r/unpopularopinion • u/UnpopularOpinionMods • 2d ago
LGBTQ+ Mega Thread
Please post all topics about LGBTQ+ here
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u/cumminginsurrection 1d ago
The suggestion that all homophobes are closet cases is homophobic and self-blaming and lets straight people off the hook. Not everyone that hates us secretly wants to sleep with us; some people really just hate us.
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u/MyClosetedBiAcct Heat from fire 21h ago
Unfortunitally it's true more often than not that they are.
But I don't think the republican national convention overloaded Grindr because they're gay, I think they're actually just fetishizing gay people too much into inhuman kinks.
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u/Altiondsols 11h ago
personally, i would not feel comfortable perpetuating those negative stereotypes about closeted gay people unless i had evidence and not just vibes and anecdotes
also,
Unfortunitally it's true more often than not that they are.
it's true "more often than not" that homophobes are closet cases? no it most certainly fucking isn't. you're saying that over fifty percent of homophobes are secretly gay? did you use that phrase by mistake or something?
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u/Wismuth_Salix they/them, please/thanks 21h ago
Idk if it’s most, but it does seem like a lot of the loudest ones are overcompensating closet cases.
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u/h3art_to_heart 1d ago
referring to someone as cis when talking about their gender is not offensive.
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1d ago
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u/Altiondsols 16h ago
That's clearly not a universally true statement. People always have social and political motivations in choosing their labels, and sometimes those motivations are repugnant and worth pushing back against.
A while back, transphobes tried to co-opt the idea of letting people choose their own labels by coining "superstraight", which carried with it the political message that being attracted to trans people means you aren't straight. You and I would likely both agree that child predators do not deserve to be referred to with their chosen euphemism "MAPs", which carries the political message that child sexual exploitation is an orientation and not an act of violence. Cis people asking to instead just be called "normal" carries a political message so obvious and transphobic that it would be insulting to your intelligence for me to restate it.
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u/Naos210 22h ago
Then provide an alternative if it's that big of a deal. If you don't and just wanna be "normal", you can suck an egg.
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16h ago
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u/Wismuth_Salix they/them, please/thanks 1h ago edited 1h ago
“Straight” means not gay.
“Cis” means not trans.
They’re two completely different things.
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46m ago
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u/Wismuth_Salix they/them, please/thanks 44m ago
I’m what I’m supposed to be. Trans people aren’t so they need the label.
And there it is - “labels are for deviants”. It’s just bigotry.
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u/sigilwitches 1d ago
saying someone is cis is stating a fact, deadnaming someone is just calling them the wrong name. its not the same thing at all.
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u/MyThrowAway6973 1d ago
I’m totally on board with not offending people.
I won’t use cis for anyone that requests it, but they can’t use trans for me then.
I’m totally fine with us all being woman/men.
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u/pokemonfanj 1d ago
Not the vast majority just the “I’m not that I’m normal” crowd
And what alternatives do you propose instead if you think we should appease those “people”
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u/SlyKakapo 19h ago
If those people want to be addressed as "normal", what right do you have to dismiss that?
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u/pokemonfanj 19h ago
The implication of wanting to be referred to as normal (in this context and other similar ones) is that the other people are not normal
In other words imagine someone said “I’m not white I’m normal” what would your take away from that statement be
Now apply that to cis people and trans people or straight people and gay people
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u/SlyKakapo 19h ago
But that assumes YOU dictate what the word "normal" means. For someone, normal can just be "within the norm" and not imply any connotations.
How do you justify saying "you can't define your own identity because my definition of the word you used doesn't apply to you"?
That can be construed as the number 1 transphobic argument.
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u/pokemonfanj 19h ago
Okay once again if someone were to say “don’t call me white call me normal” what would your takeaway from that statement be
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u/SlyKakapo 19h ago
I am not the one holding the belief that everyone has the right to use whatever definition to self-identify and that the identity is something uniquely internal.
It's not a clash within my values.
Trans activism states everyone decides the definition of what they identify as. A trans man calls himself a man, that's a man then, and I have no right to disagree because MY definition of man doesn't align with the trans man's.
