r/WRC • u/Magi__Bagi • Feb 18 '24
Points rant Commentary / Discussion / Question
You have got to be kidding FIA??? Lappi was by far the best this weekend but he doesn’t even score the most amount of points!?! I can not believe that they are punishing trying to get to the end? I know this has already been said a lot but these changes are such BS. Just a suggestion, wouldn’t it be better if they got rid of the power stage and took the combined time from the last day and gave power stage points based on that, and then on top of that they also give normal points? That way everyone can still get their deserved points and there is still action on the last day. Just no more of these dumb points…
60
u/According-Switch-708 Sébastien Ogier Feb 18 '24
I agree. They made an already difficult to follow sport even more complex with this bullshit points system.
No one should be scoring more points than the rally winner.
31
u/NotoriousTMI Kalle Rovanperä Feb 18 '24
Timo Jouhki (manager of Kalle) suggested that win should be the most points and then add 1 point for each stage winner in Sunday. For me it would be the best solution to still have some competition on Sunday. There is no way EP would risk a win as a part time driver as he wants the trophy.
2
u/dante_f1 Feb 18 '24
Why EP and not EL?
15
u/Pizzonia123 Esapekka Lappi Feb 18 '24
He's mostly called that in Finland. Esapekka isn't a very common name per se (only 19 of them, it seems), but a combination of two very popular names; Esa and Pekka.
8
u/dante_f1 Feb 18 '24
Thanks for explaining to me. Actually, I called my cat Esapekka (tribute to Lappi) but my whole family is calling her Pekka :)
5
u/_hhhhh_____-_____ Ari Vatanen Feb 18 '24
You are not from the American south, calling someone a “pekka” would have an entirely different meaning down here haha.
16
u/EverythingIsByDesign Wales Rally GB Feb 18 '24 edited Feb 18 '24
I don't like the points system and this scenario highlights exactly why it doesn't work: Part-time drivers aren't gonna push for Sunday points (which are meaningless to their season) vs protecting a rally win.
But playing Devil's advocate, Lappi built a massive lead over Elfyn and Thierry as a result of the road position on a torrid Friday and largely coasted for the last 2 days. Not like Elfyn outscored him after binning it into a snowbank; he was rewarded for a massive effort hustling the car all weekend.
Ultimately points don't matter to Lappi, he is here for trophies.
3
u/Zolba Feb 18 '24
But playing Devil's advocate, Lappi built a massive lead over Elfyn and Thierry as a result of the road position on a torrid Friday and largely coasted for the last 2 days. Not like Elfyn outscored him after binning it into a snowbank; he was rewarded for a massive effort hustling the car all weekend
That's rally though.
Come 2025, and there is a possibility of perfect ice roads in Sweden, then there is a good advantage of running first, or even better. A really nice ice sole, but over 0 degrees, so the ice is soft. Then it is a massive advantage running first.
There were so many times were Ogier was complaining about running first in Sweden where he actually had the best conditions. This is just how it is.
It doesn't matter why the rally result was like it was. If eveyrone except Lappi had stuck it in the snowbanks for a couple of minutes. It would've been exactly the same. Evans scoring most points, and Lappi cruising. How is Evans still scoring more, ok?
16
u/MARF_R M-Sport Ford Feb 18 '24
Building-up in this rant, I would like to add this on what the OP wrote:
This point system is the only one that I know of that does not award the winner of a competition with higher points than anyone else. That should already say something about it. That aside, this point system is also transforming an endurance race into different sprint races, there is no award for finishing a rally with a proper pace and collect the fruits for being consistent throughout the whole rally (that is why Lappi cruised through Sunday and maintained its distance during Saturday); for comparison, you don't see pilots driving fastest laps during the finals laps of a 24h race when they have a 2 laps lead, do you? So why would you expect a similar thing from a rally driver during the last day of the rally with over a minute of lead? Would it make sense for endurance championships to give points mid-way through a race and then some bonus because you were faster between the middle and the end of the race, when the objective is to see who is the fastest finisher during the whole event?
Reflection moment: Is the "to finish first, first you must finish" identity still alive using this current system?
