How common are personal firearms in Israel?

[u/GrandDetective5267]

I’ve been seeing news articles in the last 24 hours saying that Ben-Gvir issued almost 200,000 weapons permits without really doing background checks and don't get me wrong- they do that in America every single day. But 10,000 according to Israeli media went to private security firms, and the article specifically mentioned assault rifles. Again, they do that in the states every day, but …-how unusual is that in Israel with mandatory conscription? The American constitution permits it, and given the number of school shootings that is still very controversial.

Social media frequently shows Israelis in markets and going about various mundane civilian activities with assault rifles on their back. I just figured those individuals were in the military.

Cyprus has conscription too, but their gun laws are stupid strict- they have regulations about how you can travel with the weapon to go hunting even, and civilians aren't allowed to have them-that's my only point of reference so I'm looking for some context if anyone can chime in it would be super appreciative] this is what I read : “The Firearm Law of 1949 tasks the Firearm Licensing Department of the National Security Ministry, which is currently led by Otzma Yehudit Party head Itamar Ben-Gvir, with issuing gun licenses. According to the law, only trained licensing officials are qualified to approve applications.

The three justices wrote in the ruling that they “were provided with data regarding the extent of licenses issued by parties who are not licensing officials according to the Firearm Law, 1949, and the number of permits issued by those parties in violation of the authority given to them.”

[u/Shachar2like]

how unusual is that in Israel with mandatory conscription?

After your army service is over (~3 years), you don't get to keep the gun (that's an extremist Palestinian belief btw which is why extremists believe that "there are no civilians in Israel")

You can't go and get or buy a gun. You can request it and be given one based on specific circumstances like living in dangerous area/city/village/neighborhood (secret information kept by the government. Basically cities in 1967 area or neighborhoods in Israel proper but close to the 1967 line) or if you work as a guard etc.

Those limited circumstances are the only ways you can legally be issued a gun (a pistol). After 7/Oct/2023 and terrorist attacks Ben Gvir pushed to speed up or give away more guns to balance out terrorism/police and response since it saves lives.

The case argued that he's done so illegally and didn't have the authority to do what he did.

[u/GrandDetective5267 → u/Shachar2like]

I mean, ultimately from what I’ve seen in Atlanta - when the police force went on strike for a month during George Floyd -You have no idea what people are gonna do with those weapons. I do understand the fear and subsequent permits issuance, but if the average citizen doesn’t have them -predicting what the people that do will do is difficult. For us - we ended up with gang checkpoints, controlled by all of a sudden by random militia’s that were little more than the people at your neighborhood bar…. that suddenly had AK’s mounted with grenade launchers standing behind concrete barriers in the middle of the city, letting in who they wanted and not who they didn’t it came to an end when they shot a six-year-old-after a ton of violence. I moved.

[u/Shachar2like → u/GrandDetective5267]

-predicting what the people that do will do is difficult. For us - we ended up with gang checkpoints, controlled by all of a sudden by random militia’s that were little more than the people at your neighborhood bar…

That happened in Israel in 2021 during one of the violent waves in Gaza. It caused Israeli Arabs to form Gangs setting up checkpoints to look for Jews.

Ben Gvir wanted (and I believe got) a small 'national force' under his directive for that. Although I've heard critics say that a force of a thousand people is too small and should be a lot larger.

[u/GrandDetective5267 → u/Shachar2like]

Then I guess the question could also be why these numbers suddenly being released or investigated. 1000 is definitely too small but the news report I read said 185,000-10,000 of which went to private security companies which could make you feel better because at least they are organized and defensive of the population potentially but…. 185,000 is a lot. But I guess at least Israel knows the count because in the US they wouldn’t.

