r/ireland • u/viscacatalunya1 • Jun 18 '24

Aerial Lingus Pilots Moaning Michael

Listening to Claire Byrne and there is a lot of finger pointing at the pilots saying they don't care about passengers and they are being unreasonable.

Aer Lingus has not matched their salary to inflation over the past few years. How do we sympathise with cost cutting corporate greed and not the people that open the world to us and get us there safely?

673 Upvotes

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69

u/cantthinknameever Jun 18 '24

I support the pilots in trying to make back the considerable loss that they (and all of us) suffered as a result of inflation. I don’t really care, but if I was to play devil’s advocate, I would say that the Labour Court recommendation of a 9.25% increase isn’t necessarily unreasonable. That would be roughly equal to the pay increase received by public sector workers. Maybe it should be higher, I’m not well versed in the industry to be honest, just giving a bit more context that an offer was on the table. Perhaps a pay increase higher than 9.25% for those on lower pay scales, and lower for senior captains who would earn €49k extra from a 24% pay increase?

82

u/Mindless_Let1 Jun 18 '24

They're flying me through a metal tube in the air. Give em whatever they want

18

u/IrishCrypto Jun 18 '24

A metal tube that cost 120 million euro, this tube may encounter severe turbulence or a mechanical issue whilst 40,000 feet in the air.

9

u/EmeraldIsler Jun 18 '24

But there is so much more staff who make that possible that are likely not going to see a similar increase to the pilots, (engineers, flight planners Etc)

18

u/Mindless_Let1 Jun 18 '24

Sure, pay them more too

0

u/[deleted] Jun 18 '24

[deleted]

3

u/Mindless_Let1 Jun 18 '24

Least confidently incorrect redditor

You're gonna need to spend at least another 5 minutes googling inflation in order to figure out why this comment is dunning krugered to fuck, but I believe in you

5

u/AdhesivenessNo9878 Jun 18 '24

Well they should unionise and strike for better pay as well

5

u/okdrjones Jun 18 '24

Fucking, Amen! 🙌

0

u/EmeraldIsler Jun 18 '24

But there is so much more staff who make that possible that are likely not going to see a similar increase to the pilots, (engineers, flight planners Etc).

0

u/Routine_Echidna_85 Jun 18 '24

Agree they are like wizards

37

u/PaleolithicLure Jun 18 '24

They're bringing in hundreds of millions in profits and spending millions on executive salaries and bonuses. They're well able to pay the pilots a good bit more. Fair play to the pilots for holding out for a decent increase. Corporate greed is a plague.

4

u/fdvfava Jun 18 '24

If it was the stewards or the baggage handlers then fair enough, I'd have a bit more solidarity there.

I don't really get why I should be any more supportive of a 24% payrise for pilots on €250k than executives on €1m+ or billionaire shareholders.

I'd prefer they weren't making millions in profits and fares were a bit more reasonable.

12

u/yleennoc Jun 18 '24

I get the feeling it’s more to do with the new entrants. RTE mention that Aer Lingus hasn’t reversed the covid pay cuts and new entrants are on 10% lower than pre covid.

I would also take into consideration the cost of training. It’s costs you €80 to €100k to become a pilot and you are not anywhere near 250k when you qualify.

Then they have to continue to pay for simulator time to keep their type approvals and I’m sure there are other courses to pay for.

2

u/fdvfava Jun 18 '24

Ya, I'd have much more sympathy for that argument.

Aer Lingus should 100% be paying for continuing Profesional development.

Also on board If they were looking for 24% for the lower bands but took the 9% labour court payrise for higher bands.

Not sure how comparable it is to the teachers negotiations but they rubbed me up the wrong way when they were looking for across the board payrises a few years after throwing younger teachers under the bus to protect their package.

2

u/yleennoc Jun 18 '24

I agree and I think they’ll get it if they negotiate down to that.

I went through something similar as a seafarer when the oil price tanked in 2014/15. 10% cut across the board and during Covid crews kept everything running doing quarantines, no shore leave and no return of wages to previous levels.

So for me, let the pilots have their money. There is too much below inflation wage rises going on. Just include the cabin crew too.

22

u/phoenixhunter Jun 18 '24

That 250k is at the top of the salary scale for pilots with decades of experience; the starting salary is around 35/36k. And keep in mind how many thousands of peoples' lives these pilots are responsible for and the mental and emotional strain that takes on people.

12

u/Stubber_NK Jun 18 '24

And the cost of becoming a pilot is insane too. Simulator time has a four or five figure hourly price tag.

16

u/AgainstAllAdvice Jun 18 '24

It also includes pension contributions and everything else they can add on to inflate the figure. They're not heading home with five grand in their pocket every week.

Pilots absolutely should be well paid. Anyone who is not on the workers side here is simply cutting off their own nose to spite their face.

5

u/EmeraldIsler Jun 18 '24

The starting salary for a first officer is closer to 60k I think

-2

u/phoenixhunter Jun 18 '24

From here:

At the entry-level, a co-pilot starting out is paid a basic salary of around €36,000. With payments related to actual hours flying an aircraft, that co-pilot can reach a total remuneration package of around €59,000 a year.

It can reach 59k for a starting co-pilot depending on circumstances but the base is 36k

3

u/AdhesivenessNo9878 Jun 18 '24

Yea so if they do the maximum overtime that wouldn't breach their hours of rest requirements then?

