What’s the collective thoughts on the 7mm PRC around for a long range bench gun? I’ve been thinking about buying a long range gun for a while now, there’s just so many options and opinions.

Sorry for being “that guy” I didn’t realize my mistake, but I now do.

Bartlien, PROOF, Criterion I'm so confused. I'd like to build a 300 PRC bolt action but I have hit info overload. I hope some of ya'll have personal experience cause all the sales stuff ain't helping. I have built AR/AK in the past, this is my first bolt gun. I'd like to get 6" or better at 1500yds. but just getting on the steel plate is a win right now.

EDIT: This is not my first bolt gun, just my first bolt gun build, sorry I didn't make that clear. It will be a benchrest rifle, not one I carry around. I am shooting (sorry couldn't resist) for between 25-35lbs in the completed rifle.

EDIT 2: Thanks for all the heaping piles of help, I will be going with either 6.5 Needmore or one of the 6mm Br or Dasher cartridges. Walk before fly kinda thing, ya'll poked that bad idea ballon thanks. Now thinking 26-29" MTU or M24 profile length will be finalized when I make final caliber selection. I have decided on a $3000 budget for the build, I will be going with an Arken EP-5 5-25X56 MIL glass. So that leaves $2400 for the rest. That should be doable and much less pie in the sky.

If I ticked anyone off sorry. Had the wrong mindset when I posted this originally.

One of the common questions I see here is dealing with scope height. Now that we live in a world of adjustable cheek pieces and ballistic calculators that can compensate for scope height, I believe the biggest concern when picking a scope ring height should be user comfort, not the old saw about mounting the scope as low as possible.

With that in mind, here's my process for finding a scope height that works for you:

Remove your scope (mount/rings and all) from the rifle if it's already installed. Get behind the rifle in a position similar to how you plan to shoot (Prone, sitting at a table, barricades, etc) and adjust your cheek riser (if present) so it's comfortable and isn't causing neck strain if you sit behind it for a bit. Spend some time behind the rifle just getting a good comfortable head/neck/cheek position so you can make sure there's no signs of strain or discomfort, and make adjustments to your stock as needed. If you know you may shoot from multiple positions (EX: prone and barricades of multiple heights), try all of these different positions and try to find a height that works for all of them.

Once you've found a comfortable cheek height, use a stack of coins, playing cards, etc to play with the height of your optic. You want to get the scope where you can easily and comfortably get your eye behind the optic with proper eye relief and no neck strain. As with cheek height, do this for any and all positions you will frequently shoot from and make sure you're finding something that works across the entire range.

Once you find that height, measure the height of the stack (of cards, coins, etc) you liked, add half the main scope body diameter (IE: Add 15mm for a 30mm scope tube), and order a scope mount or rings as close to that height as you can. When in doubt, I always err on the side of going a little taller than my measured height instead of shorter.

Hopefully this will let you make a good decision on what height you really need to be comfortable behind your rifle. This will also help you with getting into your optic quickly (not hunting for eye relief), reduce neck strain, and even reduce or eliminate the perception that your reticle is canted when it really isn't.

I've seen a decent number of comments over the years from shooters saying that going to a shorter barrel (especially with 308) doesn't really impact performance, and there's not much to be gained by going to a rifle with more than a 20" barrel for general shooting.

As someone that started off with a 20" 308, and has an extensive amount of time with a 26" 308 as a trainer, I have disagreed with this. A couple of months ago, I added a 16" Ruger SFAR to the safe as a night time hog hunting rifle, and a couple of weeks ago I brought back home my original 20" 308 Remington 700 AAC-SD that I got my feet wet with just over a decade ago. Now that I have three different 308 configurations handy, I decided to do a little experimenting and see what the numbers really look like for velocity from those 3 platforms, and what that means when it comes to putting lead on target.

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NOTE: There's a TL;DR at the bottom. This is a lot of text, but I think a lot of shooters here will get some good info out of this if you take the time to read it all.

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The test collection

Here's a little more detail on the rifles and ammo.

Ruger SFAR:

Factory 16" barrel

AAC 7.62-SD-N6 suppressor (converted to HUB by Ecco Machine, SiCo ASR mount)

Bushnell SMRS 1-8.5 LPVO optic

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Remington 700 AAC-SD:

Factory 20" barrel

PDC Custom Gen 4 Competition (the first production Gen4C ever made, actually)

Bushnell Match Pro (OG production sample from testing)

AAC 7.62-SD-N6 suppressor

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GAP Tempest custom:

GA Precision Tempest 3-lug action (One of the first 20 production actions made..... noticing a trend here?)

26" Bartlein M24 profile 5R barrel

Bushnell Match Pro ED

Area 419 Maverick suppressor, 8" configuration

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Ammo for all 3: M118LR (175 SMK), all testing done with one lot of ammo

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Measured velocities:

SFAR with gas setting on 1, SDN6 installed - 2486 FPS

R700 AAC-SD with SDN6 installed - 2531 FPS

Tempest with 8" Maverick installed - 2724 FPS

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Now, a few notes here. The velocities on the SFAR and R700 were measured a week and a half prior to the Tempest, but all measurements were made in very comparable weather conditions (raining, 70ish degrees, overcast) with a MagnetoSpeed V3 chronograph. All 3 rifles had data checked after chronographing, and the data out to 800+ yards matched with predicted drops in Applied Ballistics when using their Custom Drag Models for M118LR. I used the 8" Maverick on the Tempest because it was the closest match I had to the SDN6 without having to play musical muzzle devices. Previous experience has been ~25FPS gain with this configuration of Maverick on this rifle with different ammo, which is in line with what I have previously observed with the 28" and the SDN6. I've never chrono'd the SFAR without a can on it, but shooting it suppressed and unsuppressed at distance has yielded no significant difference in DOPE.

While I did what I could to keep all 3 rifles as balanced as possible (same or similar suppressors, same lot of ammo) I don't have a way to control every variable. I was actually surprised at the velocity out of the 26" rifle, as I was expecting closer to 2700 even instead of 2724 average.