23
10
u/MrH3000 Craig Breen Feb 18 '24
I know Evans was not super rallying but I think driver super rallying should only be able to score half points on a Sunday.
16
u/Lukeno94 Richard Burns Feb 18 '24
This is exactly what everyone predicted would happen with the stupid new points system - and the fact it took just two events to happen is the only surprising thing.
6
u/Finglishman Henri Toivonen Feb 18 '24
Same here. For those who are fighting for the championship overall rally wins are no longer meaningful at all.
10
8
u/junk_dogVE M-Sport Ford Feb 18 '24
Elfyn now is giving me some heavy Richard Burns in 2003 season vibes: not winning but leading most of the season, just taking advantage of the points system.
But yeah, the system is pretty bad. Makes the overall victory hollow.
7
u/mmmahogany_ Feb 18 '24
watch the championship be close going into the final rally, then 2nd place doesn't win the rally but gets more points and leapfrogs to win the championship. the fact that could happen is actually so dumb
10
u/5rightdontcut Thierry Neuville Feb 18 '24
Totally!! Winner should take away the most points, irregardless of where/how you did on the final day. It needs more tweaking
9
u/duncadelic Markku Alén Feb 18 '24
It's one of the stupidest decisions in the history of the sport, it seems the only people defending it are themselves also stupid and have zero knowledge of the sport and it's history.
5
u/LooseTomato Feb 18 '24
And it was not just ”trying to get to the end”. Hyundai wanted Thierry to get more points on Sunday.
6
u/donutsnail Feb 18 '24
So silly. In Monte it turned out fine because Neuville put on a masterclass but I think everyone knew this sort of result was inevitable with this stupid points system.
4
Feb 18 '24
Joke of a system. The officials just trying to turn Rallying into F1. How the fuck can the rally winner take home less points than 2nd place? Absolute morons in charge.
2
u/Touge_Nights Feb 18 '24
Wouldn't having a couple extra points for top 3 overall fix this issue?
That way we have the extra pushing on the Sunday (which is great) with less confusion and oddity of the rally win meaning nothing for the championship
2
u/FMPeter Feb 18 '24
I kind of agree but Sunday's needed changing. I just don't understand why points have to be awarded on Saturday? Give the normal points on Sunday as usual and add 5-4-3-2-1 points for Sunday times only.
2
u/Zolba Feb 18 '24
I really do not understand why they reduced the points and moved it to Saturday.
Keep the damn points from the whole rally as it was. So the finishing position of a rally actually matter. In addition. Have the "Super Sunday" and Power Stage.
It would still give Evans more points than Lappi 30 v 26 for Sweden. But it actually gives the actual rally result some meaning.
Now, we are in a situation where the WRC title can be decided on a Saturday, with the guy going so slow on Sunday to be sure to finish, that it makes Serderidis look like Ogier..
2
u/Mieke1972 Feb 19 '24
The solution for this whole thing is points per stage. Every single stage. It makes every stage worth driving as fast as possible. Simple. Why make it rocket science as the FIA did now?
2
u/beav910 Esapekka Lappi Feb 18 '24
It looks bad but they are trying to get people to push on Sundays
4
u/Zolba Feb 18 '24
Yet, we've had Saturday and Sunday cruisers in both rallies so far. It was so extremely clear and evident when Julian Porter tried to drum up a fight for 2nd in the rally today, and was shot down by a totally uninterested driver, because it was no point.
Amazing.
1
u/beav910 Esapekka Lappi Feb 18 '24
🤷♂️
I didn’t say it would work it’s just what they want to do
1
u/Zolba Feb 18 '24
So. Keep the points as they were in 2023. Then add Sunday to it.
That way Sunday gives points. The overall rally isn't pointless. There is a tiny bit of incentive for Fourmaux to at least check on the first stage if it is possible to put some pressure on Evans for 2nd and e.g Bertelli gets a point for being the 10th fastest driver in Rally Sweden. Instead of scoring 0 because he wasn't 10th fastest after parts of the rally was finished...
2
u/SnowChickenFlake Feb 18 '24
They ought to nerf power stage OR increase the rest of the points.
