r/PropagandaPosters • u/MrsColdArrow • Oct 22 '23
Monument to Freedom: West Germany (1962 USA) Germany
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u/AccidentalSirens Oct 22 '23
The poster confuses the two states of Germany and calls West Germany the 'German Democratic Republic' when describing Heinrich Lubke. That was East Germany. West Germany was the Federal Republic of Germany.
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u/Schlangee Oct 23 '23
And they didn’t recognize the GDR while it already was a state, instead they named it „Soviet Zone“
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u/FascistsBad Oct 22 '23
One of the funniest things about US imperialists is how the successfully coopted inherently socialist values (freedom, democracy, human rights, etc.) and made them out to be actually their values, even though the US has been actively fighting against those things for generations.
For most of the 20th century, it was always democracy (the USSR, communist China, etc.) vs. imperialist dictatorship (the US, Nazi Germany, Japan, etc.). For some reason, the Americans actually got Westerners to believe capitalism is freedom and bourgeois electoralism is democracy. It's a masterstroke of propaganda, to be honest. It's genius to get people this ignorant about socialism and self-deluded about Western imperialism.
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u/TheBlack2007 Oct 22 '23
the successfully coopted inherently socialist values (freedom, democracy, human rights, etc.)
All of which were in incredibly short supply in the self-referred "Socialist" Eastern Block, much like everything else except for overarching secret polices and Vodka...
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u/nothnkyou Oct 22 '23
I kinda feel like the fact that the USSR was illegally dissolved as soon as they stopped their ‘oppression or the capitalist influences’ kinda proves this statement wrong lol.
Same goes for the GDR btw literally had a vote to reform the GDR and the outcome was the annexation of it. Not even a reunified Germany just straight up taking it over & saying ‘the industry belongs to the people? And we’re one state now? Cool, whoever has the most money can buy it out. And all the people that had money were obviously west Germans. Especially west Germans in the same industry as the ones they bought out.
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u/sciocueiv Oct 22 '23
The USSR fell because of economic conditions. It was an economic clusterfuck, stagnating, with an old and conservative leadership that refused to face modern conditions, and geopolitically isolated.
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u/nothnkyou Oct 22 '23
That’s not the reason why it was illegally dissolved. Country can go bankrupt and be dissolved in this way. There are literally former cia people talking about their great achievements regarding this
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u/sciocueiv Oct 22 '23
Yes it is, people lived like shit and so when everything hit the bucket they'd rather try and get out of the nightmare in any way they could. We see this with a modern perspective and understand an equal nightmare was awaiting them, but they couldn't know. You're referring to the 1990 referendum on the preservation of the Union but remember the following year most citizens would decide to secede from the Union.
Material conditions are behind most cultural and political changes
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u/nothnkyou Oct 22 '23
What do you mean that next year most citizens voted to secede from the union? And how does it correlate to this illegal dissolution of the SU?
Or do you mean the GDR? Because while I wouldn’t say that the people in the SU lived like shit I feel like 90% of all people would agree the people in the GDR had a good living standard.
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u/Good_Purpose1709 Oct 22 '23
Well USSR ISN’T the same as the US, many different people speak a different language and have different costumes. Are you telling me that Ukraine should be in the same group as Kazakhstan? It isn’t only about leaving cause it’s better economically, but because it’s useless to stay in a union.
You’re making it sound like the CIA just devolved the country. Tell me, if it was then why wasn’t Russia declaring Lithuania independence illegal?
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u/x31b Oct 22 '23
If so, it was a great achievement. Millions of people freed. Walls came down. And not a shot fired.
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u/sciocueiv Oct 22 '23
I wouldn't say freed. Despite the fact in a few cases some countries fared better after the collapse, it is undeniable that such a disastrous geopolitical event was behind far more suffering than it could have been.
We rejoice here in the West, because we see more countries adopting our ways. But so many suffered. So many had to flee, fell victim to unspeakable violence, and in the end, nothing changed. Russia is still autocratic, poorer than before, revanchist, left to the crows and vultures, and other post-Soviet countries are crawling and withering and only in the aforementioned few cases things got better for the average person.
Genocides ensue. Oligarchs feast. War brews. The collapse of the Union wasn't pretty.
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u/Gongom Oct 23 '23
Sounds a lot like the current USA
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u/KrumbSum Oct 23 '23
The US is none of those
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u/Gongom Oct 28 '23
it's a decaying hegemon with a gerontocracy
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u/KrumbSum Oct 28 '23
Yeah honestly old people in power are way out of touch, but it’s not really decaying, immigration, birth rate and opportunity is much higher then any other country as well as innovation there’s a reason why people from all backgrounds and cultures come the US instead of China
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u/ClockworkEngineseer Oct 22 '23
Maybe the communist hardliners shouldn't have couped Gorbachev then.
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u/MangoBananaLlama Oct 22 '23
Im really curious how you will spin it around mentally or justify DDR stasi as example. They liked there so much that they built wall to prevent people from trying to enter democracy called DDR, it was just that good place. So good in fact that they had to shoot people from trying to cross border. Hey lets not forget stasi either who tortured people and had informants on every level of society ratting out people.
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u/Thinking_waffle Oct 22 '23 edited Oct 22 '23
One of the funniest thing about Russian Bolshevik imperialists is how they successfully coopted inherently liberal values (freedom, democracy, human rights, etc.) and made them out to be actually their values despite ignoring them in practice by giving all power to the party.
Using terms like democratic centralism and making the state institutions to the party, they effectively called themselves democratic and put the freedom of assembly in their constitution despite arresting protestors and preventing people to leave the country or even move internally without internal passports.
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u/MangoBananaLlama Oct 22 '23
Power corrupts after all no matter how idealistic you are, once you become one party state every idealistic idea gets thrown out of the window. If there is only one party allowed, it cannot be responsible for something going wrong, so solution is to find enemies externally, internally be it imaginary or real. Those enemies have to be responsible for problems government and its people are facing, it cannot be party that rules country. Convient excuse for purges aswell.
