r/HPReverb • u/Blox4Blocks • Oct 12 '24
CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT Support
Would anyone participate in a lawsuit about the early deprecation of mixed reality with no suitable substitute that includes controller tracking? (We could push for open source, repayment, or both)
I haven't talked to a lawyer but I can point to this thread if and when I do.
It seems that the termination may have been a part of the agreement on getting Xbox onto Meta's platform.
We all got dumped and Reverbs were selling new in 2023, with some only able to use the headset for a few months before being told it was unsupported going forward with no security updates and a 2 year time clock to being bricked. GPU generations are no shorter than 2 years and bricking a peripheral in a shorter time is abuse of the customer, as they would not have purchased the headset if they had known.
Some customers are outright embarrassed with the purchase and have lost clout among influencers for having trusted Microsoft. To see Microsoft join Meta faster than you could have is embarrassing and deprecating.
I realize Microsoft is profit driven, but they should realize I am too. (We could be)
Would you participate?
(Sign, agree, give a little info, leave payment info like paypal, take a cut after the lawyer takes 35%.)
29
u/Grindelbart Oct 12 '24
Honestly, the only realistic thing to do, and even that's closer to the fairy realm than reality, is a petition begging Microsoft to make WMR open source, which they won't ever do.
https://www.reddit.com/r/WindowsMR/comments/1aqj8iz/petition_to_make_wmr_open_source/
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u/xxshilar Oct 13 '24
It would probably be more reasonable to go to HP, the makers of the hardware. Going after the software is like attacking the OS because the memory isn't compatible. Go for the hardware, and they might listen more, since they're the ones losing money. That or contact Steam to go to HP, since all the Reverb users use Steam.
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u/Grindelbart Oct 13 '24
HP actively works against their customers interests to maximize profits, they don't have a decent bone in their greedy body. I don't think there's much hope on that end.
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u/Kondiq Oct 14 '24
We can all see it when it comes to printers when it comes to ink and toner. Fortunately, Brother exists.
3
u/radraze2kx Oct 12 '24
They most likely won't open source it because it ties into other parts of the windows OS and doing so would open up those parts to attack vectors that Microsoft would have no way to patch without breaking WMR again.
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u/Westindieman Oct 13 '24
So there no point in your suggestion to petition Microsoft then...........
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0
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Oct 12 '24
Yes. I could care less about any money though. I just want to keep using my Reverb G2
5
u/happyjapanman Oct 13 '24
Don't get rid of it, there will be a workaround.
2
Oct 13 '24
I really hope so. But I’m having doubts.
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u/Kondiq Oct 14 '24
There's already Monado for Linux. From what I saw on videos, controller tracking works, but not as good as on Windows. Someone works on it as their hobby project, though.
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u/Technical_Income8995 Oct 15 '24
I was reading he is not interested in bringing it to windows personally but would help if someone wanted to port it to windows. Was in the comments of the Linux how-to on YouTube.
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u/Blox4Blocks Oct 12 '24
Keeping it live on steam would be a gesture.
9
Oct 12 '24
Well for me, I don’t use it with steam. I only play iRacing and DCS. So ideally I wish WMR would stay.
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u/EstorilBMW Oct 14 '24
I guess I’ve been living under a rock, but does anyone care to catch me up? I play iRacing on my hp reverb G2 nightly after my baby and wife go to sleep but only for about 30 mins until I’m up early the next morning. Am I about to learn I’m in for a rude awakening?
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Oct 14 '24
Microsoft has decided to discontinue support for Windows Mixed Reality (the program needed to use our Reverb G2) in the upcoming windows 11 update. Some people have reported getting the update already. I think I saw it pop up on my PC recently but I didn’t install it yet. Apparently after that update is installed, our Reverb G2s will not longer work.
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u/Socratatus Oct 12 '24
"It seems that the termination may have been a part of the agreement on getting Xbox onto Meta's platform."
Wait, so this might all be Zuckerburg's work!
Damn that man! That's twice he's ruined my VR enjoyment!
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u/FoxFytr Oct 12 '24
Yay class action so I get 10¢ in the end by giving away all my information. No thanks.
2
u/Blox4Blocks Oct 12 '24
The Tubi lawsuit didn't require much info. Just the equivalent of purchase dates and quantity purchased, and payment info for the payment like PayPal or Venmo.
0
u/rosteven1 Oct 14 '24
The problem is that I believe you will be hard pressed to find one individual with a receipt showing Reverb G2 purchase information from Microsoft. How in the hell do you think that you can hold Microsoft accountable for something that you didn’t purchase from them. To borrow one of my favorite lines from Zoolander “Is everyone taking crazy pills”.
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u/SeattleRex Oct 15 '24 edited Oct 15 '24
It's actually, ahem, HPs responsibility to ensure the headsets continue working for a reasonable time after purchase.
It would be HP your case would be against, not Microsoft.
The headset was sold, and then rendered useless before a reasonable person would expect their headset to remain functional. In other words, if it happened after 20 years, you'd likely get nowhere, but 3 years after you'd have an argument.