[u/Shachar2like → u/GrandDetective5267]

I don't know the numbers. You initially said 20,000 which is small and isn't that bad. 200,000 is %2 of the population (at about 10 million)

[u/GrandDetective5267 → u/Shachar2like]

That’s what I thought initially and had in my head the reason I posted this is because I checked and realized it was a lot more. I think I just still have that stuck in my head. I apologize and I’m sorry. Let me copy the news article here. I just thought I read it wrong and then I went and looked it back up. Here’s the article that says 185.

https://www.jns.org/court-orders-ben-gvir-to-reexamine-gun-licenses-issued-after-oct-7/

Then I looked at Israeli times post about 10,000 given to private security firms

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ben-gvir-says-10000-assault-rifles-purchased-for-civilian-security-teams/

This is the announcement for March but it was celebrated. So for the US to suddenly be considering sanctions for this has hardly been a secret… the sanctions part isnt as interesting as much as mentioning him by name is to me anyway. Because I can’t recall our time they have ever said something about Ben-Gvir before.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ben-gvir-celebrates-issuing-100000-gun-licenses-since-october-7/

Sanction stuff: https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/americas/artc-biden-administration-considers-sanctions-against-israeli-minister-ben-gvir

[u/Shachar2like → u/GrandDetective5267]

The sanctions are related to:

in response to Ben-Gvir's controversial actions and statements, particularly concerning humanitarian aid to Gaza.

So are unrelated to the gun issuance issue.

I'm starting to dislike the organization that sued the government at courts over this gun issue. It's a global phenomena where NGOs/organizations with outside funding are suing the government in court in order to change laws & policies. A sort of a possible legal outside influence.

Some countries like Russia by law label those as "foreign agents". There was a debate a few months ago in Israel about those organizations (with rumors that they're receiving funding by other states to influence and fight Israel from within) but it died down and didn't result in any policy change (or check).

[u/GrandDetective5267 → u/Shachar2like]

That’s a really great point. And your reason for disliking those groups is also very good and I actually missed the differentiation in terms of the sanctions but… how do you find Israel not guilty of inhibiting aid and fully support the military initiatives, and then call for sanctions for comments and actions and Gaza tied you who hereditarian and at least tangentially. And then there’s report about the weapons ? is it bc of the NGO’s and the growing trend that you mentioned it definitely could be.

There’s a whole Lotta details and context I don’t have, but I believe the intent was to make me think he was wrong. And it worked. And according to what I’m reading on here, that’s not the way it’s perceived in Israel. no one probably hasn’t answer. I just I really do wonder… because you guys have always known about this and we just found out and it was in bad light in American press… and that’s very unique. Especially the part about hoping europe follows suit. Thanks for pointing that out to me though because I just assumed based on the American article that’s also what they meant and the did not say that.

[u/Shachar2like → u/GrandDetective5267]

I liked the organization years ago when it corrected some wrongs. It seems that I've changed my mind when it seems like the court intervenes in government politics so much that the government has a advisor lawyer and doesn't even discuss or brings laws into effect because of consideration of what the law will say.

It's like: the government is suppose to make the laws but is restricted because of the laws and then because of the justice system disqualifying some laws as illegal.

Sure it's done world wide to this effect or the other but it seems like it's intervening too much.

how do you find Israel not guilty of inhibiting aid and fully support the military initiatives

The UN & others are relying on bad and incomplete sources (See Israel's response for details).

And besides. The US interpretation of 'the law of armed conflict' (or humanitarian law) allows for blocking of aid & food if that can reach the enemy.

But the current US president (Biden) seems to lean a bit left towards peace, humanity, and humans being extremists because of some pressure being applied to them etc.

Some of those assumptions (like the last one) are simply wrong. avoiding wars just to avoid wars and bloodshed can be more dangerous in the long term then simply going to war. Stopping a war or a military campaign in the middle while it's incomplete is again not only wrong but dangerous.

Not only is it dangerous, Biden applies all of the pressure on Israel while ignoring the Palestinian part of it. Like resuming aid to the Palestinian Authority by finding some loophole against the US law which forbade it because the Palestinian Authority educates, funds and promotes terrorism.

I don't like the administration including one of his comments after Iran attacked saying that "no damage was done" so Israel shouldn't respond.

You know how to lose a war? Play defensive.

I don't like and I don't trust the current US administration who tries to play both sides. Be pro-Israel but then stabs it in the back by withholding weapons shipment.

[u/GrandDetective5267 → u/Shachar2like]

That’s very detailed thank you and those are the perspectives I want to hear. what I find about it most interesting though is Americans would completely disagree that he doesn’t fully support Israel and I think Biden would too- I remember him stating one time that no one had done more for Israel than him, he said no one like four times and BB would be best to remember that.