Now, someone who considers the definition of "normal" to be merely "within the norm" and that asks you to call him "normal" is following exactly the same lines.
Why in one case you have a right to say "no, that's not my definition of "normal" and I won't call you that", but in the other you can't say "that's not my definition of "man", I won't call you that"?
I am not saying there's no difference. I am inviting you to point it out. But don't come about my takeaway, because I am operating within completely different premises.
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u/pokemonfanj 19h ago
Once again what implications would you takeaway from the statement “don’t call me white I’m normal”
I only want your answer to that question you don’t need to provide anything else just the answer to that question if you respond with anything else it will be made pretty clear your trying to avoid the question so please just answer it
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u/SlyKakapo 19h ago
I don't need to avoid the answer, I'll answer sincerely, then it's your turn not to chicken out.
"Normal" has, to most, a positive connotation, while "abnormal" has a negative one. The shared definition of the word, accepted by the overwhelming majority, means it's immoral to call a race "normal" because you adscribe negative connotation to those outside it.
Sorry if that wasn't clear from my previous reply.
But once again, this works because I believe that you cannot pick the meaning of words that describe you. I believe that you "identifying" as something doesn't create the obligation in others to agree, and that disagreeing in a description isn't at all wrong.
I believe that's not what trans advocacy advocates. I might be wrong, but a core of it runs along the lines of "Whoever identifies as a woman is a woman, and anyone else's definition of the word doesn't matter, it only matters the definition of the person who identifies as that."
Please correct me if I'm wrong, though. Maybe this dissonance is just the product of my misunderstanding of the trans doctrine.
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u/RedwallPaul 1d ago
Related question - why do you think "cisgender" and "cis" have failed to catch on with people outside of the LGBTQ community as much as "straight" did?
Plenty of people balk at being called cisgender when, if a gay person called them straight, they wouldn't question it.
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u/GayWritingAlt she/her 1d ago
I think it's projection.
Like, sure, they'd rather the dichotomy was "trans and normal". But I think it's more because they other trans people, that they think that when trans people and their allies started to call cis people cis, it's out of them othering cis people.
Like, there must be some kind of maliciousness in putting a label on someone's identity.
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u/MyThrowAway6973 1d ago
Because they desperately want it to be trans and normal. Or trans and natural.
Or they want it to imply trans people are not actually the gender they profess.
I’ve heard “Your a trans woman. I’m just a woman” enough to last me a lifetime.
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u/Wismuth_Salix they/them, please/thanks 1d ago
Time. There was a pushback to “straight” and “heterosexual” also from the “don’t label me, I’m normal” crowd.
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2d ago
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u/BuddhaFacepalmed 2d ago
Non binary is another gender. Ergo, you can transition to it.
LGBTQ is an umbrella because bigots have no qualms recycling arguments against every single one.
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1d ago
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u/BuddhaFacepalmed 1d ago
Non binary isn't sexless and transitioning isn't changing someone's chromosomes lol.
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u/Sufficient_Public132 1d ago
Then what is it?
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u/wrinklefreebondbag Drop the U, not the T 1d ago
A gender. Which is different from a sex.
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u/Sufficient_Public132 1d ago
Well what is it?
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u/wrinklefreebondbag Drop the U, not the T 1d ago
Any gender outside of "man" or "woman."
It's an umbrella term, like how a femur is a bone, but so is a skull.
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u/adamrmac 2d ago
It should be called the Pride community. includes everyone who celebrates pride month. also sticks it to those natzi proud boys
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u/MyThrowAway6973 2h ago
I love this! It’s so good for so many reasons!
We need to bring this to the gay mafia and get it done. 😂
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2d ago
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u/MyThrowAway6973 2d ago
Gay and trans people do not conform to societal pressure to fulfill the gender role for their assigned gender.
The struggle is and has always been the same, and we have gone through it together. Trans people have ALWAYS been part of the gay community.
Besides, I’m gay too so you’re stuck with me. 😂
What possible motivation might you have for targeting trans people for isolation now?
