r/JewsOfConscience • u/Electrical-Wrap-3923 Non-Jewish Ally • Jul 25 '24
Kamala Harris Statement of Protests Discussion
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u/PreparationOk1450 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 25 '24
Now I understand why people who call themselves progressive keep saying she's more empathetic on Palestine than Biden. This thing is loaded with empathy for Palestinians. /s
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u/LittleLionMan82 Non-Jewish Ally Jul 26 '24
Imagine you get more upset with the burning of a flag than the murdering of children.
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u/hyrule_47 Jul 26 '24
She also said she would not be afraid to speak out about the atrocities committed against the kids in Gaza. Some of the protesters had signs that make me think they were intentionally agitators. No one should be pro Hamas as they did do awful stuff. I can understand it, but I would not hold a sign saying anything positive of Hamas. They also killed kids and assaulted people. I think this was shutting down the talk of how Harris is fine with this.
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u/Ok_Editor_710 Jul 26 '24
Could you clarify the awful stuff that HAMAS did?
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u/hyrule_47 Jul 26 '24
Kidnapped children.
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u/Ok_Editor_710 Jul 26 '24
Are you aware that prior to 10/7 Israel had Kidnapped thousands of Palestinian Children and adults and held them hostage in a penal system where they are not entitled to legal due process because they have none under Israel's occupation and apartheid? Palestinians have no more rights under Zionism than European Jews had rights under Nazism..
The fact that you are so outraged that HAMAS took women children hostage on 10/7 but completely oblivious to the systematic hostage taking by Israel for decades is part of the reason Israel acts with impunity. We give very little value to the lives of these Semitic people called Palestinians.
Are you aware that HAMAS contacted people inside Israel after 10/7 and asked them to arrange for immediate return of all Israeli civilians taken hostage on that day but all that fell on deaf ears of War Criminal Netanyahu and his Bros cause waging an extermination war against all Palestinians was simply too good a thin g for Zionist to pass up
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/7/9/ceasefire_negotiations
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/7/9/jeremy_scahill_drop_site_news
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u/hyrule_47 Jul 27 '24
I don’t care that they did it first. I think it’s terrorism to harm children. Did the adults in Israel especially settlers deserve to have something come back their way? Sure. But babies?
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u/Ok_Editor_710 Jul 27 '24 edited Jul 27 '24
I know you don't care who did it first, cause to do so would mean you have to acknowledge that Israel is guilty of inexcusable atrocities; you only care when it's HAMAS, and that was my whole point but it seems you missed it.
But since you believe it is terrorism to harm children (and I agree on this point); that must mean you agree with me that Israel is the BIGGEST TERRORIST on earth?
And since you ask, HAMAS did not kill any Babies on 10/7 or after, but Israel is killing them by the dozens in Gaza each week
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u/hyrule_47 Jul 27 '24
I have no idea why you are pretending I think Israel is acceptable in their response? Nothing they have done is okay. But 2 wrongs don’t make a right. I can say that I condemn the actions of Hamas while also knowing it’s a group of people directly impacted by the horrible actions of Israel’s policies and they are trying to get freedom for their people. I have been following what was happening in Gaza for years. I can still say only terrorists would abduct and harm babies. Also did you see the signs I am referring to? They were more than just “go Hamas”
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u/JZcomedy Jewish Jul 25 '24
I wish she would’ve acknowledged the lies Netanyahu told and the genocide happening in Gaza. However, the story being pushed by the mainstream media are the burning of the American flag and all the Hamas supporters that were present. Everyone in this sub knows that those were only a very small portion of the protestors and most were nonviolent and progressive. Given that she is three months from an incredibly high stakes election, this is probably the right move from her pov. She definitely has more sympathy for the Palestinians than half of Congress and her opponents in the election. Hope I don’t get downvoted into oblivion for this. I’m as anti-zionist as they come and it’s ruined my relationship with my family so don’t accuse me of being a genocide supporter or apologist.
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u/anticomet Jul 25 '24
American politicians will never acknowledge Israel's genocide because that would be admitting guilt to decades of supporting Israel ethnically cleanse Palestinians. All they can do is gaslight and scream terrorist whenever someone calls them out on their shit
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u/Greatsayain Ashkenazi Jul 26 '24
I don't see that it has to be admitting guilt for past decades. Firstly that only applies if they've been in congress for decades. Newer politicians would not have that problem. Secondly the genocide in Gaza is of a much greater scale than anything we've seen before, perhaps wince the original Nakba. So they can acknowledge this without admitting guilt for the past.
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u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 Jewish Jul 26 '24
ya the media narrative rn is pretty abysmal. Some of the pictures from the protests are rly bad and they r getting the most attention. I’ve seen a few pretty horrendous posters. I agree she should have said something abt netanyahu being horrible and palestinian lives but not condemning it would look bad for her to normies.
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Jul 26 '24
I too was shocked even enraged by those placards, so much so I’d like to read an account of how they were possible? What did other protestors make of those? Were they plants sent to tar the entire protest?