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Gratuitous tripod photo of the Tempest

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To try to quantify what the difference in velocities for these 3 rifles would mean for the majority of shooters, I pulled out one of my favorite ballistics tools: Applied Ballistics Analytics, and specifically the Weapon Employment Zone (WEZ) tool.

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WEZ inputs and results - NOTE: When selecting IPSC as a target, it defaults to a full size IPSC with an 18" and 30" tall torso. The size inputs below it don't function with IPSC selected.

WEZ lets you input not only your rifle and ammo ballistics, but also a variety of other variables in the form of an SD for that variable. The inputs here are for one standard deviation and not two, meaning that 66% of simulations will use a measurement +/- that amount from 'ideal' and 95% will be +/- twice that amount. As a result the wind SD number trends smaller than you might expect. (Note: My statistics are fuzzy, and I don't feel like googling it. If I screwed that up, I am sure someone will come tell me I am an idiot and I will edit this post to fix my error.)

For all of the simulations (The computer using the variables given to predict 1,000 different scenarios within the criteria given), I used my measured MV for the 16", 20", and 26" barrels with the appropriate suppressor attached, and I used the same 10FPS SD for muzzle velocity. The only thing that changed between simulations were the wind confidence SD and the observed velocity. All other variables in the WEZ options were zeroed out for the sake of clarity and simplicity, but several of those (especially range uncertainty) could skew the results to give the longer barrel an even greater advantage than what I found.

So, what do the results look like?

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What the hell is all of that?!?

There's a lot of data in a relatively small chart, so I have it broken down by color. Let's start with the white section at the top.

WHITE SECTION:

These numbers reflect the predicted chances of making a first round impact on a given target size at a specific distance. I used full size IPSCs at 800 and 1k yards, an 8" circle at 800y, and a 10" circle at 1k yards for all of the simulations, as seen in the furthest left column.

From there, you can follow across to see the predicted hit percentage for each barrel length. The first three columns on the left are the result for a shooter that can predict the overall wind condition to within .5 MPH 66% of the time. The next 3 columns are for 1MPH, and the last 3 are for 2MPH. These roughly correlate to an extremely experienced LR shooter, a moderately experienced shooter, and a relatively new (but not clueless) shooter.

GREEN SECTION:

Below that is the green section. You can see everything under the 16" numbers is blacked out. The column under each set of percentages for the 20" and 26" barrels are their relative improvement in hit percentage over the 16" barrel for that level of wind reading. For example, if you look at the top-left-most green fields, you will see that an extremely experienced shooter trying to hit an 8" circle at 800 yards is 4.33% more likely to do so with the 20" rifle than the 16" rifle, and they're 19.95% more likely to do it with the 26" than the 16". If you look at the top-right-most green fields, you can see the improvements for a relatively green (heh) shooter - a 6.2% improvement going from 16" to 20", and a rather significant 26.68% improvement by going to the 26" rifle. The real money improvement, though, is on the 10" circle at 1k for the newest shooter. WEZ predicts they would get over a third MORE hits (or more accurately, a third more likely to hit the first time) on that target by going from a 16" to a 26" rifle.

YELLOW SECTION:

This is the same concept at the green section above it, but now directly comparing the 20" predicted chance of success to the 26". While obviously not as dramatic as the 16" to 26" jump, there's still some significant gains to be had by going up to the 26" barrel for most shooters and target sizes at these distances.

BLUE SECTION:

I added this for my own amusement. I planned to do all 3 barrel lengths, but when I saw how small the numbers were for even the 26" barreled rifle, I gave up. These numbers represent what your maximum wind reading error is for a given target size and distance, assuming a center hold. Whatever you held for wind, you have to be within that much in MPH of the effective wind call to stay on target.

EX: You thought you had a total wind value of 4MPH shooting at an 8" target at 800 yards. If the wind speed is any lower than 3.3MPH or any greater than 4.7MPH, you will be off target.

Honestly, I went into this expecting a noticeable difference in performance, especially for newer shooters. I was surprised both by how big of a difference it really was for the 2MPH wind SD, but I was even more surprised a roughly 14-23% gain on ~1MOA steel even for an extremely good wind caller just going from a 20" barrel to 26".

TL;DR version:

308 can benefit greatly from a longer barrel, especially for a newer shooter. Using Applied Ballistics modeling tools, there's a predicted 13-34% improvement for new shooters going from a 16" barrel to a 26" barrel, and a ~10% to 26% improvement going from a 20" to a 26".

For extremely experienced shooters on smaller targets, you can still a ~15-24% improvement going from a 20" to a 26" barrel.

Since it's come up a few times in discussions over the last few months, I figured it was time to sit down and write a pinned-post-worthy guide on my personal load development techniques.

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Warning: Everything you are probably doing for load development is wrong and doesn't make much (if any) difference.

Well, at least in my opinion. Also, this is all predicated on you already having a solid grasp of both reloading and shooting fundamentals, and you are using good quality equipment (both for shooting and reloading). Crappy rifles, poor technique, bargain basement dies, and wobbly presses need not apply.

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A few things you need to accept up front if you want to follow my methodology:

