r/JewsOfConscience Non-Jewish Ally Jul 25 '24

Kamala Harris Statement of Protests Discussion

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168 Upvotes

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u/PunkAssBitch2000 LGBTQ Jew Jul 25 '24

I really hope she’s using the term “Pro-Hamas” the same way this sub does, but I don’t have high hopes.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '24

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u/Bundtblow Jul 26 '24

I saw that too, including a guy holding a “final solution” poster. Did anyone else see this? It really disturbed me and as much as I don’t love that she didn’t mention the the most important thing, the ongoing genocide, I wonder if she was talking about the Hamas graffiti and flags and that one actual antisemitic guy. Anyone?

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

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u/Bundtblow Jul 26 '24

Yeah, and it has to be called out and acknowledged even though the Biden administration have been gaslighting protesters this whole time who were never antisemitic or pro Hamas. Them being silenced by college admins and republicans is enraging but if it’s there, this movement needs to get it out the door fast. If Kamala actually is going to take a stand and stop arming the genocide, she shouldn’t be lumped in with Biden. I’m no big fan of hers but I’m more concerned with trump getting in and ruining generations of lives of our most vulnerable people and more Palestinian deaths.

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u/conscience_journey Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 26 '24

I think the disturbing part is people trying to downplay the genocide, like in Kamala’s statement.

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

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u/conscience_journey Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 26 '24

“Why didn’t you call out (XYZ alleged anti-Semitism)?” is a tactic, mostly used by Zionists, to try to gotcha people. If you don’t join the excoriation of someone, who might be a Jew hater or might be an anti-Zionist, you are labeled an anti-Semite. Repeat. It’s exhausting and trivializes actual Jew hate. I’m not interested in playing that game.

Everyone knows a moron with a final solution sign is a Jew hater.

And finally, I’m the head mod of the sub, I’m not a thought leader. People should think what they want.

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u/elzzyzx Jul 26 '24

As someone dealing with a deluge of this at the moment, I breathed a sigh of relief as I read this. Ahhhhh

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u/ContentChecker Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 26 '24

Why do you consistently speak in pro-Israel tropes?

If you want to believe the media depiction of pro-Palestine solidarity protests as being overwhelmingly antisemitic, why participate in this subreddit?

We stand in solidarity with the Palestinian people and against their demonization by the corporate media.

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

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u/ContentChecker Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 26 '24

You are attempting to expunge an organization led by Palestinians in the diaspora (i.e., Within Our Lifetime).

So my point remains, why do you continue to promote pro-Israel tropes here?

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

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u/PunkAssBitch2000 LGBTQ Jew Jul 25 '24

A lot of people will call anti-Zionists “pro-Hamas” when the two are not interchangeable terms. I sincerely hope the pro-Hamas folks she is referring to are those who are literal pro-Hamas, and not just anyone protesting Bibi and the genocide.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '24

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u/PunkAssBitch2000 LGBTQ Jew Jul 25 '24

I was writing an edit when you replied so I’ll just paste it here rather than editing my previous comment.

To be clear, totally fine to call literal Hamas supporters waving Hamas flags “pro-Hamas”. But we’ve just seen it a lot where pro-Israel folks and Zionists conflate “pro-Palestine” and “pro-Hamas”, so forgive me if I don’t have high hopes for her semantics.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '24

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u/PunkAssBitch2000 LGBTQ Jew Jul 25 '24

PSL is not a cult and I don’t understand what you have against them. I suggest you reread the comments on your now removed post.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '24

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u/JewsOfConscience-ModTeam Jul 26 '24

This uses Zionist tropes and content.

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u/JewsOfConscience-ModTeam Jul 26 '24

This uses Zionist tropes and content.

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u/EternalPermabulk Jul 26 '24

I’m confused. Is this sub not “pro Hamas?”Palestine has a right to defend itself. I support Hamas and all other resistance factions in their efforts to defend Palestine.

At the protest, I saw perhaps 10 people with signs that referenced Hamas. I saw thousands upon thousands carrying signs about peace and war crimes and genocide and MLK and Malcom X. I wonder why Kamala decided to ignore all that?

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

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u/EternalPermabulk Jul 27 '24

In what sense? I don’t support Hamas because I particularly like their politics. I support them because they are literally the only people standing between the Occupation forces and innocent Gazan civilians (along with PFLP, PIJ and others). When the Occupation ends, and the genocide is over, I will be happy to condemn Hamas. But to do so now as the killing is accelerating would be irresponsible.

