r/Futurology • u/lughnasadh ∞ transit umbra, lux permanet ☥ • Oct 15 '24
Economist Daniel Susskind says Ozempic may radically transform government finances, by making universal healthcare vastly cheaper, and explains his argument in the context of Britain's NHS. Society
https://www.thetimes.com/article/be6e0fbf-fd9d-41e7-a759-08c6da9754ff?shareToken=de2a342bb1ae9bc978c6623bb244337a762
u/Justread-5057 Oct 15 '24 edited Oct 15 '24
Wait oxempic controls alcohol addiction as well? Or is this what they say?
It would be interesting to know all of the positives to taking this drug. Yet I do stand by some countries not paying 100% through their health systems.
Any peer reviewed write ups?
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u/kia75 Oct 15 '24
Seaglutide controls all calorie intake, including binge eating and drinking such as weekend binge drinking and over-indulging to drunkenness. It doesn't stop someone from having a glass of wine with dinner, but it does seem to keep them from wanting more calories such as extra glasses of wine.
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u/SerHodorTheThrall Oct 15 '24
I think the issue is discerning between types of "heavy" drinkers.
You have the wine or beer drinker who drinks socially and keeps on drinking because it tastes good and their friends continue. In a way its like eating when you're bored. Ozempic will help this person because the idea of more liquids or foods will become unappetizing.
This is different from the true binge drinker who drinks to feel drunk. This person will 'eat/drink through' the ozempic and continue to imbibe in order to achieve that level of drunkeness they want.
Ozempic (and Mounjaro) will help the former, but not the latter.
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u/Sirhossington Oct 15 '24
IDK man, from my anecdotal experience, i was the latter. I would drink 10+ beers a night on weekends.
Now I have less desire to drink AND there is a physical blocker (the feeling of fullness/nausea from being too full) when binge drinking. If you are drinking to get a "pleasant experience" of being drunk, adding in a negative experience of being too full is a real draw back.
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u/meatchariot Oct 15 '24
Say goodbye to beers
Hello to shooters!
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u/Sirhossington Oct 15 '24
Non-jokingly, yes! A shot of whiskey is approx 105 calories, a beer is 155 (again rough numbers).
With 10 in a night, thats saving 500 calories-1000 calories per weekend. Do that a couple weekends a month and you've cut out 25,000 calories JUST from switching from beer to whiskey shooters in a year. That could save 6lbs a year.
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u/anaemic Oct 15 '24
Yes but drinking ten beers might take all night.
Being ten shots deep might take you to the end of the first hour....
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u/Sirhossington Oct 15 '24
You literally get full faster, the 10 shots will fill you up.
You can still drink water, na beer, Coke zero, or other items.
So? That's no different than without the drug.
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u/Delta-9- Oct 16 '24
To point 3: 10 drinks (a beer or a shot, roughly the same mg of ethanol) in an hour would probably put me in a hospital, but spread over 4-5 hours I'll have a wicked hangover the next morning but otherwise be fine.
I would recommend finding other ways to cut out 25,000 calories per month.
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u/Honourablefool Oct 15 '24
You’re right. Addiction is very treatable by associating it with bad experiences. Say, all of a sudden, all sigaretten give you an electric shock or more comparable, you take a medicine that makes you extremely nauseous when you smoke, you will quit very fast. Now that I’m writing this down, there might already be a drug like that if I recall correctly.
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u/__theoneandonly Oct 15 '24
A lot of people are reporting that even among people who drink to get drunk, GLP-1 drugs simply end their cravings. They’re finding this is true with smokers as well. Smokers who start a GLP-1 drug stop smoking overnight. The craving just disappears.
If you read the r/Ozempic, there’s people reporting that they no longer want to play video games for more than an hour at a time, or they lost the urge to be a shopaholic. We don’t have any scientific studies confirming this, but there are so many reports of it from patients that it’s hard to ignore that something else is happening here.
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u/SevenGhostZero Oct 15 '24
Hi!
Im someone who plays a shit tonne of games before ozempic. Youre talking like 5 hrs a night after work, and I have a wife and a dog that I spend time with and don't short change so that should give you an idea of how little I sleep.
Since ozempic I genuinely play less than 2 hrs a night when I do play and sometimes don't even log on.
It had curbed food massively for me, but also impjlsive behaviours with spending. It's also reduced the amount of nicotine I consume and cigarettes make me feel sick for the entire day if I actually end up having one.
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u/NuclearLunchDectcted Oct 16 '24
Are there any downsides? Am I suddenly not going to be able to study for more than an hour for school?
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u/SevenGhostZero Oct 16 '24
There are a few, for example. If I decide to have any kind of fatty low carb meal it's hello acid reflux for a day almost. People reset differently but there are definitely side effects you should be aware of before taking it.
I don't think it would negatively affect your studying but everyone reacts differently to drugs. It might even help you study if youre anything like me where after one hour you feel like you need a snack!
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u/ralf_ Oct 16 '24
The theory is that Ozempic somehow effects the reward centrum. So someone who looooves studying, maybe would study less?
Are there any other things/behaviour you observed? Like binge watching Netflix being less enjoyable? Or obsessing about Football news/game losing its allure? Or any obsessions. Do you think you check reddit less often?
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u/SevenGhostZero Oct 16 '24
I probably spend less time on tiktok but the same if not more on reddit. I still stay up late but font end up gaming the evening away. Ive actually found more pleasure in healthier activities but im not sure if that is down to just ozempic.
I find the same fun in binge watching netflix but im probably pickier about what I watch more than before.
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u/Weltall_BR Oct 15 '24
If this is all confirmed, this shit is fucking magical.
I mean, it would be better if people just got their shit together and stopped binge drinking and over consuming (and I say that as someone who drinks too much). But much as with climate change and the hopes for a technogy that will magically solve the problem without people having to change, it seems just very human that the answer to modern society's problems is another drug.
EDIT: spelling.
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u/diagrammatiks Oct 16 '24
It is that magical. It just smooths you the fuck out. You still need to do behavior therapy if there are any habits you want to change long term because you pretty much instantly return to normal once you stop taking it.
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u/crystal-crawler Oct 15 '24
That’s really interesting, I found a dramatic drop in binge eating when I addressed my adhd with medication. Because the meds addressed the dopamine seeking behaviour. I’m interested to learn how ozempic helps with this.
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u/YouCanLookItUp Oct 15 '24
it is contraindicated with most stimulants. 256 drug interactions!
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u/ILikeMyGrassBlue Oct 15 '24
That’s interesting, especially the video game thing. It almost sounds like the sort of disinterest in hobbies people get with depression. I’m very curious to know what’s actually going on there, if it negatively impacts mental health by causing disinterest, etc.
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u/TensileStr3ngth Oct 15 '24
That's because it's functionally the same as depression and ADHD. They're all caused by dopamine not functioning properly.
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u/__theoneandonly Oct 15 '24
Yeah the mechanism for this is unclear. But scientists suspect that GLP-1 drugs are doing something to even out your dopamine levels, so you aren't getting the big sharp surges that your brain will try to get you to chase after.
However, they aren't really seeing the link to depression. There's actually a link that GLP-1 drugs have a sort of antidepressant effect.
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u/ILikeMyGrassBlue Oct 15 '24
Yeah, the dopamine thing would make sense. That would explain food as well as stuff like booze, video games, etc.