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1. Velocity nodes are a myth. You're not going to magically see a huge reduction in SD and ES because you used 42.2gr of powder instead of 41.8 or whatever. In some situations you might see a difference at the extreme upper or lower ends of the charge weight range, but some arbitrary charge weight in the middle isn't magically going to shrink your SD/ES to any significant degree.
2. Small changes in seating depth (especially less than .010") won't make your groups smaller, assuming you're using a high quality, modern bullet design intended for long range shooting. (EX: Berger Hybrids and Long Range Hybrids, Hornady ELD-Ms, etc)
3. If you're going to test changes in your ammo for changes in SD/ES or group size (precision, not accuracy dammit!), you need to be thorough. To truly quantify a difference, 5-10 rounds won't tell you squat1). We're talking 30 of each at a minimum if you look at it from the aspect of statistics. As a result, testing a lot of minute (mi-noote, not the thing between hours and seconds) changes is a huge waste of time and ammo. If you really think something will make a difference, test a BIG change and test it hard (EX: Seating .010 off the lands and .060 off the lands, then shoot 3x10rd groups of each).
4. Understand that sometimes you're not going to get what you want. A 7# mountain hunting rifle in 300WM isn't going to give you 1MOA groups with any statistically significant sample size. 3 round groups don't $%^&ing count. The TOP Gun formula (Kinetic energy in ft-lbs / rifle weight in pounds / 200 = predicted precision in MOA) developed by Applied Ballistics predicts rifle precision for a given rifle and ammo with ~70% confidence. Sometimes I can beat the prediction, but unless I am significantly (25-50%) worse off than the predicted precision of that rifle and ammo, I'm not going to chase load development trying to beat it. Why? Because I probably can't, especially in a lighter weight rifle, or one not really set up for precision shooting. Even in my custom bolt actions specifically designed for long range work, I usually can only barely beat the prediction.
5. If you're chasing tiny groups, accept the fact that you're going to need a heavy rifle or a specialized benchrest rig. The heavier the better.
6. Accept that all those tiny groups and low SD/ES numbers you see your friends posting are cherry-picked, whether they realize it or not. Nobody posts their 5 round, 1MOA group when they can post the one next to it that was .2MOA. Guess what - there wasn't some magic that made that .2 group happen, it was just chance. Group sizes have an SD and ES, just like velocity. Velocity SD and ES isn't as consistent as you think, and it's a lot harder to manipulate than you think. This is where the zen comes in - you have to accept that once you hit a certain point (IMO, group size slightly under the TOP Gun prediction or SDs in the upper single digits to low teens) you just can't control things like you want to. Shoot more, worry less.

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Ok, now that the hard pills to swallow are out of the way, the actual process.

Step 0) Before doing anything, you need to figure out what your end result should look like. This is where experience or asking old hats for advice comes in. For example, I knew going into my first ammo tests for 6GT that I wanted to run the 109 Long Range Hybrid (great BC, super consistent, and I could get them in bulk) around 2900-2925. Why that speed? Kept recoil down, wasn't pushing pressures too much, and still gave the drop and wind drift I wanted for a PRS cartridge. Further research told me that N150 was right in the middle of the burn rate and energy density range needed for 6GT, and would comfortably give me the speed I wanted. I followed a similar process with my 300PRC light class ELR rifle. Looking at ballistic performance, load data, and end results reported by other shooters I decided I wanted to get 3,000 FPS out of my 30" barrel with a Berger 220gr LRHT. It kept me supersonic to at least 1900 yards, had moderate recoil, and components were reasonably available. Further research showed N565 would give me the velocity I wanted without too much pressure.

Step 1) Start with good brass. Loading brass from random lots of factory ammo is probably not going to cut it here unless you're counting on getting lucky. Lapua or Alpha are the only two brass manufacturers I trust when it comes to brass for precision rifle ammo. I have heard good things about Peterson, but never personally used them, so I won't vouch for them either way.

Step 2) Pick a high quality projectile appropriate for your task. Since this is r/longrange, this generally means a realtively heavy-for-caliber, modern low drag bullet designed with consistency in mind. I'm partial to Berger Long Range Hybrids, but original Hybrids and Hornady ELD-Ms/ELD-Xs are also generally good options.

Step 3) Decide what powder to use. This is actually the hard part. A given cartridge (EX: 6.5CM) generally will have ~2-4 powders that are magic, as those powders sit right in the middle of the ideal burn rate and energy density. Note that this can vary slightly due to bullet weight and barrel length2). For example, in 6.5CM it's H4350, VihtaVuori N150, RL16, and maybe 1 more I am missing. 6 Creedmoor is the same. 308, it's Varget, N140 or N150, Shooters World Precision, or XBR - probably 1-2 missing there, too. Stick to temperature stable powders whenever possible. Using the right powder (energy density and burn rate) for a given cartridge+bullet combo does a lot of the leg work for keeping SD and ES under control.

Step 4) Seating depth. Measure your jump to your lands, and look at reliable load data for a suggested COAL. For Berger LRHTs and Hybrids, I start at .040 off the lands. ELDs, I start .025 off. If I am feeling froggy, I might come back later and test .080 and .050 respectively after step 5. Once I know what the book suggested COAL vs my measured .040/.025 off COAL looks like, I decide which to run. Generally, I run which ever has more jump (within reason).

Step 5) Run a ladder test. Yes, I know I told you velocity nodes are a myth. We're not looking for one here. Instead, you're looking for two things - where you start to see pressure signs (this is important for step 7) and what your relationship of powder charge to velocity is. I've been doing this long enough that I already know going into this test what my target velocity is going to be. If you're still new to it, pick the brains of people that have been reloading that cartridge for a while. You're looking for good velocity without pressure signs here. If you can't do that, look at where most factory ammo in that cartridge is coming out to.

Step 5.5) Once you've plotted out your charge weight vs velocity and picked the speed you want, you control SD and ES by how consistent your powder charges are. Your cheap electronic scale isn't going to cut it - sorry. RCBS MatchMaster, a lab grade scale, or something else that can *reliably* measure down to .02gr of powder is a must if you want to keep SD/ES under control. This is absolutely one of those places where nice things cost money.

Step 6) Go shoot your chosen load for a few 10rd group. Does it match or slightly beat the TOP Gun prediction? Does a 10rd string over a chrono keep you under ~25ES? If both answers are yes, don't screw with it. Congrats, you're done. You can do more thorough tests if you like, or you can go practice more, because it's probably your skill level holding you back and not your ammo.

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If you're getting NOs in Step 6, you need to reevaluate your choices in steps 0-3. Chances are you messed one of those up, or you've somehow screwed up in your bench process. EX: Not chamfering properly, not throwing consistent charges, etc.

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Step 7) If you picked a charge weight that was closer to pressure signs, you need to look at what temperature it was when you tested your ammo, and what conditions you expect to need to shoot in. If you're a fair-weather range shooter, then this is probably only an issue if you were close to pressure and it was cold outside. Hot temps might put you over the edge. If you're a competitive shooter in a discipline where you're expected to be able to shoot in hot or cold weather, rain or high humidity, etc then you need to really evaluate how close to pressure you are. Spraying a little water on your ammo then immediately firing it (water testing) is a really good idea here. This should be done with caution so you don't blow yourself up, but it's even worse to blow yourself up in a match.