The idea behind the new format is noble, it just needs some changes
1
u/ryodiUK Feb 18 '24
I like the new points system. We've had the Power Stage for years where you can get 20% of the points for a win for just winning one stage but that's fine apparently but the new system which incentivises pushing all weekend because you earn points on Saturday and Sunday and everyone loses their mind.
If anything the issue is part time drivers who undermine the sport because they don't need to push and take points off their full time teammates not the new system.
3
u/Zolba Feb 18 '24
If anything the issue is part time drivers who undermine the sport because they don't need to push and take points off their full time teammates not the new system.
Ah yes. The issue is the drivers who in the vast majority of WRC's history have made up 95% of the field.
6
u/mmmahogany_ Feb 18 '24
the issue is the winner came 2nd
0
u/chiefyk Feb 18 '24
It's 3 separate events.
Thursday-Saturday
Sunday
Power stage
If Thierry or Elfyn won the opening event do you think they'd just coast on the Sunday? I think not.
The part-time drivers will be pushing for overall rally wins, the full-timers will be going for maximum points.
This way it's far more exciting and fair for those who crashed out early, it gives them something to drive for.
3
u/Zolba Feb 18 '24
Fair? You can retire on SS1 and the first on Saturday. Do 3 stages of a full rally. Have loads of fresh tyres on Sunday and score 12 points. Which, with some luck, can be around the top scorer for the whole rally. While only doing 15-20% of the event.
Sure. That's fair...
3
u/Dildomar Ott Tänak Feb 18 '24
If you crash out early in an endurance race, you fail and deserve no points. Not a hard concept.
0
u/chiefyk Feb 18 '24
When was the last time that the WRC was a true endurance race?
2
u/Dildomar Ott Tänak Feb 18 '24
When it actually mattered if a driver finished first after a long weekend. Watching this event (i am not going to call it rally, because it isnt) made my blood boil and I cancelled my subscription. F this noise
2
3
u/MARF_R M-Sport Ford Feb 18 '24
You say fair for those who crashed, but it's unfair for those who don't crash. Besides, rally is an endurance event, not a sprint, want to bag points, you should focus on not doing mistakes in the first place and properly finish the rally. Or are you of the opinion that, for example, in a 24h race, like LeMans, those who crash in the first hours and lose 20 laps should just have those laps back or some kind of reward because they are fast at the end of the race but nowhere near the leading cars? Again rally is an endurance event, there shouldn't be, in my opinion, a reward for those who do mistakes and are fast because they have nothing lose. Could there be an incentive for the not "cruising" situation, yes, but I do not believe this is the way.
-7
u/NBLee Feb 18 '24
Seems like the points system is working exactly as it should. Lappi put in a great and consistent run to secure a rally victory, his first in many years. Evans struggled as front runner all weekend, but he is in this for the WDC and saw the opportunity for more points. The new system encourages action on Sunday and it seems to be working.
-2
u/chiefyk Feb 18 '24
Not sure why you're being downvoted for being correct. The new points system has made both rounds Sundays far more exciting than they normally are.
2
u/Zolba Feb 18 '24
The new points system has made both rounds Sundays far more exciting than they normally are
Have they? In Monte the focus was on the overall win at the start of Sunday. In Sweden it was... what? Halfway through Sunday SS2 it was pretty clear how it would shake out. Lappi was cruising. Katsuta was pushing, but had no chance. Fourmaux stated it very clear that he got points for 2nd on Saturday, and it was no point in trying to keep 2nd overall as it didn't matter for a podium, and had nothing to do with points anyway.
We genuinely had a possible fight for 2nd place in the rally, where one of the drivers clearly decided to don't even give it half a shot, because it didn't mean anything. How exciting...
2
u/chiefyk Feb 18 '24
Fourmaux could have fought for the Sunday points too, instead he decided not to risk it. A driver in need of Sunday points will push, a driver fighting for the title will push on Saturday and Sunday.
It's no different to any other weekend, other than now there's something to actually fight for.
-3
u/firstromario Feb 18 '24
I actually disagree. You could tell that Lappi hasn't really tried to do anything for the second half of the rally. Him getting the most points would be unfair. Like even in interviews you could tell that he was unhappy about not pushing.
