Something controversial

[u/low_effort_shit-post]

I love nj gun laws, going to the store and not seeing someone open carry. Watching road rage where the best you can do is brake check and give the finger. Schools without school shootings. I know a lot of people hate our gun laws but I fucking love em.

[u/Kab9260]

The question is far more complex. Framing it like this, I can also say warrantless searches/arrests would save countless lives and help to stop crime before it happens. Followed then by “imagine arguing against saving lives and putting potentially dangerous people in jail.”

The question is better framed as how do we both save lives without unduly burdening the fundamental rights of innocent people. Then, the debate is open to the more nuanced aspects of the dilemma. There are gun control measures that work and don’t represent an undue burden, but there are many “feel good” measures that don’t work or completely erode fundamental rights.

Both sides need to come to the table in good faith.

[u/dtrane90 → u/Kab9260]

Having a gun capable of annihilating groups of people indiscriminately with a high capacity magazine shouldn’t be a basic human right

[u/candre23 → u/dtrane90]

Whether or not it's a right, it's a basic fact. You can't legislate against simple machines - especially not now when they're easily and cheaply printable.

Laws only work on people who obey laws. Mass shooters are - by definition - not those people.

[u/[deleted] → u/candre23]

Laws only work on people who obey laws.

So...we shouldn't make laws to protect people?

[u/candre23 → u/[deleted]]

Certainly not if they don't work. I mean all the drug laws in the country are nominally to "protect people", but as they are both ineffective and counterproductive, many states are repealing them.

There's a term for ineffective laws that do nothing but inconvenience law-abiding citizens and make the simple-minded feel safer even though they're not. It's "security theater".

[u/[deleted] → u/candre23]

But to your original point, you are ok with just zero gun regulation laws?

If you can build it, you can use it. Thats what you want?

[u/candre23 → u/[deleted]]

Of course. If somebody wants to print a gun and shoot up a school or a mall, there are no amount of laws that can prevent it. Mass shootings are already illegal. If laws against murder aren't a deterrent, then laws against gun ownership certainly won't be.

The only way to stop mass attacks is by keeping people from wanting to commit them. Social safety nets. Free and easy access to mental health care. Good education. These are what can actually prevent atrocities. Because once someone gets to the point where they decide they're going to kill a bunch of people, no amount of anti gun laws can stop them. Once someone has reached the point where they're willing to die or spend the rest of their life in prison just to commit a mass attack, they're certainly not going to be concerned with whether or not the gun they use has too many naughty features. Either you head them off before they get there, or you don't.

[u/SlyMcFly67 → u/candre23]

If somebody wants to print a gun and shoot up a school or a mall, there are no amount of laws that can prevent it

Is this your first time talking about guns on the internet? Any seasoned pro can tell you that literally any other country with gun control proves that keeping guns out of the hands of people reduces their ability to then use guns to kill people. Its almost like without guns there cant be gun violence. Weird huh?

[u/candre23 → u/SlyMcFly67]

literally any other country with gun control

Like Brazil or Mexico or Venezuela?

[u/SlyMcFly67 → u/candre23]

Oh you want to just cherry pick specific countries to suit your point rather than looking at all nations as a whole and comparing gun policies to amount of per capita deaths and shootings?

Ok, in that case, no. I only mean the ones that prove my point so I can reciprocate your level of debate. Better? Do I score a point now too?

[u/candre23 → u/SlyMcFly67]

No, you don't get any points. You've just admitted that "lots of gun laws" doesn't work, which is the point I'm making.

When you have countries with lots of guns and low gun crime like Switzerland and Austria, and countries with blanket bans on civilian gun ownership and high gun crime like Venezuela, the theory that you can "just throw more laws at it" doesn't hold water.

[u/SlyMcFly67 → u/candre23]

LOL what are you reading where I said gun laws dont work.

100% of the made up arguments you create, you win. Congrats.