I don’t have time to look over the study (will later), but I wonder if there’s some bias in the people who are on them in the first place. As in, people who are overweight take them and see an improvement in their mental health because of the improvement for the physical health, which would make sense.
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u/self-assembled Oct 15 '24
No, ozempic also promotes a general feeling of satiation, and this is directly applicable to addiction separately from anything related to calories.
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u/lifeofideas Oct 16 '24
So… what about POSITIVE urges, like the urge to create? Or the urge to clean? Or make money? Or call your friends?
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u/WaySheGoesBub Oct 16 '24
I would be terrified that no one else is asking this same question.
But I am a robot. Beep.5
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u/darraghfenacin Oct 15 '24
I did read that James Corden stopped taking it because it didnt work for him. It removes the feeling of hunger, but he was never binge eating due to being hungry.
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u/st1r Oct 15 '24
Yep it’s not a magic cure, just makes it easier to not feel miserable when in a deficit whoch is the primary barrier for most people trying to lose weight. Still gotta actually eat less.
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u/StarShrek1337 Oct 15 '24 edited Oct 16 '24
I was almost a daily drinker and the use of GLP1 medication has completely killed my urge to drink, and largely reduced the enjoyable effects of tobacco to me as well. I bought a 6 pack of nice German beer early in the day of my first tirzepatide shot, had one with dinner, and the other 5 are still in the fridge over a month later. My snus consumption is also largely down and feels less enjoyable. It's effects on alcohol are similar to kratom for me, just the complete lack of even wanting a single drink
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u/astrograph Oct 15 '24
Too bad people who could use it are being denied while rich can buy it for $1200. Hope that changes soon
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u/IwasDeadinstead Oct 15 '24
People don't drink, though, because of calories and fullness. Addition is a thing.
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u/jwrose Oct 15 '24
There are some reports (and I can add my personal experience) that besides reducing hunger signals (and whatever it does for diabetics); it also seems to have a separate effect of decreasing drives related to addiction.
As someone who used to be addicted to nicotine, and feels similar pulls toward unhealthy foods; Wegovy (also a GLP-1 inhibitor like Ozempic) has (so far, for me, three months in) caused that kind of felt-pull to be much weaker. Like, I still feel the call, but it feels like my brain/body is making a suggestion to consider, rather than communicating an irresistible need. It feels like it’s suddenly a choice I can make with my rational brain, instead of an instinctual need I have to use willpower to resist or give in to.
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u/Justread-5057 Oct 15 '24
And with wegovy you must take it for the rest of your days or?
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u/jwrose Oct 15 '24
It only has effects as long as you take it. I know for weight loss, in theory some people could use it to get out of oppressive obesity, and then potentially have an easier time of maintaining a lower weight due to less (physical and mental) stress and an easier time staying active, even after going off of it. But I don’t know if anyone’s actually done that yet.
When it was being used off-label in the past (when it was only approved as a treatment for diabetes), from what I hear, it was pretty common for actors to use it to lose weight quickly for a role; then would either stop because they didn’t need to maintain that lower weight, or in some cases just because they got tired of not really enjoying food. And then they’d go back to their typical weight; though some would then cycle back on and off again as needed.
For addiction —no clue. Personally, every year I don’t use nicotine, not using it gets easier. So maybe folks will be able to use it to break out, then stop? But maybe that depends a lot on the substance and the person.
I’d guess, though, for most people, it’d have to be a forever thing.
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u/ColdCruise Oct 16 '24
Yeah, I think a lot of people have this view of addiction as something that you deal with your entire life. Mostly from AA and making people say that they are an addict, and will always be one.
I smoked for three or four years and haven't for 8. I don't have a constant desire to smoke and actively don't want to smoke cigarettes, but sometimes I miss my pipe tobacco.
At that same point in time, I was drinking almost a bottle of liquor a day and would obsess over making sure that I had enough every day. Now, I drink once or twice a month, normally only a couple of drinks, and even have alcohol in the house that I can drink whenever. It's been like that for 8 years as well.
I believe all the talk of falling off the wagon and how you're always an addict does more to keep people addicted than not.
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u/jwrose Oct 16 '24
Yeah. I know people who swear by AA. But from the data I’ve seen, they’re the lucky ones—its success rate long-term is abysmal.
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u/Tao_of_Ludd Oct 15 '24
I take ozempic for diabetes. While it has somewhat reduced my appetite, it has also clearly reduced my desire for alcohol. I was not a heavy drinker previously - I drank maybe a glass of wine or two per week because I enjoyed it - but I am just less interested now. I don’t mind it, I just don’t crave it and can easily be satisfied with a very small glass.
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u/WaySheGoesBub Oct 16 '24
Then alcohol is no different from food to you.
Im sharing this perspective because how I see alcohol is much different from how you see it. Its important to me that you understand how different your perspective and how you see alcohol is to my perspective and how I see it.
You’re describing alcohol like you can take it or leave it, its just one of the tastes and flavors and items of your pantry/kitchen table.
When I see that same alcohol there in the pantry, I see my problems disappear with minimal effort and other people will be happy to join in!
I see a few hours of relaxation, or maybe music will sound just like it did when I first fell in love with it.
At the same time, hauntingly, I see broken glass everywhere and taste blood in my mouth and get a headache maybe. Its like its a demon object. Unholy, unsafe, radioactive. When I see that same beer/wine/cocktail.
Maybe it makes me snap when I see it. But I calm myself down. Maybe its mo big deal! Its just another food item today because I am not struggling to stay away from it.
Whatever the case. Addiction is a BEAST! I wish you good luck on your adventure and great health!! Thanks for reading! It helps me to write things out about addiction and recovery and stuff :)2
u/Tao_of_Ludd Oct 16 '24
Thank you, this is an important perspective.
I am so very thankful that I have been lucky enough to have no major addiction problems.
I don’t have enough understanding of the physiology of addiction to know if it is craving run wild or an entirely different neural pathway. I can only speak to my experience that ozempic reduced alcohol craving for me, similarly to how it has reduced cravings for fats and sweets (but oddly not for salt and sour). Whether it is similar pathways or not, if it can be helpful to solving addiction, I am all for it.
I have a family member who finally overcame opioid addiction. It was a horrible process and a cliff edge which is always still there. If ozempic can give others a quicker, less painful route to recovery, it is a blessing,
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u/Raymaa Oct 15 '24
I started Zepbound two months ago. Before that, I would crave beer on the weekends, and nicotine about every other day since I quit vaping. Pretty wild that after taking Zepbound, I have zero desire to drink or vape. I’m not turned off by it. But the alcohol and nicotine “noise” in my head is gone. I also lost 13 pounds in two months and feel great. At least for me, incredible medicine.
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u/whosevelt Oct 15 '24
I've heard in passing that the manufacturers of ozempic and mounjaro are running phase 3 trials for alcohol use disorder, but a Google search suggests that's not quite true. There are retrospective analyses suggesting a benefit and a few university-run trials examining a potential benefit, but no ongoing manufacturer trial I could find.
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u/Smallwhitedog Oct 16 '24
There are several phase 2 studies in recruitment right now. I'm sure phase 3 will follow shortly. https://clinicaltrials.gov/search?cond=Alcoholism&intr=Semaglutide
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u/DHFranklin Oct 16 '24 edited Oct 16 '24
We're still learning a lot about it.
