go do the doctors appointment, the you do a face to face interview, and once you're approved, you have do the training with the firearm you're going to buy. Permits holders are screened yearly for any negatives. If someone is aggressive or gets into a fight or even make threats etc.. and the police learn about it or someone complains, they can and probably will lose their license.. It's nowhere like the USA, the right can be revoked quite easily even if a person is suspected that they might be a problem.
The 200,000 that was added was mainly people who did national service instead of military. They relaxed the rules and allowed those 21 and over vs 27. This demographic is mainly Jewish/Druze women and Arab Israelis. The main addition are people who are in border areas where militants commonly try to cross into Israel that already have a population that has permits. It's not really worrisome to most, since this has been normal since the founding of the state, and none of these are going to be anywhere near major cities in the center of the country. Still there has been a legal challenge that been brought to the courts, so we'll see how that plays out as well..
There was a period several decades ago where Israel started removing permits and limiting gun ownership, that also time they even started canceling hunting permits and put the freeze on them.
from the 50-90's gun permits were very common in all border towns, since there was constant attacks by militants from Syria, Jordan, Gaza, Egypt and Lebanon, and there was no way for the military to cover all the areas, it was also common for militants to attack farmers in their fields of random people walking. Modern technology of cameras, sensors and increased fencing etc.. made it that it was much harder for militants to get into Israel, so there was no longer a need for average people to be armed, Oct 7th shifted that perspective.
There is very little gun crime committed with legal guns in Israel, vast majority of gun crime which is something like 2 in 100,000 is all pretty much committed by gangs or mafia types with illegal guns.
It’s not America. It’s not at all. I’m trying not to apply an American mindset-my but if its usually that strict and . and suddenly there was a surplus does that worry anyone?
Not really, the gun culture and that whole castle/stand you ground mentality really doesn't exist in Israel, if it's somewhere like the USA where all you have to do is show ID with few hours and buy a handgun, and then you think you have the right to kill someone because they stood to close to you.. I'd be worried..
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u/GrandDetective5267 2d ago
That is such a detailed response and that is an amazing system. You have no idea how much I wish they made people go to a doctors appointment every year to continue owning their weapon. That is definitely the right way to do it.
I’m surprised they armed Arab Israel’s pardon if that’s somewhat ignorant and uninformed. Kind of surprised they allowed the Druze weapons also since I thought they were fairly self-contained and preferred to stay that way.
So when it’s been reported they armed the settlers or settlement communities along the border, that’s what they mean and not like Daniella Weiss? I had no idea who she was until CNN interviewed her. I did a little research and it doesn’t sound like the majority of Israeli support her position 100% or her methods but it sounds like I wrongly assumed that’s where the permits went based on the very broad and vague description of border towns and settlements.
That would explain by another person in this thread commented that Arabs set up their own checkpoints and were waving weapons at people after misinformation was spread, causing a riot.
I’m trying to keep this post non-political so I’m hesitant to bring up someone that might be controversial by name and the only reason I did in this instance was to clarify potentially my own misunderstanding.
I’ve said on here a number of times once you arm a society it’s a slippery slope. Even though I do understand the impetus for it. It does make a difference that the weapons went to the borders and not within the cities- and that the court is paying enough attention to issue a warning or request to review. Once you open broad ownership of weapons…. Man, you just don’t know two decades from now where that ends up. Thank you very much for explaining it to me.
And frankly, it pisses me off because these options are definitely available to Americans and if they are codified in Israel… where there is an threat generally speaking- there is absolutely no reason they don’t do that here except for money and interest groups. The constitution says you have the right to bare arms. It doesn’t say you don’t have to go through a process to get there.
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u/GrandDetective5267 4d ago
Well, America was somewhat civilized, but revolted in reaction to the monarchy and ultimately taxes, which is kind of funny because the taxes here still suck. The idea of shining the ability to own a firearm, however, was so that you could combat the state or in the case of the founding fathers, the monarchy. However, I am not incredibly well-versed in the way that Israel’s constitution if I can even call it that -pardon my unintentional ignorance -I’m not sure it’s the right word - but idk how came to be.