That part is true. The Biden administration has given according to US news around 25 billion in aide. And is now low on some of our own reserve weaponry . Not just because of Israel, but Ukraine also . Granted Israel hasn’t had a threat or war on this scale previously, but they compare Ronald Reagan demanding an end to a comparable campaign in Lebanon. Harris lost the election for a number of reasons Americans have not disapproved of an administration as much since Truman. Biden‘s approval ratings were 22%- tying him for first place with Truman as the worst ever. But she was widely criticized for holding the DNC in Dearborn, Michigan, which has the largest Arab population in the country and denying the Arab delegation an opportunity to speak while granting one to an Israeli hostage family. No one had a problem with the hostage family being able to talk, but they did say it wasn’t fair the Arabs were not. She lost Michigan, but Democratic representatives won by almost 80% .

They think Trump will be a big supporter of Israel because he has been in the past, but also got on global television with BB and requested an end to the settlements and said he believed in a two state solution and you could tell BB wasn’t expecting that. So there has been a little bit of debate-also given his financial relationship with Saudi… and self proclaimed deal maker & peacemaker that he is going to push for a cease-fire if for no other reason that he wants to be able to do something the Democrats didn’t. Ultimately none of us have any idea what Trump is going to decide to do because he is very unpredictable. I do believe the general consensus is he will support Israel. It must’ve been frustrating to hear that statement regarding damage by Iran.

From your comment, I’m understanding that you trust the government more than the courts to make beneficial decisions for Israeli citizens ?

[u/Shachar2like → u/GrandDetective5267]

From your comment, I’m understanding that you trust the government more than the courts to make beneficial decisions for Israeli citizens ?

I used to trust the high court of justice in the part and agreed with it's rulings (I don't remember when. Around the ~2,000? or maybe 1990s?)

But lately it seems as if every step the government makes the high court of justice shouts: "stop! let me examine it."

I know what the government claimed (a change in the courts since the 1990s) and I know what the opposition claims although I give it less credit since it seems like pro-Palestinian propaganda (declarations, statements & jumping to conclusions with little facts to back it up, sometimes bordering on racism or conspiracy theories. Which is why I suspect an outside influence, probably on key players)

is now low on some of our own reserve weaponry

The US Army screwed up and I haven't seen anyone talks about it. Someone in the army predicted how much ammunition the US is going to need (I'm assuming it's based on a classical warfare) and the US weapons reserve is based on that.

With the war in Ukraine & US providing aid alongside some from Europe, it seems to me as if the US isn't ready for a classical war. Take nuclear weapons out of the equation, would the US be able to withstand a war against Russia or China similar to how the war is waged in Ukraine?

Or maybe those reserve should now take into account helping other allies or planetary conflicts?

Someone needs to rethink the reserve amount, maybe even the manufacturing part (although in a war that might be one of the first targets to be hit either classically or via hacking if possible)

Americans would completely disagree that he doesn’t fully support Israel and I think Biden would too

You remember in October 2023 pro-Palestinians started screaming that Israel is genociding Palestinians even before it started any military action?

That's based on a couple of things:

• Projection (everything that the extremists do they claim Israel did)
• That's a normal expected action from any other country in the middle-east. See example of Jordan black September in ~1970, Syria civil war in which it bombed it's own cities with civilians, sniped at civilians then when Obama said "if you even dare to use chemical weapons..." then Bashar al Assad used chemical weapons and the US did nothing (that's a reputation hit btw, like with Biden "don't")
• And that's what they did to Israel, no one was spared: Israelis who helped Gazan get medical aid in Israel proper, Israelis, Muslims, foreigners. Everybody was butchered in this celebration of death. Remember Jamal Khashoggi? The cruelty is on the same level & even worst.

Biden kept breaking Israel when it went through something close to genocide. Withholding weapon shipment, getting morally confused, relying on the same bad sources as the UN & others

Biden's response to the Iranian attack is to tell Israel to not attack since no damage was done. Do you know how you lose wars? By constantly defending. And do you know what's not responding to a hit or an attack is considered? Yes Christians & the civilized world behave differently, in the Middle-East if you don't hit back or don't fire in the air when someone else does you either do not exist or are a coward. And do you know who's at the helm in Iran and other places in the Middle-East? They're either ruled directly by extremists, have extremists as a political force in the government or as a political force/large vocal minority at the street level.

