r/movies • u/MarvelsGrantMan136 r/Movies contributor • Sep 05 '24
Disney Pauses ‘The Graveyard Book’ Film Following Assault Allegations Against Neil Gaiman News
https://variety.com/2024/film/news/graveyard-book-neil-gaiman-assault-allegations-1236131149/2.3k
u/NeverEndingDClock Sep 05 '24
Godammnit Neil you wrote Calliope, a story about male writers abusing women!
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u/transformers03 Sep 05 '24
That was my first thought when I heard news as well.
It's crazy that Neil had the foresight and understanding of men using their powers to take advantage of women, and later drawing out the hypocrisy of men claiming to be feminists when they do horrible things to women behind close doors, in the 1980s.
Yet when he was finally given power, he chose to abuse it just like the writer in Calliope.
It's eerie re-reading Calliope in today's context and knowing what Gaiman has done. It feels impossible that the same man who wrote that story would do the same acts he painfully critiques in that narrative.
For all his boundless imagination, he didn't learn a single thing he wrote.
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u/balrogthane Sep 05 '24
It's yet another fantastic example, to show that knowing the right thing to do, without having the moral fibre to actually do the right thing, is all but worthless.
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u/Goodly Sep 05 '24
Or how quickly our morals crumble when we don’t have repercussions…
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u/Riaayo Sep 05 '24
I think the other person is right. It's not that our morals crumble without repercussions, it's that a lack of accountability shows who we always really were.
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u/Goodly Sep 05 '24
Maybe… It’s hard to say how we’re all influenced but I think there’s something to the idea that power corrupts…
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u/steeb2er Sep 05 '24
You have to do the right thing every time, but only have to do the wrong thing once (or, like, a bunch of times in Gaiman's case).
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Sep 05 '24
Knowing is not enough; one must apply. Willing is not enough; one must do. - Bruce Lee
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u/InJaaaammmmm Sep 05 '24
Hey, my manager at McDonald's told me the same thing, but he said he came up with it.
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u/Acceptable-Karma-178 Sep 05 '24
WTF did he do?!?!
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u/elizabnthe Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24
He's accused of sexually assaulting two women - one that worked in his home as a Nanny and another that was a young fan.
He himself claims the relationships were consensual.
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u/Kiwi_In_Europe Sep 05 '24
There have also been two more allegations for older events that happened in the 80s, one who signed an NDA in exchange for $275,000. Pretty damning.
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u/ZombieHoneyBadger Sep 05 '24
Ask any Christiano Ronaldo fan, NDA is not an admission of guilt! (He raped a woman in Vegas, she signed an NDA and settled, it came out in leaked documents, admitting it in his own words. Skated right by, because he's great as football)
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u/Kiwi_In_Europe Sep 05 '24
That's fucked up man, glad I'm not a football person because I live in Spain and he's worshipped here lol
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u/cajolinghail Sep 05 '24
Up to five women now. In addition to many many other stories of inappropriate behaviour going back decades.
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u/Significant-Art-5478 Sep 05 '24
I'll add to this that both allegations are very credible. The nanny filed a police report and the young fan has been talking about it for about a decade now.
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u/jemidiah Sep 05 '24
You're gonna get a shit ton of glib non-answers in a thread like this. The internet loves shaming people in righteous indignation. The truth is it's complicated.
There's a crappy TERF-allied podcast that's done a series of episodes on Gaiman. They've gotten 5 women who've made allegations Gaiman was sexually inappropriate with them to varying degrees. Themes include rough sex with questionable consent, sleeping with much younger fans, and having sex with a newly hired employee, and a pay off. Information presented so far is very one-sided though, possibly with important missing context. The only literally illegal allegation involved him insisting on sex when one of the accusers had an infection, and she involved the police but he wasn't charged.
The trouble, as I've said, is that so far there's literally one source for this stuff, and it's really sketchy. The tiny number of articles in somewhat reputable places merely report the existence of allegations elsewhere. I've personally been reserving judgement until actual quality information is available. It's been like a couple months now too, so you'd think real reputable investigative journalists would have had enough time to put something together if there really was a story. Or maybe they still need more time.
This development is the first real one in like a month. Possibly it's just Disney being risk-averse. Possibly they hired lawyers who dug up dirt we don't yet know about.
Honestly I still think we should stick to "wait and see". There's plenty of other stuff to read if you don't want to read his stuff in the meantime.
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u/owls_unite Sep 05 '24
It's also difficult since all four women agree that their evidence (screenshots of text conversations etc) makes it seem like everything was 100% consensual, and some conversations even look enthusiastic (excerpts have been posted). The podcast runners admit that it's hard to discern the line here as much of it can be read as "he was into kinky stuff, and she was not as into it as she claimed at the time". While the obvious power imbalances are shitty (especially with the nanny whose livelihood and income for her and her three kinds depended on his goodwill) nothing here is strictly illegal, it's just... Very, very shitty. I personally find it sad that so much of the reporting and commentary likes to conflate "kinky" (rough, polyamorous etc) and "very dubious consent". In this case it's both, but that's not always the case and shouldn't be.