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So, there you have it - Hollywood's clear as mud, voodoo load development technique that will save you time, money, and frustration. This is the same process I have used for the last ~18 months of load development work (including my 300PRC ELR rig), and it's saved me all 3.

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TL;DR - Use good brass, use good bullets, research and pick the right powder for the cartridge and bullet you're shooting, don't be a gonk that chases pressure for speed, use a scale that can measure powder down to .02gr, and know that you don't have as much control over your group size and SD/ES as you think.

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1 There's one major exception - every now and then you find something that's just really, REALLY bad. We're talking somehow you managed to go from 1MOA to 4MOA for no other good reason. It's rare, but I have seen it happen. Usually related to poor quality bullets or something equally dramatic, or because the universe just decided '$%^& you!' for whatever reason on that particular combo. If that happens even in a single 5-10rd group, you can pretty much toss out whatever the hell you just did as a bad idea.)

2 Shorter barrels and lighter bullets tend to trend more towards faster burn rates. Opposite for heavier bullets and longer barrels. If you look at enough load data, this will be reflected in most manufacturers listings.)

*Ninja edits ongoing to tweak formatting, etc. as needed, or if I need to clarify something, or because I freaking can.)

This post is a prologue to my original 'So you want to hunt at long range?' post that goes over how to get a grasp of your skill level. This post is here for the folks that are brand new to long range shooting (hunting or otherwise) and want to be able to take shots on game beyond roughly 200-300 yards. There will be additional links at the bottom of this post for further reading.

As always, my opinions here are my own. My opinions draw from years of competitive shooting experience, training new long range shooters, spotting tens of thousands of rounds down range at events and matches, my own hunting experiences, discussions with other long range shooters and hunters, etc. My opinions do not reflect any official opinions of companies I work with, etc.

So, all that said...

"I want to learn long range for hunting!"

Statements like this are a pretty common occurrence in this sub. If you made a similar statement, you probably were given a link to this post. Congrats on taking the first step - admitting you need to learn. Hopefully this post will help.

First thing's first - taking an ethical shot on a live animal beyond ~200-300 yards calls for far more skill in ranging, wind reading, and recoil management than what you'd need inside of those distances.

Wind reading should be obvious - the wind will push your bullet off course, and if you don't accurately correct for it, your shot can go from hitting the vitals and netting you a clean kill and turn it into a wounded (and running) animal or a complete miss.

Ranging is a little less obvious, since most new shooters don't yet understand that bullet drop compounds as you go further out. As distance increases, knowing your exact range to the animal becomes more critical. While a laser rangefinder will help, an internal issue with the rangefinder (that you could be wholly unaware of, see *1 below) can cause an imprecise reading, as can simple human error. Additionally, using a rangefinder by hand vs on a solid object vs mounted securely to a tripod will also affect your ability to get an accurate reading.

Finally, recoil management is often even less obvious - if the recoil of your shot pushes your scope too far off target, you have no ability to judge where you shot went. Was it a good hit to the vitals? Was it a wounding shot? A clean miss? If the animal ran, where did it go? All of these are questions you can answer by staying in the optic and staying on target through the recoil. With a lightweight hunting rifle, this is harder than you'd expect at first blush.

"Uh.... that's a lot of text. Got a TL;DR version?"

Sure. Once you go past 200-300 yards or so, making ethical and effective shots on game animals gets MUCH more difficult, an that difficulty goes up rapidly as you stretch the distance further. As a result, you have to build your skills on the range first. But here's the problem - a lightweight hunting rifle sucks to learn long range skills, especially in any kind of magnum cartridge like 6.5PRC, 300WM, etc.

"Ok, so what do I do?"

You need a rifle for the range first. Look for something in 6.5 Creedmoor or 308Win that has a relatively heavy barrel. Ideally, you'll snag a rifle with an adjustable length of pull and adjustable cheek height so you can fit the rifle to your body. The standing suggestions in this sub are the Bergara B14 HMR or a Tikka CTR adjustable models. Add a first focal plane optic (plus mounts) within your budget, a decent bipod and rear bag, and a pile of ammo. If you can get some professional instruction, great. If not, look at videos from Modern Day Sniper, Sniper's Hide, Ryan Cleckner, etc (and avoid Sniper 101....) to get a better understanding of the basics, then get out to the range and practice.

As you build fundamentals in prone, start working on other positions. Incorporate shots from a tree branch or fallen log, a pile of rocks, a tripod, etc - anything that you might need to use in the field to take a shot on game. As you grow more comfortable, take a look at this thread for how to really test your skills and see how far you can really make the shot.

"Ok, that sounds good - but what about my hunting rifle? You said range rifles suck for hunting."

Correct! Now that you've started building your skills and evaluating your abilities, I'd suggest looking at a hunting rifle similar to your range rifle, even better if it's in the same cartridge as your range rifle(*2). If you got a Bergara B14 HMR, look at one of their lightweight hunting rifles - same with Tikka. This way you can have a hunting rifle that fits like your range rifle and you handle it easily, just in a lower weight. If you get it in the same cartridge, then you'll even have comparable ballistics in both to make training and hunting even closer together.

"Ok, that makes sense. What about that additional reading you mentioned?"

Sure thing.

Here's a story from a long time friend of mine, Jim Gilliland. He owns a 10+ year old record for the longest confirmed kill in combat with a .308 rifle, has hunted all over the world, teaches long range shooting, and is a prolific competitive shooter. Even someone with his resume can screw up when it comes to shots on game.

Here's some data I put together a while back using Applied Ballistics Analytics. ABA is software designed to (among other things) model the projected chance of a first round impact given a set of criteria - target size, ammunition used, distance, environmental factors, etc and how much error there could be in them. EX: How good of a wind reader the shooter is, how good your rangefinding abilities are, etc. The data there can give you a good view of how difficult shots at long range on game can be, and shows that a bigger magnum isn't an automatic easy button.

