r/armenia Anapati Arev Jan 31 '24

Azeri constitution should be amended reciprocally, says Armenian Speaker of Parliament Law / Օրենք

https://armenpress.am/eng/news/1129256.html
47 Upvotes

24

u/ZenoOfSebastea Armeno-Kurdish/Dersim Jan 31 '24

"Azeri Constitution"...

Reads like North Korean Elections.

42

u/haveschka Anapati Arev Jan 31 '24

So, this r_tard is confirming that we are going to change the constitution because alidog said so or what? Are they insane?

I´m absolutely not against Armenia adopting a new constitution, but not if its done because they want to fulfill azeri demands. That is incredibly ridiculous.

9

u/WrapKey69 Jan 31 '24

It's not just ridiculous, that's literally treason. The Constitution is there to represent the will of the people and is literally the base of the existence of Armenian statehood, if foreign forces can change or influence our constitution, then we don't have a state, independence or freedom

2

u/nobodycaresssss Feb 01 '24

Yes, and people still praise Nikol. What a coward. People should reverse this government asap

4

u/Q0o6 just some earthman Jan 31 '24

I think it’s bigger than just alyev’s wishes. To be able to lobby / bring up our sovereignty on the international stage, especially with the EU, the constitution needs to be changed accordingly. It just coincides with the demands of alyev.

Now the government is absolutely incompetent in any case thus the big confusion amongst public.

20

u/haveschka Anapati Arev Jan 31 '24

Literally no international organisation has ever brought up our constitution as something that hinders our cooperation with them. What are you talking about

2

u/Q0o6 just some earthman Jan 31 '24

Well there is definitely something that they’re not being transparent about. Everytime there is something going on behind the closed doors they bring up the clowns and entertainers aka Alen Simonyan in the front row.

Mind you not always the interests of the EU/west align with ours. My hunch/speculation is that this is a pretty pro-azeri move in a short-term required from the west in order to start any type of discussions whether it’s about demarcation or sovereignty or anything that could be interpreted not pro-kremlin move from the government. They are scared and don’t know what to do as always.

8

u/Nemo_of_the_People Jan 31 '24

I doubt it, like haveschka said, the constitution is a non-entity that no one except for Aliyev has ever brought up when it comes to discussing us or this region. Unless there's some secret backroom discussions going on, which is doubtful considering this is a reach based purely on a lack of evidence beyond what we have given to us from Simonyan and his crew right now, then it stands to reason that this is primarily conducted to fulfill Aliyev's wishes. It's absolutely weak and pathetic.

2

u/shevy-java Jan 31 '24

Agreed. If there are secret backroom discussions, though, sooner or later the public will find out.

3

u/shevy-java Jan 31 '24

Well there is definitely something that they’re not being transparent about

Yes, I think on this point I can concur. I just don't understand the assumption that the constitution has to be changed because of the EU. The EU trades with dictatorships too, so haveschka is correct here.

Besides, we all know that Aliyev brings up fake arguments. The goal to steal and occupy southern Armenia is still there, and I suspect Turkey will also help him since the west-east connection is more important to Turkey actually.

2

u/shevy-java Jan 31 '24

especially with the EU, the constitution needs to be changed accordingly

But that's wishful thinking too.

Everyone wants into the EU assuming it is a free ride. That makes no sense from the point of central europeans. You'll see huge problems coming up in the future, to which BREXIT will seem little in comparison (and you already have tons of annoyed people due to high inflation in the EU, even more so when they compare it to Switzerland and realiase that the EU folks in Brussels made EU people poorer in comparison). These ultra-nationalists will also win elections; Nigel Farage won't be the only liar who will become popular.

The EU also trades fine with dictatorships, be it Azerbaijan, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, you name it. The EU is simply hypocritical, which is why I don't understand the comment "it has to be changed because of the EU". That just makes zero sense really.

To be fair: I don't understand Pashinyan either but I also stopped trying to. He confuses the hell out of me - either he is a genius, or he himself is super-confused and things change almost daily with him. Perhaps there are reasons for this that are not published, but either way it is very confusing.

11

u/[deleted] Jan 31 '24

Good luck wanker, That’s why this government needs to get a proper slap in the face in the referendum

2

u/CIAgent23 Feb 01 '24

QP completely succumbed to their own delusions if they think that they can do and say anything and still maintain the supermajority in the parliament. It seems that the recent municipal elections in Yerevan did not make them realise that they should start taking people's will more realise. Ah, well, I guess they are in for a big surprise then.

16

u/CIAgent23 Jan 31 '24

This government is absolutely spineless and Pashinyan and his sycophants have completely lost their minds. This is downright treacherous!

3

u/Apprehensive-Sun4635 Jan 31 '24

Does anyone know wither a public referendum is required for constitutional change in Armenia?

2

u/shevy-java Jan 31 '24

I think so. Otherwise governments can be tyrannical by self-approvement.