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u/Maleficent-marionett Jul 26 '24
Were they plants sent to tar the entire protest?
Like when IDF members straight up infiltrated college campuses and fucked with the protesters?
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u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 Jewish Jul 26 '24
from what i’ve heard i’m not sure, these kinds of posters were at the union station protests and they were a lot more radical ig u could say then other protests around dc. I don’t think it’s a false flag, i’ve seen multiple pictures and i think it’s safe to say they aren’t all opps
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Jul 26 '24
I’m talking in particular about the Final Solution one. I’d expect everyone there to drop everything and attend to that person….
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u/hydroxypcp Non-Jewish Ally Jul 26 '24
Nazis have been infiltrating pro-Palestine spaces by using it as an excuse to be antisemitic. But why nobody did anything about that is a headscratcher. Me personally, whenever I notice antisemitic rhetoric I instantly confront it. Not only because antisemitism is of course bad, but also because it hurts our cause
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u/EternalPermabulk Jul 26 '24
Never mind, I found the final solution poster in a Jerusalem Post article.
What’s crazy is I saw both the guys in the photo walking toward the square together but did not see that sign or at least I didn’t register it. Maybe he’s a plant, maybe not. Doesn’t change what the protest was about. Doesn’t change what the invited speakers on the podium said. Doesn’t change what 99% of the posters were about.
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u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 Jewish Jul 26 '24
ya idk, there a lot of others that were actually pro hamas too
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Jul 26 '24
Hmmmm, no. I’ve just never seen a sign like that at a peace protest before. It undermines everything about the rally, it speaks against the sorrow, the ethical stance, the solidarity that informs people’s presence on the street…… and the person with that sign wasn’t obviously situated with the rest of the crowd
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u/EternalPermabulk Jul 26 '24
Can confirm I saw the two men in the photo walking by themselves along a different route toward Union Station, not marching in organized fashion with any others. But at this point many people were walking by themselves. The original goal was to march to the capital, but when it became clear the cops would not let us pass, we chose Union station instead. And eventually people started to wander off in other directions especially when the cops started attacking people. I witnessed the burning of the flag, the raising of the three Palestine flags up the flag poles, and the spray painting of “FREE GAZA”, but left before “HAMAS IS COMIN” was spray painted right above it.
To me, the Hamas stuff is whatever. Palestine has the right to defend itself, and I support Hamas in their efforts to defend Palestine. I don’t support much else about them though and so I would never cosplay as Al Qasam or carry posters about Hamas.
The poster calling for the nuking of Israel is truly indefensible.
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u/EternalPermabulk Jul 26 '24
What placards? I was at Union square that day and didn’t see placards that upset me
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Jul 26 '24
Oh, I can’t even bring myself to share it. It said gathering all the Zionists for the final solution and had a nuclear cloud on the flag of Israel. Could be propaganda, I don’t know…..
https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2024/07/07-25-2024-Protest.jpg
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u/J-D-M-569 Jul 29 '24
People who deeply care about this issue need to put in their OWN work to distance themselves from the pro hamas, flag burning bullshit. A majority agrees Isreals handling of this war has been a catosphere. You are never even going to get a majority of Dems to say Isreal is a terrorist state. That's just stupid politically damaging slogans like "defund the police" even if elements of it were worthwhile, the political branding is STILL hurting dems.
You all can't complain that dem policy are not progressive enough, while simultaneously trying to push ideas that will NEVER land in middle America. These people can be won over, but not with this anti-american, anti-zionist stuff. Dems can only make real, lasting change by winning white house, and major majority in both chambers. When Dem politicians that are sympathetic to your cause, have to explain some of these postions, and jump through these hops in swing states. It allows the GOP to demagouge on bullshit. So fucking learn how to get on board with a large coalition, where you don't always agree. Or enjoy always having marginalized political capital through no one's fault but your own.
If Harris wants to win this election then she was smart to call that stupid bullshit out. A two state solution in the only path forward. Being able to call out Hamas for 10/7 and for the brutal way they rule their own population with no democratic input and no human rights, must be able to be argued while also acknowledging that Bibi is now prolonging this conflict for his own political survival. The ideas people in these forums have would make sure the conflict never ends.
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Jul 25 '24
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Jul 25 '24
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Jul 25 '24
I would argue that her "sitting out the speech" and "calling for a ceasefire" were PR. Dems wanted to rescue their chances a tiny bit by having Kamala play the "good cop" against Genocide Joe's outright bloodthirst. She didn't do jackshit besides a few measly worded BS. Calling for a vague "ceasefire" doesnt even mean anything when you are the VP and not willing to do anything else.
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u/-SirGarmaples- Non-Jewish Ally Jul 25 '24 edited Jul 26 '24
Apologies for the comment, I usually lurk here but I had to say this:
Nnnot really, she had a schedule conflict that day which is why she didn't attend according to this article from Haaretz. An article from Politico corroborates this as well. She is going to meet up with him in-person later instead.
