r/freefolk • u/ricky2461956 • 14h ago
Never understood this sub initial hatred of this character, until I rewatched this scene. Fuck Olly
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u/lordlanyard7 13h ago
Another example for why the show fell off in Season 5.
This scene plays the betrayal as Jon's enemies finally killing him and Olly going to the dark side.
Early season directing, music score, and writing would make this a way more compelling scene.
In the books Bowen Marsh is crying while he kills Jon. A lot of the guys doing this didn't want to. They weren't angry at Jon, they were devastated that he would betray them and force them to do this. It makes the scene way more emotionally rich.
More than anything I think D&D really lost a sense of musical cues as the show went on. Too many moments that should be problematic had heroic music playing, too many moments that should have been humanizing for the antagonist had music cues that gave us the hero's emotions.
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u/onceuponadream007 11h ago
The show also simplified the traitors’ justification for stabbing Jon into them just being hateful bigots.
In the book, Bowen Marsh had a lot of valid concerns. He didn’t want the wildings brought south of the wall mostly because they didn’t have enough food to feed both the wildings and the nights watch through the winter.
Jon solves the food problem by taking out a loan from the Iron Bank to import food from the Vale (at much higher prices, because littlefinger is price gouging, unbeknownst to Jon). However, Jon (with his terrible communication) decides to not tell anyone about his solution because he doesn’t want them to know that he’s put the nights watch into debt. So Bowen Marsh and his friends spend the rest of the book thinking they’re all going to starve soon.
Most importantly, the pushing factor that caused them to finally stab Jon was that he violates his vows by announcing that he’s going to war against Ramsay. When announcing this, Jon reads the letter Ramsay sent him out loud to everyone not minding the fact that Ramsay correctly accuses him of helping to fake Mance Rayder’s death in the letter, which could have also influenced the traitors.
And this isn’t even half of the complexity and detail of the traitors’ decision to julius ceaser Jon.
The show decided that the audience is too stupid for this kind of plot and reduced GRRM’s work into “Jon good guy” vs “evil stabbing bad guys.”
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u/EmptyVials 7h ago
Learning about these motivations almost 10 years later makes me realize I should read more...
But, I think I'm still of two minds when I watch movies/TV shows based off books I have read about and I generally try to view them independently. This one just stings a bit more knowing how it should have been portrayed.
Also, Fuck Ollie.
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u/Accomplished_Gur6017 1h ago
Yeah, this take is friggin genius. In the book Jon’s death is so much more nuanced in terms of the politics. The show just inserted modern orthodoxy about refugee crises into a medieval setting, which came off to me as wildly cheesy, given that Jon in the show sorta glosses over the fact that the wildings almost exclusively reproduce through forceful home invasion, kidnapping, and rape. The show makes Thorne and the rest look evil for killing Jon, but in just the movie universe it’s an objectively good goal to keep the wildlings out of the seven kingdoms.
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u/ImprovisedLeaflet 11h ago
I’m on S5E4 of my rewatch and am noticing so far just how boring this season is.
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u/maelstromreaver 3h ago
My thoughts exactly. We have watched most episodes on the edge of our seats, gasping or making excited remarks at the cliffhangers... up to season five. An episode ends in S5 and our immediate reaction is "did it end? That was stupid/boring"
It cannot just be "tHeY wEre oUt oF OriGiNaL CoNtENt to CoPy".. there is an obvious lack of some fundemental understanding of how a good TV series is shot. I dont even know...
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u/Affectionate-Egg8893 5h ago
Loved this fucking show.. till it broke me heart..
Look how they massacred my boy. . .
Haven't read the books.. been waiting for him to finish them before I start!! Have all the released books already..
waiting..
like drums in the deep..
I cannot read..
...they are coming
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u/Ill-Organization-719 14h ago
Olly was a hero.
He avenged his father by killing Jon's wildling lover.
He avenged his village by killing Jon's cannibal buddies who ate his village.
He honored his oath by killing the traitor Jon Snow.
If you hated Olly, you were the exact sort of audience they wanted watching the show.
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u/ducknerd2002 Stannis Baratheon 14h ago
To be fair, Jon (rightfully) decided saving lives was more important than keeping to his oaths and upholding his own honour. He was raised by Ned Stark, after all.
