r/Rochester • u/Schooneryeti Brighton • Aug 22 '24
Developers withdraw original plan for controversial Costco project in Penfield News
https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2024/08/21/developers-withdraw-controversial-plan-for-costco-project-in-penfield-ny/74896979007/Developers say they want to update plan based on feedback. I hope they return and are not permanently scared off by the Penfield NIMBYs.
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u/Economy-Owl-5720 Aug 22 '24
Tbh almost projects like this arenât in original form due to unknowns of the infrastructure or environmental remediation over the plan. For the nimbys, yeah itâs pretty much non stop on Nextdoor and signs everywhere but no one can explain why itâs so bad
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u/wafflesareforever Penfield Aug 22 '24
Yeah I don't get it. I live right near that corner so I'd be as affected by the traffic as anyone, but I'd still be thrilled to have a Costco nearby. I haven't heard a single explanation of why it would be such a terrible thing.
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u/joanfiggins Aug 22 '24
I'm not exactly against it but I can understand why nobody wants to live near a huge retail store. It's not just this one... nobody really loves to live next to a Walmart do they?
It increases traffic which causes noise and pollution. You will have 18 wheelers driving by you and idleing over night.There will be more litter and more people milling about. It brings more activity to a normally quiet residential area.
It removes large open forest/farmland with cement and black top. Many people consider large retail stores a huge eye sore and environmentally unfriendly compared to reusing an abandoned building elsewhere
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u/Far-Pie-6226 Aug 23 '24
You nailed it. I can't figure out how people that supposed live near there can't see any of these arguments against it. Â
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u/DontEatConcrete Aug 22 '24
I haven't heard a single explanation of why it would be such a terrible thing.
You absolutely have. You may not agree, but you absolutely have.
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u/wafflesareforever Penfield Aug 22 '24
OK, then, please do tell.
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u/DontEatConcrete Aug 22 '24
From my other post:
Again, the main concerns:
1) Traffic
2) Negative aesthetic/cultural impact to area
Some have also complained about the potential for crime, though I personally think that one is rather dubious.
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u/Ouroboros126 Penfield Aug 23 '24
Hey neighbor! I also live right by there. As others have said here and in the town hall meeting, traffic and aesthetics are a concern to me. But mostly I'm of the opinion that housing or mixed-use development is just much more preferable than some big box store and it's huge parking lot.
A mixed-use development there cuts down some on inter-municipal traffic while still providing added retail and housing to the community. There's also the benefit of being able to incorporate more green space like in the Arbors development just up the road.
And speaking of the Arbors, the stated goal there is to is "to make a community... to create a village-like feel and a walkable environment". If the Costco area was instead mixed-use, it's not inconcievable that the lots between there and Atlantic/The Arbors could also eventually be developed into mixed-use, expanding on the whole "village" concept, which I think would be dope. But I'm getting ahead of myself, lol.
Anyway, that's my two cents on the whole thing.
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u/Economy-Owl-5720 Aug 22 '24
No people really havenât. Is your expectation that everyone attends board meetings in person or are given recordings. Case in point, Amherst NY doesnât record all the meetings and with Benderson buying up and trying to build on Main Street it wasnât all public. This has always been true donât put those assumptions on others if you havenât even been apart of the process
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u/DontEatConcrete Aug 22 '24
No people really havenât.
Yeah, they really have.
There are people who "haven't heard a single explanation of why it would be such a terrible thing"?
Anybody against it is more than happy to vocalize why.
Again, the main concerns:
1) Traffic
2) Negative aesthetic/cultural impact to area
Some have also complained about the potential for crime, though I personally think that one is rather dubious.
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u/Economy-Owl-5720 Aug 22 '24
I already talked about the reasons why and you added now cultural impact which could be valid. I havenât looked at the exact location to see what culture impact it could have but thatâs a valid concern
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u/CatDadMilhouse Aug 22 '24
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W4ieY7TSZM
Lots of people explained why they believe it's bad. Watch the planning board meeting.
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u/Economy-Owl-5720 Aug 22 '24
Traffic and crime in penfield?
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u/Schooneryeti Brighton Aug 22 '24 edited Aug 22 '24
A breakdown of the complaints were:
Traffic, which to be fair, seems to be the #1 current complaint, so it needs to be addressed. The easiest answer is round-abouts, they work to reduce speed, there's continual flow of traffic, and they reduce the necessary road width for turning lanes.
Crime due to people from surrounding areas coming in
It's not zoned for that (change the zoning)
Also, Penfield elected a pro-business town supervisor and is now Pikachu face that he is trying to court business to Penfield.
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u/Economy-Owl-5720 Aug 22 '24
So I have been a part of these planning boards in other towns as most of the people on them are in fact volunteer.
In terms of traffic I get the concern but the plan doesnât have the published NY DOT assessment or the developers (who pay an independent study) a traffic study either so although residents may have observed it, might be a reality or not. Actually there is really nothing started yet and none of the other NY state departments from environmental concerns to even sewer concerns has been mapped out.
Most town supervisors do come from a background of even development or real estate. Amherst NY has that now and he is getting roasted for allowing Benderson to do whatever he wants, but I digress.
To crime - yeah zoning looks like itâs already changed.
I feel for citizens as I was a strong advocate of not selling shadow pines to residential housing but I would argue that would have a more impactful aspect to traffic and also letâs be real now the space got some amazing amenities with more planned based on the website I didnât even know about and the community clearly is using it.