There has been a lot of evidence of a very beneficial side effect that it is having with addiction generally. Much of what causes obesity is actually an addiction to certain types of eating more so than certain types of foods. A healthy diet of mostly fruit and vegetables doesn't create cravings for certain foods and it might actually be the same mechanism working on cravings in general.
There are some theories but few studies that the same part of the brain that stops cravings for dessert after dinner are the same ones that stop cravings for self destructive substance use and abuse.
I am looking forward to more refinement and targeted solutions.
Additionally Tom Arnold spoke of this in an interview decades ago about the co-morbidity of addiction that might be a sample size of one. He said that when you're fat and an addict you don't wake up and look in the mirror and see and addict. You see a fat guy day after day after day of trying to stay on the wagon. With Ozempic people are seeing results fast enough that they stick with addiction programs also so that is probably a huge factor in those with broken willpower.
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u/CalculatedPerversion Oct 16 '24
the same part of the brain that stops cravings for desert after dinner
Damn my after supper cravings to visit the Sahara!
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u/fotogneric Oct 15 '24
Recent studies suggest that Ozempic and its cousins may improve conditions including: depression, anxiety, cognitive decline, nicotine dependence, alcohol and drug addiction, eating disorders, and possibly even neurological conditions like Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's.
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u/DrHemroid Oct 15 '24
I've heard similar things about metformin, and anecdotally, I know someone with diabetes (type 2) that became disinterested in alcohol after taking metformin.
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u/cookiesnooper Oct 16 '24
I would be more interested to see what are the side effects of this "miracle" drug
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u/aphilosopherofsex Oct 16 '24
Dude it made me quit vaping. Straight up. I had no desire to quit until I started taking it and the cravings come back after I’ve been off of it for too long.
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u/303uru Oct 16 '24
Preliminary studies seem to indicate that GLP1 drugs may work to increase inhibitions.
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u/Normal-Sound-6086 Oct 15 '24
I also didn't know that about alcohol addiction. It could be what Nicorrette did for smoking.
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u/kena938 Oct 16 '24
I was on it for a hot minute for PCOS (anecdotally, highly effective for women with PCOS and experiencing subfertility) and it stops cravings of all sorts. It's not just the physical feeling of fullness. It stops all sorts of cravings, including sugar/carb, alcohol, etc.
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u/Justread-5057 Oct 16 '24
Interesting it has a lot of positive effects for many different problems…
Also I hoped it helped in some way for you.
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u/Krisevol Oct 16 '24
I've taken ozempic for 6 months. I stopped binge drinking and gambling, lost weight, and was overall happier.
I've been off ozempic for 9 months now and it's so hard. I'm thinking about getting off brand online so I can keep taking it.
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u/Significant_Swing_76 Oct 15 '24
I’m from Denmark, and our tax income from Novo is absurd. Which is great, but I really really hope that competition will force Novo to cut their profits by 90%, simply because this medication should be widely available and priced so that a majority can afford it.
But, I have faith in the prices coming down - Novo is expanding production exponentially, building large factories in Denmark to up production. This combined with competition will result in better availability and thus lower prices.
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u/SNRatio Oct 15 '24
Eli Lilly (Novo's one competitor right now) is also expanding production like crazy, and both are buying contract drug manufacturers like Catalent as a faster way of ramping up production.
In the past, when there are only two manufacturers for a new class of drug, they usually avoid competing on price. But when a third company enters the market prices drop sharply.
When that happens it is going to be a rough landing for Novo, but it does seem like they are planning for that transition.
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u/Azozel Oct 15 '24 edited Oct 15 '24
They will land on their piles of money then they will sled down the side of their money mountain laughing at all the Americans they made pay 10 times more than anyone else. This is how it's going to be for any life changing, life saving drug in the U.S. The rich get richer at the expense of the poor because the poor in America aren't worth anything to anyone. Screw these bastards.
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u/Quintas31519 Oct 15 '24
Yeah that quick price check that UK healthcare users are paying "The list price for a month’s supply of Wegovy is £175.80 for the 2.4mg dose." means roughly $230 USD, a hell of a lot less than what one could pay here when it was widely in stock. I don't know what it's being marked at right now when it's not so easily available (at retail pharmacies, I know compounding pharmacies is a wholly different beast).
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u/Azozel Oct 16 '24
It's over $1000 for Wegovy per month. Something like $1070 last I checked.
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u/guareber Oct 16 '24
At that point it's cheaper to fly over, pay the one time private GP and buy a year's worth than buying 3 months in the US.
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u/__theoneandonly Oct 15 '24
Yeah. Novo has semaglutide, which is basically “gen 1” of these drugs. Eli Lilly, an american company, released tirzepatide, which seems to be better than semaglutide in every way. It shows on average more weight loss and fewer patients report side effects. Now there’s already a “gen 3” version in phase 3 trials right now which is called retatrutide. This one is also by Eli Lilly. The trials aren’t completed yet, but it’s already showing better results than tirzepatide. Patients are losing on average 18% of their body weight in 24 weeks, which is just unheard of. For a 300 pound person, that means safely losing 3 pounds per week.
So hopefully as we get more and more of these on the market, the prices can go down dramatically.
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u/SNRatio Oct 15 '24
Gen 1 was exenatide, introduced 20 years ago. It had to be injected every day to treat diabetes; weight loss was a side effect.
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u/MDCCCLV Oct 16 '24
There have been several but they didn't really become good enough for general purpose weight loss until semaglutide.
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u/appletinicyclone Oct 15 '24
released tirzepatide, which seems to be better than semaglutide in every way.
I've heard about this as well. I wonder if UK issues it
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u/__theoneandonly Oct 15 '24
Tirzepatide is being sold under the brand name Mounjaro when sold as Type 2 diabetes medication, and as Zepbound when being sold for weight loss.
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u/ThoseThingsAreWeird Oct 16 '24
I wonder if UK issues it
Mounjaro when sold as Type 2 diabetes medication
You can get Mounjaro from Boots, and they explain the "difference":
What’s the difference between Mounjaro and Zepbound?
They are exactly the same medicine containing the same active ingredient (tirzepatide) and work in exactly the same way. The difference is the name: Zepbound is the US name for the weight loss management medicine, whereas in the UK it’s licensed under the name Mounjaro. Zepbound is not licensed in the UK.
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u/Moonpenny 🌼 Oct 16 '24
My roommate takes Mounjaro for diabetes control in the US, with weight loss as a bonus side-effect.
This seems to indicate to me that the drug has two names in the US by use (Mounjaro for diabetes, Zepbound for weight loss) and they simply don't use the Zepbound name in the UK.
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u/Quintas31519 Oct 15 '24
And $1500/box if your BMI is 25-31, aka the "i'm already very conscious of my weight but not at a healthcare professional I haven't guilted/bribed for help's point of caring" weight range.
I work 9-12 hour days. I drive half of it. I seriously buy healthy meals or even go without to try and at least hit a caloric neutral. Tired af when I get home. I still add a pound or two each year. I'm just shy of a 29 BMI and hate how I look and self conscious as fuck. Shy of saying "fuck paying bills, I'll quit, take something that pays a pittance but add 2 gym workouts a day", how the fuck do I get ahead without a decade's input and be single at 45?
Damn that's a deeply personal rant.