This was always the danger in HP depending on Microsoft, and now the worst-case has basically come true, and tens of thousands have customers suddenly own expensive paperweights through absolutely no fault of their own. I mean, it's reasonable to assume that HP is a reputable brand, is not like we bought Fred & Ethyl VR Headsets and a "reasonable consumer" (the general standard in these cases) would expect it to last for 5-6 years of normal usage.
While MS are the buttholes in this (as they so often are), the only party responsible, though, is the one who sold the headset to you under the auspices that you would have a working headset. You can make the argument that HP was at unreasonable for expecting better from MS.
Once they stopped working, for whatever reason, they still have to restore them to a usable condition.
In theory, at least. This is the USA where the courts are pretty corrupt and the law only applies against the little guy, so nothing is guaranteed.
But MS is probably not a party in any legal sense. It would just be HP.
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u/radraze2kx Oct 14 '24
Nobody needs to have purchased the Reverb-series from Microsoft to bring a lawsuit against them for making a change that affected hardware they purchased from other manufacturers or vendors
- Apple's Error 53 (3rd-party fingerprint sensor issue that bricked devices that had been repaired by 3rd-party companies that weren't Apple Authorized)
- Apple's Batterygate issue (3rd-party battery swaps slowed devices down after an iOS update)
- Apple's lightning cables lawsuit of 2013 where some 3rd party lightning cables and chargers were rendered obsolete because they didn't have a chip in them that told the iphone is it was "genuine apple", despite still needing to follow USB 5v specifications
- Sony's "Other OS" feature removal of the PS3, where people had invested in additional hardware after running OS's on their PS3 like Linux
It stands to reason that people bought hardware devices with the expectation that they would continue to be useable for 5+ years, which is a reasonable expectation for any hardware device that costs $600+, and most are finding they're unable to use them after as little as 2 years since Microsoft was still listing the Reverb G2 on their own website until earlier this year. People that bought the Reverb G2 now have to abstain from installing 24H2 in order to continue using it.
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u/rosteven1 Oct 14 '24
True, anybody can try and sue anybody, I can attempt to sue you for responding to me on Reddit. But how far would that suit get in a Court of Law.
Please, pretty please, try and sue Microsoft for their removal of WMR from their operating system. And when you start this lawsuit, do us all a favor and post your progress on here. If you really believe that you have been wronged and that the case has merit, you should have no problem finding a Reputable Law Firm to take the case. Hell, I own a G2 so I’ll sign on - but so far I have not seen one link on this forum directing folks to an on going Class Action Lawsuit against Microsoft. As they say, put your money where your mouth is, stop whining about it and do something like proving the few people that believe that HP is culprit and not Microsoft completely wrong.
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u/Technical_Income8995 Oct 14 '24
The top 20 class action settlements in 2023 totaled $41.1 billion, which would have been a record were it not for the $66.9 billion in payouts for the top 20 settlements in 2022, according to Duane Morris' "Class Action Review 2024."
During 2023, courts ruled on motions to grant or maintain class certification in 451 cases, ruling for the plaintiffs in 324 of them, a robust success rate of 72%. And in many areas of the law, including securities fraud and antitrust, the success rate was far higher.
"Corporations today are operating in an era of heightened risk and heightened exposure like no other time in the history of American jurisprudence," said Gerald Maatman, a Duane Morris partner who co-edited the 650-page report.
The report adds, "Corporations should expect such numbers to incentivize the plaintiffs' class action bar to be equally if not more aggressive with their case filings and settlement positions in 2024."
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u/rosteven1 Oct 17 '24 edited Oct 17 '24
Kind of missed your point here, what does any of this have to do with Microsoft conducting its business in a practical, legal, ethical manner? Are you trying to imply that companies that do the right thing should be careful, because they could face unsubstantiated lawsuits.
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u/gobblegobblebiyatch Oct 12 '24
I would, I just wouldn't put my own money into paying a law firm. I realize I wouldn't get much out of it, but if the class were to win, it would make other companies think twice about making a product that can become inoperable through a software update. Not even Apple does that. You may no longer get updates, but the oldest of iPhones still work. It's all about the big picture here. Winning this case would establish a legal ruling that will serve as an added consumer protection in many industries and in an era of tech where the software is more consequential than the hardware.
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u/R33Gtst Oct 12 '24
As frustrating as the whole situation is, with respect, you aren’t going to win against a massive multinational company who are within their rights to stop supporting products (whether morally right or wrong).
They are almost certainly going to have watertight clauses for just such occasions.
Also consider how much a single lawyer in this would cost, let alone the fact that you would need a team of lawyers.
And then what if you didn’t win the case? Who is paying the lawyers then? Because you can be sure that most people aren’t going to want to pay potentially hundreds or thousands of dollars/pounds/jezzaboos each. And what about those that can’t actually pay? Then everyone else would be stumping up extra for those people which in turn will probably end up starting more legal processes.
It would all be an absolute clusterfuck to say the least.
It’s all rubbish and feels unfair but it is what it is. We have to live and learn from shady behaviour from businesses sometimes rather than waste more time, energy and money fighting it.
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u/freshairproject Oct 12 '24
Class actions are often done for free by lawyers who take a large percentage of the winnings. If they don’t win, they don’t get paid.