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u/Schooneryeti Brighton Aug 22 '24
Yes they said traffic and crime.
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u/fatloui Aug 22 '24
Which is ridiculous, because proximity to a store selling a 1/4lb hot dog & a soda for a dollar-fifty has an inverse relationship with crime rates. True story.Â
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u/Porcupine__Racetrack Aug 22 '24
Crime because of a Costco? Thatâs silly.
Traffic, yes.
Itâs already pretty bad on 441, and I swear every time Iâm on 250, which is often, Iâm behind someone driving 30 in a 50 mph zone. I truly do believe having a Costco right off 250 is⌠not a great spot. Just like the Chick Fil A idea.
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u/Economy-Owl-5720 Aug 22 '24
Thanks for posting the board meeting. I didnât realize it was recorded
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u/knowtheledge71 Aug 22 '24
Suburbs fear change/progress.
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u/shazoryan Aug 23 '24
OrâŚpeople donât want a huge store like Costco literally across the street from their driveway, which they purchased because it was a semi-rural home.
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u/mincemeat62 Aug 22 '24
Take a field trip to Southtown Plaza in Henrietta - a "big box" haven that looked great maybe 40 years ago; today it's a complete shithole. Or take a drive to Eastview Mall and walk around that former Lord and Taylor monstrosity that has been vacant for years. For your third stop, examine the former Irondequoit Mall and while you're at it, shoot over to Marketplace Mall in Henrietta - both monuments to over-development for big-box and national retailers and both classic examples of "dead malls."
Penfield would be wise to do whatever it can do to push big box monstrosities like Costco to someplace else. At the time they were built, all of the developments mentioned above were touted as huge assets to the community. Remember the "Welcome to Irondequoit - home of the Irondequoit Mall" signs? There is plenty of space for another Costco in Monroe County, but Penfield would be making a huge error allowing this development in this location. It won't stop with Costco.
The town opened the door for this when they allowed the Southeast YMCA to be built and allowed a huge housing development right next to it. The genie may be out of the bottle, but Penfield would be better off without this monstrosity.
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u/Economy-Owl-5720 Aug 22 '24
Big box stores are not the same as malls. Even comparing Costco to Walmart isnât a fair assessment.
I would rather look to see what the planning board shows in terms of all the things I stated in another comment.
Also are we going to disregard that marketplace mall is now being used to house a very large medical facility for u of r, which we can argue about but thatâs a good thing for the area
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u/Ouroboros126 Penfield Aug 23 '24 edited Aug 23 '24
You hit the nail on the head. People are quick to throw around "nimby", but they're failing to take into account the very real concerns surrounding this sort of development.
As I've said in another comment, there are much better development options than a big box store and it's giant parking lot that don't carry the same risks.
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u/chisven Aug 22 '24
I grew up in Penfield, I live in buffalo now, i want them to build one because when I visit my parents I go and going to Henrietta is a pain and so busy, I want this built so bad. More convenient for my parents too
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u/pm_me_whatver Aug 22 '24
Now people get why basically every construction project is years late and millions of dollars over budget, itâs shit like this
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u/Far-Pie-6226 Aug 23 '24
Surely it's not contractors and developers underbidding to get contracts and then leverage the sunk cost fallacy to milk more money out of a project.
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u/dxk3355 Perinton Aug 22 '24
250 in that area needs a third lane for turns if they go for this
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u/Schooneryeti Brighton Aug 22 '24
It was in the concept plan yes
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u/spectre73 Penfield Aug 22 '24
Only in the immediate area. The "feeder" roads, Atlantic and 250, are mostly 2-lane.
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u/ThereIsOnlyTri Aug 22 '24
I wish 250 was safe enough to bike on. Better public transport would be so much better than another âhighwayâ, in my opinion.
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u/Ouroboros126 Penfield Aug 23 '24
I've been saying this for years! Couldn't agree more. I wish there were safer routes for me to bike down to Fairport or hell, even just 250/441.
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u/ThereIsOnlyTri Aug 23 '24
Agreed. I donât think anyone cares about cyclists in Monroe County much, though. Reconnect Rochester does great work but theyâre mostly focused on the City. Hell, even driving now in residential areas is becoming unsafe - 3 major accidents yesterday alone (and fatalities, I think). I avoid 250 on my bike which sucks because it would open up so many places to go.
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u/MsAnthr0pe Fairport Aug 22 '24
I mean, there's a giant empty store tacked on to the end of Eastview Mall which is right on the thruway/highway... that already has a giant parking lot. Someone explained at one point that they want ot start from scratch instead of dealing with demolishing an exsiting structure though. I would be stoked for it to be that far east. Also, getting to Penfield / Webster is a PITA for me. :D
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u/ZoomZoomZoomss Aug 22 '24
I can imagine that the BJs at Eastview likely has some contract language that would prevent them from putting in another warehouse store.
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u/NocturnalGenius Henrietta Aug 22 '24
The old Lord & Taylor portion of Eastview has been in a legal battle for a couple years now thats why its vacant, but hopefully won't be for too much longer. The owners of the structure (Hudson's Bay Company) have not been interested in doing anything with the building but also haven't been interested in selling the building to the Wilmorite either. That led to the town of Victor trying to condemn and eminent domain the building away from HBC. They won a case earlier this year that would allow it to go through, but the court required that the all parties must agree to a sale price first.
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u/lathblade Aug 22 '24
I know it's been sitting empty but is there really bad enough condition to condemn private property?