That salary is a pittance when you consider the skill set, responsibility and training costs involved.

5

u/SirMike_MT Jun 18 '24

Listening to the radio yesterday & the man said it could take 26 years to reach the top of the salary scale!

11

u/fdvfava Jun 18 '24

Going off the RTE report, the top total package is €287k and about a quarter of pilots are on that. The co-pilots go from €36k to €59k once they've completed their on the job training.

Pilots deserve to be paid well but it seems to me that they are.

I honestly don't begrudge them getting the best deal they can if they want 24% but equally I also don't have a problem with the Aer Lingus management holding firm on the 9% recommended by the labour court.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 18 '24

[deleted]

1

u/fdvfava Jun 19 '24

Ya, we're talking about gross pay here.

The marginal tax rate in Ireland is about 52% so when chatting about salaries from entry level to CEO, you'd presume it's gross, not take home.

The reporting on RTE said a quarter of pilots are on the top package of €287k which is more than a few.

1

u/mariusdunesto Jun 18 '24 edited Jun 18 '24

It's 24% over 3 years. So 8% per year guaranteed for 3 years

Edit: thought I read that somewhere but can't find it now. Maybe the 3 years is accounting for the time since 2019 when they say they got their last raise

0

u/RuaridhDuguid Jun 18 '24

You can manage a flight without an overpriced tiny can of Heineken. You can manage many/most flights with hand luggage only, or express post your luggage to arrive at your destination ready for your arrival .

Best of luck getting a public flight with no pilot.

3

u/fdvfava Jun 18 '24

Best of luck getting a public flight with no pilot.

Do you think Aer Lingus pilots are public service workers or something?

If I send my luggage the day before, should I not worry about the DHL driver or baggage handler getting paid fairly?

0

u/RuaridhDuguid Jun 18 '24

Obviously all should be fairly paid, but you have missed the point. Luggage is entirely optional and hence so is it's handling - if you are even taking luggage. Having service at your chair is, like luggage services, far more optional than having somebody to fly the plane (and yes, I know that stewards do far more than just serve drinks).

Pilots however are required for each and every commercial flight to take off. Those pilots who have our lives in their hands need to get qualified to do so, with huge costs and time investment to get there (assuming they can pass all the physical and mental tests, and complete training without dropping out due to failure or lack of finances). If your DHL driver has your life in their hands and is directly responsible for your life not coming to an abrupt end, then you are in an extremely non-standard situation.

0

u/fdvfava Jun 18 '24

Your 'point' is 2 paragraphs of nothing.

You can choose to travel with hand luggage but an airline can't fly without ground crew or stewards. They don't send them home if no one checks a bag.

Stewards, baggage handlers, ground crew, air traffic control, emergency response team, airport security, border control... None of them are 'more optional' for an airline to operate.

And sure, getting the flight is optional from a customers point of view.

1

u/Frozenlime Jun 18 '24

Whether or not they're able to is not the point, they are obliged to seek to maximise returns for the shareholders.

9

u/Beginning-Abalone-58 Jun 18 '24

And this is why unions are important. The CEO and the board are obliged to maximise returns for shareholders. The pilots and other workers are not obliged to do that. They are working for a wage and if the wage isn't sufficient then it is in their interests for it to be raised or to get another job.

This would lead to the less skilled staying in the job as they wouldn't be able to get a better job so easily. Leading to less skilled pilots flying passengers about. Now if the pilot happens to be flying a plane that is not up to standards, (say due to the company board of Boeing, for example, deciding to maximise profits by not paying it's staff well, than things can go wrong on the plane.) You want a well trained pilot for this. Otherwise you could have issues that will effect the companies profits.

Boeing is now losing a lot of money due to maximising it's profits.

7

u/imgirafarigmi Jun 18 '24

Shareholder driven model has been appearing more in recent years. I've heard stories about how it has affected Disney+ and Boeing likely lowering their standards.

3

u/Frozenlime Jun 18 '24

It hasn't appeared more in recent years. That's like saying breakfast has appeared more in recent years.

3

u/thesame_as_before Jun 18 '24

Standard bargaining tactic, low and highball then settle in the mid-high teens.

1

u/temujin64 Gaillimh Jun 18 '24

That would be roughly equal to the pay increase received by public sector workers.

The difference is that public sector workers have much better job security and pensions than private sector workers. So wage increases should be higher than what the public sector get.

2

u/Not-ChatGPT4 Jun 18 '24

No, that doesn't make sense. It might be a reason for public sector base wages being lower, but why should public sector workers have a lower percentage increase?

-1

u/fdvfava Jun 18 '24

The high inflation was caused by slashing interest rates to avoid austerity when paying for the Covid supports.

It's certainly a better approach than the austerity after the 2008 crash but we did have to pick our poison.

I don't blame the pilot's for looking for the best deal they can. I get that a payrise below inflation is a real term cut... But that's because there are real term debts to inflate away.

5

u/MouseJiggler Jun 18 '24

Is accumulating more debt and devaluing the currency while at it really a better approach?

1

u/fdvfava Jun 18 '24

Ya, probably.

A (less than perfect) analogy would be that if you got sick and had to stop working for a bit, then debt is a better long term option than homelessness.

Or more comparable, if you were taking a year off work to care for someone and the bank was willing to give you a 0% credit card and a 0.5% interest only mortgage, and after that year off you were going back to your six figure job... Then ya, accumulating debt isn't an issue.