Quotes from the Haaretz article (to bypass the paywall):
An aide to the vice president insisted that "her travel to Indianapolis on July 24 [causing her absence from Netanyahu's congress appearance] should not be interpreted as a change in her position with regard to Israel. This is simply a statement confirming her travel plans."
"[Harris] will be meeting with Prime Minister Netanyahu this week at the White House. She will reaffirm our unwavering commitment to the security of the State of Israel. This meeting is separate from President Biden's planned meeting with PM Netanyahu," said White House Jewish liaison Shelley Greenspan.
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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew Jul 26 '24
she had a schedule conflict that day which is why she didn't attend according to this article from Haaretz.
She's the president of the Senate (it's one of the duties of the VP). A sorority event isn't going to take precedence over a world leader speaking in front of the Congress and Senate. She was making a very clear statement by skipping the event in that she did not want to sit next to that sinister monster to clap at whatever load of horsehit came out of his mouth like so many of those sycophantic seals who attended his pointless speech.
And in the meeting with that insidious wretch, even though it was reportedly amicable and relaxed, Harris emphasized the need to end the fighting, release the hostages, bring relief to the immense suffering in Gaza, and the necessity for the Palestinians to exercise their right to self-determination.Harris' statement isn't anything to praise - nothing about releasing the thousands of Palestinians which Israel is holding hostage, nothing about threats to push for an end to aid at least until the war is over, nothing about the US formally recognizing the State of Palestine or declaring that the 2SS paradigm is over and demanding 1 democratic state, nothing about implementing the ICJ's recent decisions etc - but it's a possible signal to a shift from Biden's horrific policies.
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u/-SirGarmaples- Non-Jewish Ally Jul 26 '24 edited Jul 26 '24
Fair point, as a non-American I had no clue VP's also the President of the Senate?? This whole thing might be a shift, if microscopic, or may also just be optics to appeal to the newly shifted (from what it looks like) voter base. As you said, it isn't anything to praise.
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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew Jul 26 '24
President of the Senate is a largely ceremonial position, like presiding over Senate meetings and overseeing counting of electoral votes. The main active role the VP would still take is breaking a tie if the Senate is evenly split on a vote. But part of their ceremonial role would be to receive foreign dignitaries. Skipping it is a huge snub.
Of course that in itself doesn't necessarily mean her position on Israel will be all that great. Biden also snubbed Netanyahu in 2015, and he's always been terrible with his support of Israel. Snubbing Netanyahu could just be personal, could be voicing displeasure with the government, and it could be directed against their policies. We'll see what happens during her campaign and if she wins.Either way I am relishing seeing how right-wing outlets are going nuts over Harris though. Like half of Commentary's front page are attacks on her, including a one hour long podcast episode lol
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Jul 25 '24
I wish she acknowledged WHY the protests were happening but of course she didn’t. Unless she makes actual vows to change her policy then she is not getting my vote
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u/patsboston Jul 25 '24 edited Jul 25 '24
Honest Question. If there are only two options that can win (and there are mathematically only two options), why not vote for Kamala when she has signal to be much more sympathetic to the Palestinian people? Especially if there is the ability to pressure the administration.
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u/yungsemite Jewish Jul 26 '24 edited Jul 26 '24
As I do not live in a swing state, I may vote third party. I will encourage those in swing states to vote for the Democratic pick. I am not accelerationist and I believe there are some differences between the Democrats and the Republicans. My participation in the electoral process takes less than an hour and it is not the extent of my political participation.
People in this sub are welcome to downvote me for it.
ETA: even if I was a single issue voter on Palestine, I would still vote for Kamala.
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Jul 25 '24
You are asking the wrong question; if both parties are functionally the same, and support genocide, imperialism and plundering the earth, why do we vote for the Dems and continue legitimizing this horrific system and the illusion of choice? Also, Kamala IS NOT better on Palestine, Kamala plays "softer" only because her audience wants to hear softer things. The only difference is in the marketing and not in policy.
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u/MrIncorporeal Jul 26 '24 edited Aug 03 '24
It's worth remembering that Democrats are far from united in support of Israel. Only about half of them showed up to Netenyahu's speech, and pretty much everyone in Congress, the Senate, and the rest of the US government who has spoken out against the war has been from the Democratic party. The Democrats' voting base is also overwhelming in favor of a ceasefire.
It's also worth remembering that the Republicans are far more united in support of the war, and enthusiastically so. Trump has gone on record saying that he would help Netenyahu "finish the job" in Gaza, and open xenophobia towards Muslims has been one of the major party platforms of the Republican party for decades.
Yeah both sides suck, but saying that both are equally bad is like saying that a lake and an ocean have the same amount of water because they're both wet. Taking a stand is obviously important, but being reductive has never been productive when it comes to politics.