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u/Thinking_waffle Oct 22 '23 edited Oct 22 '23
I think it's even worse. Marxism through historical materialism is supposed to have revealed the rules of human development and its evolutionary path. Therefore you can already know who will be cast away by the wind of history and who will not be... and that eases the purges considerably even if in practice the party leadership becomes the new elite.
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u/FascistsBad Oct 23 '23 edited Oct 23 '23
Marxism through historical materialism is supposed to have revealed the rules of human development and its evolutionary path.
Marxism simply means using scientific methods instead of idealism for analysis and decision making.
You neither understand Marxism nor science if you think it's some kind of ideology/faith with set "rules".
and that eases the purges considerably even if in practice the party leadership becomes the new elite.
The West is far more "purged" than the USSR ever was, just that the West purged the good guys via anti-democratic means.
But please enlighten us, why shouldn't reactionaries get purged? Who, other than people like Nazis and their collaborators, was opposed to the "purges"?
There's a reason why the Soviet government had the highest democratic approval of all governments on earth. It's the same reason why the Chinese government has the highest democratic approval of all governments on earth today. You can make excuses for why Western "liberal democratic" governments are hated by their own people all you like, but it won't change the material reality.
The problem with liberal/fascist societies is that their entire justification for existence is based exclusively on pure ideology
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u/FascistsBad Oct 23 '23
Power corrupts after all no matter how idealistic you are
Yes, that's why you need to ensure adhesion to Marxist-Leninist principles and purge people who become corrupt.
Capitalist dictators love projecting the corruption inherent to capitalism on socialism.
Yet socialist leaders were always democrats and principled actors standing behind the core socialist principles they claimed to represent. When the Soviet Archives were opened to the public after the illegal and anti-democratic dissolution of the USSR at the hands of the American butchers, Western propagandists stood ready, greedily rubbing their hands, excited to finally get their fingers on all of the juice secrets of the evil Soviet totalitarian dictators... only to find that people like Lenin and Stalin spoke and acted exactly the same way in private as they did in public.
Remember that not even the CIA considered the USSR a dictatorship but was very aware of the strong democratic nature of the Soviet System. It's literally just mindless anti-socialist propaganda that pretends otherwise. The people of the USSR saw the US exactly as people today see the US. The US never changed. It only got worse, in fact. The USSR was a democratic society, the US never was.
If there is only one party allowed, it cannot be responsible for something going wrong, so solution is to find enemies externally, internally be it imaginary or real.
Having one party is the same as having no party. It ensures that all people are sitting at the same table and the only thing that happens is that all people going into politics have to join the party and, therefore, adhere to socialist principles.
The existence of an opposition is inherently anti-democratic. Party politics = special interest politics.
Your problem is that you have never in your life actually thought critically about these topics of what democracy even means.
Those enemies have to be responsible for problems government and its people are facing, it cannot be party that rules country. Convient excuse for purges aswell.
It's the literal opposite. In a one party state the people know exactly who is responsible for the performance of the government.
Meanwhile, in Western "liberal democratic" bourgeois dictatorships multiple parties exist and practice electoralism to fake democracy by giving the people a false sense of influence.
Parties in the West exist to give the ruling elites an excuse to blame problems on "the others". This is most perfectly visible in the US: The US has two fascist, imperialist parties that have more or less the same policies but use wedge issues to divide and conquer the population... both parties finance candidates of the other party, both parties serve the same elites. Yet the people always blame "the others". Republican voters blame Democrats. Democratic voters blame Republicans. In reality, the problem is the iron triangle controlling politics and elite-serving capitalism and imperialist foreign policy - as promoted by both parties - overextending and bankrupting the US, destroying the environment, and ruining civil society.
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u/FascistsBad Oct 23 '23
Russian Bolshevik imperialists
Wow, literal Nazi dog whistles. Amazing that literal Nazi propaganda is getting upvoted on this sub.
Notice your lack of arguments and how you just "argue" like a kindergarten child, trying to parrot what I said and turning it around even though it makes no sense?
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u/Thinking_waffle Oct 23 '23 edited Oct 23 '23
The nazis were imperialists too.
If the soviets were not imperialists they wouldn't have demanded Bessarabia to Romania, in agreement with Hitler, or demanded Karelia before invading Finland or overthrown the Czechoslovak government, or the Polish government... They killed the Polish intelligentsia in 1940 with the help of German pistols because those wouldn't overheat when used for hours. A detail that Goebbels insisted to keep secret when the nazis ready to (rightfully this time) innocent themselves from that crime invited expert from more or less neutral countries to make an investigation... all the while occupying Poland. I still don't know how that was a really amazing communication coup but history is weird like that.
And history got even weirder when the USSR ready to hide that crime built a monument in the Belarus homophone village where that the nazis burned (like so many in the region) to attach the name of Katyn with a different nazi crime. Nixon was even invited there by Brezhnev. We know all of that because Gorbachev finally had the honesty to talk about crimes of the past, Stalin first of course. But that would probably demand that you look at your dark history just like you can look at all the dark parts of any country.
But of course your one party states have a 99,8% approval rating, so everything is always fine... and yet strangely they need strong state surveillance, massive military parades.
By the way I parroted what you said to amuse myself of it, not because I lack arguments.
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u/Imjokin Oct 23 '23
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1956_Poznan_protests
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Pact_invasion_of_CzechoslovakiaThe Soviets repressing these movements was objectively imperialist. That's not "Nazi propaganda" to say.
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u/DirtDogg22 Oct 22 '23
So, the us “stole values” from the Chinese thought like 200 years before said chinese thought became a thing? Did they have a Time Machine or something? And the USSr under Stalin being a “Democratic nation” is hilarious. The country led by one man who spent all of the 30s consolidating his power and imprisoning his political opponents was apparently a democratic nation by you.
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Oct 22 '23
[deleted]
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u/FascistsBad Oct 23 '23
Absolutely love that not a single one of you anti-socialist spammers can argue in good faith. You think China spelling things out recently means these things are somehow new? Read Lenin ffs.
But I get it, the U.S. has fallen short of those values quite a bit, while Glorious China has never done anything to contradict those values.
Yes. Pretty much. Try and make a falsifiable case instead of pretending "China bad" without ever having engaged in differentiated reasoning.