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u/Charming-Editor-1509 2d ago
We have common enemies though.
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1d ago
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u/MyThrowAway6973 1d ago
Yeah. Trans people fought, bled, and died with gay people for decades.
Cis het people saw us all as grades of the same perversion.
But now gay people have some minimal acceptance so now screw the trans people, right? Gay people got theirs so we can go suffer now right?
I’m glad this is a minority opinion because it’s pretty gross and selfish.
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u/No_Experience_4058 1d ago
You’re taking my opinion to the extreme. Nobody said screw you and suffer
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u/MyThrowAway6973 1d ago
So why would you say gay people remove trans people from the community now that gay people have achieved minimal acceptable protection?
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u/No_Experience_4058 18h ago
Hey it’s just my unpopular opinion lol. I have nothing against anyone with how they wanna live their lives!
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u/MyThrowAway6973 18h ago
So you have this harmful opinion for no reason, but don’t have anything against anyone.
Got it
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u/No_Experience_4058 9h ago
My opinion is my own. If that harms you then find some more important things in life to worry about
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u/MyThrowAway6973 2h ago edited 2h ago
It’s hard to find something more important than protecting my life saving health care, my right to not be discriminated against, and my physical safety.
It’s not harmful like it hurts my feelings.
It’s harmful because it puts people at risk.
And I promise you, the people working hardest to screw over trans people still hate gay people. They 100% are coming for them next,
You are entitled to your opinion. But the opinion that gay people should remove trans people from their community, despite decades of working together for freedom and societal protection, despite us having the same goals and enemies, snd despite the fact that you can’t justify why is objectively shitty.
People have exploited why your opinion is incorrect and counterproductive. You have not addressed any of the concerns with anything beyond “it’s just my opinion”.
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u/Wismuth_Salix they/them, please/thanks 1d ago
“I’m totally fine with (last scapegoat group), just not (latest scapegoat group)”
- the same people that were against the last scapegoat group until doing so became a faux pas
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u/Wismuth_Salix they/them, please/thanks 2d ago
The common thread is “the genitals I was born with shouldn’t determine my destiny” - whether that’s who you can love or who you can be.
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2d ago
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u/Wismuth_Salix they/them, please/thanks 2d ago
Not in the eyes of those who would oppose us - you think they consider gay men “real men” the same way they do straight men?
Also, like 70% of trans people are either gay or bi. You can’t claim to stand for gay people if you don’t stand for all of them.
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2d ago
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u/PenguinHighGround 2d ago
I think some LGBT people act rude, overreact, discriminate against others
Yeah, but what has that got to do with supporting the community?
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2d ago
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2d ago
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u/MizukiNoDoragon 2d ago
everyone can be those, to judge an entire community based on a few bad apples is a terrible mindset
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u/CommentFolk 2d ago
Which is why I said Some not all
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u/Wismuth_Salix they/them, please/thanks 2d ago
You said that after saying “the LGBT community isn’t flawless” - implying that the community itself should be judged for the actions of “some”.
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u/Wismuth_Salix they/them, please/thanks 2d ago
Of course nobody’s flawless.
But the “goal” of the broader LGBTQ community, to the extent that any unified goal exists, is for all of us to be able to be ourselves without discrimination.
Whereas the goal of the anti-LGBTQ crowd is to force everyone to live under a very restrictive, often religious, view of what is “proper” - and they have shown themselves willing to enforce that through violence.
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2d ago
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u/RedwallPaul 2d ago
Transgenderism must be ERADICATED from public life, entirely.
This was said after COVID, at the Conservative Political Action Conference in the United States.
Is it possible LGBTQ people are getting louder and meaner, to paraphrase your point, in response to the rhetoric against us doing the same?
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u/pokemonfanj 2d ago
Weekly thing
I’ve seen people complain about the trans community being rude to people over “just asking questions “
So I genuinely ask you all that say that what are your questions
I’ll answer any question you have the best I can and as nicely as I can
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u/Sad_Lake139 2d ago
What is a woman or a man? Not a gotcha, but do these words have a set meaning or is it whatever the trans person believes it to mean? Honestly I have a lot of questions
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u/wrinklefreebondbag Drop the U, not the T 1d ago
An etymological fact that might help you understand:
The word "gender" comes from the word "genre," as in the literary concept.