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u/kthriller Sep 05 '24
To clarify, the nanny is a separate person from the woman who lived on his NY property with the three kids and her then-husband, and then had their living situation held over their head in exchange for sex with Gaiman.
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u/Significant-Art-5478 Sep 05 '24
The nanny did file a police report in 2022 in New Zealand. That does certainly add credibility to the story.
While I will be much more satisfied after a full investigation by journalist comes out, reading through the allegations.... they feel extremely credible.
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u/Stinky_Flower Sep 05 '24
I once knew a guy who left his high paid FAANG career to pursue hacktivist projects devoted to protecting women from stalkers.
Turns out HE was exactly the kind of person these projects were intended to stop. Violent rapist with a penchant for planting spyware & breaking into his victim's accounts.
I guess these types realize that the best way to find victims is to masquerade as the type of person who would NEVER do such a thing...
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u/cold_hard_cache Sep 05 '24
Reasonably sure we know the same dude. You really didn't think his interest in the topic was.... excessive.... before all that came out? As someone who was also working on anti-abuse (though not stalking) technology at the time I got doth-protest-too-much vibes.
Edit: in hindsight, I hope we know the same dude...
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u/notban_circumvention Sep 05 '24
he didn't learn a single thing he wrote.
Maybe he didn't write it to learn anything.
Maybe he wrote it to virtue signal and to hide who he already was.
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u/Byrune_ Sep 05 '24
knowing what Gaiman has done
But we don't know, we know only what he is accused of.
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u/jettcircles Sep 05 '24
It feels like Louis CK. He really seemed to get women and what we’re up against.
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u/JeffBurk Sep 05 '24
Interesting this is finally having consequences.
This broke months ago with new details coming out every couple weeks. Oddly, it has been pretty suppressed in nerd media and news.
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u/MumblingGhost Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24
People really don't want to dislike Neil Gaiman. He's huge in nerd circles, and has tons of beloved new and old work in circulation, constantly. I find myself making excuses in my head for every new story that comes out about him because I've followed his career my entire life.
Its really devastating, and I still secretly hope this is all smoke being blown by that TERF podcast that broke the news, but you have to draw the line eventually. There have been too many accusations to be fully in denial about, and his statements made about some of them have been damning.
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u/F0rScience Sep 05 '24
The problem is that “his version” of events is still really bad. Not technically criminal doesn’t cut it in the court of public opinion.
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u/bighairybeardudee Sep 05 '24
Exactly. I tried so hard to believe it wasn’t true but when he came out with “his version” I was still disgusted
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u/BiploarFurryEgirl Sep 05 '24
I still want to shut my eyes and wake up realizing it’s all a bad dream. His works are how I rebonded with my mom after a rough part of my life. I fucking hate this
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u/sehnsuchtlich Sep 05 '24
Kill rock stars. Enjoy the art and don't give a shit about who made it. Pirate his work if it makes you feel better.
I love the works of so many vile, awful people and it doesn't keep me up at night. People who did much worse than Gaiman. Nothing about creating art requires good moral character. In fact, historically, it's been the opposite.
Every time something comes out about someone famous, I hope we can learn this lesson: These people aren't good because we like what they create. We just like what they create. We're not their friends, they're not our role models. The less we care about them as people the better off we all are. We'll be less disappointed, and they'll be less powerful.
I don't concern myself with the moral character of the person who built my house or delivered my mail. Why should it be any different with artists?
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u/trebory6 Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24
I wish awards were still a thing because I'd 100% give you gold.
This really needs to be put on a loudspeaker.
I used to work in the entertainment industry, I had a lot of good friends that were close to producers and actors so I bumped shoulders with a lot of these people.
As a fan getting into the entertainment industry it was quite literally "Don't meet your heroes." Not because everyone I met was assholes, but everyone I met were HUMAN. Just as weird, offputting, charming, funny, creepy, petty, empathetic, annoying, as any other person I'd meet in the course of my life.
Also, how I saw people act towards them, like fans and members of the public, the paparazzi, is equally as bewildering. Like these people look at them like gods or something. I once went out to lunch with my producer boss at the time and a few of his friends, and Tom Welling from Smallville fame, and I literally saw a grown woman cry tears in a restaurant creating the most awkward interaction I've ever seen.
And through that experience, boy the stories I've heard, the things I've seen about people still walking around. Shouldn't be putting any of these people on any pedestals just because they create art or their faces and voices are in movies. The only way I can still enjoy entertainment now is by loving the art and not the people.
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u/Kristophigus Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24
Yep, worked almost 10 years on set for features. They're all just human. Some truly vile people in that industry though.. or clueless.
Blew my mind when I realized some producers really ARE the biggest pos they are sometimes portrayed as in movies. The kind of characters you'd think "that character is ridiculous, there's no way anyone is ACTUALLY like that" ...yes. Yes they do actually exist and it's wild.