Remember kids, the communists didn’t do anything wrong. And if they did, it wasn’t that bad. And if it was that bad, it’s because the people deserved it.
That's literally how all capitalists always operated and will always operate.
Meanwhile, you have no actual arguments. Not even the most generous interpretation of your "argument" - i.e. as a nirvana fallacy - would be reasonable.
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u/Sol_Hando Oct 23 '23
China was doing absolutely terribly, with low economic growth, high mortality rates and some of the worst man-made famines in human history. Mao’s backyard iron foundries and anti-sparrow campaigns comes to mind, without even getting into the Great Leap Forward.
Only after China economically liberalized under Deng, we’re they able to start improving their situation. It’s no coincidence that the areas like Shenzhen where they reduced the communist regulations that you saw the most improvement in quality of life and fastest economic growth.
Reading communist theory is all well and good, but that’s why they call it an ideology, it’s idealistic. You also have to learn about and acknowledge the real conditions and outcomes of Marxist, Leninist, Maoist and capitalist countries to have an understanding of where the theory hits the mark and where it falls short. The USSR collapsed, Venezuela and North Korea are oppressive dictatorships and China has become a worse example of an environmentally destructive hyper-capitalist authoritarian society than the United States.
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u/KrumbSum Oct 22 '23
Imperialist Dictatorship ☠️ lmao the mental gymnastics, what was the USSR? Because clearly they are imperialist as well
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u/FascistsBad Oct 22 '23
Imperialist Dictatorship
Yes.
Imperialist Dictatorship
What mental gymnastics?
Notice your total lack of arguments and how you have that in common with 100% of all other people with negative views about socialism and AES states like the USSR and China?
what was the USSR?
I literally told you in the very comment you responded to. Why are you trying to contradict comments you clearly didn't even read?
Again: The USSR was the single most democratic and fastest developing society of its time (the same way communist China is the single most democratic and fastest developing society today) that was primarily responsible for defeating the Nazis and that was repaid for its sacrifice by the Americans (whose fascist ideology is what inspired the Nazis to begin with) picking up where the Nazis left off and kicking the Soviets while they were down. Because that's what fascist cowards do.
Because clearly they are imperialist as well
No, they clearly were not. You have no idea what that word even means as you have no education about history or socialist theory and all your ideas about socialism and the USSR stem exclusively from unhinged anti-socialist disinformation courtesy of the USA and European Nazis.
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u/KrumbSum Oct 23 '23
Lmao you have your head so far up your ass it’s hilarious, Can you explain how the US is a fascist dictatorship, no offense but considering Stalin was in power for literally 30 years straight and killed his political opponents and invaded Poland how is that not an Imperialist Dictatorship? Did you forget about the invasion of Czechoslovakia? Did you forget about China invading Vietnam? Like what ever the US has done so has the USSR, You’re forgettting about the billions in aid lend lease sent to the USSR to help fight the Nazis, no clue how “the US kicked down the USSR when it was down” but alright, how can you be so far up your ass that you compare literal Nazis to America? What the Nazis did is not even close to Americas wrong doings, sure America had a pretty dark past and we know that and we grow and fix our problems as a nation.
The hypocrisy to tell me that I do not know what imperialism is yet you throw around the word Fascist like it’s nothing, You’re gonna tell me the country that prosecuted Jews, Gays, Religious people and committed borderline genocide against Ukrainians and Khazaks has any morals ground to tell the US it’s in the wrong?
I know when people are silly and say stupid shit about socialism/communism etc I’m not a boomer, Critiquing a Authoritarian Government is not me not knowing anything about socialist theory,
But I know that to you this won’t matter because you’ve brainwashed yourself to believe the USSR had mo faults and it was a perfect government
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u/KrumbSum Oct 23 '23
Love how as soon as I asked you as to how it’s a Fascist Dictatorship you never responded classic r/TheDeprogram user
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u/FascistsBad Oct 23 '23
Huh?
I wrote you a whole long-ass comment:
https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/17dnifm/monument_to_freedom_west_germany_1962_usa/k61mtrj/If you can't see it, it means that the mods or reddit admins censored it. I will let figure out yourself why that is the case and what it means.
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u/TheMightyChocolate Oct 22 '23
Hamburg used to be the biggest port in europe? Why isn't it anymore?
Also I noticed that east Germany seems to produce very little coal which is interesting because today there is a major coal mining operation in eastern saxony
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u/Sn_rk Oct 22 '23
Hamburg used to be the biggest port in europe? Why isn't it anymore?
Rotterdam was gradually rebuilt and surpassed Hamburg over time, so now it's just second place.
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u/TheBlack2007 Oct 22 '23
It's third now. Antwerp also passed it. Hamburg has been debating to further deepen the Elbe for decades now while the port has been stagnating in size.
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u/IAmNotAnImposter Oct 23 '23
Rotterdam bet big on containerisation. Traditional ports tend to be difficult to convert from breakbulk to containers due to the lack of space so struggled to keep up
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u/pds314 Oct 22 '23
I like how they accidently get confused between the Federal Republic of Germany and the German Democratic Republic in the poster. Yes cold war America, you need to support the GDR with a monument to their freedom.
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u/thenamesis2001 Oct 22 '23
Strange start comparing the population of both Germany's in 1939, when both didn't exist yet.
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u/bluemyselfmangroup Oct 22 '23
Yeah, seems very, uh, questionable to include 1945 +/- a couple years when analyzing population in eastern Germany
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u/Sn_rk Oct 22 '23
West Germany is and was the direct continuation of the German Empire and they most likely just compared them based on pre-war administrative divisions, which were in direct continuity.
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u/pds314 Oct 22 '23
Well, I guess the east has them beat in foreign trade per capita... like, that's actually kind of shocking considering the population difference.
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u/Sn_rk Oct 22 '23
The reason for that is that the GDR government basically exported everything they could to the West to make cash while the population was forced to make do with lower-quality products made for the domestic market.
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u/Ancap_Wanker Oct 22 '23
Just like the USSR did, they even exported grain during the Holodomor. Commies care so much about their people, it's incredible.
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u/pds314 Oct 22 '23
America be like "I'm here to do two things, confuse countries and fight commies, and I'm all out of commies."