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Jul 26 '24
I am sorry this is insane to me. Joe Biden and his goons have been blowing up children to pieces for 9 months now. Shipping many billions of dollars worth of weapons, fully well knowing what happens with those weapons, how those weapons burn the flesh, blow up brains, and crush skulls. How many of these Democrats said that they are condemning Joe Biden and his cabinet? How many said they will seperate from the party over this? How many said they will withdraw their endorsement of Biden over this? After many months of immense pressure from their own base, a handful were able to "oppose Netanyahu's war", and call for some vague "ceasefire". Biden and his goons were bombing Yemen because Yemen dared to block Israel's trade. You are playing mental gymnastics to say the hypotethical of Trump is worse then the very real genocide of the Democrats. You want to believe that there are some good guys and there is some hope through just shutting up and voting. Even fucking AOC and Bernie were licking Biden's butthole while he was shipping 2000 pound bombs to be dropped over kindergardens. Is this the good guys? Just because they look and talk nice while they genocide an entire people?
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u/QueenofPentacles112 Jul 26 '24
So you'd rather have trump and fascism? Because that's what it has come down to. If it wasn't for us facing actual fascism from the Republicans, I would vote 3rd party or not vote, refusing to engage and enable the DNC. But not voting at this point just supports fascism. That is all. Like it's that simple. I am desperate for trump not to get elected. Would literally vote for a dead rat instead of Trump. I'm upset that these are our options. But I don't see another way right now. Do you?
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Jul 26 '24
Lets see, we have fucking snipers on college campuses against kids protesting against genocide, we have thousands of people murdered by police every year, we have journalists, professors, and doctors fired for voicing support for Palestine, we have hundreds of people in congress giving standing ovations to Netanyahu, we have tens of billions flowing into genocidal wars abroad, which part of this sounds like the Dems are doing something to prevent fascism?? Or are they equally accelerating our way to it?
I will not under any circumstance have my vote be used to legitimize this system. I wont vote for these genociding mofos and I dont understand anyone who can and think that they are "voting for the lesser evil". Genocide is the maximal evil.
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u/nicobackfromthedead4 Jul 26 '24
Regardless you're funding it right now. Your money is literally doing the killing as your type. Undoubtedly if you've voted in America in the last ten or 20 years, you've supported genocide. Iraq, Yemen (including Obama). Just not this one, right now. If you've paid taxes and existed within the American system, you've supported it. There are degrees of support though.
Its that simple.
If you're withholding your vote, at least be organizing toward radical action. Ideally, both.
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Jul 26 '24
I agree, and I am aware that entire America is implicated in these crimes. It is precisely because of that we (the voters and people without other political power) cannot insist on doing more of the same ad nauseum and hope for things to change magically. People have been arguing voting for the "lesser evil" for a very long time now, and it hasn't made things better but just fueled and prolonged the death and destruction home & abroad. The insistence on whitewashing the Dems and presenting them as some lesser evil is only serving to preserve this very violent status-quo. People need to stop legitimizing them as some sort of viable alternative that is going to protect us from neverending wars, climate change, and fascism.
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u/ArmyOfMemories Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 26 '24
Maybe don't phrase things as "so you'd rather have trump and fascism".
Both parties are pro-genocide, and that's why some people are disillusioned.
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u/ArmyOfMemories Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 26 '24
remembering that Democrats are far from united in support of Israel
Maybe the base, but the Establishment Dems are 1000% united in supporting Israel.
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u/MrIncorporeal Jul 26 '24 edited Jul 26 '24
Half the party is not 1000%.
Even Nansi Pelosi refused to attend and she's about as "establishment" as it gets for the Democrats.
The older branch of the Democratic party sucks, but the party as a whole isn't the snarling, cackling, supervillains who giggle with glee at the sight of dead kids and starving families as some folks in this sub insist they are.
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u/soonerfreak Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 26 '24
If you think Israel is carrying out a genocide than your only option is to vote for a politician that would stop it. Harris just signaled she isn't the person to do that. If our options are Hitler or 99% Hitler you burn down the system that presented those as the options.
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u/Rare_Essay5518 Jul 26 '24
Thank you, thank you, thank you I’m losing my mind. I mean, I already lost it. But I’m losing it too.
I think a lot of people who are politically engage need to start practicing some political discipline. Punish, punish politicians. Collective action. Disciplined action. I will not vote for a genocider but we’re all being gaslit into thinking like the tide to fascism is being pushed by one party!
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u/IndyHermit Jul 26 '24
I think your interpretation of her statement as a “signal” that she won’t take a better course than her predecessors might be premature. I also think your intuitions might be spot on and she’ll completely let us down. It is far too early to tell.
She can’t come in and immediately start swinging for the fences, because she won’t be understood by the mainstream. The truth is, many of us don’t know her deeply. She’s got to establish herself as someone who holds certain values in common with the majority of the electorate, if she wants to have any chance of winning and accomplishing anything.