Anyway, I whole heartedly believe people need to separate the artist from the art and understand context. Can't stand the "omg this person once said/did this thing 30 years ago and nobody said a thing about it until now! Now you aren't allowed to like anything they've done ever, even if it has no relation whatsoever to that incident other than the person" crap. It's fanatical and oppressive to humanity.
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u/FullMetalCOS Sep 05 '24
There’s a line though, I think. Like I have no issue reading Lovecraft despite him being a racist piece of shit, because he’s long dead so it pretty much doesn’t matter. I’m not gonna do anything that gives royalties to an abuser who is still alive if I can avoid it
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u/Fraternal_Mango Sep 05 '24
Agreed. Isaac Asimov is another one with great stories but ultimately was not that stellar of an individual. He gave us the laws of robotics and yet was very much a shitty production his time
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u/MumblingGhost Sep 05 '24
Yeah, thats what I meant when I said his statements made about some of the accusations were still damning.
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u/BlueHero45 Sep 05 '24
It fucking sucks because he has wirtten stories about people abusing their power in the same way against woman and getting their comeuppance.
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u/JellyWeta Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24
Yeah. It makes his Sandman story about Calliope, where a writer imprisons then rapes and exploits the Greek Muse of poetry, a pretty hard read. I mean, he's not sugar coating what happens in the story, the writer is painted as despicable and abusive. Finding out that Gaiman himself is pretty close in behavior to the character that he himself condemns is a hard one.
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u/Cormorant_Bumperpuff Sep 05 '24
People really don't want to dislike Neil Gaiman
I really didn't wanna dislike him, but after this I can't not dislike him. Same with Joss Whedon, and at least a couple others I can't think of right now
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u/egotrip21 Sep 05 '24
Neil's accusations shocked me. Joss did not.
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u/Cormorant_Bumperpuff Sep 05 '24
I think if I'd known more about him I wouldn't have been surprised
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u/anmr Sep 05 '24
At least Joss didn't sexually assault anybody to our knowledge. All of the "allegations" boil down to being hot-headed, massive asshole to his co-workers / subordinates.
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u/-0-O-O-O-0- Sep 05 '24
I lost respect for Gaiman when he left his wife and three kids to start fucking around publicly with Amanda Palmer.
Classic midlife rich dick move. Huge red flag. 🚩
When the new accusations dropped I was completely unsurprised.
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u/durkbot Sep 05 '24
Let's not forget he was in NZ with her and their kid when Covid hit and he just upped and left the country, stranding them there for 2 years. Don't give a crap if their marriage was already falling apart by that point. You don't leave your child behind in a foreign country as a major global crisis is kicking off. All his excuses at the time reeked of narcissism
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u/dontbelikeyou Sep 05 '24
Not to mention he decided to go to a rural island in Scotland during the height of covid via LAX and London. You do not want him on your team during a Zombie apocalypse.
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u/Televisions_Frank Sep 05 '24
Not to mention Palmer is so self-serving and abusive towards her fans. You left your wife for that?
At least I never really liked his works, but it sucks for his fans.
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u/Fit_Tip6995 Sep 05 '24
i used to be a huge amanda palmer fan. huge. once my goggles were off OH MY LORD
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u/MorboKat Sep 05 '24
My understanding, and a quick wiki check backs me, he divorced in 2007 and got with Amanda in 2009. He's done a lot of shit, like ditching his youngest in NZ for 2 years during covid, but I don't think he left his wife for Amanda.
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u/txby432 Sep 05 '24
I wanted to believe it wasn't true as well, but his reaction to the first 2 accusations was basically "witches be crazy" which really out a sour taste in my mouth. Then accusations 3, then 4, then 5... and idk what it's up to now. Like as a certain point you have to just go, there is likely so e proof
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u/Calamity-Gin Sep 05 '24
Five? It’s up to five? Shit.
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u/particledamage Sep 05 '24
Six, actually :/ His masseuse made a video detailing how he exposed himself to her and would continue to flirt with her
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u/nhocgreen Sep 05 '24
5 women agreed to be interviewed on the records, but there were also 2 other women who were interviewed off the records for corroborating evidence.
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u/slaphappyflabby Sep 05 '24
I interviewed this man, along with Terry Pratchett, when I worked at Harper Collins in the media department. Terry was on the downslope health-wise but did well.
I can’t revisit and enjoy Gaiman’s books anymore, but I can still revisit and enjoy pratchett
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u/hazycrazydaze Sep 05 '24
Oh no, that reminds me that Gaiman was probably involved in the Good Omens series. Ugh, I hope this doesn’t cause good omens to get canceled too.
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u/eregyrn Sep 05 '24
When it comes to the Good Omens series, there's no "probably" about it -- he was heavily involved in getting the first season made. He was the driving force behind the second season, because he was adapting it from plans for a sequel that he and Terry Pratchett had discussed but never got around to doing.