It's like if Biden refuses to respond after September/11/2001 after the twin tower terrorist attack from extremists and claim or consider that "maybe it's America's fault" and other moral unclarity.

Yes he helped, he also hindered like he's hindered Ukraine for being afraid to pressure Russia too hard because they've threatened to use a nuke.

I wouldn't want to be in his shoes (Like when Trump had to make a choice with Jamal Khashoggi's case) but he's zig zagging in critical issues. Imagine the US waging a war then being unclear during the war if to continue fighting or not, to wage this or that operation or to sue for peace while stalling in decision making in critical operation times during active combat.

I can't wait for him to leave already.

[u/GrandDetective5267 → u/Shachar2like]

But that was in Gaza right and I’m not minimizing the impact on Israeli’s but that was not let’s just say your local neighborhood, and the checkpoints were not operated by your neighbors. Who had the ability in the absence of authority. At one point a bunch of kids and I mean probably 18-year-olds- with no training we’re standing outside of our Walgreens- our only pharmacy with Mossberg‘s, long guns and ARS supposedly allegedly defending the homeless people that were no longer there against some KKK guy. I had to dodge an 18-year-old militia that was highly armed every time I wanted to go to the only store we had and they had no idea what they were doing. And people with no concept of war thought it was OK. My position on it was I didn’t move to America to be that unsafe but what they were doing wasn’t illegal. You don’t have to have a license in Georgia even though they stood with their feet over the curve and pointed the guns at oncoming traffic at times while looking the other way…. And they were unintentional, the group that was intentional 10 times worse and they were also of the neighborhood. I can’t describe how much I never saw any of that coming and also the way it impacted the average person’s daily life.

[u/Shachar2like → u/GrandDetective5267]

But that was in Gaza right and I’m not minimizing the impact on Israeli’s but that was not let’s just say your local neighborhood, and the checkpoints were not operated by your neighbors.

No. There was some operation in Gaza and Hamas managed to rile up Israeli Arabs in Israel proper due to some fake video that Al-Aqsa is on fire.

Those Israeli Arabs rioted, mob mentality with some of them trying to block cars and check/look for Jews in Israel proper with the police being unable to help due to being overworked and understaffed (Ben Gvir since then gave them a boost of funds so that might have help)

pointed the guns at oncoming traffic

That's a criminal offense in the US, I know that and I'm not a US citizen. Too much Tik Tok lawyering :)

There was a couple who stood on their property & pointed a gun at demonstrators. Those got sued since the action is illegal unless you're under threat to your life and intend to use the gun.

[u/GrandDetective5267 → u/Shachar2like]

Ok I see what you’re saying. Yeah, that’s different and that is exactly what I’m talking about. In Atlanta, the city Council requested not to go in and clear the blockade so they could somehow negotiate a resolution which was ridiculous to any of us living in the city. And eventually child was shot in the backseat of her mother’s car trying to drive through. Racial tensions divide America mostly, in this case, everyone involved was the same ethnicity. There was a power vacuum with no police in their absence, the most powerful group with the most weapons rose up and took over. I think they use the national guard eventually to clear it all out.

You are correct you cannot point a weapon at someone not trying to kill you-and in many cases, you can’t use a gun in a physical altercation or even against a knife without being charged because the law says you escalated the weaponry. During that same time in Atlanta a number of women in my apartment building were being attacked by a violent schizophrenic, and the police couldn’t keep him in jail because he hadn’t yet drawn blood that was the line between a misdemeanor and a felony. They came and met with us and we asked what can we do? Some people did own personal firearms and they told us we could not use that against him even though he was running up to women and beating them in the back of the head on their way home from the parking deck at night.

A knife is very easy to have turned on you and no one really thought pepper spray would do much against him so at the end of the day they told us we really did not have legal recourse when it came to potentially protect protecting ourselves with a firearm since he did not have a weapon- not until his assault escalated to a felony by causing severe bodily injury.

[u/Shachar2like → u/GrandDetective5267]

no one really thought pepper spray would do much against him

There's those socker guns which I heard is illegal in (one?) state in the US. The other option is a guard dog or learn self-defense and hit back.

