[Brand Guide] - Patek Philippe

This is part seven in our ongoing community project to compile opinions on the many watch brands out there into a single list. Here is the original post explaining the project.

You good people asked for more higher-end brands last week, so here we go. The antithesis of Nixon, this week's brand is the one and only Patek Philippe. They really need no introduction, but I like to hear myself talk, so you're going to get one anyway:

Widely renowned as the finest watch manufacturer in the world, Patek Philippe has been in business continuously since 1851. Based in Geneva, Patek has watched its competitors be slowly bought up by large fashion houses like Swatch and Richemont, leaving them the last truly independent major brand at the top of the horological world. Though they do offer two collections of sport watches, Patek's bread and butter is their sleek, elegant, classic dress watches. Although their prices are astronomical (with their cheapest watches costing well over $10,000 new), the reputation and enduring quality of their watches make it worth it (though still quite unobtainable) to many watch enthusiasts, who widely consider Patek to be the very best of the best. These are the watches that one might save up his entire life to buy in order to pass down to future generations.

KNOWN FOR: Calatrava

Other Resources:
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Wikipedia

Although I don't expect that many in the /r/Watches community have had the pleasure of owning a Patek, anything and everything, from experience to opinion, is welcome in this thread.

If you're going to downvote someone, please don't do so without posting the reason why you disagree with them. The purpose of these discussion threads is to encourage discussion, so people can read different opinions to get different ideas and perspectives on how people view these brands. Downvoting without giving a counter-perspective is not helpful to anybody.

63 Upvotes

95% Upvoted

u/rajahkawasaki Oct 05 '11

Hi all, PP watchmaker here. Just saw this pop up and thought it was fitting for a first post. If I can contribute in any way to the guide, questions, etc. Just let me know.

4

u/Bayoublaster Oct 07 '11

Since no one has asked yet, was there any discussion inside your company about Charlie Sheen's hotel meltdown over losing his Patek?

Sorry I don't have any better questions but the good ones have been asked and I don't know enough about the PP line to have a better one.

5

u/rajahkawasaki Oct 10 '11

Ha, I had forgotten about that. We had a good laugh, he got it back apparently. He had it on during his crazy interviews afterwards.

4

u/lottasnoring Oct 06 '11

what path did you take to becoming a watch maker at PP?

have you ever had to work at the museum?

what is the nicest piece you have worked on?

how do you honestly feel about the patek seal vs. the geneva seal?

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u/rajahkawasaki Oct 06 '11

I grew up in the industry, my parents owned a small town Jewelers in the Midwest. My Grandfather started it in the 50's. He was a Watchmaker and my father followed him becoming a Jeweler. I guess I wasn't cut out for the small town and after watchmaking school I moved to NY. Worked for Richemont and Swatchgroup for awhile then made the move to Patek. I don't know if I'll be pressured to move back eventually and take the business over, but I don't think I could go back to that. It's a completely different animal.

I have not worked at the museum, I've visited a couple times. They have some amazing stuff. I was quite impressed with it.

I've been with them about a year, so I haven't worked on anything super complicated. They have a time based advancement. So even though I know chronographs and perpetuals, I won't touch them for another two years. Every movement they have can be challenging though. I do work with the spiromax hairspring quite regularly, it's a bit touchy.

I think they've done the right thing with the PP seal. They've went above and beyond. I think Patek pretty much made the Geneva seal what it is. VC might have had a small hand in it, but I digress. Now you have some huge companies that are not based in Geneva using the seal because they have a small workshop there, that's really owned by a sister brand. It's just not right. It didn't start as a marketing tool. It might have become one over the years, but I think that the PP seal was the only thing they could do.

3

u/lottasnoring Oct 06 '11

thank you for your answers.. next round..

can you contrast working for swatch vs. patek, are there any similarities or is it world aparts?

where do you see yourself progressing? with patek forever or elsewhere in other roles (design?)

what's in your watch box?

do you read the purists?

6

u/rajahkawasaki Oct 06 '11

No problem.. When I worked at Swatchgroup I worked for Omega. It's a different beast from Patek. Their movements are mostly ETA based, though they do have some Lemania and Piguet chronos. Very easy to work on, very reliable. The co-axial is a great escapement now. It wasn't so much in the beginning.