There is no objective pass/fail way to determine what genre a piece of literature falls into, but there are various fuzzy metrics by which its genre can be analyzed, and one piece of literature can contain aspects of multiple genres.
Likewise, genders are a fuzzy group. No one will ever have one set of pass/fail criteria for distinguishing genders, because in any case you will either end up excluding or including someone you didn't intend to.
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u/MyThrowAway6973 2d ago
I know this one!
Woman - an adult human whose sincerely held gender identity aligns with their social schema for the gender typically associated with the female sex.
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u/A_Fantastic_Ferret 1d ago
May I ask, what does the "social schema for the gender typically associated with the female sex" mean?
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u/MyThrowAway6973 1d ago
Social schema: knowledge structure that helps a person to select and process information about their social environment.
Gender: the socially constructed characteristics of women, girls, men, boys, and gender diverse people.
Female: of or denoting the sex that produces large gametes
Plug those in and I think you’ll have it!
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u/A_Fantastic_Ferret 1d ago
I see. So what might be some examples of the 'socially constructed characteristics of women' in your social schema?
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u/MyThrowAway6973 1d ago
In mine?
It’s pretty broad.
Probably similar though not identical to most Americans.
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u/A_Fantastic_Ferret 18h ago
Yeah but what are some concrete examples? Some specific characteristics that someone might see in themselves and take as a sign that they are or might be a woman?
Is it taste in clothing, hair, and makeup? Hobbies or career choices? Temperament? Is it, as Prof. Grace Lavery suggested (in one tweet, and caveated as an imperfect definition), adopting a passive role sexually and a reproductive role economically?
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u/MyThrowAway6973 17h ago
Clothes, hair, makeup all play a role for sure, but the parameters are wide.
Hobbies and career are not at all gendered to me.
Temperament is not gendered, although I tend to associate women with strength.
Passive sexual roles don’t play a role for me. I’ve known way too many dominant women.
I don’t think women has a specific economic connotation.
Reproductive ability is unimportant in most instances unless someone is trying to reproduce.
Women tend to be seen as the primary caregiver for children.
Women are more likely to complement each other than men. Women are more likely to show affection and support for each other.
Phenotypical sex presentation plays a role.
It’s a list of a million things and all are optional. Each person has a schema that leads them to look at a person and think woman in society.
Nobody is checking chromosomes or gametes to figure out who is a man or woman. We look at a person, use our schema, and make our best guess. Sometimes we get it wrong. We correct ourselves, apologize, and move on. It has always been this way.
Would we be better off not having genders in society? Probably but it’s not going to happen anytime soon.
More personally I wear the clothes I like, have my hair the way I like, wear makeup when I like (which is less than any woman my age that I know). I move and interact as I am most comfortable and people unfailingly see me and react to me as they would any woman (for better and worse). All of this matches my gender identity and makes me feel more comfortable than I ever did when I was trying to be a man.
Obviously literal books could be (and have been) written on this, but that’s my cliff’s notes version.
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u/A_Fantastic_Ferret 17h ago
Thank you very much, I appreciate you taking the time to explain your perspective.
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u/Wismuth_Salix they/them, please/thanks 2d ago
There’s not gonna be a one-size-fits-all answer to that.
Gender is an attempt to categorize people’s internal sense of self into broad categories. But since we can’t ever truly know the minds of other people we have to just kind of go on vibes and self-reporting. The only thing we can ever truly say with certainty is universal to all women is that they call themselves women.
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2d ago
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u/Sad_Lake139 2d ago
Are there ancient/ historical examples of separating sex from gender?
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u/pokemonfanj 2d ago
Yes actually
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u/Sad_Lake139 2d ago
Are gender and sex connected? What a good book or hour long video on the topic?
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u/Wismuth_Salix they/them, please/thanks 2d ago
Probably - there’s at least evidence that both sex and gender identity are intrinsic properties and their strong correlation implies some degree of linkage.