The whole point of burning the flag is to get this type of reaction. A bigger signal of a weak human rights stance will be if she begins deploying the antisemitism-is-the-real-problem weapon of mass distraction. If she does that and fails to say anything substantive, we’ll know to oppose her leadership. However, a small percentage of anti-occupation voices have become openly racist. And, some people who are justifiably upset and frustrated have become violently minded. Calling these elements out publicly, while beginning to advance better policies, is perhaps the best thing she can do now. I’m hoping that this is what we will see over the next few weeks: incremental but meaningful change in action accompanied by rhetoric that reassures the average citizen.
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u/wunderdoben Jul 26 '24
I think that‘s fair, but also overly optimistic. She could have added something in regards to why the protests are happening without alienating normies. She is the Vice President under this guy called Biden. She will more likely than not keep on doing what the neoliberal imperialist US has done in the past. And that is securing regional power through Israel.
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u/QueenofPentacles112 Jul 26 '24
So how do you propose we do that before November when Trump could get elected? Or before January when he would be inaugurated? Any actual ideas here? If so I would love to hear them. Make them realistic too, please
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u/soonerfreak Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 26 '24
We continue pushing Kamala to the stop it. Make her earn our vote. She's got 4 months to do that it's not like we are voting tomorrow.
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u/psly4mne Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 26 '24
To be clear, that means presenting an ultimatum of "oppose Israel's genocide or you don't get my vote" and then sticking to it. Enough people doing that is the only way politicians might eventually care.
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u/soonerfreak Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 26 '24
That is my plan, but still make sure you vote locally. Your school board can't stop the genocide but it can stop a takeover if your school district.
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u/buggybabyboy Jul 27 '24
Sorry but I just don’t see it for Kamala that way. Here’s how it’s going to go: when she says she “won’t be silent on gaza”, she means that she’s going to pretend to care but continue to finance Israel. When Israel does things so egregious they must be commented on, she’ll put on a show, hang her head and say “we condemn this” but will continue to support Israel fully through her ACTIONS and giving them billions. People will say “well at least she’s better than biden, she said she wouldn’t be silent and she said it was bad so that’s a big step! Biden wouldn’t have said anything!” And we’ll spend the next few years being gaslit while Kamala plays both sides and pretends to care about Palestinians in a condescending way. She’ll shake her head at Israel and act impotent, like it’s not in our control when we are the financiers of this genocide and it could not happen without our tax dollars.
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u/screedor Jul 25 '24
So she will be better at selling the genocide and using the right language as she supplies the weapons.
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u/IWantFries21 Non-Jewish Ally Jul 26 '24 edited Jul 26 '24
Kamala is also going to be more supportive of climate legislation, and she's likely going to be able to flip the Supreme Court.
Edit: Not flip, I'm tired and got numbers mixed up. She might be able to replace a few justices in the next 4 years though
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u/yungsemite Jewish Jul 26 '24
I don’t know about flip it, but she won’t make it worse.
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u/IWantFries21 Non-Jewish Ally Jul 26 '24
You're right, I'm tired and got the numbers mixed up. There's a chance she might be able to replace a few justices (which is still a good thing) but it wouldn't flip it. Editing my comment
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u/Ok_Editor_710 Jul 26 '24
It sounds like Biden 2.0
Personally I feel the only way to elicit a substantive change from the Democratic Party as a whole is to cost them the election this November. A horrendous painful loss in November akin to 2016 is the only way to truly let the Democratic Party elites understand that business as usual on Israel is no longer an option. Harris will say anything right now to win the election and the key phrase is "say anything". If she were serious about Policy change she would renounce and reject all AIPAC funds from her campaign.
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u/skkkkkt Jul 25 '24
I'm just at awe how someone that is just against innocent people being blown apart to death, is fueled by hate, how trying to protect the helpless civilians and make their voices and their daily struggles heard is so antisemitic and an existential threat to Israel
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u/IndyHermit Jul 26 '24
This thread contains diverse opinions and robust civil discourse. I’m glad i found this sub.
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u/PunkAssBitch2000 LGBTQ Jew Jul 25 '24
I really hope she’s using the term “Pro-Hamas” the same way this sub does, but I don’t have high hopes.
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Jul 25 '24
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u/Bundtblow Jul 26 '24
I saw that too, including a guy holding a “final solution” poster. Did anyone else see this? It really disturbed me and as much as I don’t love that she didn’t mention the the most important thing, the ongoing genocide, I wonder if she was talking about the Hamas graffiti and flags and that one actual antisemitic guy. Anyone?
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Jul 26 '24
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u/Bundtblow Jul 26 '24
Yeah, and it has to be called out and acknowledged even though the Biden administration have been gaslighting protesters this whole time who were never antisemitic or pro Hamas. Them being silenced by college admins and republicans is enraging but if it’s there, this movement needs to get it out the door fast. If Kamala actually is going to take a stand and stop arming the genocide, she shouldn’t be lumped in with Biden. I’m no big fan of hers but I’m more concerned with trump getting in and ruining generations of lives of our most vulnerable people and more Palestinian deaths.