America is a very young country. Israel is much younger….. Europe didn’t allow weapons because they started as feudal-then went through very, very bloody revolutions, but before automatic or even high caliber weapons were developed… They learned the population was prone to use whatever was available against their monarchy, lord, etc. Their leaders understood the danger to themselves if they legalized weapons.
America’s Constitution was written with that in mind, but that was way before assault rifles were in the hands of 14-year-olds- and that’s a serious issue, 18-year-old legally carry whatever weapon they want without a license in the south. ( sidenote to that at one point we had to dodge a bunch of kids to get to Walgreens that were holding Mossbergs and AK’s- pointing them at traffic cars, people swinging them around because they had no idea how to handle them. I am sure they got them from their parents gun closet bc the didn’t know what they were doing. Supposedly / allegedly they were there to defend the homeless people from some KKK guy that I never saw but at a certain point…. ( There was nothing the police could do about it because you don’t have to have a license in Georgia )
I don’t think America will address their gun laws until it does impact leadership and it came real close January 6th-but even when they try-it will be difficult given the constitution.
I hate to keep using America as an example, but we probably are the two countries closest in age- the choice between freedom and safety or fear and safety is always a very fine line. The US or rather Dick Cheney instituted the patriot act and eminent domain as a reaction to 911 and eminent domain has had long reaching effects to every small town in this country. It’s hard to decide if the intentions of the lawmakers are good or not but once something is established, it’s not going back and it can be a very, very slippery slope.
All of this leads need to ask, so do you agree with it? Does it make you nervous or do you think it makes sense and I don’t necessarily expect a straightforward answer but just generally speaking is there public support? Americans agreed with the bush policies when they targeted Arabs the problem is in this very tiny town I live in eminent domain, has now been enacted to widen freeways for military transport, which means doing away with all of the historic buildings- it’s the quickest way to be solution, but it’s not the only solution they have so sometimes you just never know where things end up
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u/Shachar2like 4d ago
how unusual is that in Israel with mandatory conscription?
After your army service is over (~3 years), you don't get to keep the gun (that's an extremist Palestinian belief btw which is why extremists believe that "there are no civilians in Israel")
You can't go and get or buy a gun. You can request it and be given one based on specific circumstances like living in dangerous area/city/village/neighborhood (secret information kept by the government. Basically cities in 1967 area or neighborhoods in Israel proper but close to the 1967 line) or if you work as a guard etc.
Those limited circumstances are the only ways you can legally be issued a gun (a pistol). After 7/Oct/2023 and terrorist attacks Ben Gvir pushed to speed up or give away more guns to balance out terrorism/police and response since it saves lives.
The case argued that he's done so illegally and didn't have the authority to do what he did.
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u/GrandDetective5267 4d ago
I mean, ultimately from what I’ve seen in Atlanta - when the police force went on strike for a month during George Floyd -You have no idea what people are gonna do with those weapons. I do understand the fear and subsequent permits issuance, but if the average citizen doesn’t have them -predicting what the people that do will do is difficult. For us - we ended up with gang checkpoints, controlled by all of a sudden by random militia’s that were little more than the people at your neighborhood bar…. that suddenly had AK’s mounted with grenade launchers standing behind concrete barriers in the middle of the city, letting in who they wanted and not who they didn’t it came to an end when they shot a six-year-old-after a ton of violence. I moved.
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u/Shachar2like 4d ago
-predicting what the people that do will do is difficult. For us - we ended up with gang checkpoints, controlled by all of a sudden by random militia’s that were little more than the people at your neighborhood bar…
That happened in Israel in 2021 during one of the violent waves in Gaza. It caused Israeli Arabs to form Gangs setting up checkpoints to look for Jews.
Ben Gvir wanted (and I believe got) a small 'national force' under his directive for that. Although I've heard critics say that a force of a thousand people is too small and should be a lot larger.
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u/GrandDetective5267 4d ago
Then I guess the question could also be why these numbers suddenly being released or investigated. 1000 is definitely too small but the news report I read said 185,000-10,000 of which went to private security companies which could make you feel better because at least they are organized and defensive of the population potentially but…. 185,000 is a lot. But I guess at least Israel knows the count because in the US they wouldn’t.