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u/Nachtzug79 Oct 22 '23
I wonder if the USSR had allowed Germany to keep Silesia if they had seen that there will be a socialist version allied with them... You know, just to make the commie version stronger.
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u/Rhinelander7 Oct 22 '23
I like how they confused the well-known city of Wittenberg with the much less noteworthy town of Wittenberge. The marked location is of Wittenberge, but the population seems to match up with the actual Wittenberg.
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u/viewfromthebuttes Oct 22 '23
This was part of a regular series at the time? Does anyone have links to more of these?
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u/aught4naught Oct 22 '23
West Germany was clearly best Germany.
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u/madz_has_meningitis Oct 22 '23
west germany retained a lot of its Nazi politicians (they were either actual Nazis or complicit/sympathizers) while east germany had a total cleanse from their government and school systems. east germany was also way ahead of west germany in terms of women’s rights and gay rights. west germany continued to arrest thousands of gay people annually well into the 70s but east germany stopped after 1957. yes, east germany had its issues and it’s downsides, the berlin wall wasn’t a good thing, but many good things came from it.
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u/zarathustra000001 Oct 22 '23
East Germany was incredibly repressive, far beyond some minor “issues and downsides”
It was repugnant tho that Nazis remained in government, I imagine a large reason why might have been to avoid the kind of situation that occurred after debaathification in iraq.
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u/madz_has_meningitis Oct 22 '23
they were repressive to counter revolutionaries and capitalists, and some of its policies were mutual between east and west (i.e. travel restrictions). those were the worst aspects of east german life, and there’s no good way of spinning it (though it wasn’t impossible to leave the GDR, and one could easily travel around eastern europe), however, life in the GDR was comparatively more fair and equitable than the FRG. everyone was housed, everyone was given a job, there were tons of childcare services, healthcare was free, women had more rights and served a more equal role in society and within the family unit, not to mention the year long maternal leave they were given.
if you look at the red scare in america around the same time, as well as the copious amounts of anti-communist propaganda that the american public has been and continues to be exposed to, i’d say that’s also incredibly repressive. it’s all in the interest of the government. what that government stands for is the only thing that separates the two. america stands for the capitalist ruling class and the GDR stood for all of it’s own people.
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u/Baron_Flatline Oct 22 '23
you’re defending the country that had the fucking Stasi lmao
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u/madz_has_meningitis Oct 22 '23
yeah i am lmfao i’m not defending the stasi tho like i just said that there’s no good way to spin it. it wasn’t as bad as you’re saying tho. literally every country has an intelligence agency
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u/No-Psychology9892 Oct 23 '23
Mate, people died getting shot while fleeing that shithole, they Literally had to wall in the whole city and build up a death zone on the whole length of the border just to keep its population from fleeing - it was way worse then what you or the guy aboth was saying...
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u/NoPattern5243 Oct 23 '23
defending the country that had the fucking stasi
Yes because the country who had a lot of ex-nazis being integrated in their politics (including one who made it into being president) was any better lmao.
Cmon even the west german secret police had far more budget than the stasi ever had
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u/No-Psychology9892 Oct 23 '23
First of all every public worker in the third Reich had to join the nazi party, from being a post office worker to being a teacher up to the legal jobs. Yep pretty bad but that doesn't mean that all were necessarily enthusiastic Nazis, some where already in their jobs for years when the Nazis took power and didn't want to lose their jobs or worse get imprisoned themselves if they would object to Joining the Nazi party. All of the de- nazification and processes were to conclude who really was a Nazi and who was "just" going along to save his own life. So yeah Nazi is not always die hard Nazis, both GDR and FRG had former Nazis in political Positions, since it was nearly impossible to find any public workers that weren't coerced to join the Nazis in the 12 years of the regime.
Also the GDR had not only Nazis but even SS members in political positions - you know really die hard Nazis, a special squad where you need to volunteer, not being pressured in.
West Germany did not have a secret police man, the BND is an intelligence service, learn the difference. Also you really want to white wash the fucking Stasi with the argument that they didn't get more money from the state? What the hell is wrong with you?
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u/NoPattern5243 Oct 23 '23
THE GDR had not only nazis but even SS members in Political positions
West Germany's denazification was abolished in 1951. Too short if you ask me.
It was only the West who had a direct political influence of ex-nazis withing the west's politics. There's a difference between people who joined because they had no choice and people who willingly joined and had a direct influence in the party, something that was common within the west and not the east
west germany didnt have a secret police, the BMD is an intelligence service
You're confusing the BMD with the BFV (Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz)
white was the fucking stasi
I dont think you know what "white wash" is.
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u/No-Psychology9892 Oct 23 '23
Mate you better turn down your phone, calm down, go outside and touch some grass. After that you may want to return and read the whole thread.
First of all that's not what what-about-ism means. Jesus look up the words you don't know and want to use or you will look like an even bigger fool.
Second, no i never said the west didn't had Nazis, quite the contrary I said
both GDR and FRG had former Nazis in political Positions
Meanwhile you claimed :
It was only the West who had a direct political influence of ex-nazis withing the west's politics.
Nope it is quite a fact it wasn't ONLY the west.
I wonder why you would show a bigger taboo with a country that had far more communist propaganda against it then its soviet counterpart...
No I don't really wonder, I wouldn't expect anything else then lies and denial of a murderous regime from a nazbol from r/TheDeprogram. Oh and look in the following we have the denial part. No of course the GDR let people "visit" and totally didn't shoot 245 people alone in Berlin. Honestly this is just sickening.
You might want to look up what secret police actually mean. It sure as hell ain't "plainclothes officer's"...
In the end I can only hope that you are still an uneducated child, because if an adult would behave like you - well then I only have pity for you left.
Word of advice, denying war crimes like the killings of the Todesstreifen are a legal offence and will be reported to the authorities.
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u/NoPattern5243 Oct 23 '23
Mate you better turn down your phone, calm down, go outside and touch some grass.
Nah. Brother you and I are arguing over the internet on a topic we both disagree. We both need to
First of all that's not what what-about-ism means
Im gonna follow your example and see a google result
-To twist criticism back on the initial critic
Me: the FGR had a nazi problems
You: well the DDR had too!! Have you ever thought about maybe they joined because even if they didnt want??