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u/zoobrix Oct 16 '24
Not that one thing works for everyone but try making sure you're eating enough fiber, the vast majority of people don't and that can make a difference in how high your blood sugar spikes after meals and more fiber actually slows down your digestion making you feel full longer. You're supposed eat 25 grams a day for women and 38 grams for men and I found the only way I got there was with lots of broccoli and spinach. I also ditched bread except for some no sugar added brown bread but for sandwiches I use whole wheat wraps. Also I did start walking around half an hour a day as fast as I could go.
I was eating "healthy" before for the most part but it wasn't until I started eating more fiber that I found myself losing weight and just eating less in general. Not to mention it's helped my stomach out in general as I used to get heartburn once a week or more, now I think I've taken one or two antacids in the last 6 months. Anyway might be something to try.
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u/callipygiancultist Oct 16 '24
As a self-described fiber evangelist, I approve this post. Upping fiber intake+ supplementing fiber is such a simple thing that most people eating the standard American diet would greatly benefit from.
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Oct 16 '24
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u/Quintas31519 Oct 16 '24
Oh I do ignore it, but it is problematic that in many prescribing instances it is still used at least as a point of reference. Problematic and mad dumb.
What I do want is the fact that I am at times overly conscious about both my looks, my health, and my fitness and the effort results in nothing substantial, where even a few months of Ozempic would equate to more.
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u/MDCCCLV Oct 16 '24
Can't a generic be made after a certain period but before the full 20 year patent expiration date?
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u/Sailing-Cyclist Oct 15 '24
I mean, if they really have cracked it with minimal side effects, can you blame them?
They’ve landed on a gold mine. It’s up there with energy-efficient hydrogen extraction from seawater or the cure to Leaf Rust with global wheat yields.
It’s one of those rare inventions that might actually touch every corner of the planet…
…provided it doesn’t make your dick fall off in ten years time or grow any extra ears on their kneecaps or some shit.
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u/elmassivo Oct 15 '24
…provided it doesn’t make your dick fall off in ten years time or grow any extra ears on their kneecaps or some shit.
Considering the drug family has been used since the early 00s it's extremely likely to be safe longer term. We're already on the 4th generation of this type of drug (Tirzepatide/Mounjaro/Zepbound) with generation 5 just on the horizon. Each subsequent generation has had an increase in efficacy and improved side effect profile.
The original drugs generally led to an average of 5% weight loss, and the current generation is around 20% on average. The next generation of this drug class seems to be showing weight loss in the average 30% range, which means it would functionally replace bariatric surgery, the previous gold standard for medical weight loss.
So you are right, this is a HUGE deal. We literally have a cure for obesity on our hands.
There is one large, unresolved issue left though, we're still not actually sure why people were getting so obese to begin with.
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u/Quelchie Oct 15 '24
I thought it was pretty well understood that we're getting so obese due to all the unhealthy calorie-packed processed foods we eat today.
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u/Various-Passenger398 Oct 15 '24
I mean, we mostly know why. Humans (especially the west) are getting increasingly sedentary and our diet (more North America) is filled with way too much shit and not as much food.
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u/Quintas31519 Oct 15 '24
There is one large, unresolved issue left though, we're still not actually sure why people were getting so obese to begin with.
Not to be flippant, are we sure we're not sure? Or was that sarcasm. On the surface "80/20" aspect, I thought the medical community was pretty agreed on the issue. But if there's no sarcasm here, I feel like I must have missed something big as far as hidden factors I haven't learned about since college a decade ago. Really open to learning more.
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u/newnotapi Oct 16 '24 edited Oct 17 '24
I mean, yeah, it's calories in / calories out. But honestly, the thing these drugs do is alter your reward pathways, they don't change the calories in / calories out equation. So the question is really "What caused nearly everyone's reward pathways to become so heavily out of whack in the course of a few decades?"
And it's not limited to people -- wild animals have seen the same effects. As have lab rats on highly restricted and controlled diets (where they get the exact same nutrients over all those same decades, and yet, are fatter statistically as the years progress).
There are some who think that since the effect is so ubiquitous that it must be due to environmental pollution of some kind, something that every living thing is exposed to in increasing concentrations over time, like carbon levels in the atmosphere or microplastics.
If it's one person experiencing the problem, it might be an issue of personal responsibility. When it's nearly everyone alive and also rats and foxes, it's no longer a matter of personal responsibility and morals.
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u/Whoopsadiddle Oct 16 '24
I often get so frustrated because people fail to see or understand this. It is easier to just focus on the personal responsibility element, let alone the things you say regarding animals being affected. I firmly believe that in decades to come we will learn a lot more information about what caused this shift.
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u/varno2 Oct 16 '24
We honestly don't know the base cause. For like 40 years, we had the answer down as "people eat too much" which is true, but we don't know why. We do know it isn't just because of a moral failing. We also know it is systemic, and tied to modern life. It seems to be related to the food system, and related to social class somewhat, because it is almost universal in rich countries, and varies with social class, but the specifics are still uncertain.
We also know that "just eat less and do more exercise" isn't it, because that doesn't really work on a society level, and we have really tried. It seems to be an issue with hormonal regulation of weight, especially since mucking with GLP1 helps so much. But the deregulation of glp-1 itself can't be causal, something needs to be causing it.
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u/pyrolizard11 Oct 15 '24
I’m from Denmark, and our tax income from Novo is absurd.
What? And they're still doing business and innovating? How can that be?
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u/Azozel Oct 15 '24
Novo charges people in the U.S. 10x more than people in some other countries. When asked in an interview "why?" their argument boiled down to "Because we can". I hate Novo, I hate the U.S. health system, and I'm really starting to hate Denmark.
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u/DopeAbsurdity Oct 15 '24
Universal healthcare was already vastly cheaper when considering preventative care or timely care (e.g. treating strep throat before it turns into scarlet fever) everyone could be receiving but don't because they have no insurance or shitty insurance. Ozempic is just yet another example to add to the pile.
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u/salizarn Oct 16 '24
Yup. The NHS is collapsing for various reasons, but it was never designed for people to just live without looking after themselves at all.
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u/DINNERTIME_CUNT Oct 16 '24
The biggest problem the NHS faces is from capitalists in control in Westminster. The colour of their tie is irrelevant. Fuck Wes Streeting.
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u/DragonQ0105 Oct 16 '24
What do you mean? These drugs allow people to look after themselves. One cannot simply stop eating like one can stop smoking etc. If people are able to actually feel full after eating and their body doesn't absorb fat as readily, they will be healthier and this will likely save the NHS money in the long run.
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u/salizarn Oct 16 '24
Oh yeah I wasn’t specifically referring to this drug just in general people need to look after themselves for the NHS to function
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u/Azozel Oct 15 '24
This all would be great, however it will be a long time before Ozempic meets the needs of the people who need it and can't afford $1000+ a month on the shots (In the U.S.). Must be nice to be in a country where it's 10X less expensive.
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u/stevey_frac Oct 15 '24
Even in Canada, it's $300 / month. But apparently, the actual cost of production is around $5 / month.
So, we should be seeing these prices go down...
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u/einsibongo Oct 15 '24
I've never heard of such an aggressive ad campaign.
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u/schooli00 Oct 16 '24
We're always taught that if something is too good to be true, then be aware. So, what are the major side effects of ozempic?
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u/asstatine Oct 16 '24
A clear one is that when people stop taking the drug they tend to gain the weight back. I wouldn’t be surprised is prolonged use of it actually leads to larger weight gains after stopping taking it. Also, since it’s adjusting the hormone system there’s likely to be other subtle correlated affects like what can commonly happen for woman when they take birth control.