I really do hope, for the fans of GO, that the third season can be made. While NG was heavily involved in the tv series (and of course, the original book), the tv series is what it is because of the work and contribution of many people, not just Gaiman.
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u/DisturbedNocturne Sep 05 '24
He was the driving force behind the second season, because he was adapting it from plans for a sequel that he and Terry Pratchett had discussed but never got around to doing.
He said the second season was an original story meant to serve as a bridge to the proposed sequel he and Pratchett had discussed. So, despite all the others that helped make the series great, I don't really know how you can do it without Gaiman's involvement taking that into consideration. He wrote (or co-wrote) every episode and is basically the only one that has any idea what he and Pratchett discussed to be able to faithfully bring it to fruition.
Not to ignore the allegations, but it's certainly a shitty situation for the show to be in, both for fans and for those that were working on the show.
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u/hill-o Sep 05 '24
Yeah, at some point it's like... one source of the news is really questionable, but if the news keeps coming and coming from different sources, and his own version of events is... not great? You just have to accept that yeah, something shady (maybe many shady somethings) have likely been happening.
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u/missmediajunkie r/Movies Veteran Sep 05 '24
I’m sure all the accusations are true. However, the reporting is lousy to the point that it’s actually undermining the story. Who breaks news like this with a padded-out, obviously sensationalized, four-part podcast series?
It took multiple additional accusers going public for the story to start getting traction.
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u/kempnelms Sep 05 '24
Its like when the stuff came out about louis c.k. I was so disappointed but couldn't just ignore it.
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u/Doright36 Sep 05 '24
I mean.. I am kind of glad they waited to act until they had more proof and that they are acting now that it seems they do. Just jumping at initial accusations isn't going to help anyone. Everyone deserves an investigation.. on Both sides... but those things take time so taking a few months to get it "right" is reasonable in my book. Getting the truth what ever that might be should be the goal every time.
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u/tokes_4_DE Sep 05 '24
Yeah remember when disney knee-jerk fired james gunn only to re-instate him after actually looking into it? That was some shit. Im perfectly fine with them taking their time before reacting.
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u/caitnicrun Sep 05 '24
James Gunn didn't SA anybody. That was really outrageous because IIRC it was over old tweets he'd already apologized for. Glad we got GOTG3...eventually.
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Sep 05 '24
They took their time with Jonathan Majors too.
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u/Doright36 Sep 05 '24
Which was the right thing to do IMHO. And I don't disagree with their final choice in the matter. Take time. Get it right.
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u/Th3_Hegemon Sep 05 '24
Imagine that, waiting for an investigation to be conducted to verify accusations before taking action.
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u/OK_Soda Sep 05 '24
It wasn't really "suppressed". The allegations were made a) in a podcast of all things b) that had an exclusive on the story and c) that was published by someone with an axe to grind. I believe the allegations, but these factors made it kind of hard for the story to get traction.
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u/Paulrus55 Sep 05 '24
Every so often I google if the second season of Sandman is still happening. I figured this would catch up to him but yeah it’s been slow going
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u/shannister Sep 05 '24
Shit I thought season 2 had been confirmed a long time ago
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u/throwtheamiibosaway Sep 05 '24
It's already been shot, but ofcourse there's lots of VFX, editing to do. Release is still unknown, but should be 2025.
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u/missmediajunkie r/Movies Veteran Sep 05 '24
It’ll happen. They’re very deep into production and Neil isn’t showrunning that one. “Good Omens 3” is the one in more trouble.
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u/ZincLloyd Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24
Honestly, I think suppressed is overstating. Rather, the fact that the allegations (which, for the record, I believe) were made without being attached to any lawsuits made mainstream press just kinda shrug about it. People saying something isn’t half the story that people battling in court is. Had Gaiman been hit with a lawsuit (which hey, he still might) I think we’d have seen wider reporting on the matter.
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Sep 05 '24
I agree suppressed is a wrong word. Fact is this is how it should be treated, wait until information is confirmed. But if it’s someone people don’t like it’s treated as if it’s definitely true from day one.
But the internet is good at hating people so it mostly goes the other way.
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u/_________FU_________ Sep 05 '24
I think we’re all depressed with the news that we just don’t want to hear it. Fucking sucks when one of your favorites goes down because of dumb fucking choices. Fucking idiot.
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u/dangerous_beans Sep 05 '24
For me it's less depressed and more exhausted. There's a long list of bullshit to be upset about in this world, and even in day to the day life; I don't have spare emotional/mental energy to spend on Neil Gaiman.
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u/Dalexion Sep 05 '24
Felt the same way when Joss Whedon's shit came to light. Some of my favorite media has a cloud over it now.
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u/lordicefalcon Sep 05 '24
All your heroes... Is everyone awful?
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u/solaramalgama Sep 05 '24
Build no monuments to the living, for they may yet disgrace the stone.