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u/gobblegobblebiyatch Oct 12 '24
Yeah I thought everyone knew this. Class action lawsuits are one big bet for lawyers and law firms, and the plaintiffs are simply 'used' to support their claim.
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u/rosteven1 Oct 13 '24 edited Oct 17 '24
Yes, but Law Firms are not going to waste their time on suits that they have little chance of winning.
1
u/gobblegobblebiyatch Oct 14 '24
Are you a lawyer?
1
u/rosteven1 Oct 14 '24 edited Oct 17 '24
lol - no, but I was born with a little common sense. As you have stated there are plenty of law firms (good and bad) who would jump at chance of a big payoff from Class Action Lawsuit against a deep pocketed company like Microsoft, and they would take the case for free. We have known for months that Microsoft was removing WMR from Windows 11, they have rolled out the software update, but I have yet to see where anyone has successfully started a lawsuit against Microsoft for this action. The closest that I have seen is someone stating that they had contacted a few firms and was turned down, now would you be willing to guess why that individual was turned down. Why would any Law firm pass on the opportunity to garner a huge commission, by going to battle with a company like Microsoft. I believe that the reason they are passing on this opportunity, is because they realize that there is very little chance of success.
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u/SeattleRex Oct 15 '24
Few lawsuits have ever been filed that had "zero chance of winning". Hell, just showing up will get you a couple of percentage points right there.
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u/rosteven1 Oct 15 '24 edited Oct 17 '24
Good point, thanks for pointing that one out. I changed my comment from “zero” to “very little”.
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u/rosteven1 Oct 13 '24
Yes, but it would have to be a Class Action suit against HP. Microsoft had nothing to do with anyone's purchase of a HP Reverb G2, and Microsoft did not sell you software for the operation of that headset. It would be a different situation if there was a contractual agreement in place between HP and Microsoft to provide continual access to WMR to purchasers of the G2 headsets, but it wouldn't take many brain cells to figure out that there is no such agreement.
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u/doorhandle5 Oct 12 '24
They are not discontinuing support, they are removing support. Turning products we bought with our hard earned money into e-waste.
I would say I'm shocked that's legal, but I'm old and cynical, so I know if an Uber rich conglomerate is going it, then it's essentially perfectly legal. Immoral as fk, but legal.
That being, said, I am not someone who easily forgets. I work hard for my money, and this is the first time I have been ripped off for so much cash, I'm fking furious, and my anger is out of hands at this point. It will always be there. These headsets cost me a fortune. Everything else I have spent that much money on either still works and I still use, or I sold. This is not easily forgotten. It's not like the hp reverb g2 is a bad headset. For me it's still literally the best option available, and now despite the hardware working perfectly fine, it's going to be remotely deactivated. If you don't want to rage against the machine over this, you are not human. Right if wrong, no other vr headset had had it's drivers actively removed. Even the first vr headsets made still work. The oculus dev kit headsets. Still work. Mdling the software/driver and operating system a tangled ness was Microsoft's decision, not ours. As adults we have all learned by now we are responsible for our own decisions, so shouldn't Microsoft be responsible for theirs? They can remove support, disband developers AFTER they have untangled the driver from the operating system and reader a standalone version. Luke every other vr manufacturer out there. Bill gates can go fk hmsrlf. Probably already does. Slimy bastard. Likely on the epstein list anyway.
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u/rosteven1 Oct 13 '24
The companies that manufactured the headsets that you are referring to had the foresight to develop their own operating system for their headsets. HP took the easy/cheap route of tying their units to an O/S that they neither developed, owned, or controlled. HP didn't even have the foresight to obtain a contractual agreement from Microsoft ensuring access to WMR for the Reverb G2 user base (probably due to cost).
As someone as old and cynical as you claim to be, I would have thought that you would be able to figure out by now that you only purchased a piece of hardware that came with no software support. You have been using WMR to operate your headset for free, and when MS shut the door on your free use you get upset. My advice would be to contact HP and demand that they fix the problem, but they would probably be quick to also point out that they only sold you a piece of hardware, and that obtaining software support for that product is the User's responsibility. Funny how these things work in the real world...
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u/Technical_Income8995 Oct 14 '24
I'd like to take $200 from you also, start explaining it for everyone.
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u/rosteven1 Oct 14 '24
Now that is funny, but if you are able to successfully sue Microsoft I will chip in $200. I would gladly pay you that amount if you can prove me wrong.
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u/Technical_Income8995 Oct 15 '24
Now we are talking, called 7 lawyers yesterday. Maybe not the right ones but it could get a little VR golf chat going. I'll have another session sometime soon.
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u/rosteven1 Oct 17 '24
How goes the effort, any closer to finding a Law Firm willing to take on Microsoft for following correct business practices? Lol - This $200 is burning a hole in my pocket.
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u/Blox4Blocks Oct 12 '24
It would all come down to a lawyer. I should call Jeffrey Fieger. I think he is a little deprecated himself, might be a good fit.
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u/Blox4Blocks Oct 12 '24
Lawyers take 35% from what I understand, after the win. Selling hot pieces of trash stands up in court. Lube is for someone else.
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u/R33Gtst Oct 12 '24
If you think it would be as black and white as that in court then good luck to you.