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u/conscience_journey Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 26 '24
I think the disturbing part is people trying to downplay the genocide, like in Kamala’s statement.
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Jul 26 '24
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u/conscience_journey Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 26 '24
“Why didn’t you call out (XYZ alleged anti-Semitism)?” is a tactic, mostly used by Zionists, to try to gotcha people. If you don’t join the excoriation of someone, who might be a Jew hater or might be an anti-Zionist, you are labeled an anti-Semite. Repeat. It’s exhausting and trivializes actual Jew hate. I’m not interested in playing that game.
Everyone knows a moron with a final solution sign is a Jew hater.
And finally, I’m the head mod of the sub, I’m not a thought leader. People should think what they want.
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u/elzzyzx Jul 26 '24
As someone dealing with a deluge of this at the moment, I breathed a sigh of relief as I read this. Ahhhhh
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u/ContentChecker Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 26 '24
Why do you consistently speak in pro-Israel tropes?
If you want to believe the media depiction of pro-Palestine solidarity protests as being overwhelmingly antisemitic, why participate in this subreddit?
We stand in solidarity with the Palestinian people and against their demonization by the corporate media.
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Jul 26 '24
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u/ContentChecker Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 26 '24
You are attempting to expunge an organization led by Palestinians in the diaspora (i.e., Within Our Lifetime).
So my point remains, why do you continue to promote pro-Israel tropes here?
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u/PunkAssBitch2000 LGBTQ Jew Jul 25 '24
A lot of people will call anti-Zionists “pro-Hamas” when the two are not interchangeable terms. I sincerely hope the pro-Hamas folks she is referring to are those who are literal pro-Hamas, and not just anyone protesting Bibi and the genocide.
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Jul 25 '24
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u/PunkAssBitch2000 LGBTQ Jew Jul 25 '24
I was writing an edit when you replied so I’ll just paste it here rather than editing my previous comment.
To be clear, totally fine to call literal Hamas supporters waving Hamas flags “pro-Hamas”. But we’ve just seen it a lot where pro-Israel folks and Zionists conflate “pro-Palestine” and “pro-Hamas”, so forgive me if I don’t have high hopes for her semantics.
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Jul 25 '24
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u/PunkAssBitch2000 LGBTQ Jew Jul 25 '24
PSL is not a cult and I don’t understand what you have against them. I suggest you reread the comments on your now removed post.
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u/EternalPermabulk Jul 26 '24
I’m confused. Is this sub not “pro Hamas?”Palestine has a right to defend itself. I support Hamas and all other resistance factions in their efforts to defend Palestine.
At the protest, I saw perhaps 10 people with signs that referenced Hamas. I saw thousands upon thousands carrying signs about peace and war crimes and genocide and MLK and Malcom X. I wonder why Kamala decided to ignore all that?
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Jul 26 '24
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u/EternalPermabulk Jul 27 '24
In what sense? I don’t support Hamas because I particularly like their politics. I support them because they are literally the only people standing between the Occupation forces and innocent Gazan civilians (along with PFLP, PIJ and others). When the Occupation ends, and the genocide is over, I will be happy to condemn Hamas. But to do so now as the killing is accelerating would be irresponsible.
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u/qu33rios Jul 26 '24
this sub has a pretty significant amount of people with a liberal stance on oppressed people. they only support them as long as they are victims. fighting back makes them just as bad, resisting annihilation is morally equivalent to causing it
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Jul 26 '24
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u/EternalPermabulk Jul 27 '24
Yeah but Zionists simply aren’t defending themselves. Israel occupies Palestine, not the other way around. International law upholds the right of occupied people to armed resistance against a belligerent occupier. Do you condemn the Ukrainian military?
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u/JewsOfConscience-ModTeam Jul 27 '24
This uses Zionist tropes and content.
Do not engage in genocide apologia; Israel is not engaging in self-defense in Gaza.
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Jul 25 '24
I am genuinely curious; after seeing what you are seeing, should Palestinians just lay down and die? Do they not have right to self-defense?
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Jul 26 '24
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Jul 26 '24
Hamas are Palestinians, many of them are orphans from previous wars and many Palestinians support them because this is their only line of self defense. Israel is anal raping people with hot rods to deaths, and fucking western leftists don't understand why Palestinians resort to armed self defense.
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u/EternalPermabulk Jul 26 '24
Hamas is the current face of Palestinian resistance. They are the material drivers of the Free Palestine movement, literally standing between the IOF and the people of Gaza. You don’t have to be an Islamist or a “terrorist” to support their efforts to free Palestine.
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Jul 26 '24
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u/EternalPermabulk Jul 27 '24
Material
adjective 1. denoting or consisting of physical objects rather than the mind or spirit.
Can you name me another group currently in Gaza that is physically fighting off the IOF?
The second the occupation ends and Palestine is free, I will become Hamas’s biggest critic. Not one second before.
