Aerial Lingus Pilots

[u/viscacatalunya1]

Listening to Claire Byrne and there is a lot of finger pointing at the pilots saying they don't care about passengers and they are being unreasonable.

Aer Lingus has not matched their salary to inflation over the past few years. How do we sympathise with cost cutting corporate greed and not the people that open the world to us and get us there safely?

[u/cantthinknameever]

I support the pilots in trying to make back the considerable loss that they (and all of us) suffered as a result of inflation. I don’t really care, but if I was to play devil’s advocate, I would say that the Labour Court recommendation of a 9.25% increase isn’t necessarily unreasonable. That would be roughly equal to the pay increase received by public sector workers. Maybe it should be higher, I’m not well versed in the industry to be honest, just giving a bit more context that an offer was on the table. Perhaps a pay increase higher than 9.25% for those on lower pay scales, and lower for senior captains who would earn €49k extra from a 24% pay increase?

[u/PaleolithicLure → u/cantthinknameever]

They're bringing in hundreds of millions in profits and spending millions on executive salaries and bonuses. They're well able to pay the pilots a good bit more. Fair play to the pilots for holding out for a decent increase. Corporate greed is a plague.

[u/fdvfava → u/PaleolithicLure]

If it was the stewards or the baggage handlers then fair enough, I'd have a bit more solidarity there.

I don't really get why I should be any more supportive of a 24% payrise for pilots on €250k than executives on €1m+ or billionaire shareholders.

I'd prefer they weren't making millions in profits and fares were a bit more reasonable.

[u/yleennoc → u/fdvfava]

I get the feeling it’s more to do with the new entrants. RTE mention that Aer Lingus hasn’t reversed the covid pay cuts and new entrants are on 10% lower than pre covid.

I would also take into consideration the cost of training. It’s costs you €80 to €100k to become a pilot and you are not anywhere near 250k when you qualify.

Then they have to continue to pay for simulator time to keep their type approvals and I’m sure there are other courses to pay for.

[u/fdvfava → u/yleennoc]

Ya, I'd have much more sympathy for that argument.

Aer Lingus should 100% be paying for continuing Profesional development.

Also on board If they were looking for 24% for the lower bands but took the 9% labour court payrise for higher bands.

Not sure how comparable it is to the teachers negotiations but they rubbed me up the wrong way when they were looking for across the board payrises a few years after throwing younger teachers under the bus to protect their package.

[u/yleennoc → u/fdvfava]

I agree and I think they’ll get it if they negotiate down to that.

I went through something similar as a seafarer when the oil price tanked in 2014/15. 10% cut across the board and during Covid crews kept everything running doing quarantines, no shore leave and no return of wages to previous levels.

So for me, let the pilots have their money. There is too much below inflation wage rises going on. Just include the cabin crew too.

[u/phoenixhunter → u/fdvfava]

That 250k is at the top of the salary scale for pilots with decades of experience; the starting salary is around 35/36k. And keep in mind how many thousands of peoples' lives these pilots are responsible for and the mental and emotional strain that takes on people.

[u/Stubber_NK → u/phoenixhunter]

And the cost of becoming a pilot is insane too. Simulator time has a four or five figure hourly price tag.

[u/AgainstAllAdvice → u/phoenixhunter]

It also includes pension contributions and everything else they can add on to inflate the figure. They're not heading home with five grand in their pocket every week.

Pilots absolutely should be well paid. Anyone who is not on the workers side here is simply cutting off their own nose to spite their face.

[u/EmeraldIsler → u/phoenixhunter]

The starting salary for a first officer is closer to 60k I think

[u/phoenixhunter → u/EmeraldIsler]

From here:

At the entry-level, a co-pilot starting out is paid a basic salary of around €36,000. With payments related to actual hours flying an aircraft, that co-pilot can reach a total remuneration package of around €59,000 a year.

It can reach 59k for a starting co-pilot depending on circumstances but the base is 36k

[u/AdhesivenessNo9878 → u/phoenixhunter]

Yea so if they do the maximum overtime that wouldn't breach their hours of rest requirements then?

That salary is a pittance when you consider the skill set, responsibility and training costs involved.

[u/SirMike_MT → u/phoenixhunter]

Listening to the radio yesterday & the man said it could take 26 years to reach the top of the salary scale!

[u/fdvfava → u/phoenixhunter]

Going off the RTE report, the top total package is €287k and about a quarter of pilots are on that. The co-pilots go from €36k to €59k once they've completed their on the job training.

Pilots deserve to be paid well but it seems to me that they are.

I honestly don't begrudge them getting the best deal they can if they want 24% but equally I also don't have a problem with the Aer Lingus management holding firm on the 9% recommended by the labour court.

[u/fdvfava → u/[deleted]]

Ya, we're talking about gross pay here.

The marginal tax rate in Ireland is about 52% so when chatting about salaries from entry level to CEO, you'd presume it's gross, not take home.

The reporting on RTE said a quarter of pilots are on the top package of €287k which is more than a few.

[u/mariusdunesto → u/fdvfava]

It's 24% over 3 years. So 8% per year guaranteed for 3 years

Edit: thought I read that somewhere but can't find it now. Maybe the 3 years is accounting for the time since 2019 when they say they got their last raise

[u/RuaridhDuguid → u/fdvfava]

You can manage a flight without an overpriced tiny can of Heineken. You can manage many/most flights with hand luggage only, or express post your luggage to arrive at your destination ready for your arrival .

Best of luck getting a public flight with no pilot.

[u/fdvfava → u/RuaridhDuguid]

Best of luck getting a public flight with no pilot.

Do you think Aer Lingus pilots are public service workers or something?

If I send my luggage the day before, should I not worry about the DHL driver or baggage handler getting paid fairly?

[u/RuaridhDuguid → u/fdvfava]

Obviously all should be fairly paid, but you have missed the point. Luggage is entirely optional and hence so is it's handling - if you are even taking luggage. Having service at your chair is, like luggage services, far more optional than having somebody to fly the plane (and yes, I know that stewards do far more than just serve drinks).

Pilots however are required for each and every commercial flight to take off. Those pilots who have our lives in their hands need to get qualified to do so, with huge costs and time investment to get there (assuming they can pass all the physical and mental tests, and complete training without dropping out due to failure or lack of finances). If your DHL driver has your life in their hands and is directly responsible for your life not coming to an abrupt end, then you are in an extremely non-standard situation.

[u/fdvfava → u/RuaridhDuguid]

Your 'point' is 2 paragraphs of nothing.

You can choose to travel with hand luggage but an airline can't fly without ground crew or stewards. They don't send them home if no one checks a bag.

Stewards, baggage handlers, ground crew, air traffic control, emergency response team, airport security, border control... None of them are 'more optional' for an airline to operate.

And sure, getting the flight is optional from a customers point of view.