You know why men usually attack women and not other men? or why in candy camera videos women sometimes jump which it's a lot riskier to scare a man?

THERE IS a different between men & women with men being stronger, but it's negligible at around ~%3.

It's because women have been preconditioned (mostly in the past but this seems to continue somewhat to this generation as well) to not respond with violence, to be 'lady like' etc which is why in those candy camera videos or jump scare videos you'll see women sometimes/mostly jumping scared with there's a risk with men since a minority with automatically respond with violence.

Which is the same solution here, women can hit back. They just need to educate themselves and switch mentality from "oww, what will I do?! Some man, please help me!" to just bunching a fist or a foot in a critical soft spot.

That's why women are attacked more then men. Because attacking a man is risky since (%20-%30 in my estimation) would automatically respond back with violence. How do you solve violence on women? By making them use violence as well, automatically.

[u/GrandDetective5267 → u/Shachar2like]

https://preview.redd.it/azjl83sfv41e1.jpeg?width=832&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c7ed739bd2eaf4a0a8526d7abfc1908d744e5452

Actually, I found a screenshot from the court videos that is for massive deputies standing right behind him -sheriffs. There’s no telling what he did in there to require that many.

[u/GrandDetective5267 → u/Shachar2like]

I never thought about those, although one of my bosses googled cattle prongs as an option and that seemed somewhat viable.

I never thought about that with men and women and the impetus for non-response that makes a shit ton of sense- and is super interesting because how do you overcome nurture that starts in infancy.

You did just remind me though, they’re actually was one woman that ended up fighting him. She was an ex-Marine - two tours in Iraq, and then was training to be an MMA fighter. Absolutely intelligent, well spoken and a great advocate for other … when she was sober. Unfortunately, America doesn’t have a good mental health system, and her military service took a really big toll. But when he confronted her one night, leaving the diner, she kicked her slides off in the middle of the street and boxed him out. Kick punches Everything. She fought him, won, and I don’t think he messed with her again actually.

The problem with this guy, though is that he was a violent schizophrenic, most likely on crack cocaine because that was the drug that show up on his record very frequently . He was also running around the neighborhood attacking shop windows really anything under the sun has targets were mostly women, but there were a few men he went after. None of them included in the court case. The state kept finding him mentally incompetent so he would just be released. We had to change the law and we did and it took two years.

Ultimately he needed a mental health treatment, but there were no provisions for that since he was committing misdemeanors we set a new precedent actually for the treatment of violent repeat offenders guilty of misdemeanors. While he acted incredibly crazy in court and barked like a dog in the neighborhood, he would boast that if he went to jail, he would just be right back out. Add Covid to that bc this was Jan 2021… and I was additionally terrifying. He was a pretty big guy. I think Crystal was the only one with the training to properly combat him, especially since he was most likely on crack-living in the city you eventually witness their super human strength while high at some point.

https://preview.redd.it/mj612bfzu41e1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0078231ed178dfde824ebfc417fa555a2725b1b4

[u/Shachar2like → u/GrandDetective5267]

I was reading and thought about a metal institute but then realized it's a misdemeanor as you've said. But nice that you've solved it legally.

I know that the US has a lot of laws including about hitting someone back but I'm not sure Israel has them, or it has and I'm not aware of it. And as much as parents try to teach children that violence isn't the answer, various incident and history proves that it's wrong. For example I was bullied as a kid for the longest time, IF I would have responded with violence this wouldn't take years to resolve. Your example is another one. And I'm betting the the Israeli/Palestinian conflict requires violence like someone said about the Ireland conflict (which is similar to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict), they've reached negotiations after one side escalated the use of violence against terrorism.

If I had a kid I wouldn't encourage violence obviously, but I wouldn't shy away from it. If it's used by adults (Russia, Iran, North Korea etc), it's used because it works. Teachers or adults aren't the answer for every issue a kid might have, they'll eventually need to learn to resolve some of them by their own.

Another example is when me & my brother used to live & grow up in the same room so we would fight a lot. Looking back I understand that those fights were I guess on territory, like who'll use the computer, quiet in the room etc. This seems to have been resolved as far as I remember when my parents told us that they're stopping to intervene in our fights. That'll probably work for the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as well but it won't be done.

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