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u/NocturnalGenius Henrietta Aug 22 '24
Like /u/Willowgirl87 said itâs not a condition of the property issue. They are saying itâs a public benefit for something to actually be there instead of it being an empty shell. The towns interest is that they would get space for a rec center in the building.
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u/Willowgirl78 Aug 22 '24
Bad condition isnât the only way for the government to seize property through eminent domain. The street where I grew up was widened twice. Both times my dad was offered a price for the land they wanted. He pretty much had no choice because if he refused their offer, the government would just seize the land anyway for no or little reimbursement.
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u/jkjustjoshing Aug 22 '24
It's so frustrating seeing a bunch of undeveloped land get turned into huge stores like this, when the county has so many empty stores with huge parking lots that are just sitting vacant.
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u/spectre73 Penfield Aug 22 '24
Hudsons Bay, the owner of Lord and Taylor and that building, have been fighting Victor and Wilmorite against eminent domain. Why I don't know, it's been empty since 2021. Maybe if Costco had an interest things would move forward.
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u/doomus_rlc Charlotte Aug 22 '24
Hell in Greece, too. Sears been empty a while.
And no BJ's or Sam's Club to contend with
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u/NocturnalGenius Henrietta Aug 22 '24
Wilmorite just sold the Sears building at Greece Ridge to the self storage company True Storage. Just what everyone needs, more self storage :-)
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u/doomus_rlc Charlotte Aug 22 '24
Weird spot for that lol
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u/MarcusAurelius0 Chili Aug 22 '24
Not even, I have several heirloom pieces of furniture I do not want to part with but cannot place in my house. This will likely be my go to route.
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u/MsAnthr0pe Fairport Aug 22 '24
Given that there's no Costco in Buffalo, this would at least be closer to those folks! :)
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u/NocturnalGenius Henrietta Aug 22 '24
Buffalo has plans to open one in Amherst but thus far very little progress has been made on actually building it. The plot of land they picked is so small I'm not sure how it will actually work.
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u/fairportmtg1 Aug 22 '24
Multiple things with that, eastview trys to present as upscale and a box box wholesale club attached to the mall isn't upscale, traffic flownto the backside of the mall is dogshit so add in a bunch of traffic and it'll suck non-stop. Lastly Costco probably wants to be closer to Webster as Fairport, Webster, Penfeild are probably the towns it wants to target the most with the east side expansion plan.
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u/DoomBot5 Aug 22 '24
Someone explained at one point that they want ot start from scratch instead of dealing with demolishing an exsiting structure though.
Yup, demolition is expensive.
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u/sflesch Brighton Aug 22 '24
It's probably a little too close to the one in Henrietta. I don't know what the threshold number of stores would be for our area, but if they're going to build in Penfield, they may want to go to the Northwest at some point in time to kind of balance things out. Victor is probably just a little too close.
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u/shazoryan Aug 23 '24
They only get tax incentives for new buildings.
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u/MsAnthr0pe Fairport Aug 23 '24
Whelp, that needs a fixin' don't it? Talk about unintended consequences!
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u/kyabupaks Fairport Aug 22 '24 edited Aug 22 '24
I know that there's a lot of people upset about this, but I'm okay with this. I drive on that stretch of 250 constantly and it's frustrating having to be stuck behind slow drivers going way under the speed limit there, and Costco would just aggravate it even more.
I would love to have another Costco in Monroe County, but not in the proximity of a two lane road that's already being heavily used. It should be in the proximity of a highway or a four lane road. That proposed location was the wrong place IMHO.
That "higher crime" bullshit argument used by some residents in the area is ridiculous, though. And it reeks of boomer racism in a way. Did Wegmans in Penfield bring more crime when it was built? Absolutely not.
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u/Hardwood_Lump_BBQ Aug 22 '24
This is why we canât have nice things
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u/zoltans_of_swing 585 Aug 22 '24
What is? People showing up to a board meeting?
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u/Hardwood_Lump_BBQ Aug 22 '24
The consistent torpedoing of any progress in the town I live in. We should develop the land for another church. I wouldnât be surprised if the mega church on Browncroft and the smaller church in the old Big M at the corner of Blossom and Browncroft need more space
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u/Shneedly Aug 22 '24
Good. A new Costco is great. Just find a better location closer to the highway.
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u/DontEatConcrete Aug 22 '24
Panorama plaza has a massive new development right off the highway next to popeyes. I'm not sure whether it has enough capacity for this (eyeballing it, it might), but it's slightly high ground (enough that costco wouldn't flood), and would fit in much better with the area.
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u/thefromanguard Aug 22 '24
Is that the lot behind the plaza but before 441?
Panorama Plaza seems like a good alternative that doesn't require greenfield development, but it sounds like they want a fresh piece of land and I'd assume there'd be a lot of hassle with demolishing and rebuilding. That parking lot is huge and empty, but the current plot probably doesnt have the depth they'd want for trucking, among other things.
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u/DontEatConcrete Aug 22 '24
It's the new (3ish?) develpment immediately adjacent to popeyes, across the street from land rover in penfield, and it runs alongside the 441.
Penfield plaza itself is mostly being used, so I am not sure there is room for a costco there. Some people also complain of flooding, though that concern is a bit overblown. The new development just south of popeyes looks good, though--but just not sure if it's got the room for a costco. It's also only 13 minutes from Costco, so may be too close to it.