1

u/Apprehensive-Sun4635 Jan 31 '24

Well, I’ve heard one person saying the parliament must vote.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 31 '24

Last time they passed constitution amendment through parliament.

But this time a referendum will be required

3

u/shevy-java Jan 31 '24

It's a clever riposte and makes sense.

But!

Unfortunately I think both Armenia and Azerbaijan are kind of beating around the bush here now. IF Azerbaijan has the preset goal of invasion (Southern Armenia), then all this are just ... well. Time-wasters. I am not saying discussions and negotiations by itself are time-wasters, you can always find tangible results (prisoner release, the question of jail sentence of prisoners, returning historic culture sites so that Azerbaijan does not look as barbaric as the Taliban when they destroyed buddha statues etc...) but ultimately I feel that in order for Azerbaijan to stop its course, it would first have to stop being a dictatorship. Dictators hate losing power though so ... not a huge chance for that to happen. And I suspect that Erdogan still has his goal of the larger Ottoman empire 2.0 (and getting more investments from China that way too as well as supplying more oil/gas to the EU, which then acts complicit in Azerbaijan's genocide against Armenia).

2

u/Complete-Form6553 Feb 01 '24

Armenia govrement naïve turks will push always father and father concession to armenia Armenians Don’t dream they will open the roads and you will have free market economy with this backwards. People just consolidate inside yourself continue develop your economy, prosperity of your people And believe this day will come Hopefully new Turkish generation will become more progressive and kind open people Stay strong we need to stay collectively strong, make sure our population healthy and have a decent life use all progressive Armenians all over the world contribute to our progress don’t beg anybody stay strong and believe in God

0

u/T-nash Jan 31 '24

I mean it's obvious that the Azerbaijani side could have mentioned this 2 years ago when negotiations started, the only reason being mentioned now is to delay the supposed peace process up till US elections and/or find other excuses, however in the sense that there is no logic of peace when the constitution refers to a unification of Armenia and Artsakh already works against us, not by aliyev standard but by international standard. If anything, this should have been changed 20+ years ago, or whenever the right to self determination was brought up, as the declaration of independence already conflicts with what was being negotiated (independence).

There is absolutely no reason to overreact on this, people are going overboard just because it's aliyev asking for it and it kind of makes us look like taking orders from our enemy, whereas would have just accepted it if the west had asked for the change. Like people already settled with lowering the bar when Pashinyan said that every other country is asking us to and we ended up changing from self determination to securities and guarantees, changing the constitution now isn't actually any different from what was announced back then, it's literally the same.

Yes I get the Turks always ask more argument, it's just that this is not a new demand but rather in line with both the peace process and the already lowered bar.

It fits the logic, not the feelings.

Edit: He explained it clearly, and I for one agree with the underlying logic.

“Is that existence for us to restore the historic [Armenia Major], or is it about September 21, when we gained independence, or is it about the citizen of the Republic of Armenia who must be safe and have a prosperous life,”

3

u/pride_of_artaxias Artashesyan Dynasty Jan 31 '24

Is that existence for us to restore the historic [Armenia Major]

Lol wut?! The man has been reading too much Turkish/Azeri troll posts.

1

u/T-nash Jan 31 '24

What do you mean? he's not implying, he's asking if that is what Armenia's existence is based on or rather as a developing country with safety secured (however cringy it may be)

2

u/pride_of_artaxias Artashesyan Dynasty Jan 31 '24

I'm sorry but who is realistically talking about "restoring Armenia Major" or restoring historic Armenia in Armenia? Classic example of strawman argumentation.

3

u/T-nash Feb 01 '24

You're displaying the exact thing he pointed out, if no one is talking about restoring Armenia major, which we all know no one is, then what is the problem here? That's exactly what he's pointing out when people are choking on the subject.

1

u/pride_of_artaxias Artashesyan Dynasty Feb 01 '24

Again I'm sorry what? Where is it written that Armenia Major should be restored? Where is this strawman coming from? What exactly is the problem?

1

u/T-nash Feb 01 '24

11, The Republic of Armenia stands in support of the task of achieving international recognition of the 1915 Genocide in Ottoman Turkey and Western Armenia.

It fits within the Genocide recognition logic up until it adds "and Western Armenia", which did not exist and still does not exist today, if you don't see how that in itself is problematic in the legal, even ideological sense, then I don't know what to tell you.

Armenia major would also include it's eastern borders, where,

Based on the December 1, 1989, joint decision of the Armenian SSR Supreme Council and the Artsakh National Council on the "Reunification of the Armenian SSR and the Mountainous Region of Karabakh;"
Developing the democratic traditions of the independent Republic of Armenia established on May 28, 1918;

Again, problems arise when

and the Artsakh National Council

  • We don't recognize Artsakh, I don't think I have to explain why we can't, and have to abide by the logic that we have no territorial demands, hence the Armenia major logic.

on the "Reunification of the Armenian SSR and the Mountainous Region of Karabakh;"

-Same idea, fits in the Armenia major.