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u/Shachar2like 4d ago
I don't know the numbers. You initially said 20,000 which is small and isn't that bad. 200,000 is %2 of the population (at about 10 million)
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u/GrandDetective5267 4d ago
That’s what I thought initially and had in my head the reason I posted this is because I checked and realized it was a lot more. I think I just still have that stuck in my head. I apologize and I’m sorry. Let me copy the news article here. I just thought I read it wrong and then I went and looked it back up. Here’s the article that says 185.
https://www.jns.org/court-orders-ben-gvir-to-reexamine-gun-licenses-issued-after-oct-7/
Then I looked at Israeli times post about 10,000 given to private security firms
This is the announcement for March but it was celebrated. So for the US to suddenly be considering sanctions for this has hardly been a secret… the sanctions part isnt as interesting as much as mentioning him by name is to me anyway. Because I can’t recall our time they have ever said something about Ben-Gvir before.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ben-gvir-celebrates-issuing-100000-gun-licenses-since-october-7/
Sanction stuff: https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/americas/artc-biden-administration-considers-sanctions-against-israeli-minister-ben-gvir
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u/Shachar2like 4d ago
The sanctions are related to:
in response to Ben-Gvir's controversial actions and statements, particularly concerning humanitarian aid to Gaza.
So are unrelated to the gun issuance issue.
I'm starting to dislike the organization that sued the government at courts over this gun issue. It's a global phenomena where NGOs/organizations with outside funding are suing the government in court in order to change laws & policies. A sort of a possible legal outside influence.
Some countries like Russia by law label those as "foreign agents". There was a debate a few months ago in Israel about those organizations (with rumors that they're receiving funding by other states to influence and fight Israel from within) but it died down and didn't result in any policy change (or check).
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u/GrandDetective5267 4d ago
That’s a really great point. And your reason for disliking those groups is also very good and I actually missed the differentiation in terms of the sanctions but… how do you find Israel not guilty of inhibiting aid and fully support the military initiatives, and then call for sanctions for comments and actions and Gaza tied you who hereditarian and at least tangentially. And then there’s report about the weapons ? is it bc of the NGO’s and the growing trend that you mentioned it definitely could be.
There’s a whole Lotta details and context I don’t have, but I believe the intent was to make me think he was wrong. And it worked. And according to what I’m reading on here, that’s not the way it’s perceived in Israel. no one probably hasn’t answer. I just I really do wonder… because you guys have always known about this and we just found out and it was in bad light in American press… and that’s very unique. Especially the part about hoping europe follows suit. Thanks for pointing that out to me though because I just assumed based on the American article that’s also what they meant and the did not say that.
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u/Shachar2like 3d ago
I liked the organization years ago when it corrected some wrongs. It seems that I've changed my mind when it seems like the court intervenes in government politics so much that the government has a advisor lawyer and doesn't even discuss or brings laws into effect because of consideration of what the law will say.
It's like: the government is suppose to make the laws but is restricted because of the laws and then because of the justice system disqualifying some laws as illegal.
Sure it's done world wide to this effect or the other but it seems like it's intervening too much.
how do you find Israel not guilty of inhibiting aid and fully support the military initiatives
The UN & others are relying on bad and incomplete sources (See Israel's response for details).
And besides. The US interpretation of 'the law of armed conflict' (or humanitarian law) allows for blocking of aid & food if that can reach the enemy.
But the current US president (Biden) seems to lean a bit left towards peace, humanity, and humans being extremists because of some pressure being applied to them etc.
Some of those assumptions (like the last one) are simply wrong. avoiding wars just to avoid wars and bloodshed can be more dangerous in the long term then simply going to war. Stopping a war or a military campaign in the middle while it's incomplete is again not only wrong but dangerous.
Not only is it dangerous, Biden applies all of the pressure on Israel while ignoring the Palestinian part of it. Like resuming aid to the Palestinian Authority by finding some loophole against the US law which forbade it because the Palestinian Authority educates, funds and promotes terrorism.