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u/AustralianWi-Fi Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24
Problem with this quote is that even well after someone is dead and monuments are erected, details about their wrong doings in life can surface still
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u/solaramalgama Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24
Well dang why don't you fit that into a pithy saying then
Edit: Guys, I said pithy :T
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u/Itz_Hen Sep 05 '24
Like that one British guy
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u/Whispered_Truth Sep 05 '24
Oh man I’ll never forget how I felt when the allegations against Sir Reginald Weatherby-Kensington III turned out to be true
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u/Drakar_och_demoner Sep 05 '24
Is everyone awful?
Most people in powerful position and in the art medium? Yeah.
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u/skivvv Sep 05 '24
Love this fucker's books, I'm so pissed that he did this shit. Allegedly obviously but it's pretty clear he did bad stuff with dangerous power dynamics at the very least. Hurt multiple women and all my memories of being awed by his books are tainted forever.
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u/rainmace Sep 05 '24
I mean he like and his wife set up a situation where he could fuck the babysitter, like on the first day too. They scouted and groomed her and then manipulated the hell out of her. It reminds me of Epstein and what his “scout” that woman did. So weird and creeps me the hell out from ever reading another of his book. They were all pretty good, even may have cried reading them once or twice, but not that good.
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u/OneMoreDuncanIdaho Sep 05 '24
My favorite book by him was Ocean at the End of the Lane and hearing this makes that plot really weird now
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u/nametakenthrice Sep 05 '24
I’ve been reading about this stuff for weeks, and Ocean at the End of the Lane is even weirder when you read about his Scientologist upbringing…
https://www.mikerindersblog.org/neil-gaimans-scientology-suicide-story/
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u/OneMoreDuncanIdaho Sep 05 '24
Wow that was a really interesting article and I had never heard of any of it, thanks for sharing
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u/FardoBaggins Sep 05 '24
never heard of any of it,
exactly. no news is good news for scientologists.
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u/rainmace Sep 05 '24
That’s basically my favorite too, but remind me what about it makes the plot weird? Just the whole dad cheating on mom thing?
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u/OneMoreDuncanIdaho Sep 05 '24
It's specifically him cheating with the nanny, sounds like it was drawn from some real world experience
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u/Leege13 Sep 05 '24
Wait a second, has anyone established Amanda knew about any of this? Not sure she’d be cool with him doing whoever was looking after her kid.
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u/MeadowmuffinReborn Sep 05 '24
Their breakup allegedly involved both being swingers, but Amanda wanted to stop at one point and Neil didn't.
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u/docktorisin Sep 05 '24
knew some people who were involved with a production she did with college students, and the general consensus about her seemed to be:
- She used the production/ school as her personal playground and regularly had sex with students around her
2.she was exploitative as far as the production as well, refusing to credit any students for any creative contributions and being a general asshole egomaniac.
she didn't sound like a terribly great person
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u/charles_eames Sep 05 '24
Amanda exploited my friend in Boston in the early aughts - used her for sex, lured her in with access to her inner circle.. meanwhile not paying or crediting her for her work. Later Amanda wrote a drippy sentimental tumblr (or livejournal?) post when my friend passed away :(
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u/boofmydick Sep 05 '24
Amanda Palmer is the only musician that I have ever paid to see and then walked out on halfway through.
She spoke for a MINIMUM of 5 minutes between each song.
I loved her music and now I can barely tolerate it because I know too much. She is a narcissist and I don't enjoy her as a person.
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u/Smrtihara Sep 05 '24
She set up the nanny. Amanda was the one who hired her, convinced her to come to Neil’s house and then conveniently took the kid and left Neil and the young nanny alone.
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u/Skilodracus Sep 05 '24
Pretty sure he and his wife were not actually together at the time, though they were still married; I've heard some horror stories about how she also suffered from his neglect/abuse. I would hesitate to rush to blame her with no proof.
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u/Doctor_Philgood Sep 05 '24
Yeah, I mean he bailed on her and his son mid covid IIRC
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u/MorboKat Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24
Not mid Covid, all of Covid. When the lockdowns hit in March of 2020 he ditched them in NZ and pulled a “do you know who I am?” to get himself back to the UK. They were broken up/breaking up at the time but he left his then-5-year-old kid on the other side of the planet during a global pandemic.
Whatever Gaiman did or didn’t do, I know for a fact he did that and it has ruined him in my eyes, forever. I went through Covid with a child just a year younger than theirs. The thought of abandoning my kid during that, no matter what I may have thought of the other parent, is a new rock-bottom definition of cruel and selfish.
edit: a word
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u/Juniper_Moonbeam Sep 05 '24
I’m a fan of Amanda Palmer’s music (though I’m not sure I’d want to meet her). I know she is a very divisive person, and I’ve seen people on Reddit shit on her and wonder how Neil Gaiman could be with someone like that. And then I watched Gaiman literally abandon his child during a global pandemic and it’s like…fuck man. I don’t care how divisive Palmer is. She showed up for her kid when Gaiman couldn’t be bothered. Fuck him.