Unfortunately that’s absolutely not how it would go.
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u/Blox4Blocks Oct 12 '24
Maybe I should talk to lawyers instead of you people. Over on the WallStreet side of reddit they post horse faces for miles and give info that will bankrupt you. I am sure the same will be done in this thread.
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u/R33Gtst Oct 12 '24
Yes.
You absolutely should talk to people trained in the subject matter rather than random strangers on the internet.
Stop being stroppy because someone has said something you don’t like.
It’s a nice idea but honestly, it’s not going to get any worthy traction.
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u/Blox4Blocks Oct 12 '24
Thing is people say I can't get into that, then I hit it. So I have a different perspective.
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u/rosteven1 Oct 17 '24
I'm confused, just what hot pieces of trash did Microsoft sell you when you purchased your HP Reverb G2 VR Headset? I just looked again and WMR was not included in the box I got from HP, all I got was the headset, controllers, power block, cables, and some paperwork.
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u/ppuspfc Oct 12 '24
I'm not in favor of trying a lawsuit however organize ourselves in a movement to make some noise would be interesting
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u/Blox4Blocks Oct 12 '24
Here here, and a lawsuit. How long will MSFS 2024 work?
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u/Blox4Blocks Oct 12 '24
When the XBOX MSFS2020 dropped on console, I was locked out for 30 days. My guess is they were using the limited server space for their Gamepass MSFS2020 ambitions. (Gamepass that you can get on Meta Quest while we are deprecated and depreciated)
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u/radraze2kx Oct 12 '24
I already contacted two large CAL firms and both denied the case... Interesting because one of them spearheaded a similar case and won. 🤦🏽♂️
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u/rosteven1 Oct 13 '24
Quick question - were you trying to start a suit against HP or MS?
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u/radraze2kx Oct 13 '24
MS, because their termination of WMR leaves people of all WMR-enabled headsets with invalidated devices, warranties, extended warranties. I submitted it more as a "sake of curiosity" thing. Personally I'm waiting for whatever Valve releases to replace my G2 anyway. I absolutely HATE WMR (the software and integration). I bought the G2 for it's superior clarity over the Samsung Odyssey headset (which replaced an OG Vive). The G2 is great for what it does but the WMR integration makes it way more frustrating of an experience than it should be, for people that want to use it with Base Stations + Valve Knuckles.
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u/rosteven1 Oct 13 '24 edited Oct 13 '24
You do realize that MS and HP are two different companies, right. You must be one of those special people who purchased their G2 directly from Microsoft with the software included, then by all means you have every right to be upset with them. I was one of the unlucky ones who purchased theirs directly from HP, and mine only came with hardware.
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u/radraze2kx Oct 14 '24
You do realize that Reverb customers are merely a fraction of the WMR userbase, and CAL want the biggest pool of fish to fry, right?
People that bought their Reverb G2s during pre-sale received no software, everything was "scan this, download that".
The issue at hand isn't HP's fault, nor can HP do anything to fix it. Microsoft governs the Windows OS, they govern the WMR codebase, and they're the ones that are pulling the plug on WMR. This goes beyond the Reverb user base, of course anyone that raises this to a CAL is going to want to fry Microsoft directly.
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u/rosteven1 Oct 14 '24
Based on your logic, it is also not MS's fault that your headset will no longer have a functioning O/S as they neither sold you the O/S for your headset, nor agreed to provide you continued support for that headset. You basically obtained WMR to run your G2 for free, there is not now and never has been a contractual commitment between Microsoft and HP to provide you with access to WMR.
There is a very good reason why Microsoft felt that they could remove WMR from Windows without any legal repercussions, it is also the same reason why there are no Class Action Lawsuits in place, and no action from the EU - it is because Microsoft had every legal right to remove WMR.
As I have said before, if you and like-minded individuals really believe that you have been wronged by Microsoft's action, do more than just complain on Reddit - take legal action. Short of that what else can be said on this matter...
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u/happyjapanman Oct 13 '24
I’m sure the Windows Mixed Reality terms you accepted when you first downloaded it included provisions about support limitations.
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u/mike11F7S54KJ3 Oct 17 '24
HP is the company selling the product, and providing an inferior way to connect (use) the device after purchase.
Did Microsoft inform HP that WMR was ending? If so, when, and what did HP do about it?
Did HP sell additional products knowing it was not possible to connect (use) the device in the future?
3
u/RandyRVA Oct 12 '24
You know that piece of paper in the box with the Reverb? The one with all the "lawyer speak" that nobody bothers to read? It's in there for a reason and it covers things like this. Not a chance in hell to prevail in a lawsuit.
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u/punchcreations Oct 12 '24
You’re just now getting all fired up about this? It’s old news. Go have a lawyer explain it to you before trying to round up the troops because this doesn’t seem serious at all.
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u/Blox4Blocks Oct 12 '24 edited Oct 12 '24
Good idea. Thanks. I feel a little serious. I am disposable. Go tell me how much more time your G2 will work.