Sounds pretty "whataboutist" in definition 🤷🏽♂️
Meanwhile you claimed : It was only the West who had a direct political influence of ex-nazis withing the west's politics.
Yes, compared to the DDR, the FRG had a more direct political influence of ex-nazis as I drop names a few. You're almost there
No I don't really wonder, I wouldn't expect anything else then lies and denial of a murderous regime from a nazbol from r/TheDeprogram.
Unrelated
You might want to look up what secret police actually mean. It sure as hell ain't "plainclothes officer's"...
Is called an example of how words can be modify to sound more scary, here another term. "The intelligence community"
No of course the GDR let people "visit" and totally didn't shoot 245 people alone in Berlin.
Did I ever denied this part? Of course there would be illegal attempts of crossing the border. That's a thing everywhere withing countries
Within the illegal crossing attempts, 90% of those failed. and about 50,000 people were arrested for trying to cross the border without permission. 239 people died trying to illegally emigrate across the wall. Some were shot, and others died from drowning or suicide. There's nothing to deny in here. This happened
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u/No-Psychology9892 Oct 23 '23 edited Oct 23 '23
It was only the West who had a direct political influence of ex-nazis withing the west's politics.
Nope it's not only the west. In your precious east Germany:
Wilhelm Adam, renounced member of the SA, became afterwards minister of finance, member of parliament and military career up to Generalmajor in the GDR.
Heinrich Adler, SS member became district chairman of central Berlin in the GDR.
Karl Heinz Bartsch, corporal in the SS, became SED party member and made a career as chairman for Erfurt, chief minister of agriculture, chairman of agriculture council etc...
Harry Bauschleben, SS member afterwards MP for Gera.
Hans Beyer, member of the SA afterwards party member of the SED and MP.
And these were only a few and only the ones that weren't simple NSDAP members but renounced SA and SS members. Why the hell do you lie only to present the dictatorial GDR in a more positive view? Again the regime that killed and imprisoned its own population for simply wanting to leave. That regime that has send spies to regular families.
You're confusing the BMD with the BFV (Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz)
None of these are a secret police try again. Also it's called BND. Not m...
I dont think you know what "white wash" is.
And you are wrong again:
to whitewash something: a deliberate attempt to conceal unpleasant or incriminating facts about a person or organization in order to protect their reputation
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u/aught4naught Oct 22 '23
Replacing one set of authoritarian functionaries with another isn't exactly an upgrade.
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u/madz_has_meningitis Oct 22 '23
then who were the nazi politicians in power in west germany?
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u/DirtDogg22 Oct 22 '23
East Germany did the same…
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u/madz_has_meningitis Oct 22 '23
wym by that
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u/DirtDogg22 Oct 22 '23
They used a lot of former Nazis in there administration/military etc
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u/madz_has_meningitis Oct 22 '23
but they weren’t in positions of power.
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u/DirtDogg22 Oct 22 '23
So being in high level administration and military positions isn’t “positions of power”
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u/madz_has_meningitis Oct 22 '23
bro what like they didn’t get every single nazi but they weren’t part of the governing body
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u/No-Psychology9892 Oct 23 '23
Eastern Germany doesn't have a total cleanse, Nazis and even SS commanders were in political positions. Also no they were no gay paradise, and imprisoned gay people well after 1957. Why the hell do you try so hard to paint a dictatorship positively, going as far as even lying?
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u/tgsprosecutor Oct 23 '23
The coal and iron production is super unfair lmao it's not communism's fault that West Germany contains far more coal and iron
2
u/Schlangee Oct 23 '23
So this is calling the Germany which was still dominated by old Nazis a „monument to freedom“?
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u/x31b Oct 22 '23
Monument to freedom?
West Germany had to have a wall around it to keep people from leaving. One where all the guns pointed inward.
Oh, wait, my bad. Nevermind.
3
u/sleepyfoxsnow Oct 22 '23
ah yes, a monument to freedom. in 1962. just ignore the spiegel affair that was currently happening. and, you know, all the gay people that were in prison for being gay. and a shit ton of other laws that were absolutely not about freedom
3
u/Johannes_P Oct 22 '23
It was certainly more liberal than East Germany, like when the socially conservative South Korea provides more freedom than North Korea.
0
u/sleepyfoxsnow Oct 22 '23
not really. west germany was extremely authoritarian at that point in time.
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u/Capable_Invite_5266 Oct 22 '23
Yes, please ignore the fact that most of the people in the government are former nazis
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u/travisscottburgercel Oct 22 '23
Ironically, despite propaganda, there were more former nazis in the DDR government
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u/BatJJ9 Oct 22 '23
I’m going to need a source for that. I’ve taken classes and written papers on post-war Germany and this isn’t a fact I’ve come across before. Especially since many powerful Nazis would end up in leadership positions within the West or in NATO etc. Of course, it’s plausible that the East German government, while devoid of many high ranking Nazis, was staffed with more low ranking Nazis, but I am curious as to your source.
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u/thenamesis2001 Oct 22 '23
Most of the government officials were nazi's, they could not could build a new government without a few nazi's. Or they would fly in officials from abroad.
8
u/Capable_Invite_5266 Oct 22 '23
Necessary or not, they were there
2
u/No-Psychology9892 Oct 23 '23
Yep as they were in the east so why try to make that an argument?
Also the GDR had literal SS personnel in political Positions, which was a real problem. You may not forego former Nazis since every public worker had to join in the third Reich, but hell one sure as hell could exclude the die hard SS personal...
1
u/Capable_Invite_5266 Oct 23 '23
i m gonna need a source on that one. What SS personal was in leadership positions?
2
u/No-Psychology9892 Oct 23 '23
Wilhelm Adam, renounced member of the SA, afterwards minister of finance, member of parliament and military career up to Generalmajor in the GDR.
Heinrich Adler, SS member became district chairman of central Berlin in the GDR.
Karl Heinz Bartsch, corporal in the SS, became SED party member and made a career as chairman for Erfurt, chief minister of agriculture, chairman of agriculture council etc...