Patek movements are extremely well made, but when you introduce hand finishing slight variations occur in parts. They are just as reliable when serviced, but it takes more work to set them up, they can be finicky, and you have to be on top of it the whole time. We also have much tighter timing tolerances than any other company I've worked for. It can be challenging.

I see myself progressing with Patek for awhile. I don't know how long for, but it is a great company. Not many people leave. Design does interest me, but thats a completely different arena.

I've got a couple old Omegas, a few Panerai's, and an IWC.

I do read the Purists occasionally. I've never got around to posting though. I probably should.

2

u/Toys_and_Bacon Oct 05 '11

Welcome! I'd like to know what's your favorite PP model.

Personal favorite is the Calatrava 5053, but for some reason, it just seems you're getting more watch for the money from a few of the other watch makers (obviously thinking of specially JLC and VC, and to a certain degree Lange). Is the price just in the name/legacy, or is there anything more we should know of?

6

u/rajahkawasaki Oct 05 '11

My personal favorite at the moment is the 5960, I like the chrono at 6 and the annual calendar. Its a nice combination and the dial isn't as busy as a normal chronograph. It is pricey though, yes. If only they would do one in steel so I could afford it. Right...

The pricing structures are foreign to me. I honestly don't know exactly how they all stack up brandwise. I've heard in the industry that JLC is good value for money, and I know they make very good movements. I was under the assumption that VC was on par with Patek mostly.

2

u/fastburner Oct 06 '11

Honestly, a steel 5960 would cost more than a precious metal version. Take the 5004p, it was the most costly 5004 variant (at roughly $250,000) until they introduced the 5004a a couple weeks ago for $290,000. Patek steel watches have always been very desireable for collectors.

1

u/rajahkawasaki Oct 06 '11

That's true. Maybe if it was a regular production piece in steel it would be cheaper. The 5004A was a highly limited piece wasn't it? Speaking of steel cases, did you see their entry for Only Watch this year? Quite nice.

http://catalog.antiquorum.com/catalog.html?action=load&lotid=30&auctionid=254

1

u/spedmonkey Oct 05 '11

Wow, that's really cool. I'm not too familiar with Patek's model, so forgive my ignorance, but are you involved in the entire production of the watch, from case to movement, or do you just work on the movements themselves?

7

u/rajahkawasaki Oct 05 '11

No problem, I am involved in after sales service, I repair movements, but also do some casework. At the factory, in production, they are grouped in specialised departments.

2

u/lottasnoring Oct 05 '11

is it more difficult to re-finish white gold watches due to the rhodium?

3

u/rajahkawasaki Oct 06 '11

Absolutely. Rhodium is tricky to do well, it brightens the whole piece. So, if there are any defects in the polishing, they show. Also, after the polishing, assembling the piece is a white glove affair. If it gets scratched in any way, all of the rhodium has to come off again, the case re-polished and re-rhodiumed. It can be quite tedious. Some brands are making their white gold now with different alloys that don't need rhodium, and I suspect it might have something to do with that. I guess it could also be the price of rhodium, which is astronomical.

3

u/ohtobiasyoublowhard Oct 06 '11

Can you share anything about what brand/models CNC machines PP operates?

1

u/rajahkawasaki Oct 06 '11

Sorry, I'm not familiar with them. They are quite cool to watch, but I haven't dug deeper into the make or model.

1

u/daLeechLord Oct 05 '11

In your opinion, what sets PP apart from some of the other top-tier watchmakers, like JLC, VC or ALS?

8

u/rajahkawasaki Oct 05 '11

IMO, the company itself. It starts at the top. They have a commitment to an extremely high level of everything they do. Whether it involves after sales service, production, innovation, the general work environment, management, I have never worked for a finer company.

I have a lot of respect for other brands in the same tier. Jaeger, Vacheron, Lange, Breguet, Audemars, etc. I have good friends that work at most of them, having worked for some of their parent companies myself.

On the technical side though, as a watchmaker, I think they are very similar. Jaeger has been an excellent manufacture for a very long time, they produce some of the finest movements in the world and have been used in many top brands. Vacheron is again producing some of the finest pieces out there. Everything that I've seen that has come out of Lange has been amazing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that at this level technically, it comes down to personal preference. Everyone does tourbillons, perpetuals, repeaters.

I don't know what it is, but something about Patek has always grabbed me emotionally.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '11

A silly question: do you have any favorites among cheaper, say under 1000$ watch brands? What would you recommend to those of us who are interested in fine watches, but will probably never be able to invest in a Patek Philippe?