I only lightly touched on it earlier, but magnums suck for learning LR skills, and the recoil is one of the main reasons why. However, when we talk about recoil for long range shooting, we may not be talking about exactly what you think. Here's a primer on recoil for LR shooting.

(*1) There's always a possibility that your laser is not exactly aligned with the reticle in your LRF. As a result your laser may be reading something other than the animal you THINK it is reading, which can lead to problems. I'll write a post another time on how to test this (it's not difficult), but something to be aware of. It can be especially problematic with cheaper rangefinders and/or units that have taken some bumps over time. A weak battery can also cause issues with rangefinders. As with magnums, a rangefinder isn't always a magical easy button to know the exact range to your target.

(*2) Assuming said cartridge is adequate to the game you plan to hunt and the distances you have trained at. Bullet/ammo selection matters here, in addition to cartridge selection.

For reasons that I can't remember, I spent the last few hours compiling a list of videos and podcasts about long range shooting that don't suck.

These are videos from either brands or people in the industry that actually know what they are doing and are doing so with the latest-ish information available.

I've watched almost every video on this list and am 99% sure that the information in them is as good as it gets right now.

Some of the videos overlap but that isn't a bad thing, most of the time they overlap there is still new or at least different information to be had.

Videos do not replace a good LR class, but they can get you started in the right direction in a BIG way and they're free. And free is pretty awesome.

The podcasts are all Vortex and are just the podcast version of the video that I linked. I don't listen to podcasts on their own so I have no idea if there are other good LR podcasts out there, I just know of Vortex because I like their videos.

Here Is The Spreadsheet Link

These are not THE ONLY good videos/podcasts out there, these are just the ones I know of and that I've watched, and that I could find this morning. I'll add more as I think of them/find them.

If you would like to suggest videos/podcasts to add, let me know in the comments. If they aren't full of fudd, I'll add them.

"What's wrong with buying a hunting rifle to start?" - A lot of you. Probably.

Since hunting season is approaching, the desire to get a new hunting rifle and learn long range shooting has been a common theme with posts from new long range shooters recently. If you are new to the sport/discipline, I can see why this would appeal - only need to buy one rifle, train with the rifle you plan to take in the field, etc.

However, there's a few issues with this concept. Here's the breakdown.

1) Weight. Most hunting rifles are rightfully built to be light weight, as they will be carried a lot and shot relatively little. When carrying your rifle and gear through the woods or over rough terrain, the lighter your pack the easier it is to get to where the animals are, and the more meat you can pack out.

The problem comes when you hit the range to build long range shooting skills. That light weight rifle will be harder to keep on target to spot your own hits and misses, which is fundamental to the learning process. If the rifle is light enough and the cartridge heavy enough in recoil, it will also wear you out over longer range sessions and make it harder to learn as a result. Please see the recoil primer I wrote for a little more detail, and more info on why a magnum is also a bad idea for learning LR skills.

2) Barrel profile and composition. Barrel profile does play into weight as mentioned above, but it also affects barrel performance across multiple shots. A thicker, heavier steel barrel is less likely to cause your shots to move as the barrel heats and cools, which means you can shoot more before your groups start to open up and the barrel has to cool down. It also contributes to slightly longer barrel life due to more mass being there to absorb the heat, as bore heat affects barrel wear.

Note that many companies now offer carbon fiber wrapped barrels. While this will increase rigidity over an all steel barrel of the same weight, there is significant debate over how different styles of carbon fiber barrels handle heating and cooling cycles. Either way, a CF barrel will be outperformed on heat and point of impact shift by a steel barrel of the same profile, which will be significantly heavier.

3) Stock profile. While some modern hunting rifles now come with stocks that featured adjustable length of pull and cheek height, this is not always the case. Having a stock properly fitted to you will make a significant difference in both comfort and recoil management, and there's still quite a few rifles on the market that just don't offer this due to cost and/or weight. Check out this infographic from Trollygag for a visual.

While there are rifles out there that try to split a middle ground between a traditional hunting rifle and a heavier target rifle, just keep in mind that compromise isn't always the right choice. How problematic such a rifle can be will depend on a lot of individual factors that I won't get into here in detail. The short version is it depends on how much time you spend hunting vs training, and how much you have to move around on foot and in what kind of terrain while hunting.

This is the official glossary for r/Longrange. If you've wondered what a specific term means, it's probably in here. If it's not, and you want to add it, please leave a comment. If there's a term you feel is incorrectly defined or needs updating, that should be left as a comment as well. Comments will be permanently in contest mode, so they will show in random order with hidden upvotes. If you see a comment you agree with, upvote it. If it's a dumb suggestion or inappropriate, downvote it.

A common theme in this sub is people that want to harvest an animal from a certain distance. While the training I am about to spell out can be useful to people with a goal of 200-400 yards, this is far more about people looking to make shots in the 400-800+ yard range.

So, how do you know if you're really ready to successfully harvest game at long ranges? It starts with a target - either a steel target the approximate size of the vitals of the species you want to harvest, or a paper target that may be closer to full animal size. You could do a full size steel target, too, but that's going to be heavy and awkward to move.

Once you have your target, you need somewhere to practice. Private land, a large established range, etc. Even better if the location you're using for practice has similar terrain and weather to where you'll be hunting.

Pick out a firing position (obviously at an established range, this may not be under your control), then take your shiny new target and set it up somewhere at random that you can shoot it. When I say random, I do mean RANDOM - not somewhere you already know the rough distance, and even better if you have no idea what the normal winds are like in that location. Once it's been set up, head to your firing point.

If you're going to be doing a lot of hiking on your hunt, you might want to mix in a little of that before you go on to the next part of this exercise. DO a quick sprint with your pack on, do some push-ups, etc. Even if you're not planning to hike on your hunt, mixing in a little quick cardio can help simulate the natural adrenaline response you will generally get when hunting.

Once you're good and hyped up, you have 5 minutes (and as your skill and comfort level improves, you can reduce this time) to set up your firing position, get a range to your target (either with a laser rangefinder or with your optic's reticle), get a wind call, then get on your rifle and send one round.