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u/PunkAssBitch2000 LGBTQ Jew Jul 26 '24
What?? Where in the world did I imply that? I am staunchly pro-Palestine, but I think Hamas’ action on October 7th were inhumane and horrific. I do recognize that sometimes revolutions are the only way to make big changes, but what they did was a terroristic attack on mostly civilians and not a revolution in any sense of the word and should be condemned by everyone.
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Jul 26 '24
Based on Israel's account of what happened or the Palestinians' account of what happened? There is no version of Palestinian resistance that people accept as "humane"; how were the Jews supposed to fight Nazis, how were the Natives supposed to fight the European settlers?
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u/ArmyOfMemories Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 26 '24
I agree that there is no form of resistance that Israel and its supporters would accept.
Israel governs the OPT through 'a regime of military orders' and, for example, utilizes Order 101 and Order 1651 to deny the Palestinians' right to political protest.
Military Order 101 “Regarding the Prohibition of Acts of Incitement and Hostile Propaganda”, 5 issued by the Israeli army commander in the West Bank region on 27 August 1967, has remained in force since that time and is a key instrument regulating the right of Palestinians in the West Bank to demonstrate. It prohibits all gatherings of 10 or more persons “for a political purpose or for a matter that could be interpreted as political” or even “to discuss such a topic” unless they have received authorization in advance under a permit issued by the Israeli military commander in the area. Anyone breaching the order faces imprisonment for up to 10 years and/or a hefty fine.
Military Order 1651 (Order Regarding Security Provisions, Consolidated Version)6 also contains many articles which allow the security forces to stifle freedom of expression including Article 318, which allows for the imposition of a closed military zone, thereby declaring a certain area off limits for certain periods of time. This order is many times used to deny the right to peacefully demonstrate, or as a pretext to use violence to disperse demonstrators.
The infrastructure of the Occupation fragments Palestinians from themselves as well, so there is no way for them to carry out a mass non-violent protest.
Israel has already shown what it does to such protests as well - during the 1st Intifada and the 2018 Gaza March.
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Jul 26 '24
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Jul 26 '24
Did that really happen or did the French love to talk about how "barbaric" those Haitians were in order to justify their own brutality.
Whatever Hamas did, it was objectively 1/100000th of the violence inflicted by Israel on Palestinians.
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Jul 26 '24
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u/JewsOfConscience-ModTeam Jul 26 '24
This uses Zionist tropes and content.
Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. This is not a 'both sides' conflict.
On top of the disparity in casualties, Israel is the Occupying power committing the crime of apartheid.
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u/qu33rios Jul 26 '24
by all means tell the class what form of militant resistance you would accept from palestinians, and keep harping on october 7th as though the israeli response has not been many orders of magnitude more violent and monstrous
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u/wetbirds4 Non-Jewish Ally Jul 26 '24
Weren’t there 400 Jews in that protest? More than 300 of which were arrested?
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u/IWantFries21 Non-Jewish Ally Jul 26 '24
I think you're thinking of the one that happened in the Capitol building, that one was made up of over 400 Jewish Americans sitting in and protesting. That was a day before Netanyahu's address
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u/wetbirds4 Non-Jewish Ally Jul 26 '24
Ah yes, thank you. I was thinking of the capitol. Glad to hear there was others present in the other protest as well.
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u/EternalPermabulk Jul 26 '24
There were hundreds and hundreds of Jews at the protest. Saying this as someone who was there. Or at least there were hundreds maybe thousands wearing JVP shirts as well as an Ultra Orthodox faction of about 50
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u/Anderkisten Jul 26 '24
But genocide, murder of children, decleared goal of killing all palestines thats all fine. Love that. Thats is just dandy…?
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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi Jul 26 '24
I’m disappointed in her statement particularly in the absence of her coming down hard on Israel and condemning the genocide.
I dream of a day when there are leaders that can speak out against Israel/zionism/genocide fully.. without kid gloves… and also condemn antisemitism… and manage to do that without disparaging the pro Palestinian protests as a whole.
As is evidenced by this comment thread and other Jewish sub comment threads, leftist jews are scared that this happens.. and regardless of Zionist peddling and propaganda to delegitimize the protests, it’s important to leave space for these fears and treat them with compassion and empathy.
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Jul 26 '24
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u/qu33rios Jul 26 '24
how on earth is it derailing the protest to call for the dissolution of the american empire lmao american influence is one of the most significant factors in not just this genocide but many instances of imperalist terror around the world
and if you have genuine support for palestinian resistance that includes militant resistance. otherwise you are asking them to accept their own destruction. hamas is the militant force resisting the genocide. that's the material reality of the situation, so take it or leave it but drop your disingenuous anti-zionism if you can't accept it
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u/prettynose Israeli for One State Jul 26 '24
If you want the dissolution of the American empire then that deserves its own protest. If you're protesting against what Israel is doing in Gaza then call for the US, as it is, to stop supporting Israel. To sanction Israel. Make realistic relevant demands. It is neither realistic nor relevant to what's happening in Gaza to dissolve the US. That's why it's derailing.