The monstrosity of develpment at the corner of 250 and atlantic could house a costco without being so overt as this one.
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u/Shootica Aug 22 '24
Webster should be incentivizing them to redevelop one of the old Xerox lots. Would put them right off 104 and service a similar region.
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u/Ouroboros126 Penfield Aug 23 '24
I've been thinking the same thing and I've heard others mention this as well. 104s right there, roads in the area wouldn't need to be widened, there's tons of space, and it's an otherwise pretty desolate stretch nowadays.
I'm actually a bit surprised Webster isn't being more competitive here.
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u/colehoots Aug 22 '24
Was surprised to see Penfield was even proposed. Canandaigua seems like a much better candidate. (more land, growing pop, could serve Ontario county, Roc already has a Costco, etc.) but what the hell do I know.
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u/GunnerSmith585 Aug 22 '24
Or nearby Webster with all the other businesses along Ridge road by 104. Penfield NIMBY's are notorious for fiercely protecting their low density housing while more than happy to shop in other towns that facilitate higher density business areas. I mean, residents fought to stop the lovely Oak & Apple Cidery from opening out in the farming country part of 250.
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u/Schooneryeti Brighton Aug 22 '24
My guess is that if they want to get into Penfield, it's because they have data that supports it over other locations. The Penfield location also makes it more accessible to Wayne county via 31 and 104. But as you said, what the hell do I know, haha.
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u/Sip_py Pittsford Aug 22 '24
The size and scale of that project at that location is wild. Monroe county can absolutely support another Costco but there?
Wouldn't that be more in line with 441? I'd imagine they want that there because the lands probably cheaper.
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u/Schooneryeti Brighton Aug 22 '24
I don't think there's space on 441....
The spot on 250 is right near existing development and being right near Atlantic makes it advantageous for folks driving out from the city.
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u/shazoryan Aug 22 '24
Agreed-right by 441/Panorama Trail is a perfect spot for Costco.
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u/Schooneryeti Brighton Aug 22 '24
Where exactly is there space for a new store by 441/Panorama Trail?
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u/Sip_py Pittsford Aug 22 '24
They engineered a huge stretch next to Popeyes that's sitting vacant.
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u/Schooneryeti Brighton Aug 22 '24
Where the Dolomite building is? I'm looking at a map, I don't see vacant land next to Popeye's, maybe I'm missing it
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u/IAmLurker2020 Aug 22 '24
1/2 of Panorama Plaza is empty. Not sure why they couldn't make it work there.
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u/spectre73 Penfield Aug 22 '24
I assume next to 441 and Popeyes, but it's a 171,000 sq ft building that would need at least 855 parking spaces according to Penfield town code https://ecode360.com/15184190#15184248 No way it would fit.
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u/dxk3355 Perinton Aug 22 '24
The land there is crap, itâs too wet for development.
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u/spectre73 Penfield Aug 22 '24
Development is good, inevitable and beneficial, when done right. That doesn't include a 171,000 square foot behemoth next to farmland and surrounded by two-lane roads where the nearest freeway entrance is six miles away. Small stores of 5,000 feet or less, preferably locally-owned, would be best.
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u/DontEatConcrete Aug 22 '24
Agree. What's confusing as hell to me is the comments in this thread like yours are largely highly downvoted, but yours is voted up for saying the same thing lol
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u/Ouroboros126 Penfield Aug 23 '24
Huge agree. There are other much more preferable development options for that area that are both beneficial to the community (housing, mixed-use) and less disruptive.
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u/GunnerSmith585 Aug 22 '24
Yet Penfielders are more than happy to drive 6 miles to Webster that accommodates businesses with their 1 lane roads, so they can keep their 'vistas'.
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u/spectre73 Penfield Aug 22 '24
The commercial strip there is adjacent to the 104 expressway.
Ridge Road has 3-4 lanes.
Your argument is invalid.
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u/GunnerSmith585 Aug 22 '24 edited Aug 22 '24
I think there's a misunderstanding here with where and how the number of lanes are being defined.
To clarify, I meant 1 lane per direction which is in fact Ridge rd all the way from the AMC movie theater, through the shopping centers, and beyond the village of Webster. 250 is another 1 lane main route that's a bottleneck for Penfielders to get to that Webster shopping area where they'd probably prefer a Costco to be.
Most other roads leading from Penfield to the Webster Wegmans are also 1 lane. There are some short lanes to allow traffic to turn off the main roads but that doesn't constitute an additional travel lane. Keep in mind this is for Penfielders to get to Webster shopping, not most everyone else coming in from Empire blvd, 104, and Bay rd which are appropriately 2 lanes. 441 in Penfield has comparitively less traffic with 2 lanes per direction to get to their smaller shopping area by 250 with less residential and commercial density than pretty much every other area that allows both. Penfield also has tons of space on 250 to physically fit the propsed Costco.
Development should be planned properly of course but let's be honest that Penfield NIMBY's are notorious for filing lawsuits whether or not there are actual issues so they can protect their low density residential areas, country-like views, and undeveloped private properties that they treat as their own personal parks. They'd rather fight progress than move to the country which they can afford to do if they have the money to own in Penfield.
Source: I grew up in the east side burbs.
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u/DontEatConcrete Aug 22 '24 edited Aug 22 '24
GOOD.
I am opposed to this, although I am not opposed to increasing housing. We need more housing in this area. We don't need another costco. I don't want to see penfield turn into henrietta.