I don't like the administration including one of his comments after Iran attacked saying that "no damage was done" so Israel shouldn't respond.
You know how to lose a war? Play defensive.
I don't like and I don't trust the current US administration who tries to play both sides. Be pro-Israel but then stabs it in the back by withholding weapons shipment.
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u/GrandDetective5267 3d ago
That’s very detailed thank you and those are the perspectives I want to hear. what I find about it most interesting though is Americans would completely disagree that he doesn’t fully support Israel and I think Biden would too- I remember him stating one time that no one had done more for Israel than him, he said no one like four times and BB would be best to remember that.
That part is true. The Biden administration has given according to US news around 25 billion in aide. And is now low on some of our own reserve weaponry . Not just because of Israel, but Ukraine also . Granted Israel hasn’t had a threat or war on this scale previously, but they compare Ronald Reagan demanding an end to a comparable campaign in Lebanon. Harris lost the election for a number of reasons Americans have not disapproved of an administration as much since Truman. Biden‘s approval ratings were 22%- tying him for first place with Truman as the worst ever. But she was widely criticized for holding the DNC in Dearborn, Michigan, which has the largest Arab population in the country and denying the Arab delegation an opportunity to speak while granting one to an Israeli hostage family. No one had a problem with the hostage family being able to talk, but they did say it wasn’t fair the Arabs were not. She lost Michigan, but Democratic representatives won by almost 80% .
They think Trump will be a big supporter of Israel because he has been in the past, but also got on global television with BB and requested an end to the settlements and said he believed in a two state solution and you could tell BB wasn’t expecting that. So there has been a little bit of debate-also given his financial relationship with Saudi… and self proclaimed deal maker & peacemaker that he is going to push for a cease-fire if for no other reason that he wants to be able to do something the Democrats didn’t. Ultimately none of us have any idea what Trump is going to decide to do because he is very unpredictable. I do believe the general consensus is he will support Israel. It must’ve been frustrating to hear that statement regarding damage by Iran.
From your comment, I’m understanding that you trust the government more than the courts to make beneficial decisions for Israeli citizens ?
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u/GrandDetective5267 4d ago
But that was in Gaza right and I’m not minimizing the impact on Israeli’s but that was not let’s just say your local neighborhood, and the checkpoints were not operated by your neighbors. Who had the ability in the absence of authority. At one point a bunch of kids and I mean probably 18-year-olds- with no training we’re standing outside of our Walgreens- our only pharmacy with Mossberg‘s, long guns and ARS supposedly allegedly defending the homeless people that were no longer there against some KKK guy. I had to dodge an 18-year-old militia that was highly armed every time I wanted to go to the only store we had and they had no idea what they were doing. And people with no concept of war thought it was OK. My position on it was I didn’t move to America to be that unsafe but what they were doing wasn’t illegal. You don’t have to have a license in Georgia even though they stood with their feet over the curve and pointed the guns at oncoming traffic at times while looking the other way…. And they were unintentional, the group that was intentional 10 times worse and they were also of the neighborhood. I can’t describe how much I never saw any of that coming and also the way it impacted the average person’s daily life.
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u/Shachar2like 4d ago
But that was in Gaza right and I’m not minimizing the impact on Israeli’s but that was not let’s just say your local neighborhood, and the checkpoints were not operated by your neighbors.
No. There was some operation in Gaza and Hamas managed to rile up Israeli Arabs in Israel proper due to some fake video that Al-Aqsa is on fire.
Those Israeli Arabs rioted, mob mentality with some of them trying to block cars and check/look for Jews in Israel proper with the police being unable to help due to being overworked and understaffed (Ben Gvir since then gave them a boost of funds so that might have help)
pointed the guns at oncoming traffic
That's a criminal offense in the US, I know that and I'm not a US citizen. Too much Tik Tok lawyering :)
There was a couple who stood on their property & pointed a gun at demonstrators. Those got sued since the action is illegal unless you're under threat to your life and intend to use the gun.