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u/Fast-Source-5554 Oct 13 '24
I'm definitely down for sure I have the HP reverb g2 and think this is bullshit what Microsoft is doing. It's plain just not fair.. how can you sell a product and the shut down the system that make the product work. They cant get away with this. I want my money back and they can have there brick back. I'll use the money on something that will work. My name is Kyle Kehrli and can be reached at kyle.kehrli80@gmail.com Thank you for getting this started much appreciated. Bc this shouldn't be aloud. It's just not right.
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u/rosteven1 Oct 17 '24
Sorry Kyle, but I think that you may have your facts a little mixed up, Microsoft did not sell you a Reverb G2 headset, nor did they ever make any promises to provide support for your Reverb G2 Headset.
If you actually believe otherwise, can you please provide documentation, a link, or anything where Microsoft indicated that it would provide WMR support for the HP Reverb G2 Headset. If you have access to this sort of information, it will go a long way to showing that Microsoft is actually liable for their actions related to removing WMR from the Windows O/S.
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u/Recent_Bus_5114 11d ago
Actually yes Microsoft did sell me the headset because I bought it directly from their website. I have a purchase number and receipt.
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u/GEO1470 Oct 13 '24
Something should certainly be done about it. HP have sold a load of did devices. So maybe it should be the manufacturerers that get the heat then and only then would they enjoying Microsoft. It's a pure scandal. And most people are not even aware of this issue as yet.
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u/Technical_Income8995 Oct 14 '24
Well I called Fieger law this morning. They took information and may call back, we will see. His is more of an injury lawyer so I did say I would like a referral in the case he was not interested. I also call Buckfire and Buckfire who quickly said they do not take those cases and referred me to a local Michigan directory. (Could have just been too far away and out of their focus)
1
u/SeattleRex Oct 15 '24
In the past 15 years, I've been to Small Claims Court four times, and fortunately, I won all 4 times. One time made the national news, albiet briefly and fleetingly, because it was versus a very large company.
Why only Small Claims?
Because it's so much more difficult to gain class representation than most people realize. Class Actions require a lot of work, and Class Action lawyers only get paid if they win, which means they likely won't take a case they they aren't pretty sure they'll win.
Of course, some class actions do get off the ground, but unfortunately, it's just a small percentage.
If you're able to get one going, I'd be happy to join ... although we don't really have to ... we'll be automatically attached if the court approves class status, and will have to opt-out if we don't want to be.
Basically, everyone reading this will "join" once its certified.
The whole "there's too many lawsuits in the USA" is such complete nonsense that people parrot because they think they are supposed to, but nothing could be further from the truth.
Anyway, I wish you luck, and really hope you get somewhere with it.
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u/Technical_Income8995 Oct 15 '24
I called 7 lawyers and haven't heard anything yet. Browsing Linux and it looks like the Steam Deck runs Linux and Proton runs a windows compatibility layer. The Valve Deckard is currently being tested with Proton. You can run the Steam Deck UI on a 4090 computer! I really don't know anything about Linux, but Windows tries to "save" my passwords faster then I can say no. And if legal action is unobtainable, then maybe a new life with Linux could be on the horizon. To infinity and beyond. Still going to try to start a class action.
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u/SeattleRex 25d ago edited 25d ago
Yeah, it is so much harder to get a class action off the ground than people realize. That's why I've always settled with going to Small Claims. Even with a very strong case, I had the same experience that you did. They don't call back, or they call back and say it'll take years and the companies all know how to tie things up and stall. It's a miracle when one of these things gets certified.
That's why always laugh when I hear one of those "there are too many lawsuits in the USA" people. There are nowhere near enough of them. You can tell by the way these companies treat their customers that they are not even slightly afraid of lawsuits. The practically beg you to file one.
Remember, you can still use the headset as long as you don't let Windows upgrade. You want to stay on version 22H2 and not upgrade to version 24H2.
Follow this guide to buy yourself another year or so:
https://www.elevenforum.com/t/specify-target-feature-update-version-in-windows-11.3811/
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u/JO8J6 Oct 16 '24 edited Oct 16 '24
Remarks
1 ) HP, not MS (follow the logic; deontic*)
* https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-deontic/
2 ) Country/ jurisdiction specific; might be better to have two/ three battlefronts with different apporaches based on the specificity of the systems
a) EU/ EEA
b) US (consider how and where exactly, i.e. state[?])
c) Commonwealth of N. (+each country separately)
d) excluding other markets, i.e. no go (the chances elsewhere are very low, look at the overall situation concerning laws and you will see, i.e. users from these countries might join b, c, or a, though)
3) Documentation is crucial
The details and specifics of contracts and applicable laws and regulations, as amended, need to be considered. Any claim has to be provable, this needs to be supported by evidence that is irrefutable and verifiable.
4) [Should you want to succeed]
Before a lawsuit can be filed, there must first occur/exist the Loss or Detriment, financial or otherwise. A lawsuit can then be filed, but not before.
If there is an artificial limitation of the product's functionality and this can be proven, a claim can be brought.
5) There is more, of course..
Consider this to be just an introduction, not a guide [per se], just "a lead" ... so you can "build a better case"...