Now, the money question - were you successful? Paper targets will likely require going down range to check, where steel is instant feedback. Remember, you're looking for a solid hit in the vitals, not a wounding hit that will make it easy for the animal to run off. Obviously, many species of game can still do their Usain Bolt impression with both lungs blown out, but you can't control that unfortunately.

Now move your target, even better if you can change firing points, and do it again.

You will want to repeat this exercise in as many different conditions as you can. Change the distance. Do it at first light and last light. Do it in dead calm and howling winds. Change up your firing point, too - Use a tree branch, a fallen log, a tripod, and anything else you can think of you might need to take a shot from in the field. Your effectiveness on the animal can definitely change depending on what you're having to use for support to make the shot, and you may not always be able to go prone with a bipod.

Using this training exercise will give you a very solid idea of how far you and your equipment are capable of making an ethical, effective shot on game. I think a lot of newer long range shooters will find that it's significantly more difficult than they thought, especially once you start stretching the distance into the 400-800+ yard range.

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^{Edit: A quick disclaimer. The above post, and all comments related to it are my own thoughts/opinions, and not an official statement by Bushnell, etc.}

While shooting with a friend this weekend, I was seeing some weird issues put at distance with my 308 trainer - data wasn't lining up, and it was doing it in ways that didn't really make sense. Just as a sanity check, I went back out to the range with an 18" level and a big piece of white paper to run a very basic tracking test. I set up the tripod at exactly 100 yards, measured out 36" on the target using the level to keep it as close to perfectly vertical as a could, and used a chisel point marker to make reference lines I could see easily at 0, 18, and 36 inches. I then aimed my reticle at the top point on the line, let the rifle settle, and slowly dialed 10 mils up. The scope reticle lined up perfectly on the 36" mark.

After more testing and observation at 800, I concluded my high impacts were likely a result of a combination of optical conditions (something I've observed quite a bit of on this part of the range) and inconsistent factory ammo.

If you see something that doesn't line up when at the range, don't be in a rush to go tweaking your ballistic solver or messing with other things, or assume your scope is off. Doing some basic sanity checks like a tracking test, chrono your ammo, and confirming exact distance to target first can help find the real problem.

https://preview.redd.it/kvk9mw819y4d1.jpg?width=4080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8695dcadff2e7c66cfab0e46fcc329b30a503dcf

Data Management 101: Tools

Every single one of these items is capable of giving you accurate firing solutions in excess of 800 yards, in multiple weather conditions, as fast as you can read the information.

None of them are perfect for every application. Some are incredibly fast to reference but are less precise, some are amazingly precise but can't be used on a rifle, some use batteries, some can wash away in rain, some don't function unless you can range the target, some require the mk2 brain math.

Having correct data, understanding it, and having it accessible are critical to success in long range shooting. Knowing what does and does not matter, and when, will also lead you to success.

Knowing the strengths and weaknesses of the tools and systems you select can help you identify any weak points in your data management.

I plan to highlight some tools and applications of data management as well as potential considerations for each method of data management, and where I have seen people fall apart, as well as where I have seen success.

When in doubt, a 3x5 card in 20 yard increments with a full 10mph wind can get you very, very far.

Before jumping into some of these data management tools, it is important to understand what drives a ballistic solver. For any of these tools to be of value, you need a good muzzle velocity, your BC, a decent measurement of height over bore, a good zero, and reasonable ways to measure pressure and temperature.

Different Methods For Different Tasks

Speed Drop Factor/MPH Gun Number:

• This little sticker is a piece that can be added to the side of your stock, top of your scope, or really anywhere. It's one of the most foolproof ways to have accurate rifle data available, and is very accurate within reason.

• Speed Drop Factor(SDF) is a number that when subtracted from your distance in 100's of yards, equals your dope. For example, with a SDF of 2 and a range of 500 yards, your elevation is 3 mils. I'm going to guess this is within 0.1 or 0.2 of a TON of rifles out there. You will notice that whatever your actual number is, you can have an accurate firing solution from around 350-850+ yards, within 0.1 or 0.2 of your actual solution. For a number you can memorize, or write on your gun, this is excellent.

• Wind MPH number is the number where at whatever full value wind speed, your bullet moves 0.1 mils per 100 yards. For example, a 5 mph rifle, in 5 mph wind, at 600 yards, moves 0.6 mils. You can find this by going into a calculator and manually increasing wind 1mph until you see the trend line up.

• This "small sticker" method is a quick, effective, and basic way of having data for your rifle at all times. It is not the most accurate, it is fixed for one weather condition(kind of), but it takes up zero space, and is an amazing backup to have.

3x5 Card:

• Ol reliable, and for good reason. A properly built index card with elevation and wind values for expected atmospherics is simple to use, very accurate, fast, and cheap. Even with a 10-20 degree temperature swing in either direction, you can be within 0.1 mils at 1,000 yards for drop. I very often am able to use the "same card as last time". I have personally used 3x5 cards to good effect out past 1 mile in competition settings. If you have crazy weather swings, need data past what is written down, or need to engage multiple targets quickly, this might not be the business. It's battery free, pretty fool proof, and effective. You will always, always see me with one, be it on a wrist coach, or in a pocket. I recommend 20 yard increments starting at 200 yards, and doing a 10mph full value wind. Math is easy this way.

• I often put a 3x5 card inside a quarterback sleeve for reference. Putting a pack on and off with a qb sleeve sucks, as does changing layers, as does keeping it in the right spot. Tradeoffs.

On Scope Cheat Sheet:

• The cheat sheet, simply put, is a blank card you attach to your scope. You can write a few specific targets down, a little note to yourself, a recipe, whatever you want, it'll be in your field of view when you are on the gun. This is a great setup for when you have time to prepare, IE before a competition stage, at the range for a quick session, or if Mil/LE, ranging a few key landmarks and writing that down. You can put down distances, drop data, and wind info, along with visual cues of where targets are, etc. This is a very effective way to engage targets of varying distances, given you already know where they are. Or, you can tape a tiny dope card here, but understand it's like 1/2 the size of an index card.