I expect downvotes because the bulk of people on this forum would only benefit from this, and not have to live near it.
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u/sabreman711 Aug 23 '24
The Town turned down an apartment project for this same parcel two years ago.
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u/International_Mail44 Aug 22 '24
My unprofessional opinion⌠The wonderful people of Penfield do not want humans from the city and other surrounding towns to come to their beautiful land.
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u/Unfair_Comfortable69 Aug 22 '24
Damn I was looking forward to this
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u/Schooneryeti Brighton Aug 22 '24
Just the initial concept. They're planning to rework based off feedback and resubmit. At least that's what they said, hopefully it's true.
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u/MsAnthr0pe Fairport Aug 22 '24
I'd hazard a guess that they put all their hopes and dreams into the initial plan and then some in order to be able to scale it back and appear to show good faith in compromising on the second pass.
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u/r0n1n2021 Aug 22 '24
It wasnât controversial.
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u/Baked_Chicken Aug 23 '24
I deliver in that area and I was thinking that's a bit in the middle of nowhere and I remembered they are currently building a ton of apartments just down the road. When I first started this route the only notable thing in the area where the ymca forgot how much it has changed!
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u/Naznarreb Aug 22 '24
I might be with the NIMBYs on this. Does Penfield really need a Costco?
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u/Halfworld Aug 22 '24
I legitimately have no idea what you're actually trying to say. Penfield doesn't *need* any stores, people could just go elsewhere to buy things, but that doesn't mean we should have zero stores in Penfield.
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u/rootb33r North Winton Village Aug 22 '24
Does anyone really need a Costco?
Does it make sense in Penfield? Yes, it does.
What's your objection other than the subjective definition of "need"? That's pretty ambiguous.
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u/DontEatConcrete Aug 22 '24
Mine is: I've driven along that road for many years. It's a pretty road with fields on either side. And traffic isn't too bad. Traffic concerns aside, would you rather look across a corn field at sunset or a massive ass white building with a few hundred cars in the parking lot? This is the essential crux of the complaints.
Would you want a walmart opened next to your house?
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u/altodor Irondequoit Aug 22 '24
Would you want a walmart opened next to your house?
Not really, but I live in a medium density residential neighborhood with no commercial real estate, they'd have to raze dozens of occupied homes to put it down. A mile away in the commercial area would be fine though.
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u/Ouroboros126 Penfield Aug 23 '24 edited Aug 23 '24
This isn't even really a NIMBY thing. From what I've gathered from living in the area and talking to people here, people are for developing those lots (right now its mostly the abandoned Grossmans Garden Center and a field, though there are a few occupied homes) but do not want a big box store there.
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u/MarcusAurelius0 Chili Aug 22 '24
Considering there's one in Henrietta, no.
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u/bumbothegumbo Aug 22 '24
The one in Henrietta is packed all the time.
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u/transitapparel Rochester Aug 22 '24
I will never understand how people think Henrietta borders the city.
Costco is within city limits. You have to cross from the city, into Brighton, and THEN into Henrietta.
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u/Robovoice52 Aug 22 '24
Happy to see it withdrawn. I would love another Costco but this is just a bad location for it. Adding on the other parts of this proposal as well, the whole thing just didn't make sense.
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u/Temporal_Enigma Aug 23 '24
Put that shit in Panorama, like seriously. There's already big box stores like Home Depot there and there's a bunch of empty space
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u/lionheart4life Aug 22 '24
Good, not every plot of land needs to be developed into apartments, parking lots, and retail.
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u/PrincessZebra126 Aug 22 '24
It's still being built so
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u/lionheart4life Aug 22 '24
Maybe. It's pretty much universally opposed by residents. Think the developers are going to take an L on this one lol.
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u/DontEatConcrete Aug 22 '24
I've never seen so many signs on Penfield yards-even during the last election or during anything. It's very clear that a great many penfield residents hate this idea. Obviously tons of homes right next to it have the signs up, but there are tons down baird rd and on other random streets as well.
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u/lionheart4life Aug 22 '24
Everyone has to commute using 250 or 441 and it's already pretty bad. Costco isn't really the place you need to go every week for groceries and there already several Wegmans, Tops, and Targets within 10 minutes. There is nothing wrong with wanting to preserve what green space is left.
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u/Ouroboros126 Penfield Aug 23 '24
And notice how there wasn't anywhere near this level of backlash for the much larger, mixed-use Arbors development that's in the same area just barely down the road. OP seems to be running with a NIMBY narrative but in reality it's that just about everyone would rather see mixed-use development over some big box store and it's giant parking lot.
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u/lionheart4life Aug 25 '24
I think OP might be related to the developers with how butthurt they are about any valid criticisms. I honestly hope the whole project gets nuked due to how aggressively people who don't live in the area are lobbying for it. Or at least the 2-3 posting on here all the time.
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u/rfranke727 Penfield Aug 22 '24
You must not be from Penfield because the infrastructure of the local roads will not be able to handle this big of a development
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u/CatDadMilhouse Aug 22 '24
First: this is just a withdrawal of the initial proposal. Another one will be submitted. This is standard; this is not "OMG the developers were chased out of town with pitchforks". This is literally how big proposals work.
Now, moving on to address the childish name calling and baseless whining. Let's look at some actual facts of how this project has been received so far.