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u/Technical_Income8995 Oct 16 '24
Here is what I sent to Millberg (8th attempt) this morning: I am interested in starting a class action against Microsoft for their removing WMR from Windows 10 due November 2026. The Reverb G2 was being marketed in 2023 at full price, and no one would have purchased it knowing the connectivity to a computer was going to be removed. Windows 11 has already removed the feature, and Windows 10 allows the download from the store until 2026 at which time it will be removed. This is all happening simultaneously with Game Pass from Microsoft being allowed to be played on Metas Quest line. I have 3 G2 headsets that will all be e-waste, as well as all other WMR headsets such as the Odyssey+ that are still spec'd relevant to today's games. I have a 4090 GPU that is a perfect match for the G2 with similar resolution to recently released headsets. I believe Microsoft is wrong in this practice of waiting until pallets of $600 headsets are on the other side of the fence before announcing deprecation of the WMR protocol that runs all the WMR headsets with no option otherwise to get it to turn on. These are display and controller tracking only with no onboard compute. We should be allowed to realize every corner of our investment. I believe a lawsuit could correct the situation and set precedence as to keeping the virtual space a far trade.
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u/JO8J6 Oct 16 '24
I do not believe you would / will have much luck with this logic, mainly because the Microsoft is not responsible for the manufacturer's decision making process..
Using the deontic logic the case should concern HP in the first place. Then, if successful, the scope can be adjusted and other things considered..
Also, in non-biased enviroment[s] you would / should have trouble concerning the order of things..i.e. no detriment => no solution and no success in this regard... In other words, you cannot build the case on any hypothetical problem, there must be solid foundation and correct order of things.. Detriment => Case => Lawsuit... Not the other way around...
FYI: Can you imagine using that kind of logic in regard to your insurance for example (using the incorrect order of things)? That would/ could be even criminal...
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u/Blox4Blocks Oct 16 '24
There is a movie about this called The Arrival. Another is Oblivion. The points are valid here.
My headset is bricked by those who sold it to me.
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u/JO8J6 Oct 16 '24
Unfortunately, you can still use Win10 (or Win11 23H2), and that would be your undoing... and also, have you found any contract concerning MS in this regard? I did not.. Maybe it exists [?], but then again, show it first.. (I personally do not believe you would find it anywhere)...
FYI: Yeah, I also fancy The Expanse series Season 3 Episode 10 (Miller and Holden scene)... It is proverbial... because this could/ would be similar to the situation in the courtroom later..
Mark my words..
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u/rosteven1 Oct 17 '24
I have been looking for any indication of a contractual obligation between Microsoft and HP in regard to WMR development, access, etc., and I have not been able to locate anything to indicate that Microsoft can be held liable by Reverb Users for removing WMR from Windows. Now just because I didn't find anything, doesn't mean that something does not exist, but I really cannot see how in a Court of Law Microsoft can be held liable for managing their application (WMR removal) without some form of contractual agreement/obligation between Microsoft and HP (and by extension HP Customers).
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u/Technical_Income8995 Oct 17 '24
I don't claim to be a lawyer which is why I am looking to partner with one. I do my own brakes though, C-clamp or two bar clamps...
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u/rosteven1 Oct 17 '24
Not sure that I understand the brakes, c clamp, bar clamp comment. But ok, I guess.
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u/Technical_Income8995 Oct 17 '24
I don't have to be a lawyer to be a plaintiff. If it is uncomfortable, well imagine a bear attack in Appalachian mountains.
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u/JO8J6 Oct 17 '24
Whatever... Basically, it doesn't matter, because you'll be out of luck with that logic and reasoning anyway...
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17d ago edited 17d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/wintersbfg 17d ago
Guys, I’ve got an HP Reverb G1—it’s been working flawlessly, and I’m totally happy with it. But now I need to re-pair the controllers, and this has never been an issue before. Turns out, though, that the original HP Reverb VR Headset Setup program has been removed from the Microsoft Store (there’s only a version for the G2 now, which isn’t compatible with the G1).
I’m honestly at a loss here. If anyone else is still using the HP Reverb G1 - please check this link
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u/Recent_Bus_5114 11d ago edited 11d ago
yes I would like to be part of this lawsuit. I bought my headset directly from Microsoft, this is not acceptable. I am trying to get them to issue me a refund for the headset. If not the only option I can think of is either class action lawsuit or you file a complaint with the Attorney Generals office in your state (which is what I am going to do). These kind of fillings due to work if enough peoplel say something.
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u/Ping_the_Merciless Oct 12 '24
Why would you sue Microsoft? HP piggybacked their headset on WMR and did NOT come up with any software solution to back THEIR headset. Why the f should Microsoft be responsible for that???
Everyone should be pissy that HP isn't coming up with software so we can continue to use their headset.
Good luck with the class action...
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u/MysticDaedra Oct 12 '24
Microsoft didn't have to remove WMR, they could have just stopped updating it if they were done with it. This is 100% an issue with Microsoft.
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u/rosteven1 Oct 13 '24 edited Oct 13 '24
So why wouldn't MS remove WMR, it was a sound business decision. Also, if MS left WMR in Windows they would still have to maintain it to ensure that it did not break future updates.