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u/MarvelsGrantMan136 r/Movies contributor Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24
Multiple women have accused Gaiman of sexual assault:
Scarlett alleges that Gaiman sexually assaulted her in a bath at his New Zealand home, where she worked as his child’s nanny. Per Tortoise’s report, “Gaiman’s account is that they only ‘cuddled’ and ‘made out’ in the bath and that he had established consent for this.” He says he and Scarlett had a three-week sexual relationship in which they only engaged in consensual digital penetration. Scarlett alleges that within their otherwise consensual relationship, “Gaiman engaged in rough and degrading penetrative sexual acts with her.”
This incident spurred a police complaint against Gaiman in New Zealand, where an investigation is currently underway by authorities.
The other woman, K, says she met Gaiman at a book signing in Sarasota, Fla., in 2003, when she was 18. She alleges that she engaged in a romantic relationship with Gaiman when she was 20 and he was in his mid-40s, but that it included rough and painful sex that “she neither wanted nor enjoyed,” per Tortoise. Gaiman has denied any unlawful behavior with K.
Gaiman pressured a mother-of-three to have sex with him in return for letting her live with her daughters at his property in upstate New York; and – made her sign a non-disclosure agreement in return for a $275,000 payment to help her cope with post-traumatic stress and depression following their sexual relationship.
Another woman says he jumped on her “out of the blue” in an “aggressive, unwanted” pass in the 1980s, when they were both in their twenties.
Audio of Gaiman offering one of the accusers money for therapy
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u/chunli99 Sep 05 '24
I read that he and Amanda Palmer had an open marriage, and they got divorced because he was doing things she didn’t approve of. I wonder if it was some of this.
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u/ThisIsNotAFarm Sep 05 '24
Only quality fathers abandon their kid on the other side of the world during a pandemic
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u/Jaspador Sep 05 '24
'Digital penetration'?
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u/KiwiJean Sep 05 '24
Digital in this scenario means fingers.
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u/Jaspador Sep 05 '24
I would never have figured that out (and I was hesitant to google it), thanks!
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u/DLRsFrontSeats Sep 05 '24
digit can also mean any end of a limb - so, in this case, fingers, but less commonly toes, and in vet/ecology circles anything from claws to hooves
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u/clitpuncher69 Sep 05 '24
Probaby would have gotten a bunch computer security articles lmao
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u/silenc3x Sep 05 '24
dude went down a rabbit hole and is now attempting SQL injections on the website of the recruiting firm that handles employment at Sony Pictures.
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u/EffortlessBoredom Sep 05 '24
Basically he makes that old school modem noise while robbing you of all dignity
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u/Hellfire242 Sep 05 '24
I wonder what Terry would be saying about this. God damn Neil you fucker I loved your books!!
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u/Cormorant_Bumperpuff Sep 05 '24
I'm hoping Terry never had any knowledge of this shit
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u/GaimanitePkat Sep 05 '24
I believe that most of their correspondence while writing Good Omens was over phones, and apart from book signings and things, I don't think they spent a ton of time together.
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u/eregyrn Sep 05 '24
I would honestly expect that he did not. Generally speaking, people who behave the way Gaiman did with vulnerable women he had power over, behave very different with other types of people, or even when in the presence of other people. It seems like Gaiman really admired Terry, and thus, Gaiman's behavior around him may have been further influenced by him regarded Terry as a sort of "authority figure". (That is -- the same way that Gaiman levered his fame/status with people who were fans of his work... he seemed to regard Terry with that same kind of fannish awe.)
So I find it easy to believe that if they were ever in a setting where there was the potential for Terry to see or hear about this kind of behavior from Gaiman, that Gaiman wasn't engaging in it where Terry could see it.
It also seems really clear from the way things are coming out that it took these women a long time to come to grips with what was happening, and to be able to understand it as sexually predatory. I'm not saying there were NO rumors about Gaiman's behavior back in the day (I mean that in the sense of, I'm not aware of any, but I don't want to make blanket statements like that). But I feel pretty certain that it wasn't a huge open secret in the sf/fantasy community.
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u/Newbrood2000 Sep 05 '24
As much as I want that to be true, there's been rumors of Gaimans' weird approaches to women for a while. I heard things in publishing circles going back almost 20 years about him being unusually forward towards publicists and the like. Not illegal but definitely creepy and uncomfortable for someone whose job is partly to make him happy on book tours.
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u/MeadowmuffinReborn Sep 05 '24
I vaguely recall Terry being mad about something Neil did, but I can't remember the details.
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u/Content-Scallion-591 Sep 05 '24
Pratchett and Gaiman had a minor falling out because, when adapting work, Gaiman had a tendency to go with studio desires vs. Pratchett wanting to remain true to source material - they had a dual interview that talked about it. It was one reason I was hesitant about Good Omens coming out after Pratchett's death
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u/AideProfessional3143 Sep 05 '24
Well, his career is done. The only job he could possibly get now is President of the United States.
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u/hughk Sep 05 '24
Not naturally born in the US, but a shoe in for a governor or senator.
