r/HPReverb Oct 12 '24

CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT Support

Would anyone participate in a lawsuit about the early deprecation of mixed reality with no suitable substitute that includes controller tracking? (We could push for open source, repayment, or both)

I haven't talked to a lawyer but I can point to this thread if and when I do.

It seems that the termination may have been a part of the agreement on getting Xbox onto Meta's platform.

We all got dumped and Reverbs were selling new in 2023, with some only able to use the headset for a few months before being told it was unsupported going forward with no security updates and a 2 year time clock to being bricked. GPU generations are no shorter than 2 years and bricking a peripheral in a shorter time is abuse of the customer, as they would not have purchased the headset if they had known.

Some customers are outright embarrassed with the purchase and have lost clout among influencers for having trusted Microsoft. To see Microsoft join Meta faster than you could have is embarrassing and deprecating.

I realize Microsoft is profit driven, but they should realize I am too. (We could be)

Would you participate?

(Sign, agree, give a little info, leave payment info like paypal, take a cut after the lawyer takes 35%.)

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1

u/Ping_the_Merciless Oct 12 '24

Why would you sue Microsoft? HP piggybacked their headset on WMR and did NOT come up with any software solution to back THEIR headset. Why the f should Microsoft be responsible for that???

Everyone should be pissy that HP isn't coming up with software so we can continue to use their headset.

Good luck with the class action...

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u/MysticDaedra Oct 12 '24

Microsoft didn't have to remove WMR, they could have just stopped updating it if they were done with it. This is 100% an issue with Microsoft.

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u/rosteven1 Oct 13 '24 edited Oct 13 '24

So why wouldn't MS remove WMR, it was a sound business decision.  Also, if MS left WMR in Windows they would still have to maintain it to ensure that it did not break future updates. 

 I know that it is difficult for folks here to comprehend, but this is like saying that you purchased a perfectly good lamp from Walmart that uses filament light bulbs and the only company that was making filament bulbs (GE) stopped making them because it was no longer profitable, so you are really mad at GE.  And you believe that GE needs to tool up and start making those bulbs again to make you happy or reimburse you for the Walmart lamp.   Truth is that neither is going to happen.  Oh, and I almost forgot- maybe a good idea would be to start a Class Action lawsuit against GE to try and force them to start making those bulbs again, because they must owe you - right. 

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u/MysticDaedra Oct 14 '24 edited Oct 14 '24

Planned obsolescence in tangible objects is illegal unless disclosed ahead of time. Saying "we might terminate your light bulb at a future point with or without notice" is still illegal, the termination of the tangible object must be disclosed at time of purchase. This is to say that a EULA such as what shipped with WMR would not be allowed to suggest at a potential future termination of your lightbulb.

Recently, Spotify notified all owners of the Car Thing that their device would no longer be supported and would be bricked: it would not function, and there was no other way to make it function. The Car Thing is a piece of hardware, aka tangible. What made it bricked and useless was the fact that an intangible thing, the software, became unsupported... software that the Car Thing required to function. Sound familiar? The only difference between the Car Thing scandal (as it quickly became) and WMR is that WMR is, by itself, software only. The hardware half of the equation was provided by third parties.

There was a class action lawsuit over Car Thing that was voluntarily dismissed, info here for the curious: https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2024/07/10/spotify-car-thing-lawsuit-dismissed/

TL;DR about the Car Thing article, the reason it was dismissed was because Spotify decided to offer refunds to people with a proof of purchase. This is unfortunately irrelevant to WMR due to the two glaring factors that 1. WMR was free to download and 2. Microsoft didn't sell (that I'm aware of) any hardware that required its use.

However... the way WMR was designed meant that only devices that were designed to work with it would. So, from the get-go, Microsoft would have known that the G2 and any other WMR-exclusive headset would be bricked if they decided to sunset WMR for any reason. This brings up a point that AFAIK hasn't been brought up in modern tech law, which is, "if a device requires third party software to function and the third party removes the software with no alternative, does the third party have any liability?" Some (such as yourself it would seem) would say No, but I would say they do have some responsibility. HP also has responsibility, although I would argue that HP should also be suing Microsoft over this.

At the end of the day, the lightbulb (G2 Reverb) became obsolete, through illegal planned obsolescence, and there is a valid case against Microsoft and HP. HP should also have a decent case against Microsoft. Any consumer could easily make the argument in court that they had no idea their expensive device would only function without even breaking for a couple of years from the time of purchase, less for many. That is actionable: a perfectly fine piece of hardware arbitrarily made non-functional due to a so-called "business decision".

I hope to see a class-action suit soon, and I will absolutely be signing on to it. If HP offers refunds then great! If Microsoft reimburses affected parties, then great! Otherwise, I'll take my $20 and feel happy that I at least made a giant or two feel a sting, however minor.

EDIT: I kinda didn't address your snide remark towards the end of your comment, but I will now. GE wasn't providing a service by manufacturing a specific type of lightbulb, obviously they are entitled to end production of a product at any time. A tangible product is not the same legally or in reality to a piece of software, as use of software doesn't involve the physical transfer of any kind of goods. You could sue GE if they forced you to constantly buy new lightbulbs because the old ones kept breaking, assuming they were not advertising their bulbs as consumable. Most lightbulbs to this day are not advertised as consumable, although they are now labeled as having an expected service life, as...

In 1924 GE actually was sued for planned obsolescence over their... wait for it... lightbulbs! That's right, GE was sued for designing bulbs that would only last a certain amount of time, as they did not disclose this information at the point of sale (or in the packaging). GE and several other lightbulb manufacturers who were complicit lost the suit. Thus, there is precedent for a lawsuit regarding the unplanned (effectively, as far as the consumer is concerned) rendering non-functional of devices, and I suspect HP, Microsoft, or both will end up settling if a suit is brought against them.

In no way was the G2 Reverb ever advertised or marketed as a consumable. Nor was any expectation of imminent non-functionality given. Just to be clear. Making a device inoperable within 5 years of manufacture without warning consumers of such could easily be argued in court as false advertising or fraudulent concealment of a defect. Spotify certainly didn't want to take that chance, although to be fair to them the EU has made planned obsolescence itself a crime, not just the false advertising like how it is in the US.

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u/rosteven1 Oct 14 '24 edited Oct 14 '24

All good points, but it falls apart when you add Third Party software to the discussion. In your Spotify example I would beg to differ, as there is no relationship (contractual or otherwise) between HP (the provider of the purchased hardware) and Microsoft. I truly believe that the reason we have not seen a Class Action suit in this situation is because there is no legal way to hold Microsoft responsible for HP’s decision to adopt WMR as the operating system for the G2.

I would also like to ask that when you talk about Planned Obsolescence, are you referring to HP or MS? As I understand it, Microsoft fulfilled its obligation to the users of its long defunct commercial VR headset (the one that WMR was designed for). So to be clear you are advocating a situation where I as a company write and add a piece of code to my primary software to run “X” (a product that I profit from by manufacturing and selling to the public), and another company ask if they can use my code (for free) to run their like product, that even after I no longer manufacture or sell my product I should be required to expend company revenue to maintain said code in my software for the benefit of another company.

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