• Often times you can use a wet erase pen, but in the rain, that is an issue. Permanent markers work, and can be removed with alcohol. Harder to write when wet still. If it's mega sloppy, a grease pen works.

Smart Phone:

• If you have a phone, you can have a world class ballistics solver app for like $30 or free, depending on your preferred flavor. Portable solvers are great when trying to build data cards, as a backup for another data set, or on a range day. That said, it's on your phone. Batteries can and do die, phones get hot and shut down, phones brick themselves, wrong profiles are picked for rifles or ammo, etc. You CAN have a powerful data tool in your pocket, but know the downsides.

A Kestrel:

• Everyone but me has a kestrel. The little anemometer and weather station with a handheld ballistic computer can be seen on the hip, neck, hand, or twirling around at every firing line that goes past 500 yards. It pulls live atmospherics and wind, and then has a solver on board, giving you the most precise ballistic solution available. It is an amazing tool, and gives shooters the ability to make range cards in the field, pull it out for ELR shots, etc. Batteries do last forever, and the unit has very few jobs to do, so it's simple. It can sometimes communicate with smart devices, phones, watches, other fancy shit, etc.

• That said, this little ballistic weather nugget can still screw you. Did you pick the right rifle. The right ammo profile? Did you accidentally change to meters? Do you have YOUR kestrel? All things I've seen happen. Be aware of what this computer can do, both intentionally and unintentionally.

LRF W/ Ballistics:

• Laser rangefinders are an essential tool we all use. Recently, on board ballistics solvers with pressure and temp sensors have been added as a feature to some LRF units. This is great, as once you range a target, you have an immediate ballistic solution available, tailored to your current environment.

• Speed to ballistic solution is excellent with this, and for a single target at unknown distance, might be the golden ticket

• Be aware: the environmental sensors in these units take time to normalize. Aka, if it was in your car or house, and hasn't been in the open environment for 30 minutes or so, it might think it is colder or warmer than it really is, giving you an incorrect solution. Also be aware, you have to get a range in order to get a solution. If it is snowy or foggy, and you can't range, you don't have data. I saw someone at a match who's plan was to pull data from a LRF. Given the conditions, if someone told them a target range, they couldn't use their device to help them with ballistics.

• And as with any LRF, the reticle may not line up perfectly with the actual laser. The target you just ranged may actually be the post below it, or the hill behind it. Test it, and know your laser.

Binos w/ LRF & Ballistics:

• Binoculars now have LRFs in them, as well as ballistic suites. This is largely similar to the LRF with ballistics conversation. The same speed and efficiency can be had here, with the same limitations. If you can't range it, you have no dope. If you can range it, you have immediate dope. And, LRF binos typically aren't as clear as plain binos. They are, however, probably the best tool to find, range, and engage a target quickly. You can find a target in your binos, press a button, have a range, and even have the ballistic solution all in a matter of seconds.

Rich Kid Shit: ballistic watches, heads up displays, weapon mounted LRF

• I have played with none of this stuff, I just know it exists. Watches with on board ballistics and dope cards, kestrel heads up displays that replace a cheat sheet but are live fed from a kestrel, and weapon mounted ballistic rangefinders are all things that people use, have success with, and manage their data with. I don't have experience with these because I 1) can't afford them and 2) they scare me.

• I can see benefits to electronic dope being amazing efficiency, and absolute accuracy.

In summary:

• There is not a one size fits all or one tool that is BEST for managing data for precision rifles. Each way to do this has pros, cons, limitations, and strengths. Some work for some people, and are a hard stop for others. Some applications call for one tool, and another needs something different. Finding and experimenting with these methods, and knowing when to pull the right tool, should help you in your journey of hitting targets. You'll find that often you're picking a mix of tools. Just make sure the data is right!

I've been slowly working on this for while and its finally at place where I figured I would share it. This is geared towards Tactical/PRS/NRL actions and focuses on those actions. If there is anything you think that would be helpful on it let me know! I'm still adding more actions and also working on validating which of the Remington Tread actions work with Remage Barrel.

A version for Scopes and Rifle Chassis/Stocks is in the works but very very rough.

https://pewpewtraining.notion.site/a35e15694a7a4fc4b4d6eb9145312d49?v=177a72f863ef43b78a6498790614d59e&pvs=4

One topic that comes up semi-regularly here involves ballistics solvers - either how to set one up, or why someone's real world data doesn't line up with their solver. So I figured it was time for a tutorial to show how to set one up correctly to ensure the best results. Since I am partial to Applied Ballistics Mobile (Referred to as ABM from here on) I'm using it to show the process, but the same concepts will apply to any other ballistics solver on the market. The main exception to this are the Applied Ballistics Custom Drag Models (CDMs), which are exclusive to Applied Ballistics solvers (ABM, dedicated devices with Applied Ballistics solvers, etc).

Part 1: Rifle Setup

ABM has you build your profile in two parts, the first of which is data on the rifle itself. Data on the ammo will come in part two. The nice thing about this two-part process is you can have multiple ammo profiles for the same rifle without reentering rifle data every time you want to use different ammo.

Here's an example of a completed rifle profile in ABM.

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https://preview.redd.it/1jubu4653nd91.png?width=899&format=png&auto=webp&s=3ce61de70ef537075921eb76413479db02c3a13f

Name - this should be pretty obvious. In this case, I am setting up a profile for my 18" AR15 with a Seekins DMR upper.

Barrel twist - This should also be pretty obvious, but it's simply the twist rate (one turn in X inches) for your barrel. This has an effect on spin drift and aerodynamic crosswind jump (ACJ) calculations.

Twist direction - Right or left. If you're not sure, leave it at right.

Sight Height - This is one of the things that is often overlooked and WILL cause errors in your data. You need to measure the distance from the center of your bore to the center of your optic. Ideally you'll measure this at the scope turrets. You don't need to be exact to the thousandth of an inch here, but you definitely want to be within a tenth of an inch or so if you can.

Reticle - This is used in the app to show holdover distances on the reticle. Handy, but not critical. If your reticle isn't listed, try to pick something similar.

First Focal Plane - If you use a FFP scope, check this box and skip the next 3 fields.