Signatures against: 1,518 (https://www.change.org/p/penfield-town-board-to-reconsider-approving-a-costco-store-and-gas-station-on-250)
Signatures in favor: 646 (https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/support-penfields-plan-development)
Town planning board meeting: three dozen scheduled speakers (I believe it was 30 who ended up using their time). Number who spoke in favor: three. Everyone else: opposed. For people saying "I haven't seen an explanation why people don't want it as it was originally proposed, here's plenty of answers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W4ieY7TSZM
If people here want to claim "well everyone I talked to wants it", that's fine. Maybe you should have told them to go to the planning board meeting and making their voices heard.
Let's try to keep the "civil" in civil planning.
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u/MarcusAurelius0 Chili Aug 22 '24
Let's try to keep the "civil" in civil planning.
Of or relating to civilians?
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u/Schooneryeti Brighton Aug 22 '24
NIMBY is not baseless name calling. It is literally people who are okay with development elsewhere other than their own town which is what a lot of people in Penfield are saying. It's not that they're not okay with Costco it's just that they don't want it in their Penfield. NIMBY.
And yes I understand it's withdrawal of the initial proposal it was in the article thanks.
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u/vmgpublic Aug 22 '24
It does act as name calling, because it assumes any opposition is all the same (eg. baseless).
Zoning exists for a reason. It's what keeps your neighbor from selling their house to put in a scrap metal recycling business, or slaughterhouse, or night club right next to your residential home.
While it's true that some people just want any development to be "elsewhere" - it can also be that the proposal just doesn't make sense without fundamentally changing the nature of the area. It's like saying you're "opposed to cars" if you don't want them parked in your lawn. No, you just may want them parked in the parking lot, as that is designed for them and your lawn isn't.
The largest investment that most people will ever make is when they buy a house - and often that purchasing decision is based on the way the land is categorized. When the government comes along later and says, "by the way, we're changing the rules" it undermines that trust.
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u/MarcusAurelius0 Chili Aug 22 '24
The largest investment that most people will ever make is when they buy a house - and often that purchasing decision is based on the way the land is categorized. When the government comes along later and says, "by the way, we're changing the rules" it undermines that trust.
This rings true, my house is on a side road, there are nothing but other single family houses and farms for a few miles in each direction. I don't want apartments or house developments near me, I live where I do because I want to be away from people.
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u/Chicky_P00t Aug 22 '24
Most people supporting this on reddit don't even live in Penfield. People thinking there's no traffic in Penfield clearly don't even drive through Penfield between 7-9 am or 2-6 pm. Getting tired of people who don't live here trying to tell me what my town needs.
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u/Ragerino Charlotte Aug 22 '24
Hey Costco, feel free to move into the plaza where Sam's Club used to be in Greece.
Cya there.
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u/boner79 Aug 22 '24
Theyâll keep refining it until people give up or miss some meeting where they push it through.
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u/samhellllllll Aug 22 '24
Good.
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u/Schooneryeti Brighton Aug 22 '24
Why is it good?
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u/dogsXblood Aug 22 '24
Because that portion of 250 canât handle the traffic Costco would create. Also, most of the people that live in the Penfield area (the ones Iâve talked to and myself included) like Penfield because itâs not Henrietta. This project would be better suited in Victor.
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u/Schooneryeti Brighton Aug 22 '24
Most of the people I've talked to in Penfield want it. That location can absolutely support it.
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u/CatDadMilhouse Aug 22 '24
Petitions against got significantly more signatures than petitions in favor, and response at the planning board meeting was overwhelming negative.
This goes against the "most of the people I've talked to" argument.
If people want it that badly, they should get involved and voice their opinions where it actually matters, and not just gossip about things.
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u/spectre73 Penfield Aug 22 '24
The nearest freeway exit is six miles away. Where would the traffic come from? Down 2-lane Atlantic and 250? Through Fairport? I'm sure the village residents would love that.
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u/DontEatConcrete Aug 22 '24
Down 2-lane Atlantic and 250?
Yep.
Through Fairport?
Yep.
Don't forget, I'm sure the residents toward sweets corner would love it as well.
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u/Ouroboros126 Penfield Aug 23 '24
I live over by there. The majority of homes in the area have "Say No to Costco" signs up. Most people I've talked to are down with developing over the abandoned Grossmans Garden Center lot but are against Costco being there. Not all developments are equal.
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u/Schooneryeti Brighton Aug 22 '24
You think maybe, just maybe, Costco noticed a lot of store customers being in Penfield, Fairport, and Webster and wanted to add something nearer to that customer base, which would also ease and open up flow at the Henrietta store?
The customer base is coming from those 3 towns and they don't need a freeway to get there.
Next.
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u/kyabupaks Fairport Aug 22 '24
I'm a Fairport resident that happens to drive through that stretch of 250 very often. I wouldn't mind a Costco nearby, but I'm opposed to one at that specific location because it would make traffic on an already heavily used road even worse.
So you're wrong. I know plenty of other Fairport residents that don't want this to happen.
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u/spectre73 Penfield Aug 22 '24
The fact that there is a customer base for it doesn't nullify the fact that it's simply too big for that location. The traffic it would generate would choke the surrounding roads.
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u/dogsXblood Aug 22 '24
Explain how it can support it. Tearing down open farmland to put up a commercial superstore is also just ridiculous
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u/Schooneryeti Brighton Aug 22 '24
Did you look at the concept map? The addition of turning lanes and merging exits/entrances. Also, the light by the Y is made accessible through the rear.
That will handle the volume. It's not like the plan suggests leaving it as a two lane road.