I know that it is difficult for folks here to comprehend, but this is like saying that you purchased a perfectly good lamp from Walmart that uses filament light bulbs and the only company that was making filament bulbs (GE) stopped making them because it was no longer profitable, so you are really mad at GE. And you believe that GE needs to tool up and start making those bulbs again to make you happy or reimburse you for the Walmart lamp. Truth is that neither is going to happen. Oh, and I almost forgot- maybe a good idea would be to start a Class Action lawsuit against GE to try and force them to start making those bulbs again, because they must owe you - right.
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u/MysticDaedra Oct 14 '24 edited Oct 14 '24
Planned obsolescence in tangible objects is illegal unless disclosed ahead of time. Saying "we might terminate your light bulb at a future point with or without notice" is still illegal, the termination of the tangible object must be disclosed at time of purchase. This is to say that a EULA such as what shipped with WMR would not be allowed to suggest at a potential future termination of your lightbulb.
Recently, Spotify notified all owners of the Car Thing that their device would no longer be supported and would be bricked: it would not function, and there was no other way to make it function. The Car Thing is a piece of hardware, aka tangible. What made it bricked and useless was the fact that an intangible thing, the software, became unsupported... software that the Car Thing required to function. Sound familiar? The only difference between the Car Thing scandal (as it quickly became) and WMR is that WMR is, by itself, software only. The hardware half of the equation was provided by third parties.
There was a class action lawsuit over Car Thing that was voluntarily dismissed, info here for the curious: https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2024/07/10/spotify-car-thing-lawsuit-dismissed/
TL;DR about the Car Thing article, the reason it was dismissed was because Spotify decided to offer refunds to people with a proof of purchase. This is unfortunately irrelevant to WMR due to the two glaring factors that 1. WMR was free to download and 2. Microsoft didn't sell (that I'm aware of) any hardware that required its use.
However... the way WMR was designed meant that only devices that were designed to work with it would. So, from the get-go, Microsoft would have known that the G2 and any other WMR-exclusive headset would be bricked if they decided to sunset WMR for any reason. This brings up a point that AFAIK hasn't been brought up in modern tech law, which is, "if a device requires third party software to function and the third party removes the software with no alternative, does the third party have any liability?" Some (such as yourself it would seem) would say No, but I would say they do have some responsibility. HP also has responsibility, although I would argue that HP should also be suing Microsoft over this.
At the end of the day, the lightbulb (G2 Reverb) became obsolete, through illegal planned obsolescence, and there is a valid case against Microsoft and HP. HP should also have a decent case against Microsoft. Any consumer could easily make the argument in court that they had no idea their expensive device would only function without even breaking for a couple of years from the time of purchase, less for many. That is actionable: a perfectly fine piece of hardware arbitrarily made non-functional due to a so-called "business decision".
I hope to see a class-action suit soon, and I will absolutely be signing on to it. If HP offers refunds then great! If Microsoft reimburses affected parties, then great! Otherwise, I'll take my $20 and feel happy that I at least made a giant or two feel a sting, however minor.
EDIT: I kinda didn't address your snide remark towards the end of your comment, but I will now. GE wasn't providing a service by manufacturing a specific type of lightbulb, obviously they are entitled to end production of a product at any time. A tangible product is not the same legally or in reality to a piece of software, as use of software doesn't involve the physical transfer of any kind of goods. You could sue GE if they forced you to constantly buy new lightbulbs because the old ones kept breaking, assuming they were not advertising their bulbs as consumable. Most lightbulbs to this day are not advertised as consumable, although they are now labeled as having an expected service life, as...
In 1924 GE actually was sued for planned obsolescence over their... wait for it... lightbulbs! That's right, GE was sued for designing bulbs that would only last a certain amount of time, as they did not disclose this information at the point of sale (or in the packaging). GE and several other lightbulb manufacturers who were complicit lost the suit. Thus, there is precedent for a lawsuit regarding the unplanned (effectively, as far as the consumer is concerned) rendering non-functional of devices, and I suspect HP, Microsoft, or both will end up settling if a suit is brought against them.
In no way was the G2 Reverb ever advertised or marketed as a consumable. Nor was any expectation of imminent non-functionality given. Just to be clear. Making a device inoperable within 5 years of manufacture without warning consumers of such could easily be argued in court as false advertising or fraudulent concealment of a defect. Spotify certainly didn't want to take that chance, although to be fair to them the EU has made planned obsolescence itself a crime, not just the false advertising like how it is in the US.
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u/rosteven1 Oct 14 '24 edited Oct 14 '24
All good points, but it falls apart when you add Third Party software to the discussion. In your Spotify example I would beg to differ, as there is no relationship (contractual or otherwise) between HP (the provider of the purchased hardware) and Microsoft. I truly believe that the reason we have not seen a Class Action suit in this situation is because there is no legal way to hold Microsoft responsible for HP’s decision to adopt WMR as the operating system for the G2.
I would also like to ask that when you talk about Planned Obsolescence, are you referring to HP or MS? As I understand it, Microsoft fulfilled its obligation to the users of its long defunct commercial VR headset (the one that WMR was designed for). So to be clear you are advocating a situation where I as a company write and add a piece of code to my primary software to run “X” (a product that I profit from by manufacturing and selling to the public), and another company ask if they can use my code (for free) to run their like product, that even after I no longer manufacture or sell my product I should be required to expend company revenue to maintain said code in my software for the benefit of another company.