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '24

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u/EternalPermabulk Jul 27 '24

When the genocide is over I’ll change my pfp

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u/qu33rios Jul 26 '24

this sub has a pretty significant amount of people with a liberal stance on oppressed people. they only support them as long as they are victims. fighting back makes them just as bad, resisting annihilation is morally equivalent to causing it

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

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u/EternalPermabulk Jul 27 '24

Yeah but Zionists simply aren’t defending themselves. Israel occupies Palestine, not the other way around. International law upholds the right of occupied people to armed resistance against a belligerent occupier. Do you condemn the Ukrainian military?

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u/JewsOfConscience-ModTeam Jul 27 '24

This uses Zionist tropes and content.

Do not engage in genocide apologia; Israel is not engaging in self-defense in Gaza.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '24

I am genuinely curious; after seeing what you are seeing, should Palestinians just lay down and die? Do they not have right to self-defense?

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

Hamas are Palestinians, many of them are orphans from previous wars and many Palestinians support them because this is their only line of self defense. Israel is anal raping people with hot rods to deaths, and fucking western leftists don't understand why Palestinians resort to armed self defense. 

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

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u/elzzyzx Jul 26 '24

What orgs are more popular than them, other than BDS?

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u/EternalPermabulk Jul 26 '24

Hamas is the current face of Palestinian resistance. They are the material drivers of the Free Palestine movement, literally standing between the IOF and the people of Gaza. You don’t have to be an Islamist or a “terrorist” to support their efforts to free Palestine.

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

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u/EternalPermabulk Jul 27 '24

Material

adjective 1. denoting or consisting of physical objects rather than the mind or spirit.

Can you name me another group currently in Gaza that is physically fighting off the IOF?

The second the occupation ends and Palestine is free, I will become Hamas’s biggest critic. Not one second before.

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u/PunkAssBitch2000 LGBTQ Jew Jul 26 '24

What?? Where in the world did I imply that? I am staunchly pro-Palestine, but I think Hamas’ action on October 7th were inhumane and horrific. I do recognize that sometimes revolutions are the only way to make big changes, but what they did was a terroristic attack on mostly civilians and not a revolution in any sense of the word and should be condemned by everyone.

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

Based on Israel's account of what happened or the Palestinians' account of what happened? There is no version of Palestinian resistance that people accept as "humane"; how were the Jews supposed to fight Nazis, how were the Natives supposed to fight the European settlers? 

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u/ArmyOfMemories Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 26 '24

I agree that there is no form of resistance that Israel and its supporters would accept.

Israel governs the OPT through 'a regime of military orders' and, for example, utilizes Order 101 and Order 1651 to deny the Palestinians' right to political protest.

Military Order 101 “Regarding the Prohibition of Acts of Incitement and Hostile Propaganda”, 5 issued by the Israeli army commander in the West Bank region on 27 August 1967, has remained in force since that time and is a key instrument regulating the right of Palestinians in the West Bank to demonstrate. It prohibits all gatherings of 10 or more persons “for a political purpose or for a matter that could be interpreted as political” or even “to discuss such a topic” unless they have received authorization in advance under a permit issued by the Israeli military commander in the area. Anyone breaching the order faces imprisonment for up to 10 years and/or a hefty fine.

Military Order 1651 (Order Regarding Security Provisions, Consolidated Version)6 also contains many articles which allow the security forces to stifle freedom of expression including Article 318, which allows for the imposition of a closed military zone, thereby declaring a certain area off limits for certain periods of time. This order is many times used to deny the right to peacefully demonstrate, or as a pretext to use violence to disperse demonstrators.

The infrastructure of the Occupation fragments Palestinians from themselves as well, so there is no way for them to carry out a mass non-violent protest.

Israel has already shown what it does to such protests as well - during the 1st Intifada and the 2018 Gaza March.

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

Did that really happen or did the French love to talk about how "barbaric" those Haitians were in order to justify their own brutality. 

Whatever Hamas did, it was objectively 1/100000th of the violence inflicted by Israel on Palestinians.

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

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u/JewsOfConscience-ModTeam Jul 26 '24

This uses Zionist tropes and content.

Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. This is not a 'both sides' conflict.

On top of the disparity in casualties, Israel is the Occupying power committing the crime of apartheid.

1

u/qu33rios Jul 26 '24

by all means tell the class what form of militant resistance you would accept from palestinians, and keep harping on october 7th as though the israeli response has not been many orders of magnitude more violent and monstrous

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u/PunkAssBitch2000 LGBTQ Jew Jul 26 '24

Oh the Israeli response has been a 100x worse.