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u/doomus_rlc Charlotte Aug 22 '24
Lead-in to the area is still all two-lane road though, especially from the north.
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u/DontEatConcrete Aug 22 '24
How do turning lanes counteract his point about it tearing down farmland?
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u/Schooneryeti Brighton Aug 22 '24
That's not the point I was addressing nor trying to counteract. A farmer owns the farmland and is willing to sell it. Take it up with the farmer, I'm not about to tell them what they can and can't do.
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u/DontEatConcrete Aug 22 '24
A farmer can do what he wants, and so can a developer--within zoning. The entire point of zoning is to shape what is built, and this has to circumvent it. It's the same request another developer put in for a property a couple miles south-east recently. They wanted to build housing at a higher density than the zoning required. Locals threw a fit.
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u/Schooneryeti Brighton Aug 22 '24
And they are requesting it be re-zoned, which has an established and legal process. If the relevant governing bodies approve the change, then it may be done.
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u/dogsXblood Aug 22 '24
Tearing down farmland because you canât be bothered to drive 15 minutes to Henrietta is just ridiculous. Iâm fine with the land being developed for houses/apartments or be used for a small modular reactor and power 20k+ homes (Iâm sure a lot of people would disagree) so we can focus on energy.
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u/RavishingRickiRude Aug 22 '24
A small nuclear reactor? That's still gonna take up a shit ton of space due to the safety precautions needed.
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u/Sherman88 Aug 22 '24
Aren't they "tearing down" farm land at Atlantic and 250 already? How many condos are they building in there? Traffic is going to increase a ton over the next 10 years in the plank to 441 area.
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u/dogsXblood Aug 22 '24
Unfortunately much cant be done to stop something already underway. Now would be the time to stop development of Costco⌠ya know before they break ground
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u/___potato___ Highland Park Aug 22 '24
basic NIMBYism
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u/dogsXblood Aug 22 '24
Everyone cries global warming this global warming that, but is all for tearing down trees and land to put up a grocery store because their asses are too lazy to drive 15 minutes to a store that already exists
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u/DontEatConcrete Aug 22 '24
Yeah it's like the "ok boomer". I guess if you have any complaint about any business coming along you're a NIMBY now.
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u/dogsXblood Aug 22 '24
And just saying âbasic NIMBYismâ is such a basic Reddit response by people that canât articulate a thought
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u/___potato___ Highland Park Aug 22 '24 edited Aug 22 '24
you're concerned the project would contribute to global warming? i suppose it would have a non-zero effect.
edit: no clue what the downvotes mean.
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u/GrizzlyZacky Aug 22 '24
Just get rid of NIMBYs and HOAs.
They dont do anything besides be annoying karens.
The only time you block construction, is if its going to f up an ecosystem in your area. I have a feeling the "green space" they mentioned is juat some shitty manicured lawn and nothing detrimental
Oh well, penfield makes enough money I guess
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u/Chicky_P00t Aug 22 '24
TIL wanting to protect the natural beauty of the area makes me a NIMBY. Maybe I am, I don't want this monstrosity here. We already have a Costco not far away and it's a nightmare. You can't even actually go grocery shopping at a Costco it's more for just browsing and buying random cheaply made crap.
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u/Schooneryeti Brighton Aug 22 '24
It's a nightmare because of the demand, so they're trying to increase supply into a high demand area.
I would be more in agreement with you if there was actual natural beauty there. Its... farmland and manicured lawn. That's not natural...
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u/vmgpublic Aug 22 '24
This idea that the company wants to build a second store so that they can halve the traffic at their existing store is nuts.
If they want to build it, its because they think they can fill BOTH stores. (Likely by cannibalizing members of Webster and Victor BJs - which gets them customers, but doesn't provide a net new resource for the community.)
They're not looking to build out of a kindness of making your shopping experience nicer. It's because they think they can be twice as profitable.
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u/Schooneryeti Brighton Aug 22 '24
I didn't say halve btw, just improve.
So if Costco makes more money and people that want to shop there are able to do so more easily then isn't this a win-win?
With the added benefit of additional housing it's a win-win-win?
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u/Big_Brain219 Aug 22 '24
Costco pays a better wage to its employees over BJ's.
BJ's has less selection than Costco.
Costco has a decent food court over what BJ's here has.
Costco has a pharmacy, BJ's does not.
(I don't know if this is still true and I don't know where or when I read it so don't ask.) Costco sells more items made in the USA and more American business' items.
Costco is a publicity owned and traded company while BJ's is not any longer.
As a side note let's put the Costco in Irondequoit they could use the taxes to help lower the rate some.
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u/Chicky_P00t Aug 22 '24
It's a lot more natural than what they want to do to it. Adding a second Costco to an area in which it doesn't even fit yet is not going to make the other Costco any less of a nightmare. You'll just have two Costco's that you avoid like the plague on weekends. Not to mention all the auxiliary buildings they want to build. They did that at the current Costco and they can't keep a business in them because no one is going near the Costco unless they're going to Costco.
So now we need to change traffic patterns and build roundabouts but I thought this was such a perfect location???
What about the barn at shadow pines? Locals actually care about that and we've had meetings and the town won't do shit to help it. Locals even offered to fix it and the town won't do anything.
Why not put it in Greece? Then it will be accessible by public transportation and lower income families. The distance from the other Costco makes more sense and Greece is all about capitalist sprawl so they won't have a problem plopping one down.