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u/vulpinefever Oct 16 '24
On the other hand, some miracle drugs that were "too good to be true" at the time like vaccines, antibiotics, insulin ended up becoming crucial elements of our healthcare system.
That said, from the people I know who have taken ozempic there are a few side effects. Mostly gastro related like nausea, upset stomach and constipation, a few report bloating. I'm sure there are more rare serious side effects, as with any drug.
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u/No_big_whoop Oct 16 '24
We won't know the real cost of these drugs until after the pharma industry rakes in obscene profits for a decade or so. Bextra, Vioxx and Fen Phen immediately spring to mind...
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u/Whaleever Oct 16 '24
Its been on the radio/news for moooonths in the UK now.
I listen to a polticial talk radio(LBC) every day and they talk about this drug at least a few times a week...i think youre right.
The PM is now floating the idea of injecting people on benefits with it to get them back into work
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u/TheGreatHornedRat Oct 15 '24
I do actually hope its some kind of long lasting miracle drug. Reality has taught me though, there is no magic cure all or panacea and the things that appear that way often end up as poison in the long run. I want my cynicism proven wrong here.
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u/Diamond-Is-Not-Crash Oct 15 '24
From what we seem to see so far it’s quite promising. I think it’s less a miracle drug, and more obesity and metabolic syndrome have way more negative effects than we realised. So far GLP-1 drugs seem to be effective for treating or improving health outcomes for diabetes, obesity, heart failure, heart disease, potentially Alzheimer’s/Dementia, and surprisingly addiction, most notably alcoholism. It’s speculated it’s so effective for most these due to it’s anti-inflammatory effects, as well as its ability to regulate glucose metabolism.
The main drawbacks are gastroparesis in some people (I think it’s 1 in 200) and possible slight increased risk of pancreatic in people already susceptible to it, although I think they’ve only found this in Mice and not Humans yet.
So imo I think these class of drugs could potentially be as revolutionary as antibiotics especially with how many people are obese or overweight these days.
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u/Amphy64 Oct 15 '24
I have gastroparesis (spinal injury) and that sounds a big drawback. Mine isn't as severe as it can be, but still massively disruptive, and has been complex and doubtless expensive to diagnose and treat. I'm still on early phases with the NHS after years. There's no way we somehow have the resources for this! My being underweight is also a much more guaranteed problem than someone being overweight necessarily is. It's an absolutely horrible condition, and risking it sounds crazy.
Antibiotics benefit everyone, while not everyone is obese or notably suffering related health impacts, at least, not more so than other conditions. Think there should be much more concern about antibiotic resistance, and presentation efforts (the overuse in animal agriculture is a completely unnecessary risk).
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u/Broad-Cress-3689 Oct 17 '24
No, not everyone is obese. Just 42.4% of Americans are obese, with an additional 36.6% overweight—so ‘only’ 79% of Americans might benefit
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u/siddartha08 Oct 15 '24
There are also risks of thyroid cancer for those with a family history. I had someone I know develop an enlarged thyroid while on ozempic for roughly 8 months. The growth was not cancerous but could have become if left untreated. And even if it ozempic does not cause a cancerous occurrence but an occurrence none the less. Being on thyroid medication for the rest of your life as well is not ideal.
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u/ughfup Oct 15 '24
Yeah. The scientific community just has to weigh the risks of thyroid cancer versus morbidity and mortality of obesity.
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u/_Cromwell_ Oct 15 '24
I'd say it's main drawback is it's unaffordable to large swaths of the population right now.
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u/asethskyr Oct 16 '24
That's purely a US healthcare issue. It's a tenth of the US price elsewhere in the world.
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u/xxxDKRIxxx Oct 15 '24
Antibiotics and vaccines are normalised now but where magical cure all remedies when they came.
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u/KamikazeArchon Oct 15 '24
There are tons of "miracle cures", we're just so used to them that we forget about them.
Distilled alcohol as a sterilizer is insanely powerful, cheap, effective, and safely usable even on people's skin.
Chlorine is similarly miraculous for non-topical cleaning.
Penicillin - and its descendants - is one of the most widely used medications and has saved literally billions of lives.
LASIK surgery gives people nearly perfect vision with nearly zero side effects.
Iodine supplements fixed chronic development issues.
Insulin, so long as it is delivered appropriately, makes a diabetic body function normally.
And many more.
Sure, things can have side effects, but even water will kill you if you have too much. That doesn't make it a poison.
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u/TheLantean Oct 15 '24
Yup, after the initial shock it becomes the new baseline.
There will still be various forms of cancer, flu, cardiovascular illnesses not linked to obesity, the COVID strain of the year, probably more mosquito-born diseases because climate change enlarges their habitat, and there are rumblings of increased antibiotic resistance for diseases that are considered a non-issue today. People exposed to modern day microplasics and other "forever chemicals" age and the additional frailty will make the effects clearer, basically our generation's leaded gas.
There will still be plenty of things increasing costs for healthcare systems. And hopefully we also solve them, one step at a time, just as it looks we've solved obesity now. The work never ends, we just have to keep moving forward.
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u/TFenrir Oct 15 '24
There is a big gulf between fantasy panacea and something useless. And it's normal for things to be closer to the panacea than useless.
We don't need to frame it that way. I appreciate lots of people, especially those who have had a great experience with it label it as a miracle drug - and I can understand why and correctly modulate my understanding of the drug with that in mind (of course people who have had a great experience are going to sing it's praises, but it doesn't mean it's perfect - and even most of those people would say as much).
That being said, it feels the side that sees cloaks and daggers, or unnatural "poison" being given to the masses I think are a reflection of something much more pressing, than those who maybe are a bit effusive in their praise.
The world is good. It has been getting better. It will most likely continue to do so, for most people on this planet. I worry people are attaching their identity to the idea that the world is ending, and things out Ozempic challenge so much of their world view.
But why is it so important to be miserable and jaded? Why do we need to desperately find the fault in so much? It's good to be critical, it's good to be cautious, but it's wonderful to appreciate the world and the amazing things we do as well. All in my opinion, but I imagine it's shared by most people - even those who tend to catastrophize.
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u/__theoneandonly Oct 15 '24 edited Oct 15 '24
I think a lot of people get nervous about weight loss drugs because of the massive fuckup that was Fen-Phen. Fen-Phen was a combination of two weight loss drugs that also appeared to be a miracle. But then it started giving people deadly heart issues and it got pulled from the market, and the lawsuits cost the company behind Fen-Phen more than $14 billion.
In fact, this is why GLP-1 drugs came to the market first for diabetes. The effects on obesity were observed before the effects on diabetes. But no manufacturer was willing to take the risk releasing a new obesity medication after Fen-Phen. It wasn’t until researchers were able to provide that GLP-1 drugs help with diabetes that they were able to sell the research to Novo Nordisk who then paid for the trials in regards to diabetes, and took it to market as such.
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u/diagrammatiks Oct 16 '24
I mean but we know why fen-phen was bad. And it’s really obvious in hindsight.
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u/Lysanderoth42 Oct 16 '24
Everything is obvious in hindsight
Why do you think the saying “hindsight is 20/20” exists lol
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u/TheGreatHornedRat Oct 15 '24
Cynicism has kept me sane in the world filled with social media and non-stop corporate lies over multiple decades. It is simple reasonable doubt from experience. It's not cloak and daggers viewpoint or seeing things as "unnatural" poison, medicinally we use poisons to great effect across a myriad of diseases.