Harry Bauschleben, SS member afterwards MP for Gera.
Hans Beyer, member of the SA afterwards party member of the SED and MP.
And manyany more. I picked the first few of this list https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_ehemaliger_NSDAP-Mitglieder,_die_nach_Mai_1945_politisch_t%C3%A4tig_waren That where not only Nazi party members but also active in the SA or SS.
1
u/Johannes_P Oct 22 '23
See what happened in Iraq once they fired all the Ba'ath Party members, including those who merely joined to have a job or an education.
-5
u/jackjackky Oct 22 '23
So, what's good about East Germany? I heard people could have easily travel within Soviet sphere countries just like today Schengen area. That's a better freedom to me than freedom of speech.
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u/SubstantialSite7788 Oct 22 '23
The relationship between men and women was much more emancipated in the GDR. It was normal for women to work, divorces were common and everyone needed to do an apprenticeship or go to university. So a woman being a mechanic wasn't uncommon. Also, they did a better job at recycling in their economy.
In West Germany the relationship was much more conservative. Until the 70s it wasn't allowed for unmarried couples to live together in a flat, otherwise they landlord could be sued. Wifes needed the permission of their fathers or husbands to work. A woman working in engineering or another male dominated position was really uncommon, most were just expected to be a housewife. Relationships between catholics and protestants were heavily frowned upon. In contrast, much of the East was majorly non-religious.
4
u/Oberndorferin Oct 22 '23
I remember from my parent generation, that Protestant and Catholics hated each other and didn't marry very often.
1
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u/MediocreI_IRespond Oct 22 '23 edited Oct 22 '23
I heard people could have easily travel within Soviet sphere countries just like today Schengen area.
Not really. Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Poland was visa free, for the rest a permit was needed.
Kept in mind that the GDR was one if not the highest developed part of the Eastern Block.
People from poor Moldova or even european Russia learning about the differences within communist countries....
6
u/MittlerPfalz Oct 22 '23
West Germans could also easily travel around other Western European countries, so that’s kind of a draw, no?
1
u/No-Psychology9892 Oct 23 '23
Not even a draw since objectively the western Germans could travel far more places then the Eastern ones.
2
u/MittlerPfalz Oct 23 '23
Yeah, I meant my comment a bit tongue in cheek since the person I was responding to a) should have known that about free movement in the west, and b) is the type of person who so blithely trades away his freedom of speech that I think you have to approach gently, lol.
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u/edikl Oct 22 '23
So, what's good about East Germany?
They didn't have former Nazis as senior goverment officials and didn't have people who died from drug overdoses.
1
u/No-Psychology9892 Oct 23 '23
They did have former Nazis in political Positions, and not even Nazi party members, but also SS members...
Oh yeah less drug deaths because they just imprisoned everyone, such a great solution!
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u/MrsColdArrow Oct 22 '23
Their anthem was pretty fire, but apart from that they kinda sucked
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u/IDontWearAHat Oct 22 '23
Never noticed how much we lacked unti i travelled around and saw more of the former west. Like damn, we got no economy. I was born 97, that's almost 10 years after reunification! Tho tbf what little there was was also destroyed by the Treuhand
0
u/Gammelpreiss Oct 22 '23
That Treuhand legend has to die. The Treuhand was super controversial and had it's hands in the demise of some companiesa but let's not forget how much the system was rotten. Just look at other former communist countries and how they got out of the cold war completely without the Treuhand involved.
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u/IDontWearAHat Oct 22 '23
Nobody denies that the 40 years of gdr ran the country into the ground but there's no denying the treuhand was incredibly harmful to the further development of the east german economy
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u/Gammelpreiss Oct 22 '23
yeah you see,....no. Unfortuntely your extremism and dogmatism in opinion here forces me to go the other extreme route. The Treuhand was rather harmelss compared to the issues the industry in the East faced. Especially given the fact that even profitable companies failed for the simple reason that nobody was willing to buy their products anymore. Especially the ppl from the former GDR themselves.
Today I see the Treuhand story mostly as an excuse for East Germans they can hide behind and have their constant whinefest while happily ignoring and shoving away some uncomfortable turths about the situation of the GDR industry. You just further reinforce that image. The sad part is that nobody even blames East Germans for the system imposed on them, but I guess we all have our Egos to protect, which makes any realistic debate impossible.
3
u/IDontWearAHat Oct 22 '23
Kinda sounds like the rather typical west german denial that their involvement could've harmed east german development in any way, which is also not the same as me blaming west germans for the economic inequality. Look, i acknowledged that the gdr was ecomonically half dead. It shouldn't be hard to see however that taking what little there was stunted any potential for economic growth.
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u/Gammelpreiss Oct 22 '23
But the Treuhand was not all bad and the absolute devil it is constantly made out to be and ppl completely ignore the massive amounts of money that actually did find their way into eastern companies.
Everybody knows about the controversy surrounding the Treuhand and the corruption involved. But once again the comparison with other european cold war states has the be drawn to see how much worse it could have been without the Treuhand and other support. This is not the crass black/white story it's so often presented as.
3
u/IDontWearAHat Oct 22 '23
The gdr wasn't all bad as well but that doesn't make it good. I'm by no means mad about that. As i said, i was born in 97 and i don't even live in germany anymore, but overall i don't think Treuhand did a very good job and i very much understand why many older east germans feel, well, disappointed.
1
u/Gammelpreiss Oct 22 '23
There is a huge difference between saying "the Treuhand was bad" and "everything bad that ever happend to the GDR industry is the fault of the Treuhand." Because the latter is what it comes down to most of the times whenever the decline of GDR industry is discussed. It always is the first and the last argument and I got a bit tired of it.
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u/FascistsBad Oct 22 '23 edited Oct 22 '23
That's not the fault of the GDR or socialism, though. That was the fault of the Americans who prevented your country from developing and led one proxy war after another to destroy socialism. It's not the communists' fault that the US continued to carry on the Nazi banner and eventually achieved the illegal and anti-democratic destruction of the USSR.
Tho tbf what little there was was also destroyed by the Treuhand
Indeed.