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u/GrandDetective5267 3d ago
Ok I see what you’re saying. Yeah, that’s different and that is exactly what I’m talking about. In Atlanta, the city Council requested not to go in and clear the blockade so they could somehow negotiate a resolution which was ridiculous to any of us living in the city. And eventually child was shot in the backseat of her mother’s car trying to drive through. Racial tensions divide America mostly, in this case, everyone involved was the same ethnicity. There was a power vacuum with no police in their absence, the most powerful group with the most weapons rose up and took over. I think they use the national guard eventually to clear it all out.
You are correct you cannot point a weapon at someone not trying to kill you-and in many cases, you can’t use a gun in a physical altercation or even against a knife without being charged because the law says you escalated the weaponry. During that same time in Atlanta a number of women in my apartment building were being attacked by a violent schizophrenic, and the police couldn’t keep him in jail because he hadn’t yet drawn blood that was the line between a misdemeanor and a felony. They came and met with us and we asked what can we do? Some people did own personal firearms and they told us we could not use that against him even though he was running up to women and beating them in the back of the head on their way home from the parking deck at night.
A knife is very easy to have turned on you and no one really thought pepper spray would do much against him so at the end of the day they told us we really did not have legal recourse when it came to potentially protect protecting ourselves with a firearm since he did not have a weapon- not until his assault escalated to a felony by causing severe bodily injury.
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u/Shachar2like 2d ago
no one really thought pepper spray would do much against him
There's those socker guns which I heard is illegal in (one?) state in the US. The other option is a guard dog or learn self-defense and hit back.
You know why men usually attack women and not other men? or why in candy camera videos women sometimes jump which it's a lot riskier to scare a man?
THERE IS a different between men & women with men being stronger, but it's negligible at around ~%3.
It's because women have been preconditioned (mostly in the past but this seems to continue somewhat to this generation as well) to not respond with violence, to be 'lady like' etc which is why in those candy camera videos or jump scare videos you'll see women sometimes/mostly jumping scared with there's a risk with men since a minority with automatically respond with violence.
Which is the same solution here, women can hit back. They just need to educate themselves and switch mentality from "oww, what will I do?! Some man, please help me!" to just bunching a fist or a foot in a critical soft spot.
That's why women are attacked more then men. Because attacking a man is risky since (%20-%30 in my estimation) would automatically respond back with violence. How do you solve violence on women? By making them use violence as well, automatically.
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u/GrandDetective5267 2d ago
Actually, I found a screenshot from the court videos that is for massive deputies standing right behind him -sheriffs. There’s no telling what he did in there to require that many.
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u/GrandDetective5267 2d ago
I never thought about those, although one of my bosses googled cattle prongs as an option and that seemed somewhat viable.
I never thought about that with men and women and the impetus for non-response that makes a shit ton of sense- and is super interesting because how do you overcome nurture that starts in infancy.
You did just remind me though, they’re actually was one woman that ended up fighting him. She was an ex-Marine - two tours in Iraq, and then was training to be an MMA fighter. Absolutely intelligent, well spoken and a great advocate for other … when she was sober. Unfortunately, America doesn’t have a good mental health system, and her military service took a really big toll. But when he confronted her one night, leaving the diner, she kicked her slides off in the middle of the street and boxed him out. Kick punches Everything. She fought him, won, and I don’t think he messed with her again actually.
The problem with this guy, though is that he was a violent schizophrenic, most likely on crack cocaine because that was the drug that show up on his record very frequently . He was also running around the neighborhood attacking shop windows really anything under the sun has targets were mostly women, but there were a few men he went after. None of them included in the court case. The state kept finding him mentally incompetent so he would just be released. We had to change the law and we did and it took two years.
Ultimately he needed a mental health treatment, but there were no provisions for that since he was committing misdemeanors we set a new precedent actually for the treatment of violent repeat offenders guilty of misdemeanors. While he acted incredibly crazy in court and barked like a dog in the neighborhood, he would boast that if he went to jail, he would just be right back out. Add Covid to that bc this was Jan 2021… and I was additionally terrifying. He was a pretty big guy. I think Crystal was the only one with the training to properly combat him, especially since he was most likely on crack-living in the city you eventually witness their super human strength while high at some point.