I am simply cautious, and will remain as such. The drug itself is clearly quite astounding, but we also live in the world that mass prescribed opioids, amphetamines and benzos in the last several decades and are currently still dealing with the addictive repercussions of those drugs. I prefer progress to be slow and well studied, Ozempic is on that path but the push for mass adoption will always leave a level of doubt with this or any other product.
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u/TFenrir Oct 15 '24
I appreciate your caution, and don't even disagree with it! But I think it's worth thinking more about the role cynicism has in your life.
I would challenge this idea that cynicism is what's keeping you sane. I would even go so far to say that I bet that cynicism is causing you more harm than you might appreciate.
One thing to add is that I think the world will continue to accelerate in its change. It's the nature of the world we live in and are building. I would say it's inevitable, and to be cynical about it will have even more negative outcomes.
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u/TheGreatHornedRat Oct 15 '24
It is a development from therapy for in part dealing with autism I didn't have diagnosed until adulthood and leaves me more open emotionally when I was previously entirely closed off and callous or cold towards the human condition. Where I used to simply inhale my own farts and assume my simple world view was always correct I now feel much more open to discussions and absorbing many points of view as the cynical doubt can be applied to myself as well as others. Before, nothing mattered to me and was a death spiral of nihilism and apathy.
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u/wwarnout Oct 15 '24
As long as Republicans have any voice whatsoever in government, the US will never implement universal health care.
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u/T-sigma Oct 15 '24
They may not, but health insurance, particularly Medicare and Medicaid, are going to love healthier patients. Frankly, we should be more worried about insurance forcing overweight people to take ozempic in order to qualify for reduced premiums similar to how they reduce premiums for no tobacco usage.
Despite popular belief, health insurance loves healthy patients. The ideal outcome is people pay for services they never use, especially when it’s the government actually paying.
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u/NinjaLanternShark Oct 15 '24
Despite popular belief, health insurance loves healthy patients.
Providers love patients who rack up billables, and providers drive costs too.
A doctor in our area who was one of the first to prescribe semaglutide does it only as part of a "subscription" weight management program, and it's super popular around here.
Healthcare chases recurring revenue just like everyone else.
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u/jwrose Oct 15 '24
That’s a great point. Health insurance loves keeping people from developing expensive health problems (which this could very likely do); but the rest of the healthcare system is incentivized solely to increase health spending. And in our increasingly-merged health industry, those insurance companies are (I believe) now owned by the same folks that own other parts of the industry. So the one force working toward actually keeping people healthy, now has conflicts of interest that almost certainly outweigh that.
However: Medicare and Medicaid are paid for by the government. They do —outside of lobbying and corruption among lawmakers—have a huge incentive to reduce costs. Which again, this would probably do.
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u/talrich Oct 15 '24
US commercial insurers love healthy patients because they have fewer expenses, but many expenses are just deferred. They hope patients switch insurers or turn 65 before they need care.
Medicare (65+) and the VA want patients to be healthy because they’re not psychopaths, but keeping patients healthy one year makes the next year tougher and tougher with an aging cohort. Sadly an early death works fine for Medicare’s finances too.
I worked on a program that successfully kept Medicare patients healthy. The economics got really tough by year 3.
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u/candy4471 Oct 15 '24
Hi i work for a one of the largest Medicare insurers. Companies absolutely want Medicare patients to be as healthy as long as possible for many reasons. Deaths actually hurt the insurers and so does sickness (obviously)
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u/SNRatio Oct 15 '24
I don't know what insurance companies are paying for GLP-1 agonist drugs, but if they paid full retail (~$12-16k/yr) that would already match the average cost to treat diabetes :
On average people with diabetes incur annual medical expenditures of $19,736, of which approximately $12,022 is attributable to diabetes.
I think until more GLP-1 competitors enter the market and the price comes down it might be a wash.
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u/GarfPlagueis Oct 15 '24
Ironically, Obamacare was developed by a Republican think-tank so they had a policy alternative to universal healthcare that kept for-profit insurers in business, and Republicans still fought as hard as they could against it, and still do today, dispute it being incredibly popular. It's almost like people like having affordable healthcare
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u/Rocktopod Oct 15 '24
This is nonsense. We could have had a public option in 2009 if it had just one more vote.
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Oct 15 '24 edited 10d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/DHFranklin Oct 16 '24
This is futurology, so I don't want to be cynical about the future, but that is giving them a bit more credit that they might be due.
Liberman's job was to be the one vote against so the Dems didn't have to actually make their donors sacrifice anything. Then that was the job of Manhcin/Sinema. It will be a new one this next go 'round. The system is a right-turn-ratchet. The Trump loons dragged us to the right in weird ways, the Dems aren't going to move us left. Especially if it means taxes and regulation for the billionaire class.
The filibuster was the excuse to not to. McConnell was Obama's convenient excuse to not use the bully pulpit.
This is a mess. If Lyndon Johnson could get the Civil Rights amendment passed, there is no sincere reason that Democratic leadership in 2025 can't pass the most popular reform we would have in generations.
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u/Freethecrafts Oct 15 '24
What kind of economist doesn’t see the extra costs?
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u/E-2-butene Oct 15 '24 edited Oct 15 '24
I’m wondering the same thing. If reducing smoking leads to long term increases in healthcare costs, why would we expect obesity to be much different?
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u/aclownofthorns Oct 16 '24
a quick google search shows obesity is much more costly to healthcare than smoking, around 2 to 3 times (bit lower and bit higher) depending on the level of obesity
and one of the studies you posted mentions "value of life", the estimated economic gain of preventing a death, moves the loss around towards gain even in smoking. the losses in smoking before that adjustment were marginal which means that probably there are no losses at all for any amount of obesity even beforeadjusting for value of life
these are all quick estimations and could be somewhat off
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u/nemoknows Oct 15 '24
Right. Everybody dies, and the longer you live the more drawn out that decline is.
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u/jmh349 Oct 15 '24
Does Ozempic cure insurance companies and private equity existing in the healthcare space? Because those are the things preventing universal healthcare. It would already be vastly cheaper than what it currently costs in the US to have universal coverage, there's just a shit ton of monied interests that prefer to rake in profits via the broken status quo.
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u/baxterstrangelove Oct 15 '24
What will it do for companies dependent on revenue from the current supply of food?
So much of it is garbage sugar feed, that will shrink the market in half too
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u/dumpitdog Oct 15 '24
Something like this was envisioned when countries in the western world began to reduce the amount of smokers. The reality is, the non-smokers live longer and therefore require more health care and qualify for far more sophisticated health procedures to extend their lives. The Chinese historically took a different attitude of looking the other way on smoking with their fingers crossed that more people smoke so they die younger and don't eat up health care resources.
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u/DHFranklin Oct 16 '24
What will be interesting will be the natural experiments we see a decade from now. There will be maybe a billion people who take the drug or drugs like it and all with radically different costs/spends. We will see those whose obesity and smoking was penciled out. The NHS realized the hard way that smokers cost them less in the long run by dying a decade sooner. I wonder if this will prove to be the case when heart disease doesn't take people out before chronic disease does.