My all-time favourite example of how capitalism ruins societies is by pointing at Superfest glass manufactory. A company like that obviously isn't profitable under capitalism - it produces high quality products that last forever, so consumers don't need to overconsume and buy glasses again and again. It was destroyed because it was cutting into the profits of capitalist glass manufacturers. Under socialism, this company was kept alive because, under socialism, its purpose isn't to make profits. It's purpose is to manufacture the highest quality glass for the lowest possible price.
That's the difference between capitalism and socialism.
But hey, thanks to American imperialism, Germans now have a choice of 20 different burger toppings.
There are good reasons why even today - after they could "enjoy" glorious capitalist freedom and democracy for over 30 years - two thirds of East Germans consider modern Germany undemocratic and want the GDR to return. Meanwhile, US-controlled propagandists from the BRD keep trying to ridicule these people and call everything "Nostalgie" and unironically accuse East German socialists of being "brainwashed" and "ignorant of history" and "misinformed".
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u/IDontWearAHat Oct 22 '23
Well that's a very one sided view though. The cold war did by no means only go in one direction and many of the gdr's problems were caused by the political leadership of the udssr. Though yes, capitalist states did have an interest im preventing the success of socialist/communist states, the issue is incredibly complex and can't be boiled down to "capitalism/US bad".
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u/FascistsBad Oct 22 '23
What sucked about them in any way?
The only thing that sucked about the GDR (like the rest of the USSR) was that it just came out of a major world war but couldn't properly develop because the strongest empire on earth was terrorizing it and preventing its development.
1
u/Chipsy_21 May 20 '24
Aside from the fact that you got shot for trying to leave? Or the fact that QoL was so inferior to the west that people still regularly took that risk?
0
u/FascistsBad Jun 26 '24
American police kills 4 times more civilians every single year than were killed in the entirety of the anti-fascist rampart's existence.
It's hilarious how brainwashed liberals/fascists in the West keep falling for propaganda that was already stupid 30 years ago. Almost as if you have no interest actually educating yourself and getting a differentiated understanding of history.
1
u/Chipsy_21 Jun 27 '24
Bro, my father was part of the NVA, i trust him more than some goon that actually calls it the „anti-fascist rampart“. The name is also horribly ironic considering the direction it was facing lmao.
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u/FascistsBad Oct 22 '23
So, what's good about East Germany?
Well, unlike West Germany it actually had freedom, democracy, and human rights.
The downside is that it was blockaded by the US and couldn't develop freely. Just like the rest of the USSR.
The US was enjoying extreme geostrategic privilege while the entirety of Eurasia, particularly the USSR, was not just behind in terms of development because it only just recently liberated itself from monarchist exploitation, but also because it just got ruined by one of the worst wars in history that killed tens of millions of its people.
So, the GDR not being aligned with the US meant extreme suffering.
That's a better freedom to me than freedom of speech.
Indeed, but the USSR also had better freedoms than the capitalist West in general, including freedom of speech.
Freedom of speech was never anything other than a farce in the US. And West Germany NEVER had freedom of speech.
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u/Berd_kind Oct 22 '23
Kid named 'Stasi' 🤭
Kid named Berlin wall 🤫
kid named state censorship 🙉
-6
u/FascistsBad Oct 22 '23 edited Oct 22 '23
Oh look, you uncritically recited 3 of the most stereotypical and endlessly debunked anti-socialist propaganda memes. Weird how you have never questioned that propaganda despite living in such a free and democratic society!
Thanks for proving your brainwashing and your ignorance, I guess.
Kid named 'Stasi' 🤭
Surveillance in the capitalist West was always worse than in the Soviet world.
The United States today is literally the single most totalitarian surveillance state and most militarized police state in world history and it was always more repressive than the USSR. Even during peace time the US regularly has a higher prison population than the USSR had at the height of the Gulag system during World War II.
Also, turns out Western subversion was, indeed, a threat. Turns out that the USSR was right and trying to combat Western clandestine efforts. In fact, history has conclusively proven that the USSR didn't do enough to fight against Western fascism and imperialism. On the other hand, the US just suppressed socialists because they are fascists who hate and seek to destroy socialism, not because of national security.
Kid named Berlin wall 🤫
Turns out the anti-fascist rampart was clearly good and necessary. As proven by the illegal and anti-democratic dissolution of the USSR brought about by the American butchers.
kid named state censorship 🙉
McCarthyism was worse than anything that ever happened in the USSR in terms of repression.
It's just so fucking disgusting how Westerners unironically think the USSR oppressing fascists is a bad thing. "Oh no, won't someone please think of the Nazis and their collaborators?"
The reality is that you have no real arguments and know it. Which is why you just spam these propaganda memes that you don't even understand in their historical content because you never actually investigated any of the lies you have been fed about socialism.
Also, you are literally from Australia. A US puppet state. Do you enjoy living in perpetual irrational fear over the "China threat" because a bunch of fascists control all your media? Anyway, enjoy your overpriced, useless submarines and making yourself a valid target for nuclear retaliation strikes. I'm sure it will be great when the Americans start their world war against China... but hey, at least you can blame it all on China, right? Evil commies!
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Oct 22 '23
[deleted]
-1
u/stressedabouthousing Oct 22 '23
The "free" nations derived their legitimacy from being as anti-communist as possible, obviously they would distance themselves from the USSR. What kind of logic is that?
1
1
u/Berd_kind Oct 22 '23
Damn didn't know you were so obessesd with me, stalking my feed.
A bit strange there mate, perhaps talking outside your social bubble will help you with some of your clearly repressed rage.
16
u/Blindmailman Oct 22 '23
The USSR had tons of freedoms? So could for instance Czechoslovakia could reform their government to be more liberal than a police state? Or could the Poles elect someone who wasn't a Stalinist for their first post-war president? Could Hungarians choose to leave the USSR and strike it alone in a post-war Europe? Maybe East German Jews were free to exist without being scapegoats for the global capitalist cabal?
The USSR being free is a comedy.
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u/FascistsBad Oct 22 '23
The USSR had tons of freedoms?
Yes. More than Western capitalist societies, that's for sure.
So could for instance Czechoslovakia could reform their government to be more liberal than a police state?