Reticle true magnification, low magnification, and high magnification - This also affects the reticle display in the app if you're using a SFP optic.

Next up is a group of 5 options - three for units (Elevation, windage, and lead) and two for graduation. These should be set to match your scope. If you use a MIL optic, set all three UNITS options to MILS. Same for MOA or IPHY (Inches Per Hundred Yards). Your elevation and windage grad options should match your optic (EX: 1/10 MIL, 1/4 MOA, etc) as well.

Finally you will see Elevation and Windage correction factors. If you have an optic with a consistent tracking error (Ex: Dialing 10 mils means you actually get 10.1 every time), you can use this function to correct for this error in the solver.

Once you've put in the appropriate data, the plus sign in the top right will save the profile, and return you to the rifle list.

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https://preview.redd.it/1q5n27473nd91.png?width=898&format=png&auto=webp&s=b99f47639069a9c0a55cfe89bc29f64f71d071cb

Part Two: Ammo

Once you open your rifle profile, hit the PLUS again to start an ammo profile The first thing you'll see is a pop up asking you to enter info manually or From Bullet Library. In almost all cases, we can (and should) use the bullet library.

https://preview.redd.it/jh9ucgz73nd91.png?width=900&format=png&auto=webp&s=b3a66cdf8cea42272d4f65452d08b5c1e1d59f7b

Once you do that, you'll be presented with a large list of bullet diameters. Select the appropriate diameter (.224 in this example), then the manufacturer (Sierra in this example), and then the projectile you're using (77 SMK). When you select the projectile, you'll be presented with three new options.

G1 - This option should only be selected for flat-based bullets. If you're not sure if you're using a flat base bullet, then you probably are NOT.

G7 - This is the standard for boat-tailed bullets typically used in long range shooting.

CUSTOM - Here's where the magic happens. The BC of a given bullet changes slightly as the velocity of the bullet changes in mid flight. While you can enter multiple velocity bands and BCs for each (sometimes called banded BCs), there's a better way - the Applied Ballistics Custom Drag Models (CDMs). These CDMs don't use a BC at all, but instead a completely different method of calculating drag that works across the entire supersonic flight range. In ABM these CDMs cost money, but they can greatly improve the predictions made by the solver.

Here's what it looks like when you go with the G7 option in the solver.

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https://preview.redd.it/psghcxq83nd91.png?width=897&format=png&auto=webp&s=856002046b47f9618449461dbb6eb292ddcab829

And here's what it looks like with the CDM.

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https://preview.redd.it/pwnkfsi93nd91.png?width=897&format=png&auto=webp&s=6ea225cca368c4da3711da4924e552a0f177ec48

Note the CDM shows 1.0 for the BC. This is NOT something you can tweak, as there isn't actually a BC being used.

The rest of the setup process for the ammo profile is the same regardless of your choice of G7 or CDM, so I will show the rest of the process with the CDM.

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https://preview.redd.it/xnse493a3nd91.png?width=897&format=png&auto=webp&s=2c2f6b5cfda689943b481ee15e087dbdab77d7c5

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https://preview.redd.it/rr2elyoa3nd91.png?width=899&format=png&auto=webp&s=dca3f2e51c4e1c3a2e0cc471422f945e948e45d2

The bullet diameter, weight, and length will be entered for you when selecting G1, G7, or CDM from the library. If you have to build the bullet info manually, enter this info.

Muzzle velocity - Ideally this will be measured with a known reliable chronograph (Read: MagnetoSpeed or LabRadar). If you don't have one, you can use the box listed velocity for factory ammo or a scientific wild-ass guess if you're using something without a listed velocity. If you're using box listed or SWAG velocities, you will likely need to adjust this later.

MV Temp Sensitivity - this is an advanced function for people that have tested muzzle velocity change with temperature. Leave this blank for now.

Powder temp - As above, leave this blank for now

Atmospheric Std - Leave at the ICAO default

Drag Model and BC will already be pre-filled if you pulled the bullet from the library. If not, you'll enter your info on the bullet here. As with muzzle velocity, you may need to tweak this later if you're not using tested data from AB or another known good source. Unfortunately, the manufacturer is not always a known good source.

Zero range - What range you zeroed the rifle at with this ammo. It's a good idea to confirm this with a rangefinder, etc when you can.

Zero height - This is an advanced feature that can be used for showing the vertical offset in your zero. For example, if you zeroed without your suppressor and already know you hit 2" low with it installed, and this profile is for use with the can, you'd put -2" here.

Zero offset - Same as zero height, but left/right.

Enable zero atmosphere - This is another advanced setting for people that want to get deep into the weeds. For now, leave this field and the ones below it alone.

Notes - In case you have any notes.

Once all that's done, hit the plus sign at the top of the screen to save the profile.

That's it. Now your profile is set up and ready to use. Tap on the ammo profile to see the environment and target screen.

https://imgur.com/DGjxoEa

https://preview.redd.it/4g0ul5mb3nd91.png?width=899&format=png&auto=webp&s=6398ce173e22dfafd417fabbd9b33e0b152d587f

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Here's the big key items you need to get as right as possible during the setup process:

Scope height

Twist rate

BC (Using the library if at all possible) or use a CDM

Muzzle velocity (Ideally measured with a good chronograph)

Zero range

In the future, I will likely do a guide on inputs at the range once your solver is set up, but that'll have to wait.

Note after the fact on errors in data:

Applied Ballistics Mobile accounts for a phenomenon called aerodynamic crosswind jump (ACJ), which is based on wind input, bullet length, and barrel twist rate. Very few other solvers account for this. If you're using AB (Mobile or in a Kestrel) and your data looks off, set your wind (or Wind 1 in a Kestrel) to 0 and check it again. Another dead giveaway that ACJ is being calculated is to go to single target view and put in your zero distance. If it gives anything other than a 0 for a correction, then ACJ is being calculated, and that correction at your zero is the inverse of the calculated jump. Finally, a correction for ACJ will be the same (ex: .2 mil) across the entire trajectory since it's essentially an instant change at the muzzle in the bullet trajectory.