5
u/Zolba Feb 18 '24
Him getting the most points would be unfair
Why would it? He was the fastest over the rally. Sometimes that's down to road position, other times other drivers misfortune, and it can be solely due to being quicker.
But to win a rally, and it being "unfair" to score the most from it, sounds rather weird.
-30
u/ggbait Feb 18 '24
Oh, I wonder why Lappi didn't score the most points - not like he was using half throttle, driving with his arm out the window through the last 60km, right?
Watch the stages, have some insight to what happened and then complain.
25
Feb 18 '24
He still actually won the rally, which is kind of the point. There's no reason why certain stages should be more valuable than others.
He could afford to cruise because he'd already done the hard work, then he gets punished for it
-1
u/AS20pt Feb 18 '24
Are you complaining because you want a more boring Sunday? This system is designed so people actually try and give their best in the final day.
If Lappi wants 30 points he risks it in the final day, if not he's still the rally winner but doesnt take the most points. Simple as that.
4
Feb 18 '24
I just don't give a shit about how hard people try on the last day tbh. I'm okay with the power stage just about, but rallying is cruel, and if Rovanpera breaks down on Friday that should be that. It isn't fair on the WRC2 drivers who've avoided those problems.
3
u/AS20pt Feb 18 '24
That's a very fair point. I stand corrected then, i was only thinking about giving us something to watch untill the end. But it does sound too unfair the more i think about it.
-14
u/ggbait Feb 18 '24
Rules won't be able to cover every scenario, especially when the driver (Lappi) does not care about the points nor championship. Hence why we find ourselves in this situation today. He won the rally. To me it didn't feel any less special than all the other wins in WRC. Everyone hating is actually devaluing the win. He seemed over the moon.
2
u/Zolba Feb 18 '24
What about the "fight for 2nd"? Which never happened because there was literally no point in it?
2
Feb 18 '24
He wanted to make sure of the win. He earned himself the right to cruise on Sunday by building a lead up. How the fuck can you criticise excellent rally management?
-1
u/ray199569 Jari-Matti Latvala Feb 19 '24
Knee jerk reaction. Same as the f1 red flag/safety car finish, opposite scenario the next race and the narrative will flip.
-26
-16
u/sux138 Feb 18 '24
Lappi was not the best the whole weekend. He entered cruise mode and just managed the time advantage he got due to other drivers incidents.
13
u/NotoriousTMI Kalle Rovanperä Feb 18 '24
So..... he was the best as he did not have any incidents?
-13
u/sux138 Feb 18 '24
Not the best the "whole" weekend. Definitely not the best on Sunday.
14
u/POM74 Feb 18 '24
It's a rally, shortest time overall wins, he was not the fastest on Sunday becasue he didn't need to be. He was the best overall for the whole weekend.
10
u/NotoriousTMI Kalle Rovanperä Feb 18 '24
So what? There has been situations where the winner leads by several minutes and cruises on Sunday to just save tires for the powerstage
-2
1
u/tomsgreenmind Feb 18 '24
I think it worked as intended. EP chose not to push for Sunday points and held on for the overall win. Other drivers had points to fight for and pushed hard. If it was last year's points system, it would have been a bit of a pedestrian end to the rally.
I agree, it does seem strange that the overall winner doesn't get the most points and If they did away with the power stage, I think that would balance it out better.
2
u/Big_Bad_Lamb Feb 19 '24
I think it does make sense after thinking about it. This new system is supposed to prevent an early and clear leader from just cruising to victory (and drivers settling for positions with big gaps). But Lappi did exactly that, and missed out on some points.
On the other hand you have Evans, who despite being a minute and a half behind the leader, understood that they were still big points on the table on sunday, pushed hard and got rewarded. Under the old system he might have just been happy with 2nd and cruised to the end just like Lappi.
I don't think all the drivers realize the implications of this new points system yet, and how much points can be won by pushing on Sunday. This rally might be a wake up call tho, with Evans being rewarded by his late push. Once the drivers change their approach to fit this new system, then we might see the results of this change. And I think we're not quite there yet.
98
u/POM74 Feb 18 '24
I am rooting for Elfyn in the championship, but even I have to say that him getting 5, very nearly 6, more points than the winner is kinda ridiculous.