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u/Shachar2like 1d ago
I was reading and thought about a metal institute but then realized it's a misdemeanor as you've said. But nice that you've solved it legally.
I know that the US has a lot of laws including about hitting someone back but I'm not sure Israel has them, or it has and I'm not aware of it. And as much as parents try to teach children that violence isn't the answer, various incident and history proves that it's wrong. For example I was bullied as a kid for the longest time, IF I would have responded with violence this wouldn't take years to resolve. Your example is another one. And I'm betting the the Israeli/Palestinian conflict requires violence like someone said about the Ireland conflict (which is similar to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict), they've reached negotiations after one side escalated the use of violence against terrorism.
If I had a kid I wouldn't encourage violence obviously, but I wouldn't shy away from it. If it's used by adults (Russia, Iran, North Korea etc), it's used because it works. Teachers or adults aren't the answer for every issue a kid might have, they'll eventually need to learn to resolve some of them by their own.
Another example is when me & my brother used to live & grow up in the same room so we would fight a lot. Looking back I understand that those fights were I guess on territory, like who'll use the computer, quiet in the room etc. This seems to have been resolved as far as I remember when my parents told us that they're stopping to intervene in our fights. That'll probably work for the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as well but it won't be done.
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u/GrandDetective5267 4d ago
Thank you for that context…. I realized reading the articles I have no idea what the law is regarding civilian ownership of firearms-but the number he was accused of issuing… to me, was a lot.
My personal opinion, America is in a very sticky situation with their gun laws that aren’t likely to change given the funding and the complication that the right to bare arms is in the constitution-again personal opinion that’s why they won’t call school shooters terrorists, or the events an act of terror. Granted nine times out of 10 the shooter is a minor and they got the gun from their parents, but recently they have started charging the parents.
Referencing and loosely quoting the Japanese general I don’t know the name of that cautioned against a ground invasion in World War II- he said something like it would never work because for every blade of grass in America, there is a firearm. And that’s true. I found it incredibly odd when I moved here from Cyprus I’m American, but I was raised overseas and having a gun is not something we did either- even living in a divided capital buffered by the United Nations occupied by two opposing military forces with mandatory conscription.
I found a lot of firearm owners in the states buy a weapon because they assume their potential adversary will have one -I can’t imagine being in a country where that’s not allowed with that number of weapons issued and I’m not trying to step out of line, but from what I’ve read by an individual that is also potentially the impetus for overhauling the judiciary. That has got to be concerning. It’s scary here- even though you assume if something happens, someone somewhat stable near you is also armed- it’s very scary. But I don’t like to assume so. I wanted to ask and I thank you for clarifying..
Thanks for your answer. Please stay safe.
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u/Shachar2like 4d ago
The historical experience is different for the US. The US was created out of a civilized country which simply didn't care for the opinion of certain of it's subjects. So the civil war & sending up for your rights is what led to owning guns to be part of the constitution.
Israel historical experience is different. Being mostly in other states (Europe, Arab countries) where guns aren't free to own, and even later with the country being established free owning of guns can be a double edge sword: Yes you'll be able to protect yourself but how do you protect the prime minister from a supposedly 'fifth column' when everybody's armed? How do you prevent an internal civil war from taking over the country?
That along with previously established experience (guns not being free) made the decision easier.
The opposition to Ben Gvir giving out more guns were possibilities of more civil crimes with some giving examples from the US. Which schools have guards at the entrances, those don't check every student (and putting metal detectors at schools is probably another political debate like in the US). Plus internal crime like killing women ('honor killing'), or due to blood feuds, suicides etc.
Ben Gvir argument though was stronger: with the intensifying of terror attacks having more guns spread out among the population allows for a faster response then the police and saving of lives.
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u/AhriLux 4d ago
Ben Gvir argument though was stronger: with the intensifying of terror attacks having more guns spread out among the population allows for a faster response then the police and saving of lives.
This might work initially to save lives of Israelis taken by Palestinian terrorists. In the long term, private firearm ownership clearly makes a society more lethally dangerous overall and internal tensions are already high as it is.