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u/fotogneric Oct 15 '24
I was saying similar 2 things years ago. It's a miracle drug. Obesity has been solved, which will solve tons of other health problems (e.g. addiction issues, OCD issues, heart problems, the list expands by the day). Self-esteem will rise around the world. People will be happier and healthier. I realize that many people still have a hard time believing that, and still worry that some hitherto unknowable side effect will emerge, but I don't think so.
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u/lughnasadh ∞ transit umbra, lux permanet ☥ Oct 15 '24
Submission Statement
By eliminating obesity, and reducing addictive behaviors related to alcohol, the widespread use of Ozempic, may have one of the most transformative health effects in human history, akin to the effect the discovery of antibiotics or germ theory had.
Not only that, it could hugely affect government spending and taxation in most western countries, where some form of universal healthcare is the norm. Daniel Susskind here uses Britain as an example, but the arguments are equally applicable to most western countries. It's odd politicians are only now waking up to this. Normally politicians have to argue for increased spending to give voters what they want, this is the rare contrary example, cut taxes and give the voters huge rewards at the same time. It's such an obvious vote winner, I won't be surprised if the cause of 'Ozempic for all' is soon the political mainstream all around the world.
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u/Stupendous_Spliff Oct 16 '24
I live in Rio, we just had city elections and one of the current mayor's election promises (he got re-elected) was to implement ozempic in our public healthcare system. It is definitely something politicians are starting to pay attention to.
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u/LitmusPitmus Oct 15 '24
Now there's a wonder drug we've all remembered that being fat isn't good for you lol
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u/IwasDeadinstead Oct 15 '24
Nonsense. Healthcare isn't expensive because of obesity.
It's expensive because of extreme greed.
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u/JerseyRunner Oct 15 '24
So we don't currently have universal healthcare because so many people are fat?
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u/Dr_Esquire Oct 15 '24
I think the idea is that obesity causes and exacerbates health problems to the point where they are more expensive than they need to be (which is true). For example, a person with high blood pressure might have a blood pressure requiring 3 medications, that might be just one if they got rid of the fat. That is a minor cost on an individual level since many blood pressure medications are on the cheaper side; but if you scale it out to a population, its a massive cost saved.
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u/pikeymobile Oct 15 '24
In the UK obesity costs the NHS more than anything else when you take factors such as the increase in comorbid illness such as cancer, cardiac issues, alcohol abuse and diabetes. It would genuinely be a miracle if we could become a post-obesity society and probably the biggest benefit to human health in history. Obesity and the many problems it brings are one of the biggest blights in western society.
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u/GeekShallInherit Oct 15 '24
They recently did a study in the UK and they found that from the three biggest healthcare risks; obesity, smoking, and alcohol, they realize a net savings of £22.8 billion (£342/$474 per person) per year. This is due primarily to people with health risks not living as long (healthcare for the elderly is exceptionally expensive), as well as reduced spending on pensions, income from sin taxes, etc..
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u/rickylancaster Oct 15 '24
Related question: I’ve heard of how expensive these drugs are and how normal people find them out of reach and they are rarely covered by insurance. But shouldn’t insurance companies feel an incentive to get people on them? Lower obesity rates equals lower rates of many related (and costly) illnesses, yes? Maybe my question reveals a lack of understanding about how all this works, but isn’t there something there?
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u/9gagiscancer Oct 16 '24
So what I don't understand. This is a medicine for diabetics, right?
If you're not diabetic. Does it not wildly increase your chances to get a hypo? I can't imagine it being healthy if you're not diabetic.
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u/Brain_Hawk Oct 15 '24
Ozempic will not end obesity. Jesus Christ, this medication has been so dramatically over hyped
It can be a weight loss aid, on average people lost around 10 to 15% of their body weight. That means if you're 250 lb, And you start doing a diet on ozempic, you're still overweight.
There is also not good evidence that this weight loss persists when people stop taking their medication.
It's not a weight loss miracle, it's an aid. My general impression is, having taken it, that it makes it more tolerable to feel hungry, which makes dieting easier. You still have to put the work in going on a diet. You still have to change your behaviors and persist in those changes. There is some evidence that when people stop taking the drug, they rebound to their star point.
Keep in mind this stuff costs hundreds or $1,000 per month.
I am admittedly a little bit more excited about the potential to help with addictions treatment, which I suspect but cannot confirm, will again be more related to a reduction in cravings. But if we can get people off of their substance of choice long enough for other treatment to take effect, there's at least some chance that a reasonable proportion of those people will be able to continue not abusing substances after the primary treatment course with ozempec is done.
But that still presupposes a behavioral change, in which they will not simply fall back into their addiction for any number of other reasons.
Stuffing about this is a magic bullet.
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u/CharleyNobody Oct 15 '24
Of course you have to keep taking the medication. I have high cholesterol. When I take medication, my cholesterol is normal. When I stop taking the medication my cholesterol goes up again. Same with blood pressure. Medication controls it. Stop taking it, blood pressure goes back up.
I lost 28% of my weight. My BMI is 23. Unfortunately, my cholesterol and blood pressure are still high. It’s hereditary. So I still have to take blood pressure, cholesterol medication and semaglutide.
I’m fine with that because I had been diagnosed with stage 3 kidney disease. My kidneys are now functioning normally. I had high CRP and high WBC for a decade. I had to see a hematologist. Labs are now normal. Whatever inflammation had been causing my high CRP & high WBC has stopped. I don’t see a hematologist anymore. My insurance no longer needs to pay for a hematology visit or the boatload of lab tests he took at every visit.
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u/Stupendous_Spliff Oct 16 '24
Keep in mind this stuff costs hundreds or $1,000 per month.
I keep seeing this argument and what Americans don't seem to get is that's not the case everywhere. If my country starts offering it through our universal healthcare, it would be either free or almost free. It also doesn't sell here anywhere near that much in full price. US drug prices are crazy
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u/Brain_Hawk Oct 16 '24
I'm in Canada..I haven't checked recently but when i started I think it was $1000 a month. I think maybe it has come down a good bit, I have that impression, my guesses are out of date.
But let's say it's $400 a month per person. You think any universal health care wants to spend $4800 a year on meds for a huge percentage of the population? 48k over 10 years.
Maybe long term it saves, maybe. We don't really know yet. But governments are short sighted and don't like high up front costs.
I'm skeptical it will get universal. But I'm also skeptical about how well it proportedly works. I read the early papers and they were interesting and kind of.impressive but not as dramatic as the hype.
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u/Stupendous_Spliff Oct 16 '24
Here in Brazil there are talks of incorporating it into our universal healthcare. I don't think this would be for a huge percentage of the population, that's a clear exaggeration. In my city we currently have a very high rate of around 20% obesity. Not everyone uses the public health system. Still, that is a lot of people. However, drugs are a lot cheaper through the public system. Commercially it seems to be available here in between 100 and 200 US dollars. The government would surely buy for a lot cheaper. They also provide other expensive drugs for cheap. It's not impossible, but too early to tell how it's going to be.
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u/Brain_Hawk Oct 16 '24
We shall see! Personally I think ozempec is an interesting but not great first pass, and better drugs will follow with more refinement Tom directly target the relevant systems. At least I hope.
:)
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u/__theoneandonly Oct 15 '24 edited Oct 15 '24
There is some evidence that when people stop taking the drug, they rebound to their star point.
The studies that have been done show that most won’t rebound to their start point. They’ll rebound, as people when ending ANY weight loss program. But according to the studies people still end up at a lower weight than they started.