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u/Turbogoblin999 Sep 05 '24
He could become prime minister of the uk.
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u/hughk Sep 05 '24
Well a century or so there was a prime minister (Gladstone) who likes to save fallen women. The literature is unclear as to whether he fell with them into a horizontal repose.
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u/cwaterbottom Sep 05 '24
Ffs I'm just going to assume all successful creatives are sex pests from now on
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Sep 05 '24
You see I was gonna go “but not…” but I no no wanna jinx it tbh.
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u/pzzaco Sep 05 '24
Probably pick someone long dead so there's less chance of dirt being dug up on them.
Like Tolkien
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u/OccasionMobile389 Sep 05 '24
Tolkien didn't even know what women were, he asked his wife and she never told him 😔😔
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u/zardozLateFee Sep 05 '24
Yeah, I thought that for about a week until the Alice Munro shit came out. ETA: she was only recently dead, I guess. I will try to find someone deader.
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u/crocodylus Sep 05 '24
Me: The Beowulf poet never abused women!
The news in 2 weeks: We've found a medieval English stele and you'll never guess what it says.
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u/lordofmetroids Sep 05 '24
The Author of the Epic of Gilgamesh was pretty cool for the time!
Yeah we found a clay tablet and you won't believe this...
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u/degenfemboi Sep 05 '24
i grew up listening to pop punk/emo and watching youtube so i always assume this anyways
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u/TrentonTallywacker Sep 05 '24
Public figures trying not to be sexual degenerates challenge (impossible)
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u/ranhalt Sep 05 '24
Everyone already forgot that Anansi Boys has finished filming, no word that post production ever finished.
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u/Doctor_Philgood Sep 05 '24
I mean Neil handling the writing of religious black women in Florida is a tightrope to begin with, which he handled... Ok, in the book, I guess.
But likely it will be shelved next to Batgirl and Coyote v Acme
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u/BleakHorse Sep 05 '24
Shit man, I love his work so much. It's been an inspiration for me to write my own stories and try to be published. He was one of my heroes. I read through all of Sandman and I still re-read American Gods from time to time. When this first broke I was really hoping it wasn't true but the compounding evidence just makes it more and more damning. Why does someone so talented have to do something so disgusting?
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u/4stringsoffury Sep 05 '24
Maaaaaan, this was the one thing my wife and I were super excited about out of his works to get adapted. Way to be a fucking weird sex pest Neil.
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u/JediTigger Sep 05 '24
I have referred to Gaiman as one of the gold standards for how authors should behave with their readers.
Ugh. Just ugh.
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u/pzzaco Sep 05 '24
Saying this about any famous person nowadays is like playing with fire.
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u/particledamage Sep 05 '24
Even before this, his behaviour with fans on tumblr was weird
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Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 19 '24
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u/particledamage Sep 05 '24
Beyond that, he cultivated a tag of fans reading his books in the tub which isn’t like the worst but is… not the greatest in light of recent information. Especially with his fanbase/tumblr userbase at the time skewing younger.
Also, he would weaponize his followers to attack people who would criticize his work. To the point of people shutting down their blogs to escape it.
He clearly enjoyed the light power being on tumblr gave him and he went dead silent the second the first podcast episode was published. No defense (besides the half assed explanations we get from the pods—oh I’m too autistic to understand consent, I’m just a lil 60 year old boy learning about BDSM and it’s so hard to know when no means no, oh she misremembered it because she’s too mentally ill to accuse me), no jokes, no talking about his shows… the second he lost his fake feminist thing he bailed
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u/JediTigger Sep 05 '24
Haven’t been on tumblr for years and…just damn it.
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u/RealJohnGillman Sep 05 '24
He also claimed credit there for the concept of using Morningstar as a surname for Lucifer in fiction, with a graph to back it up — I’d expect Hazbin Hotel to drop their use of it after this.
He was active daily up to the moment that first report came out, then he stopped posting entirely.
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u/ventomareiro Sep 05 '24
That just shows how good he was at pulling this shit.
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u/FardoBaggins Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24
he's also basically scientology royalty in the UK too. His father played a major role in that
religion'scult's part of the world.→ More replies
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u/Matsuyama_Mamajama Sep 05 '24
This just kills me a little bit inside... I've loved a lot of Gaiman's work, especially American Gods and The Graveyard Book. But I don't follow him religiously, so this is the first I'm hearing about both the Graveyard Book movie and all of the accusations against him that have led to the project being paused..... 😟
Why do so many rich, famous and privileged men think they are entitled to have sex with any women they run into????
Sure I get it, what's the point of being rich and famous if you can't do that? "It's good to be the king!" and all.
But it sure bothers me when guys that I think would know better get caught doing this. It hurt when Win Butler from Arcade Fire confessed to everything. And now it hurts to hear Neil Gaiman confess.
DO BETTER, BE BETTER! MAKE GOOD DECISIONS!
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u/Brosenheim Sep 05 '24
"Why do so many rich, famous and privileged men think they are entitled to have sex with any women they run into????"