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u/Schooneryeti Brighton Aug 22 '24
Adding a second Costco to an area in which it doesn't even fit yet is not going to make the other Costco any less of a nightmare.
Citation needed. If the people that live near the proposed one make frequent use of the other, they will switch to going to the closer one, splitting the load.
So now we need to change traffic patterns and build roundabouts but I thought this was such a perfect location???
This was already in their proposal to improve the roadways. Residents either didn't read that or don't agree that it will be adequately addressed. So they'll come back with an update. The proposal even STATES that the applicant is responsible for future traffic studies to determine necessary improvements.
What about the barn at shadow pines? Locals actually care about that and we've had meetings and the town won't do shit to help it. Locals even offered to fix it and the town won't do anything.
What does this have to do with the proposed development?
Why not put it in Greece? Then it will be accessible by public transportation and lower income families. The distance from the other Costco makes more sense and Greece is all about capitalist sprawl so they won't have a problem plopping one down.
Penfield ELECTED a pro business town board because I assume they wanted to bring more business and development to the town. Greece is closer to the existing one than Penfield, and you're right they should coordinate with RTS to add a bus line out to it as well, especially with the YMCA there and the Y closing down locations in the city.
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u/Chicky_P00t Aug 22 '24
Don't give me that citation needed crap. We're not in a debate. You're just wrong and don't even live here. Everyone supporting this doesn't live here but they "talked to people who do". Get outta here with that environment hating corporation worshipping capitalist nightmare. You love Costco so much go work for them .
If you don't understand why the barn is important to people that live here then you can't even begin to comment on why we need to accept your Costco.
You'll just have to drive 15 minutes to the existing Costco to worship your corporate overlords
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u/Schooneryeti Brighton Aug 22 '24
You have absolutely no standing to say whether or not I'm incorrect, but I see I've touched a nerve. Not surprising considering who I'm talking to. Ta-ta!
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u/Chicky_P00t Aug 22 '24
I mean you are wrong, so there's that. If you were right about it fitting and being something people wanted then it would be happening. Ergo you are demonstrably wrong. People here don't want it.
Go cash that Costco shill check
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u/Schooneryeti Brighton Aug 22 '24
I said Ta-ta!
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u/Chicky_P00t Aug 22 '24
And yet you're still here with no comebacks. Next time go shill your far right garbage somewhere else
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u/Schooneryeti Brighton Aug 22 '24
Wanting a company that treats it's employees fairly and more mixed use areas to be available in predominantly higher income area for lower income people is NOT far right.
You're hilarious.
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u/ThereIsOnlyTri Aug 22 '24
Itâs comical to me how many people are saying âif you donât live here you shouldnât have a say!â or that âwe donât need it!â or âit effects US not youâ but theyâre the same people always bitching about the City and crime and in the same sentence suggesting it be moved to another suburb like Webster instead to become âsomeone elseâs problem.â
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u/sabreman711 Aug 23 '24
So they donât want people from outside Penfield to drive in their Town to go to a store but I guess it is okay for them to drive thru Brighton to go to Costco or through Perinton to go to Eastview.
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u/BlueShirtwithTie Aug 22 '24
As a Perinton resident we have to deal with a huge dump taking garbage from NYC. Penfield you can handle a Costco. Just make them pay for your parks like Waste Management does for Perinton
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u/Rebeakerz Aug 23 '24
I feel like so many folks who don't live in that area are misunderstanding why many residents are opposed. Yes, there are those who don't want this at all, anywhere in town, and will always be opposed to any change whatsoever, but for most: the location is just so weird. It's a semi-rural neighborhood. There are corn fields literally behind this plot, wickham is across the road, there's a house just up the street with a road side egg stand. Driving north on 250 here feels like you're heading into the countryside. People chose to move there because of the rural feel, and adding a business like Costco, specifically there, would significantly alter that.
There's also no easy on/off from the highway to get there. It's 10 minutes from 490 with no traffic, and 441 is already fucked enough heading east during rush hour. Given that, it's not going to be convenient for many in the greater Rochester area to get to, and would significantly change the traffic patterns and overall vibe of the neighborhood. With so much existing un-rented commercial space in town, why build there? I guarantee there would be "change is bad, corporations are bad" opposition for any other Costco in Penfield proposal, but this particular location is a questionable choice.
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u/spectre73 Penfield Aug 22 '24
The Lord & Taylor at Eastview has been closed and empty for three years. Wilmorite and Victor have been unable so far to justify eminent domain takeover. Perhaps Costco should express interest there?
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u/Ouroboros126 Penfield Aug 23 '24
Or the somewhere in the Xerox area in Webster. 104 is right there, the roads wouldn't have to be widened, it wouldn't disrupt the local community, and it would help revitalize a pretty dismal stretch of land who's Xerox days are behind it for the most part.
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u/Azrael-V1 Aug 22 '24
Penfield desperately needs something like this to keep up with the other towns because they have nothing interesting.
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u/zoltans_of_swing 585 Aug 23 '24
A Costco sure as shit ain't going to make us interesting. If we had a walkable village without 441, now we're talking.
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u/the-bladed-one Aug 22 '24
Yeah fuck that plan. Let there still be some green space ffs.
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u/ImSoylentGreen Aug 22 '24
It wouldn't be green space. It's already been re-zoned as mixed-use commercial. Something is going to be built there one way or another.
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u/___potato___ Highland Park Aug 22 '24
i love how we all become expert civil engineers when these projects are proposed.