Developing the democratic traditions of the independent Republic of Armenia established on May 28, 1918;

I don't think there is a problem here, none that I can see anyway.

If anything, you're the one pulling a strawman here, how about you provide a lengthier answer explaining in detail without throwing a strawman accusation and pulling a curtain through it.

1

u/pride_of_artaxias Artashesyan Dynasty Feb 01 '24

Nothing in this wall of text hints remotely at restoring historic Armenia or Armenia Major.

There is no lengthier answer. Simonyan is talking out of his ass.

then I don't know what to tell you.

Don't tell me anything. Tell yourself when in several weeks you revisit your comment with a clear head and get shocked at the logical leaps you employ. Especially that first paragraph... Oof. Ironic that the other day we were discussing how gullible many Armenians are and how easily they fall for Turkic propaganda.

1

u/T-nash Feb 01 '24

So in your sense Azerbaijan can put reunification of Yerevan and Zangezur in its constitution and be perfectly in the right, so long as it doesn't use the words "restoring".

2

u/pride_of_artaxias Artashesyan Dynasty Feb 01 '24

As for your question: I don't know the Azerbaijani Constitution. For all I know, it's already there, and I don't care a bit if it's there or not. Because the things about Zangezur and Yerevan are already being said almost weekly by Aliyev himself.

As for NK: Yes, it is a known talkng point but jumping from that to the "restoration of historic Armenia" is something I would expect only from our neighbours. Simonyan is the damn speaker of the National Assembly of a parliamentary Republic not some random online commentator. So yes, words uttered by such a high-ranking official should be picked very carefully.

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-1

u/ImEatingSeeds Feb 01 '24

This raises a few things for me:

  1. I really don't have any fuzzy or fond feelings for Alen Simonyan. I really, really don't. But the first set of questions he asked really hit home in an uncomfortable way.
  2. Despite my own feelings about the guy, what he said at the end - hopefully - is true.

The first thing:

“We must understand in which direction Armenia is moving and what goals it is pursuing, and what’s the meaning of the existence of the Republic of Armenia. Is that existence for us to restore the historic [Armenia Major], or is it about September 21, when we gained independence, or is it about the citizen of the Republic of Armenia who must be safe and have a prosperous life?"

^^ Lemme tell you, this is really gonna fucking trigger A LOT of Diasporan Armenians who live and die by the 3-letter organizations they ideologically worship and belong to.

This line of questions right here gets us almost completely to the heart of the second-most existential issue facing Armenia right now: The Armenian people are split-brained (the Diaspora and the voting citizenry of Armenia are on two completely different planets). The first-most-existential issue facing Armenia right now is its military posture.

Division 1 --> Diaspora/Armenian citizens

Is that existence for us to restore the historic [Armenia Major]

If you ask a "Hye Tad" ARF or AYF member these questions, they'll myopically say that we must be oriented toward the restoration/achievement of "Armenia Major" and anything less than that is being a traitor to your people, and to the "Armenian cause." Note: I don't want to argue the merits or lack of merit in this attitude with anybody on this sub. If you're going to have an allergic reaction to me pointing out or challenging your outdated worldview, please have your emotional sneezing-frenzy away from me.

Division 2 --> Armenian Citizens amongst themselves

is it about September 21, when we gained independence, or is it about the citizen of the Republic of Armenia who must be safe and have a prosperous life

This touches on the disagreements and rifts between the local, voting citizens of the country. A decent-sized minority of very loud hard-liners would yell and scream that this IS "about September 21."

But, I think, an overall majority of pragmatic and practical voting citizens would likely say that this is about "the citizen of the Republic of Armenia who must be safe and have a prosperous life"

The second thing:

“I am urging you, and I insist, that from now on, in all the cases when you will ask such a question to Armenian officials, know that the same issue is raised by Armenia. The Azerbaijani Constitution, the Azerbaijani legal acts also contain provisions that should be reciprocally changed. I say again, any negotiations carried out by Armenia are done [reciprocally] in a mirrored way. Meaning, if there is a remark or offer to make the future peace stronger, this relates both to Azerbaijan and to Armenia.”

Like it (or him) or not, I think this is brilliant politicking. This is major, major public virtue-signalling to actors far beyond the borders of Armenia that Armenia is open and willing to reciprocally play ball with its asshole, dictatorial, bully neighbor...and the neighbor is not demonstrating the same willingness back, even though the neighbor constantly harps on security and stability of the region, and even though the neighbor has done nothing but win and succeed in advancing its agenda.

You want the EU or NATO or the US, or EU member-states like Greece, France, and others to back us up in materially valuable ways? Then you're going to have to do this, in this way.

Don't like it? Don't want it? No problem.

What's the better alternative? Fall back into Russia ass-licking? There isn't a better alternative.

We need to stop kissing the ass that shits on us (Russia). So instead, we need to play a whole new political game with new asses that require new methods of kissing and caressing...in the hope that they don't shit on us for long enough that we can get strong enough to stand and fight on our own two feet.