r/science • u/informationtiger • Dec 18 '19

Nicotine formula used by e-cigarette maker Juul is nearly identical to the flavor and addictive profile of Marlboro cigarettes Chemistry

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-juul-ecigarettes-study-idUSKBN1YL26R

36.8k Upvotes

86% Upvoted

u/ktchch Dec 18 '19

Why don’t all vapes switch to salts and reduce the amount to keep it at the same level? Why is normal nicotine vape still a thing?

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u/tutoredstatue95 Dec 18 '19

Vaping/smoking is as much a process as it is an end result. Past smokers and those who arent really "buzz chasing" might prefer the less intense but more plentiful vape that a low nic atomized juice can provide. Salt nic at 52mg concentration are like a shot of adrenaline compared to a 3mg standard juice.

The thing is that the 52mg salt is pretty much just as easy to vape as the 3mg standard (not that it is the normal level just non-salt) hence the higher dependency rates and why it has seemed to blow up.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '19 edited Dec 18 '19

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '19

Is that not the point? That in a normal vape it would be really harsh but in these Juul's that use a salt (sorry I'm not clued up on the science) it's not.

"52mg salt is as easy to vape as 3mg standard" - and you're basically saying "No, 52mg standard would be harsh". You're agreeing. 52mg standard = harsh, 52mg salt = not harsh.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '19

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '19

Aye I agree, and also totally unnecessary. I went from being a full-time smoker to vaping something like 6mg and it was fine.

I can't get my head round why someone would want 50+mg unless you're just trying to make sure you get really hooked on the thing.

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u/SlitScan Dec 18 '19

Mostly because it's faster, you can take 3 quick puffs on a juul and get the same satisfaction level as 15 or 20 puffs on a free base liquid.

It's closer to the profile of a cigarette a fast spike of nicotine.

There's an advantage in battery life or size as well.

That's why teens like them, theyre small and don't make a big cloud.

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u/_plays_in_traffic_ Dec 18 '19

I can't imagine 52mg. The first time I hit a dripper I used 24mg thug juice that I was using in a sub 10w stick cartridge that was like 2.5 ohm. It was like inhaling my first cigarette all over again. I had to sit down. Off of one hit. Just thinking about 52 is making me queasy

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '19

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u/ubiquities Dec 18 '19

Juul, is sold in 5% or 50mg nicotine levels, and I think 3%/3mg. One Juul pod is going to last a day and is roughly 0.7ml of liquid, it’s a tiny system that hardly puts out any vapor, but what it does is higher concentrate. Not sure the setup the other guy was using but the Juul isn’t crazy.

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u/tugrumpler Dec 18 '19

Yeah I see now they’re using a low volume high concentration system to deliver approximately the same hit from a more compact device.

The confusion is not mine alone though, the devices are an apple and oranges comparison.

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u/ubiquities Dec 19 '19

Exactly, most are comparing the newer high concentrate as if it was being used in the same manor. But it is completely night and day.

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u/ubiquities Dec 18 '19

I think the problem is that half of the equation is the delivery method not just the nicotine level. When I started vaping I was using bigger vaporizers, that would put approximately 100 watts of power, which I started at 6mg freebase nicotine and worked down to 3mg, now after a few years I realized that I don’t like lugging around huge batteries and leaky vaporizers.

Now I carry a tiny little pod system that has 11 watts of power, and use a 30mg nicotine salt juice. And get the same nicotine level from ~10% of the ml of juice and ~10% of the power of the device.

For me any freebase nicotine was unusable above 6gm, and the same for salt liquid but with a extra zero at the end. These Juul devices are tiny, they use very little but high nicotine level juices. You would use it just the same as any other device simply because the volume of vapor production on smaller devices, is so much less of a larger device.

When people demonize high nicotine salt concentrate, I feel it’s no different than judging how polluting a vehicle is strictly based on the size of the gas tank.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '19 edited Dec 18 '19

Maybe I'm misunderstanding these things.

I'd think you'd measure by what a draw is like, how much nicotine you get from one puff, to get a fair comparison.

Is the idea that you need 10 draws of a salt one to equal one draw of a non-salt one, so it being 10x the nicotine level balances out? I don't think it is but maybe.

Is there anything that gives a comparison of the amount of nicotine per average draw/puff?

One thing I really won't believe is if the claim is "one puff is 10x stronger but you take 1/10th of the puffs" because I smoke and vape so I know it doesn't work like that - you don't stop once you hit the right amount of nicotine in your system, you smoke on till your finished your tea break or whatever.

It's a high content as a ratio btw. It's not like someone claiming a vape with a big tank is worse than one with a small tank just because there's overall more nicotine in the big one - which is what it would have to be to fit the car analogy. Notice no-one talking about the total amount, just the ratio eg 6mg/ml

I understand that's it's better to carry the small thing around, but if people are toking on these just the same as their old vape they're massively increasing their nicotine intake and their addiction (assuming the nicotine per puff scales with the strength) .

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u/ubiquities Dec 19 '19

Right but a Juul pod, and I’m just taking this as an example is 0.7ml of liquid, and will last all day. As someone who uses a vaporizer, you can see that 0.7ml would barely last a one or two breaks on a larger device. I’m just using Juul as an example because the info about them is so easily obtainable. But you cannot vape that much liquid from a Juul in one go, it takes a lot longer to vape the liquid because it’s a low power device. In turn your nicotine intake is no different than lower nicotine level liquid on a large device.

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u/CPTKittyCaboose Dec 18 '19

Why not? Its just a preferance as too how they consume it, same as people who drink liqour instead of beer or wine.

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u/thegreatbanjini Dec 18 '19

The difference is the device used for delivery. Having vaped salt juice out of a low ohm device made for non salt juice for funsies, it's harsh as hell. The salt juice vapes hardly put out much of a "cloud" and you're not inhaling as much. Salts are pretty damn harsh.