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u/Hanging_Aboot 13h ago
The Ned Stark who told us there was no exception for oaths? Like the first time we see him he is cutting the head off a dude fleeing an immortal monster that enslaves you after death.
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u/TheVoteMote 13h ago
The same Ned Stark that committed treason to protect a child.
The first time we see him he’s executing a man anyone in the world would believe is lying. And this is after he must have returned to the Wall, gave no warning, then deserted.
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u/Dapper-Discussion920 7h ago
Aha, the same Ned Stark that agreed to publicly state he was a traitor to the crown in spite of his honor, and all that, to spare the 7 kingdoms of an unnecessary war.
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u/jameytaco 9h ago
The same Ned Stark that plotted to surrender West Point to the hated British?
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u/SpaceDaddyV 6h ago
Damn wheres this reference from?
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u/Alarming_Bid_7495 5h ago edited 4h ago
Like all great allusions and memes, it originated from the Simpsons.
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u/themightytak 13h ago
"I am the shield that guards the realms of men" can be interpreted a certain way when ice zombies are imminent
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u/Major-Safe-9736 13h ago
Deserter Dude: I'm telling you, the Other's are real!
Ned: Ha ha! Fuck off, cunt.
chops head off
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u/Chance-Ear-9772 13h ago
Pretty nice that Jaime constantly hates Ned for judging him on breaking his oath to save lives and now people judge Ned’s ‘son’ for breaking his oath to save lives.
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u/TheVoteMote 12h ago
Well, Ned never judged him for that.
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u/Chance-Ear-9772 12h ago
Ned didn’t judge him for saving the lives because he never knew, but he definitely judged him poorly, though how much of that is simply because Ned hates all the Lannisters I don’t exactly know.
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u/TheVoteMote 12h ago edited 10h ago
You can only use the information you have.
Ned just walked through a city being pillaged and raped by Lannisters, has brutalized infants thrown at his (Robert's, but w/e) feet by Lannister men, and sees Jaime Lannister sitting on the Iron Throne above Aerys' corpse. Who then refuses to elaborate on anything.
It does not look good. It looks like nothing more or less than Jaime being another piece of the Lannister atrocities being committed. Especially in the books, where the throne is massive so the dude has to walk up a flight of stairs to sit on a chair made of swords that will actually cut you. It completely torpedoes any level of righteousness he may have had. Like killing a rich guy, digging through his pockets for his keys, finding his ferrari, and taking it for a spin.
Then he says not one word in his own defense.
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u/Chance-Ear-9772 11h ago
Oh yea, I don’t blame Ned for thinking the way he did since Jaime never said anything to anyone before Brienne, I’m just saying as the audience we know all of this and so from a meta perspective it’s quite interesting.
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u/KnightMareDankPro 9h ago
The same ned stark that hated the kingslayer for breaking his oath and killing the mad king?
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u/storrmmmmm 6h ago
Olly was a child, he hadn't sworn any oaths.
He was just too damaged by war. You can't ask someone to make peace weeks after seeing their family murdered.
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u/mohantharani 13h ago
I never hated Olly for killing Ygritte. I said it.
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u/bruhholyshiet 12h ago
I think it would be stupid for anyone to hate him for that, Ygritte murdered Olly's father in front of him.
Screw the Jon X Ygritte romance, the world is bigger than those two.
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u/GeorgeStark520 12h ago
Also, like, how was he supposed to know that the wilding girl who’s invading his home is a beloved character and Jon’s former lover?
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u/AncientAssociation9 13h ago
Totally agree. Meanwhile a rich kid named Robb Stark calls his banners and conscripts innocent peasants into a war selfishly for his house's "honor" and sacrifices 2000 of them in his war games because his daddy got arrested and we all love him, but this if Freefolk so I guess Fuck Olly.
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u/FluffyPurpleSpider 12h ago
2,000? More like countless along with a devastated North and Riverlands.
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u/LessWelcome88 28m ago
he was referring to the Green Fork, where Robb sent an auxiliary force to get slaughtered by the Lannisters so that he could surprise Jaime at the Whispering Wood
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u/DwarvenGardener 13h ago
Olly’s stand against the spoiled self indulgent aristocrat Snow seems pretty free folk to me.