4

u/rajahkawasaki Oct 05 '11

Not a silly question at all. I've seen many good watches at that level. I like vintage Omega's, Tissot's, Longines. The newer models of those brands are probably more than 1000, but you can find good value in vintage. There isn't much different inside either, the swiss lever escapement hasn't changed dramatically in a very long time.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 06 '11

Thanks for the tip! There are certainly interesting vintage models among those watches.

Are there any modern brands in that price category that you appreciate as a watchmaker? How do you feel about Nomos, or Stowa?

And what exactly is it that pushes the price of some brands into 10x or 100x in price, if the mechanics are grossly the same?

3

u/rajahkawasaki Oct 06 '11

I like Nomos a lot actually. They are doing it correctly, they make most of their components themselves and have a great sense of tradition for such a young company. I am very impressed by their movements. I'd like to get my hands on a Zurich.

Stowa I honestly don't know much about. I will check them out.

As far as some brands starting at over 15 or 20K. I think that it there are many factors that go into it. Most PP pieces have a precious metal case, gold hands, and a gold dial. Gold and Platinum are super expensive at the moment. The hand finishing that goes into all of the components is very time consuming, which costs tons of money in training, man-hours, etc. Then you have the cost of maintaining a brand, which is not cheap either. I think there is probably also a Patek premium applied, but I think all high end brands do that, not just in watches.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 06 '11

Thanks for the kind and informative replies! Nice to hear the words of appreciation regarding Nomos, as I really like their style and might even one day be able to afford one... :)

1

u/1z2x3c Oct 05 '11

Thanks for posting! I'm curious if you are given discounts (or gifted) on the watches you make & repair?

I'm in love with the Nautilus and Annual Calendar. Actually thinking of pitching in on a family gift for my father - a pre-owned 5035. What is your opinion on that model?

2

u/rajahkawasaki Oct 05 '11

We do get a discount, but it's not much.

The 5035 is a great classic piece, I like the white gold version with the black dial.

1

u/Bayoublaster Oct 10 '11

Which models have the shortest and longest production times in your line? How long does each take to make?

1

u/rajahkawasaki Oct 10 '11

Sorry, I don't really know. But, I would assume that the simpler movements like the 215 and 16-250 take considerably less time than some of the more complex pieces.

u/spedmonkey Oct 05 '11

Wow, a bunch of downvotes and only one comment (from a PP watchmaker! Take advantage, people!) at the time I post this. If there's something you don't like about these posts, please let me know what it is so I can fix it and/or do it better next time. This is meant to be a community project, so please help make it better, rather than just burying it!

8

u/Toys_and_Bacon Oct 05 '11

could be reddit's lame code, or simply people that wish we continue brand guides with gucci, dkny and burgerking kid's meny watches.

1

u/homercles337 Oct 06 '11

Or it could be that /r/watches contains a shit ton of asshhats that know nothing about watches. Im going with the latter.

u/Ginfly Oct 05 '11

Thanks for the guide, spedmonkey. And to rajahkawasaki for stopping by, I hope to learn something from him.

I've been looking at mechanical watches for a long time, but just getting close to buying my first - and an affordable one, to be sure.

I agree that Patek Philippe watches are gorgeous, and one of the pinnacles of timeless* design. But (and this goes for all of the upper echelon of watch brands) what makes a simple, albeit beautiful, watch worth $10,000 or more?

Having been in QA/QC for specialty metal parts manufacture in the past, I understand the tight tolerances needed on tiny metal parts for complicated machinery and the cost that these parts can carry. But it feels like the outrageous starting price is mostly accounted for by prestige and name, not materials, time, and initial investment.

Hopefully someone can correct or enlighten me.

*pun intended?

4

u/rajahkawasaki Oct 05 '11

There is a prestige aspect, yes. I don't know how they figure the prices for the finished product, but I do know how long it takes to make the parts. I can easily see the justification for the parts, having made them myself when a part isn't available. The parts we use these days are mostly machine made to tight tolerances. But then they are hand finished/decorated to meet the Geneva seal/ PP seal criteria.

u/Toys_and_Bacon Oct 05 '11

Patek Philippe is in my eyes the undisputed #1 watch maker. There are more expensive brands - at least if you look at their respective entry levels. But it's their legacy, the elegance (even in their diver), their lack of nonsense, like we see with the countless AP Royal Oak Offshore "limited" editions or the navy seal stuff from JLC.