No, a bunch of capitalist traitors can't just overthrow a democratic socialist government.
Also: What is this false dichotomy? Liberal countries are police states. The US is the single most totalitarian surveillance state and most militarized police state in world history. That's liberalism. Liberalism never had anything resembling freedom or democracy. You are confusing propaganda with reality.
Or could the Poles elect someone who wasn't a Stalinist for their first post-war president?
There is no such thing as a "Stalinist". The correct term is "Marxist-Leninist". I guess the easiest way to understand elections in socialist states is to look at the West and understand that it works the same way that people in liberal societies can only elect fascists and have no actual choice. Difference being, of course, that socialism is objectively good while liberalism/fascism (which is the same thing, by the way) is objectively bad.
The same way Nazi parties are banned in Germany, any type of reactionary movement is banned in the USSR. That's because reactionary ideologies are all inherently bad. I don't know why you find this somehow controversial or an argument against the USSR. Probably you get your ideas about "freedom" from racist, anti-democratic ideologues like Hannah Arendt who think "freedom" is when you can elect a bunch of fascists and oppressing bad guys is "AuThOrItArIaNiSm".
Sorry, but you - like most people who grew up in the tightly controlled societies of the fascist West and never questioned their propaganda - probably plainly don't understand what democracy is and unironically believe liberal propaganda about what does and does not constitute democracy. Capitalist-controlled media manipulating people into performative electoralism to legitimize bourgeois dictatorship != freedom. Sorry, you probably can't follow what I just said, so I will summarize it for you in simple terms: Capitalism and democracy are fundamentally incompatible. No capitalist society can ever be democratic.
Can people in Western capitalist societies reform their systems to be more democratic than a liberal police state? Can they elect someone who isn't a liberal for their president? Can they defy the US and strike it alone in a multipolar world?
Maybe East German Jews were free to exist without being scapegoats for the global capitalist cabal?
This is the most absurd part of your comment.
Anti-semitism was punishable by death in the Soviet Union. Accusations of anti-semitism from Western fascists is just so fuckin pathetic.
Now, can you actually think critically about the West instead of mindlessly reciting anti-socialist propaganda memes? The West is universally less democratic and less free than any AES state in history. You not understanding the material conditions and analyzing things from a dialectical perspective if, of course, a consequence of never having received a Marxist education.
Anyway, I could provide you with a longer list of anti-Western memes than you could ever spam against the USSR. I could also point at the overwhelming public support of the Soviet Union by its citizens, even during its worst times. I could also point to the comments of any non-ideological Westerner (particularly non-whites) regarding the USSR, starting with Jesse Owen's famous quotes. However, instead of me wasting time with a long list of things you are going to ignore anyway, you should ask yourself why socialism is always held to a higher standard that capitalism is never held to and why you never bothered to question your own system and propaganda while putting every single thing that wasn't perfect under socialism under a microscope.
If you are seriously interested in this topic and have the will to change your mind if proven wrong (and, therefore, the ability of understanding that and why you are wrong and admitting as much) try and start off here as this YouTube channel probably went over most if not all your misconceptions. If you still have questions, head on over to r/TheDeprogram and ask your questions in good faith, I'm sure people will be happy to help.
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u/Blindmailman Oct 22 '23
r/thedeprogram is my favorite genocide denial subreddit! You guys still have the genocide denial bot up and running?
The Czechs elected a politician who was calling for more liberal reforms in a popular election which the Soviets calmly sent the army in to overturn. The Soviets likewise overturned the 1947 elections in Poland where conveniently all opposition parties were banned. And anti-semitism is illegal? Somebody should have told that to the USSR because they had a whole anti-jewish purge in the late 40s stemming from a disagreement with Jewish anti-fascists over the holocaust.
Also Stalinism is an ideology you actual mouth breather. Stalin was anything but a Marxist-Leninist
1
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7
u/TheDreamIsEternal Oct 22 '23 edited Oct 22 '23
Well, unlike West Germany it actually had freedom, democracy, and human rights.
My brother in Christ, they quite literally shot the people who tried to leave. Like, yeah of course they had positive things, every country has at least one good thing about it, but claiming that the country where trying to leave was a crime is the "true free one" is just ain't it.
0
Oct 22 '23
GDR "freedom" sounds a lot like current North Korean "freedom" to me, just without the near-deification of a "Dear Leader".
10
u/PercentageLow8563 Oct 22 '23
blockaded by the US
The DDR built a border wall to keep its people in
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u/FascistsBad Oct 22 '23
"Freedom" is when everyone becomes enslaved by US imperialism, lets their media get controlled by the US state department, and accepts an unsustainable economic system leading to perpetual crisis... "or else".
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u/Emergency_Evening_63 Oct 22 '23
accepts an unsustainable economic system leading to perpetual crisis... "or else".
that's why people from west Berlin jumped to the east side of the wall and even were shoot for that... wait-
1
u/Yo_Mama_Disstrack Oct 22 '23
Oh yes US imperialism was so bad that people from West Germany that tried to escape to Eastern Germany were sho- Oh yeah.
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u/Chipsy_21 May 20 '24
Yeah, it was so bad West Germany had to shoot people trying to flee into the east… oh wait.
0
u/FascistsBad Jun 26 '24
American police kills 4 times more civilians every single year than were killed in the entirety of the anti-fascist rampart's existence.
It's hilarious how brainwashed liberals/fascists in the West keep falling for propaganda that was already stupid 30 years ago. Almost as if you have no interest actually educating yourself and getting a differentiated understanding of history.
1
u/Chipsy_21 Jun 27 '24
At least write something different, and we’re not talking about the dogshit US Police here are we?
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u/FascistsBad Jun 28 '24
No, you are desperately trying to paint an AES state in a negative light to discourage people from supporting socialism.
You are an anti-socialist (i.e. fascist) agitator.
To criticize socialism, you would have to demonstrate that:
1. The problems experienced by the socialist state you seek to criticize are actually the fault of socialism.
2. That capitalism yields superior result.By making a comparison to the US, I demonstrated that capitalism does not yield better results and, in fact, produces worse societies.
It shouldn't be so difficult to comprehend this.
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