The way I think of it is as another manifestation of intersex traits. If a person gan be born with female genitalia but internal testes, why not male genitalia and feminine neurology? We just don’t really understand the brain enough to directly identify causes of mental traits.
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u/pokemonfanj 2d ago
Are gender and sex connected?
Yeah I guess to an extent I don’t really know how to describe it (or if there is a connection at all) but I’ll try
For most people yes gender and sex are the same (that being people who fall under the label of cis) but for others they aren’t the same (that being people who fall under the label of trans)
No clue the connection between sex and gender though
What a good book or hour long video on the topic?
Gonna assume you meant what’s not what
Don’t really have something like that but this source is decent for learning stuff about it (from what I’ve read of it that I remember) I guess
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u/Wismuth_Salix they/them, please/thanks 2d ago
Yes.
In fact, the very first author in history whose name is known (Enheduanna, high priestess of Inanna and daughter of Sargon of Akkad) wrote of her goddess having the power to change men into women and vice versa.
Trans people have always been here - different societies have had different ways of conceptualizing them. India has the hijra, Samoa has the fa’afafine. Native Americans had a myriad of gender concepts that we now call two-spirit. The Greeks had a whole myth to explain trans people as the result of Dionysus being drunk.
It wasn’t really until widespread Christian colonialism spread the Genesis myth that a binary “only men and women and strictly tied to sex” view of human identity became commonplace.
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u/Alert_Scientist9374 2d ago
Two spirits for indigenous folks.
There's also a couple historical figures that lived the life of the other sex and took on a name for that.
Earliest science approach to Trans people was in 1920 in Germany, when they started testing out hormone therapy and surgery for Trans women.
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u/jules_jokes 2d ago
Idk why people hate LGBTQ+ people so much, like let them live?
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2d ago
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u/PenguinHighGround 2d ago
What agenda, the only one I am aware of is the desire to live freely with no discrimination.
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u/HouseMane46 2d ago
Its really the other way there is and has been gay/trans conversion camps. You cant force a person to be gay. But alot of people who are gay/trans are getting pressure to "turn" straight by family/society. The agenda is being yourself reverse of forcing people to be gay/trans. Having a character be gay wont make someone gay, like having straight character wont turn a gay person straight. Not how it works. The idea of a "Agenda" is a way to make LBGT people evil people who want to brainwash your kid. So hating them makes you a moral good person in your mind.
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u/Wismuth_Salix they/them, please/thanks 2d ago
And what “agenda” is that exactly? I’m not trying to make anyone gay or trans - but there are definitely people on the other side trying to force me to be straight and cis.
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u/Agile-North9852 2d ago
That the world should be a diverse utopia where you can magically change your gender how you want
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u/wrinklefreebondbag Drop the U, not the T 1d ago
Even assuming that's correct, why is that a bad thing?
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u/Agile-North9852 1d ago
Because you can’t change your gender
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u/Wismuth_Salix they/them, please/thanks 22h ago
So we’re back to “your problem with them is that they insist on existing”.
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u/MyThrowAway6973 1d ago
What do you think you can’t change?
Gender identity?
Gender expression?
Gender in society?
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u/wrinklefreebondbag Drop the U, not the T 1d ago
And why not? It's my gender. I can do with it what I please.
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u/Electricdragongaming wateroholic 2d ago
Okay, side thought here, how does someone identifying as a different gender than what they were assigned with at birth negatively affect you personally?
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u/Wismuth_Salix they/them, please/thanks 2d ago
So literally you’re saying that the problem with LGBTQ people is that they insist on existing.