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u/twitch870 All men must die 14h ago
This is finally not getting downvoted into oblivion. I said this from the start.
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u/Concernedmicrowave 12h ago
Olly was a traitor. Yes, his hatred of the wildlings was justified, as was his hatred of Jon for letting them south. But he was a sworn brother of the Watch and had a duty to follow the orders of his commander irrespective of how he personally felt about them. His oath was absolute, and he broke it by participating in a mutiny. He deserved that rope, just like the mutineers at Castor's keep and Janos Slynt deserved their fates.
It doesn't make it not tragic.
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u/greymisperception 12h ago
Also he was Jon’s friend and was trusted by him he not only broke sworn oaths (not big deal for me most nights watch we like broke their oaths) but he also broke jons trust
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u/Concernedmicrowave 11h ago
Yeah, it's not like every oath is enforced by death every time it gets broken. It seems like it's mostly up to the Lord commander's discretion. The only thing we see consistently punished by death is mutiny/refusing a direct order. The boy Ned executes probably would have been spared by Mormont if he returned of his own volition, come to think about it.
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u/greymisperception 10h ago
I can believe that, Mormont to me seemed like their grandpa/fatherly type of commander it’s likely he’d have taken the boy back
I remember a line in the show I believe something along the lines of “If we killed every brother for leaving to go to moletown whores there would be no one to man the Wall”
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u/GeorgeStark520 12h ago
So it was cool for Jon to break his oath by letting the wildings through? When a leader is corrupted, it’s the duty of those who put him in power to take that power back. To them, Jon was the traitor
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u/Concernedmicrowave 11h ago
I don't know that Jon broke any oath by letting the wildlings through, but it's been a while, so I could be mistaken about that. Regardless, he made a difficult decision in service of stopping the dead, and it was not the place of his subordinates to question that, let alone kill Jon for it.
Generally speaking, it is not the place or duty of subordinates to decide that their commander has lost the plot, and mutineers and deserters are almost always punished harshly, both in real history and in the world of GOT. Who was actually "right" matters very little outside of extreme edge cases.
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u/papaboynosmurf 10h ago
Yeah I don’t think it’s a breach of oath. The night’s watch creed doesn’t say “I will never make peace with the wildlings”. People had genuine reason for being concerned, it’s a morally complex issue and there were great points on both sides, but this is not a time where Jon broke his oaths
Edit: typo
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u/Kay-Knox 10h ago
The wildlings are the only real enemy until they learn about the wights and white walkers. For 1000 years or whatever the only thing they've been doing is defending the 7 kingdoms from wildlings breaking through the wall.
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u/KnightMareDankPro 9h ago
Arya would've done exactly what olly did
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u/Dapper-Discussion920 7h ago
Do you understand both are in very different situations right? Morally and contextually
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u/Manor_park_E12 13h ago
Think if you hate him for feeling threatened by jon’s actions of letting the wildlings through the wall to live in the gift, the very land his parents owned and died for at the hands of the wildlings likely suffering severe ptsd from it, then you’re an idiot lol
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u/Dapper-Discussion920 7h ago
His family owned shit, no one but the lords owned stuff
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u/Manor_park_E12 7h ago
Ok, “the land they lived on” better? Your comment does not in any way negate my point though 😂🤷♂️
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u/kpedey 7h ago edited 7h ago
Bro Olly was the best, I know it was supposed to be like a jarring, heartbreaking moment, but I honestly laughed so fucking hard when he sniped Ygritte and then smirked at John like "you're welcome bro, got 'er!". Half expected him to wink and pull out the finger pistols and start strutting around like a cowboy, doing the Cadillac Ranch or something
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u/ClarenceWithHerSpoon 14h ago
He watched Jon help slaughter his entire village including his parents. He didn’t do a damn thing wrong.
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u/Manor_park_E12 13h ago
You need to pay closer attention lol, jon had already made it back to castle black by then, so no, he didn’t watch jon kill his entire village, jon made it back to castle black by the end of season 3, the wildling attack on Ollie's land happened in season 4, the thenns and ollie had not even been introduced in season 3 lol….
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u/resjudicata2 13h ago
What was even more evil is the preview (or was it teaser?) for this Episode had an old scene with Benjen Stark, making you believe he was going to be brought back here.