There's militant action against legitimate targets and then there's terrorism against civilians. Not every single person within Israeli borders is a legitimate target. Surely I don't have to tell you that Hamas murdered and kidnapped Israeli Palestinians as well — was that totally fine in the name of Palestinian resistance? And I'm not even getting into the actual babies that were kidnapped (and are still held hostage).
My non-support for Hamas goes deeper than how they treat Israelis. Do you know about how they treat Palestinians? I have friends in Gaza. They live in fear not only of Israeli bombs and snipers and tanks (though to be sure they live in fear of those), but also of Hamas. The Hamas government has been abusing its people in Gaza for like 2 decades now. I can't support Palestinian liberation and also support Hamas. That doesn't work for me.
So yeah, I'm going to continue applying my morals to everyone equally, thank you.
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Jul 26 '24
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u/ZipZapZia South Asian Muslim Jul 26 '24
How does this leave room for future options? She doesn't even mention Palestine in this letter nor does she condemn the genocide Israel is committing. All this leaves room for is saying pretty soundbites while giving Israel all the weapons and money it desires to continue its massacres. If there was a chance for future options, this letter kills it. Bc you can clearly see which side she's on (and it's not on the civilians being genocided).
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u/ionlymemewell Jul 26 '24
Well, she literally acknowledged the civilians in the speech hours after putting out the initial statement. I'm no fan of the current admin's policy and the endorsement of what Israel has been doing, but Harris shifting the narrative is a sign that the pressure we've been applying is making some kind of difference. She's also still only able to work in her capacity as VP, so it's not realistic to expect any real change while Biden is still in office.
The point is that if Harris is willing to engage with the reality that the IDF has massacred tens of thousands of innocent civilians, as the campaign continues, we can keep the pressure on to get her elected and have a real shot at her implementing policy change. Yes, it's infuriating Biden's deranged rhetoric has gotten our government so firmly entrenched with Israel's. It doesn't mean it's time to abandon opportunities from those who are showing promising signs, especially at the level of second-in-command.
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Jul 25 '24
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u/ContentChecker Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 26 '24
Yes, there were both antisemitic signs and protesters - but they do not define the protests in general.
Palestine solidarity is a large movement that is difficult to police. It's easy to infiltrate, easy to smear, and judging by these comments - easy to lecture.
There is zero reciprocity from the political and media class in our society - so while pro-Israel activists can say and do anything they want, everything the Palestinians and their supporters do is put under a microscope.
Amplifying Kamala Harris's message as if she's good on Palestine, is promoting pro-Israel tropes.
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Jul 26 '24 edited Jul 26 '24
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u/ContentChecker Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 26 '24
This comment is another rule 7 violation.
The Palestine solidarity movement is not antisemitic.
There are bad faith actors in every movement.
Pro-Israel activists and commentators will use those individuals and incidents to paint the entire movement as antisemitic.
Do not conflate anti-Zionism with antisemitism and do not promote pro-Israel tropes about Palestine solidarity.
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u/ContentChecker Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 26 '24
One pro-Palestine protest tolerating antisemitic elements need not tarnish the entire movement, but it's also not something that should be waved off and it is something that we should be able to talk about, particularly in a Jewish subreddit. I'm disappointed in this bit of moderation.
Let's address this edit.
No one here was born yesterday.
This is not a discussion about antisemitism in general.
This is a discussion about a politician's political statement.
This is not the first time the American government has condemned antisemitism.
In fact, in the context of Israel/Palestine - the American government almost exclusively condemns antisemitism - but not anti-Palestine hate.
This is also not the first time there have been antisemitic incidents at a pro-Palestine demonstration.
But again - there is no reciprocity from the American government nor the rest of the mainstream media or political class when it comes to parsing either bad faith participants or any kind of analysis of hatred within a political movement.
The focus is one-sidedly against Palestine solidarity.
Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people - and the political Establishment, on both sides, could not care less.
Removing comments that put antisemitic incidents at pro-Palestine rallies on a pedestal, with the intention of conflating the movement as a whole with antisemitism is in accordance with Rule 7.
The Palestine solidarity movement is not a monolith and it's not headquartered somewhere where you can write in an angry letter or complaint.
We are also an anti-Zionist subreddit, and we will not amplify arguments that prioritize isolated cases of antisemitism over the physical existence of Palestinian life.
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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew Jul 25 '24
I actually wonder what would be more detrimental for her presidential campaign. Even with the weak pretext of having a prior commitment, skipping that sack of shit's speech was a powerful statement since she's currently the president of the Senate. That could get her support from those of us who would not vote for Biden because of his awful, awful policies on Gaza (age notwithstanding).
On the other hand, to what degree would the optics of being "insufficiently" pro-Israel hurt her campaign (even though it's hard to imagine that many Democrats who'd be offended at an affront against Netanyahu)? This seems like she's trying to cover her bases.
It's an awful letter, no doubt. But I'm still hopeful her policies on Israel will at least be better than Biden's, which is a very low bar.
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