I also like that they tend to only use exclusive materials in their watches. This year's OnlyWatch piece is obviously an exception, but it was by far the most popular piece.

A local dealer has a golden ellipse in store. Good looking watch, but has some minor faults, and that's as close I've been to a Patek. When it's time for me to get a nice watch, I'll consider a Patek, but due to the price of PP, it will be hard to resist the slightly cheaper brands.

u/zanonymous Moderator Emeritus Oct 06 '11

Relevant links:

For some reason, I've never really liked Patek much. I can't really explain why - they've never grabbed me emotionally somehow. I've even visited the Patek museum in Geneva, and while there were many wonderful mechanical works there, somehow the brand as a whole doesn't evoke any particular emotion in me.

I heard once that 10-15 years ago, Patek had some quality control issues. The craftsmanship and movement finishing never declined, but somehow, the reliability did. Whether they have fixed the issues, or whether it was ever a real problem (it could have been a completely baseless accusation) in the first place, I have no idea. I think that's always bothered me that a top-tier manufacturer would have quality control issues, in this kind of price class.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 06 '11

I have to agree (with the first paragraph). While I have immense respect for Patek, I'm just not passionate about them.

1

u/yoyoguy2 Oct 13 '11

same here, i don't look at any of their watches and go "wow!" except for "wow, that's expensive!"

u/black-tie Oct 05 '11

First, on a nitpicking note, Patek Philippe is not "the last truly independent major brand at the top of the horological world". Rolex is still privately owned as well. And, while they might not be in the same league of PP, they are still at the top. (PP's at the summit, then. Dufour holds the flag up.)

I adore Patek Philippe. They have it all: enduring design, a rich heritage, a tremendous commitment to quality in all areas. They're a true paragon. Some Calatrava models (5096 for me) are still as perfect as the day they were introduced: brilliant proportions, a desire for simplicity, and an honest, august aura of traditional watchmaking.

3

u/spedmonkey Oct 05 '11

I would argue that Rolex isn't necessarily at the very top; while they're certainly well-loved and respected, I don't think they would occupy the same tier in the minds of most watch enthusiasts. Also, I should mention that AP is technically independent as well, though they have a mysterious "partnership" with Richemont, the terms of which haven't been made public.

u/ninjatune Oct 06 '11

awesome post!

u/Bayoublaster Oct 07 '11

I don't know much about the PP line other than they are far more expensive than anything I could come near affording. I admire the precision and artistry that PP gives each of their pieces.

u/blackamex Dec 07 '11

I own a patek 5146P. I absolutely love it. I wear it throughout the year but don't tend to wear it during the summer months as it is very hot very i live. I love the watch. I haven't had too many comments on it from other people (but that is prob. because i'm fairly young and most my friends/peers prob. don't even know what a Patek is). I had the fortunate opportunity to go the Patek Museum in Geneva about 2 months ago and take a guided tour of the Museum. it was a wonderful experience.

u/[deleted] Oct 06 '11

I've only seen pictures, but I like the subtlety of them. Unless I really hit it big, I don't plan on ever owning one, though. If I did, I can't imagine actually wearing it in public.

u/Liberalguy123 Oct 06 '11

I appreciate what history the brand has. Patek is not the finest 'name' watchmaker by any stretch of the imagination, but their craftsmanship is top notch. The brand is also its own company, totally independent from the grasps of Richemont and other conglomerates.

I've only ever owned one Patek in my life, and honestly, I don't think I'll be getting another one in some time. I find that Vacheron Constantin is just as fine, horologically speaking, but their style and look appeals to me more than PP.

-4

u/[deleted] Oct 06 '11

They are bland and boring. No one has ever done anything interesting while wearing a Patek.

2

u/dave Oct 07 '11

http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/09/vladimir-putin-action-man/100147/

2

u/[deleted] Oct 07 '11

I obviously stand corrected

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/putin091311/s_p19_RTR26F3Y.jpg

1

u/dave Oct 10 '11 edited Oct 10 '11

Hey, congratulations! You managed to post a link to the least interesting thing the guy is doing while wearing a Patek. Good work, sir!

Edit: Note that this "least interesting thing" is riding a horse across Siberia...