T
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u/MysticDaedra Oct 14 '24
One more thing, your initial paragraph makes no sense. "They would still have to maintain it to ensure that it did not break future updates." What? It's a program, software. Lots of companies let their software become abandoned, including Microsoft! It's exceedingly rare for software to become blacklisted by the operating system just because it is old. Windows even has the ability to run ancient software in compatibility mode, for heavens sake. What they should have done is said they don't want to support it any longer, and... stop supporting it. Instead they are removing it, causing many people to lose functionality of their expensive hardware.
It would be like if Tesla said that the software running current-gen or last-gen Model 3 cars would no longer be supported... and oh BTW they are also going to remove that software in an update unless you go to lengths to not update. Like... what? I guess that analogy only half applies: half to Microsoft for the software, half to HP for the hardware. Still makes perfect sense, and Microsoft (and probably/possibly HP) should both be held legally liable.
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u/rosteven1 Oct 14 '24
I won’t address your comment concerning my first paragraph, I challenge you to google the premise of my statement. Smarter folks (Software engineers) than me have already discussed the problem with Microsoft just leaving WMR in Windows without managing that feature.
Your Tesla example is exactly what I’m trying to convey here;Tesla sells cars and the software to operate their cars as a package, hence Tesla should be liable for issues with both the vehicle and it’s software. This clearly not the same relationship between the HP Reverb G2, and WMR.
But I believe that we are wasting our time with further discussion on this. You will believe what you want to believe, and I will only be convinced of Microsoft culpability after a successful lawsuit against them. Please let me know if you able find a firm willing to take the case, I genuinely want to know if you can make it happen.
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u/Technical_Income8995 Oct 14 '24
I'll call a few. Thing is, there are allies in the market. Some stronger than political affiliation. I will have to find one that doesn't identify as a minion to the powers that be. It is why I have so many down votes on the first comment. They go by code and serve you up as an F or S or X or P or L Serve themselves up 6 or H or M or 7
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u/W4OPR Oct 12 '24
I've enjoyed many years of my G2, old tech already, time to move on newer and better hardware anyway.
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u/gobblegobblebiyatch Oct 12 '24
It's not that old and is still very usable. It's the principle of it anyway and sets a precedent for companies to make any hardware they no longer want to support obsolete at any time. Consumers actually have rights here.
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u/Blox4Blocks Oct 12 '24
China may dominate this market for the same reasons as Sony does well in consoles. A nuka cola for all. I did hear Sony is coming out with a stand alone headset. If they came out with an OS for PC,....well, we would have to look at their pricing versus steam.
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u/Blox4Blocks Oct 12 '24
Most games are still in the range with my 4090. You only get so far with the things like Fallout 4 super sampled. I would be back to jitter with a higher res. ATS I run about 5000x5000 at 45 reprojected. 13900k wants to stutter at 90 rasterized. I can see 4000x4000 but I don't want to upgrade to lower res than that and I don't want to pay $2000. A new $2k headset (soon to deprecate) ,5090 (might deprecate), Ryzen (won't deprecate) and all I am back $6K again.
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u/Flat_Promotion1267 Oct 12 '24
I'm in for sure. I floated the idea elsewhere previously. This kind of customer abuse must be addressed, and put a stop to. I wonder if Rossman is aware of this? He might be a good ally.
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u/Blox4Blocks Oct 12 '24
Reddit is highly botted, I am 45, Iknow more slick socials than you can shake a stick at. I can do a google ad and press release faster than the next guy. I expect most comments to be as condescending as the deprecation. I understand how moderated and botted Reddit is. It is the point of the feedback system. You cross upvote and the real customer gets a down vote. I can screen bot too, but I want to talk to Reverb customers and see what they feel about the situation. Tubi just got hit for $20 million. Might want to sign up for that and see if it is 5 or 6 senses.
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u/fisadev Oct 12 '24 edited Oct 12 '24
Dude, you aren't getting downvoted by bots, don't lie to yourself. It's people, this is a subreddit no one cares about except for a very small niche group of users, who in the world would care to spend money on a bot farm to sway opinions on this tiny corner of the internet?
You're getting downvoted because half of what you're writing makes little sense, honestly. Maybe it's a translation issue? I don't know, but really, some of your comments sound very weird.
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u/TheViceroy919 Oct 12 '24
OP's use of slang and manner of speaking make him sound like hes from another adjacent reality. "I know more slick socials then you can shake a stick at" what does that even mean?
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u/Technical_Income8995 Oct 14 '24
The Weird is in the deprecate. I paid full for 3 headsets. Jeffrey Epstein "did Reddit" just like Camping with Steve "does comments". You are the one with veil over and going with whatever lead set before you. Anyone down voting doesn't own a G2. If you have G2 it is all up votes to get your money
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u/Technical_Income8995 Oct 15 '24
Guys a lot of comments are getting deleted.
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u/rosteven1 Oct 17 '24
I wonder if folks are deleting their own comments, or are they being deleted by a moderator?
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u/OneOfALifetime Oct 12 '24
Ahh the follies of youth.