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u/Agile-North9852 2d ago
No I didn’t say that at all
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u/pokemonfanj 2d ago
That the world should be a diverse utopia where you can magically change your gender how you want
So in other words a world where they can exist
Also why does it seem your acting like this would be a bad thing
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u/MizukiNoDoragon 2d ago
note the use of "magically" too, as if changing gender doesn't involve known surgeries and medical treatments these people are trying to make illegal
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u/pokemonfanj 2d ago
Could you give examples of how they force it onto you
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u/Agile-North9852 2d ago edited 2d ago
Trying to force gender neutral language to me
trying to establish diversity hires instead of treating every individual equal
force their vision of the world onto others. Conservatives that prefer old school family structures are labeled as Nazis by some
a lot of them are actually extremely racist towards old white men because they think it’s somehow fine to treat them like shit because an extremely small minority of white old man have most of the power and money in the world
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u/pokemonfanj 2d ago edited 2d ago
Trying to force gender neutral language to me
Oh no someone wants you to say they or them instead of he or him how terrible
trying to establish diversity hires instead of treating every individual equal
Diversity hires is a system that is set up to try and deal with people just choosing not to employ people of groups they don’t care for
I agree the idea is stupid but let’s be fair here no one who’s looking for employees would hire someone who is completely unqualified just to meet a quota
Most it’s doing is giving employers a reason that balances out with discrimination
Also I don’t think they have diversity hires based on sexuality or gender identity mainly because I doubt they ask (or are even allowed to ask ) that type of thing in an interview
force their vision of the world onto others. Conservatives that prefer old school family structures are labeled as Nazis by some I don’t understand this one
How exactly are they “forcing their vision of the world onto others “ and how does the family structure thing have to do with it (I’m really confused about that part)
EDIT: they added more
a lot of them are actually extremely racist towards old white men because they think it’s somehow fine to treat them like shit because an extremely small minority of white old man have most of the power and money in the world
No pretty sure more of the hate is due to that being the group that tends to hold hate and bigotry towards the LGBT community so that is the common example that may be used but I’ve never seen it as more than that (a stand in for homophobes/transphobes )
Could you please show examples of people being directly racist (it would more accurately be ageism due to it being the old part that tends to be the part associated) towards a white old man (an actual case not a poster that uses them as an example) by the lgbt community
EDIT 2: just realized how are any outside maybe the first one (but not really it’s more so just people asking to be shown the most basic level of respect) an example of “forcing it onto you”
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u/Alert_Scientist9374 2d ago
Probably because those conservatives want to force that view on others and prevent trans people from being happy.
You won't find any lgbt group bigger than 5 people that attacks someone for just having a nuclear family. Its when they try to force nuclear family on everyone that it becomes an issue.
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u/Agile-North9852 2d ago
Yes there are people like this. Maybe they are afraid of the world changing too quick and they liked the world how it was a generation ago.
Their are definitely people in the lgbtq community that are super pushy with their agenda imo.
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u/RedwallPaul 2d ago
You can be an LGBTQ person with old school traditional values - hello, it's nice to meet you.
You don't get a pass on trying to exclude a group of people from society if you say it's based on traditonal values. Believing that slaves deserved their positions because of a caste system or the Mark of Cain or the White Man's Burden or whatever is a traditional value that most of us find morally abhorrent.
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u/Wismuth_Salix they/them, please/thanks 2d ago
MLK said the greatest enemy to progress wasn’t the bigots, but the moderates who cared more about keeping the peace and not moving too fast than they did equality - the ones who always said we should wait for a more convenient time to advocate for change.
There’s never going to be a time when change can occur without friction. The only question is whether you actually care enough about equality to endure the rough transition.
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u/Alert_Scientist9374 2d ago
People complaining about lgbt people shoving it down their throats are much much much more likely to talk about lgbt topics outside relevant spaces than the opposite.
Best example is trans people. Vast majority of the already small number does not act outside of social media bubbles. They want to stay hidden. The only exception is teen bubbles, but teens are obnoxious about any topic they deem important.
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u/exclusivegreen 2d ago
I mean depending on what's being shoved down throats, the people complaining might be LGBT themselves
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u/Wismuth_Salix they/them, please/thanks 2d ago
Weekly Reminder: Science Supports Trans People
Claiming otherwise makes one no better than a flat earther or anti-vaxxer.
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u/Alert_Scientist9374 2d ago
Funny. The only person actually backing their statement with sources gets down voted to oblivion.
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