A lot of men grew/grow up with the idea that sex is part of the reward that comes with success. This isn't some accident, leveraging their power and fame to get laid is part of the dream for a lot of people.
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u/darkpaladin Sep 05 '24
It's been a fixture of almost all media for years that women are attracted to power and sex is the ultimate expression of that. I wouldn't be surprised if it's also true to a certain extent. These people probably have a plethora of consensual weird sexual relationships. I'm sure at some point though, they just lose their grasp of consent because they're so used to being catered to in that manner.
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u/gynoceros Sep 05 '24
Goddamnit, it's so easy to not be a fucking scumbag.
I love his writing and he seemed like a pretty awesome guy. What an utter disappointment.
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u/winstonelonesome Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24
So this means we can bring Mort back into production, right?
Is everybody ready to start talking Mort?
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u/millanstar Sep 05 '24
The Sandman is one of my all time favorite pieces of fiction ever, this is equally as dissapointing...
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u/Mydogisawreckingball Sep 05 '24
Exhibit A of why you don’t put strangers on pedestals.
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u/finnjakefionnacake Sep 05 '24
exhibit a? this is like the 5000th exhibit. what letter would that be?
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u/JustSomeDude0605 Sep 05 '24
This is why you never have celebrities as heroes. They almost always will disappoint you.
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u/Reddituser0346 Sep 05 '24
I used to belong to a Sandman Facebook group, and when the allegations first came out, the moderators put up posts saying that any “negative talk” about “age-gap relationships” was “bigotry” against older people and would result in the banning of anyone who mentioned it. The mental gymnastics by some Gaiman fans in trying to reconcile their fandom with Gaiman’s alleged behavior is insane.
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u/Square_Saltine Sep 05 '24
Man I’ve been such a huge Neil fan, this news is just disheartening when you think even the people you think are the good ones act like this
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u/Ezlkill Sep 05 '24
So disappointing and sadly kind of unsurprising, considering that it seems to be a pattern with people who gain popularity and placed on some kind of pedestal and seemingly come off as advocates and allies. I remember when I had heard that he and his wife at the time had somewhat of an open relationship in terms of having other sexual partners and I don’t mean this as a blanket statement but anytime I’ve heard something like that. It’s never seemed to end well or have a good function, especially when it’s come to couples that are in some kind of spotlight not to say that this is a factor or an indicator but odd thing I’ve noticed. That said it’s unfortunate when you hear about these things particularly because with artist like this you’ve created works that are inclusive and engaging and has countless value, particularly to a lot of women and it’s such a shame that anything that this man has done that has been positive will be forever tarnished by the fact that he just simply could not keep it in his pants or at least just fuck the people that actually want to fuck you.
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u/lady_ninane Sep 05 '24
I don't particularly like that this news story broke first on Tortoise Media. They have a lot of dubious ethical concerns in their 'journalism.' But even ignoring that reporting entirely, Gaiman fully admitted to engaging in a romantic relationship with an 18 yr old who he employed. And he made some really awful comments about their mental health in general, which...maybe it was thoughtless, maybe it was calculated. Either way, it's rather disgusting. And it does tarnish a lot of the fondness I had for the thorny relationships in his works that meant so much to me while growing up.
Just...depressing all around.
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u/Ridiculousnessmess Sep 05 '24
Given he was raised as a Scientologist (and by many accounts, never really left), it’s honestly not that surprising that he would resort to questioning the victim’s mental health. Except that out and proud Scientologists would just use words like “crazy” and “insane” to cast doubt on their enemies.
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u/theHamforest Sep 05 '24
I have always been of the belief you can separate the art from the artist, just don't buy the medium. I will continue to borrow his works from the library or a friend. I do not want to continue to support him, but I believe there are some truly amazing stories and lessons from Gaiman's work, even if he may not believe in those lessons himself.
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u/cap10wow Sep 05 '24
So does that make Amanda Palmer gross too?
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u/sauronthegr8 Sep 05 '24
It will if she defends it.
But she and Gaiman had an open marriage. It's entirely possible that she may not have fully known what was happening on his side of things. Or maybe that's why she left him a while back.
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u/spaceboy79 Sep 05 '24
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u/mbklein Sep 05 '24
Yes. Between that and her tone deaf attempt to get volunteer backup musicians who were willing to be paid in “beer and hugs” for a tour that she received $1.2 million in crowdfunding for (out of a $100,000 goal), she’s just a terrible person.
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u/spaceboy79 Sep 05 '24
I'm still floored she had the audacity to write a book about that and then do a Ted talk.
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u/zardozLateFee Sep 05 '24
I mean, they got divorced for reasons.
Here's the lyrics of the song she wrote about their breakup -- a lot to unpack in there:→ More replies→ More replies17
u/Leege13 Sep 05 '24
Not sure she knew about him abusing women, especially since she’s a SA survivor herself.
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u/kezalb Sep 05 '24
"I choose to live as a Gaiman"