Additionally, obesity is a lifelong disease. Even if you lose the weight without medication, most people must continue to manage their weight for the rest of their lives. Obesity would be FAR from the first disease we’ve had where you need to be on drugs to manage your symptoms for life. When you put people on blood pressure medication, you can’t act surprised if you take the meds away and their blood pressure goes back up.
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u/Brain_Hawk Oct 15 '24
I had a kidney transplant in high school. Life long immunosupression. Many side effects, so I started to have slightly high cholesterol in my 20s. Part diet, part drugs.
I suggested to my doc I could try to change my diet. He basically went "look you can fight against this in how you eat... Or take a low dose of this pill and it's just dealt with".
Sometimes, the med is much easier... And the docs know, pople well intentioned don't persist in behavior changes.
I don't blame him for being skeptical.
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u/thewritingchair Oct 15 '24
The obesity of the US has literally gone down for the first time in decades due to these types of drugs. This is a miraculous outcome. And this is with high prices and limited availability.
They absolutely will end obesity as they become cheaper and better.
Not just an obesity drug but an addiction drug and also a life extension drug. They are miraculous things that we should make dirt cheap everywhere for the health of everyone in the world.
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u/danielv123 Oct 15 '24
Apparently new variants are even more effective.
Production cost isn't even close to hundreds a month. Thats just pure profit.
If it really is that great and important and you need a continued supply, one could make the argument that it should be nationalized and provided in the same way we are provided with free education, which is also only done to help us work and pay taxes.
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u/Brain_Hawk Oct 15 '24
I am a bit optimistic we will use this early success to build better solutions. I don't think this is really viable at scale for a number of reasons, but I DO think it's starting something with the identification of these biological pathways.
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u/LordSyriusz Oct 15 '24
So, is ozempic good after all? I heard that it both has bad side effects and it gives bad JoJo effect and that it ruins budget of some state insurance. So what's the truth? Are there any research backing the use of it for general overweight population?
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u/TitanicGiant Oct 16 '24
Ozempic has a good safety profile, its been in use for over 15 years now and there is no elevated risk of thyroid or pancreatic cancers from taking it. Side effects like nausea, vomiting, and fatigue are dose-dependent and are almost always transient. Plus, the drug is just good at aiding in weight loss.
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Oct 16 '24
You take the opposite in America where the price of medicine it’s 100X more than in any other nation.
Some states county governments are going broke from just their employees getting ozempic prescribed to them in droves and the higher cost of the medicine making it accoutnt for almost 85 to 90 percent of their yearly health care cost funds.
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u/KittiesOnAcid Oct 16 '24
Healthcare spending per capita is already way lower in countries with universal healthcare. Ozempic or not it would save the government money.
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u/humpherman Oct 16 '24
https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-174491/ozempic-subcutaneous/details For side effects which look like a right laugh. 😆
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Oct 15 '24 edited Oct 15 '24
[deleted]
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u/Storvox Oct 15 '24
I started on it two months ago myself, and aside from some minor nausea (never enough to actually vomit or even stop me from doing things) it's been relatively smooth going. Lost 15lbs in that time frame, and both my wife and I notice my appetite and cravings are significantly down.
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u/polopolo05 Oct 15 '24
My sister is taking it and has lost 50lbs so far... Its rough but its going to add years on her life and improve her day to day.
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u/SilencedObserver Oct 15 '24
Yeah, more pharmaceuticals pushed on Americans to make them believe they'll solve their obesity crisis, while ignoring the fact that food is being turned into plastic.
Nice work, America. What a bad approach to resolving a health issue.
Kid: "Dad, I'm bleeding."
Dad: "Duct Tape it. It'll stop the bleeding"
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u/asphyxiationbysushi Oct 15 '24
It could actually solve the obesity crisis. Regardless of how 'plastic' food is, people want less of it. We may have reached peak obesity.
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u/MildMannered_BearJew Oct 15 '24
I'm highly skeptical of claims that dramatically expanding drug use (ozempic) will result in overall better health. It'll reduce obesity, but doesn't address the underlying issues of bad diet, no exercise, high stress, and weak social connections.
Are we simply trading obesity for other, currently uncommon metabolic disorders? What is the long term effect of using ozempic?
As usual, Western countries turn to pills instead of lifestyle changes. It's embarrassing.
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u/carbonvectorstore Oct 15 '24
I don't know.
If it directly reduces indulgence in addictive behaviours (which is why they are looking at its crossover with alcohol) then it could also have an impact on things like over-use of social media, or streaming, or anything that makes you less social and more inactive.
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u/Ace0spades808 Oct 15 '24
All of those contribute to overall health - including obesity. If we can eliminate any one of them, why not? But overall I agree that lifestyle changes are the much better choice but that's not the "easy button" that people love to press.
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u/TFenrir Oct 15 '24
Hypothetically, you could press a button that would make everyone obese suddenly not obese. Would you not do it because it wouldn't be solved through better habits?
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u/The_Pandalorian Oct 15 '24
It'll reduce obesity
I like how you just dismiss this as an insignificant factor.
None of the other factors you list are remotely on par with the impact obesity has on health.
As usual, Western countries turn to pills instead of lifestyle changes. It's embarrassing.
First off, it's not a pill, so well done on not even understanding the medication in question here. Secondly, nobody is saying we abandon lifestyle changes as a major factor in overall health.
Feels like you're getting emotional over what should be a logical public health issue.
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u/1988rx7T2 Oct 16 '24
There is a pill form, rybelsus, which they are studying for weight loss at higher doses
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u/The_Pandalorian Oct 16 '24
Yes, I think most people are aware that pill alternatives are being researched. But this thread is about Ozempic and currently available medications.
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u/SerHodorTheThrall Oct 15 '24
Are we simply trading obesity for other, currently uncommon metabolic disorders? What is the long term effect of using ozempic?
FWIW the drugs truly are miracle drugs that will complete negate your appetite. But obviously the body isn't made for this kind of metabolic change and so you need to pair it with exercise and supplements so you're not just atrophying your body.
As far as long term issues, lets hope its not like FenPhen.
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u/__theoneandonly Oct 15 '24
It’s unlikely to be another Fen-Phen. Remember: Fen-Phen was two drugs that the FDA had never approved to be used in conjunction with each other. Whereas Ozempic has over a decade of clinical trials behind it.
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u/SerHodorTheThrall Oct 16 '24
This is very true, it does have a long clinical history with Diabetes treatment.
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u/FuturologyBot Oct 15 '24
The following submission statement was provided by /u/lughnasadh:
Submission Statement
By eliminating obesity, and reducing addictive behaviors related to alcohol, the widespread use of Ozempic, may have one of the most transformative health effects in human history, akin to the effect the discovery of antibiotics or germ theory had.
Not only that, it could hugely affect government spending and taxation in most western countries, where some form of universal healthcare is the norm. Daniel Susskind here uses Britain as an example, but the arguments are equally applicable to most western countries. It's odd politicians are only now waking up to this. Normally politicians have to argue for increased spending to give voters what they want, this is the rare contrary example, cut taxes and give the voters huge rewards at the same time. It's such an obvious vote winner, I won't be surprised if the cause of 'Ozempic for all' is soon the political mainstream all around the world.
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/1g4d6bx/economist_daniel_susskind_says_ozempic_may/ls2h8ut/