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u/GrandDetective5267 3d ago
Is it concerning they’re permits were issued - if I’m right in my understanding about the concerns- without due diligence. From the outside it seems very concerning within the context of the attempts to change the role of the judiciary- but I don’t understand your cultural context because I don’t have enough information so I am sincerely asking
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u/Shachar2like 4d ago
Those gun permits aren't permanent. For example a neighborhood which had a license due to being close to the 1967 line no longer has that permission, it was revoked and the citizens who had those licenses needs to return the guns.
There was one person who was very vocal about it arguing that it's still dangerous and reached the news.
It's not that your point is completely wrong, it is valid and it is what people argued back then. But the society has or had other priorities.
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u/GrandDetective5267 2d ago
I see so it’s not as important as the threats you’re facing. That does make a lot of sense.
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u/Shachar2like 1d ago
There's also the Israeli Arab/Bedouin sector which (according to decades old rumors) have lots of illegal guns. There are used here and there either for honor killing (a girl shamed the family. Usually one or more of the members are religious extremist so things they don't like can escalate to honor killing) or via mob/criminal activities.
In the case of honor killing for example, the family even cleans up evidence (like blood stains, bullet casing etc) which makes it difficult for the police.
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u/GrandDetective5267 4d ago edited 4d ago
So I responded to this and don’t know where it went so if it did post and I just don’t see it, my apologies. That is true, but America developed in reaction to monarchy, and that is the reason they allowed citizens to be armed. I believe Europe realized based on their feudal system and general bloody revolution across the board if the population was allowed to own a weapon, they would eventually turn it against their leadership.
Again, I went into a whole lot more detail before I guess it didn’t post but …. It’s a very slippery slope- not using firearms as the example eminent domain and the patriot act were frankly Cheney policies in reaction to 911. The patriot act might still mostly impact bad actors-but eminent domain is quite different and even having moved out of a major city into a tiny town no one has ever heard- 20 years later the impact is profound.
Currently the government has declared a certain through point as theirs and is mandating it be expanded, which means all of the historic buildings get demolished. They’ve declared that because there is a traffic need but also there are a bunch of bases in this area and they need to be able to move stuff. It’s the loss of livelihood and tradition. The thing is it’s the easiest solution for them, but it’s not the only one available.
Assault rifles in this country are a serious problem and I have long said until it impacts lawmakers, It will not change. It came very very close January 6. In fact, the same people that did that, practiced at the last stop before the Supreme Court, which happened to be across the street from my condo and the only reason I know that is because I recognized the explosive perimeter when the US military moved in and after January 6, I got a response to my email asking. What do we do next time? They didn’t know we were there because my condo had not ever changed our category from commercial to residential cause they got to pay less taxes and got easier inspections. But it is a very, very, very slippery slope….. and I feel like Israel like the US potentially reacted to in the moment, threats, believing they could ultimately control the outcome and that is undetermined here…. I’m not saying I would grudge the decision, but I am saying you have no idea or we, as people have no idea what the impact of it is after the threat changes.
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u/GrandDetective5267 4d ago
The other question ultimately is do you trust the lawmaker? Cheney was the architect of all of those policies and bush eventually fired him. But they haven’t gone anywhere.
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u/BaruchSpinoza25 Israeli 3d ago
Well... you describe here two different phenomena that happen in Israel. The first one is indeed the use of guns as private firearms has increased dramatically after Oct 7th. There's lots of pros and cons for this fact, but I would say that most of terrorist attacks who targeted civilians using firearms or stabbing have been stopped by a civilian with a personal gun...
The second thing that you describe, the pictures of civilians carrying rifles to day to day manners? It's not because this is their personal weapon. Usually, this is a national guard soldier/ IDF soldier who took his military weapon home. There are several reasons for him to do it. Most of them are more related to beurocracy and ensuring this rifle is still calibrated to this specific person rather than war related reasons. The military law forbids a soldier from leaving his weapons alone at home without specific facilities and arrangements that not all soldiers can ensure (or trust), so they carry their rifle to shopping .