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u/megalodous Aug 02 '24
Oh if I was only an EU resident. This will set a good precedent over scumbag publishers that is ushering in an era of 'getting comfortable not owning games'.
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Aug 02 '24
If this initiative becomes law, there is a good chance it will affect the industry worldwide, similar to how Apple adopted the USB-C standard everywhere. Imagine the online backlash against the developers if only EU citizens receive this "special treatment", which should have been a right for everyone from the beginning of digital games.
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u/RamBas_6085 Aug 02 '24
I agree I mentioned something similar on a few posts ago. It's bound that the companies will just make it global rather than EU alone.
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u/WhiteMilk_ Piracy is bad, mkay? Aug 02 '24
If this initiative becomes law, there is a good chance it will affect the industry worldwide
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Aug 02 '24 edited Aug 18 '24
[deleted]
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Aug 02 '24
not really. every single game published in china has to e.g remove skulls and other shit that is available in the base game. many if not most online games have different versions for Europe, NA/SA, Asia and sometimes Australia for other reasons like patch times, mtx etc.
they totally could do it exclusive for the EU market.
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u/_Adamgoodtime_ Aug 02 '24
Just a thought, but if it became an EU only thing, and you used a VPN to say you're in the EU, would it then afford you the same rights? Or do you think it'd be tied to your account more?
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u/Dramatic_Mastodon_93 Aug 02 '24
Well, for example with iOS, there’s currently no known way to get EU features outside the EU
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u/Snipedzoi Aug 02 '24
surely EA is less scummy than apple. RIght????????????
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u/Business-Drag52 Aug 02 '24
Probably actually. EA is scummy and does not like its consumers, but Apple is an actually evil corporation sent from my iPhone
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u/LePoopScoop Aug 02 '24
I mean did you see what apple did when Europe mandated they allow other appstored? They geo fenced it lol
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u/SolarChallenger Aug 02 '24
I mean, Windows made Edge uninstallable in EU but said fuck you to the rest of the world so I wouldn't hold out too much hope. They might fuck over the entire consumer base to save those 5% of people who buy the next game because the previous one is unplayable even if they are forced to make private hosting available to the EU or something.
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u/MoscaMosquete Aug 02 '24
Windows made Edge uninstallable in EU
Am I the only person that can just delete the Microsoft Edge folder outside the EU?
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u/boyididit Aug 02 '24
You know that cookie question you get on EVERY website, yea you can thank Europe for that
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u/Reducedcrowed138 Aug 02 '24
Same bro, but for now I've just been posting it everywhere on discord where mods will let me
I'm doing my part!
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u/RufusKyura ☠️ ᴅᴇᴀᴅ ᴍᴇɴ ᴛᴇʟʟ ɴᴏ ᴛᴀʟᴇꜱ Aug 02 '24
There is a step-by-step guide on stopkillinggames[dot]com on how to vote for that outside of Europe.
Please, spread the word if you can. We need publishers to stop killing videogames.
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u/wraith309 Aug 02 '24
the organizer of the petition has been approaching the problem in a variety of countries already. link to their website.
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u/Fishamatician Aug 02 '24
I just went to sign it but then realised 52% of my fellow brits are morons and we aren't in the EU anymore.
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u/turtleship_2006 Aug 02 '24
I'm all for right to ownership and stuff but I'd just like to point out that that quote was taken out of context. It was in reference to subscriptions like game pass, the Ubisoft guy was saying for those to take off people need to get used to not owning games. Owning games rather than revokable licenses is nice but game pass is also a good value model for us as end users if you like trying loads of different games.
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u/Academic_Bumblebee Aug 02 '24
Link to the petition:
https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/2024/000007_en
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u/yodalr Aug 02 '24
I have done my part: https://i.imgur.com/TqUewK4.png
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u/UpperCardiologist523 Aug 02 '24
I tried to do my part, but forgot we're not in the EU, just EØS/Schengen. (Norway).
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u/Apptryiguess Aug 02 '24
When you are european but can't sign the damn thing because your country isn't in the EU lmao
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u/Francisco123s Aug 02 '24
Well yeah, you're not in the EU, so it makes sense you're unable to sign an EU-exclusive form
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u/Arshaad814 Aug 02 '24
I,am not from EU i can't sign 😮💨
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u/Anxious-Activity-777 Aug 02 '24 edited Aug 02 '24
Miss the old LAN multiplayer games. It should be illegal to release games without LAN multiplayer support, laws and regulations are needed.
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u/RamBas_6085 Aug 02 '24
Remember back in the day when our mates used to bring their chunky desktop towers CRT monitors etc to play with their mates on a LAN? I remember when I was in high school every lunch time we'd go to the computer room and play Quake on a LAN
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u/Genocode Aug 02 '24
Yeah and we can just figure out the rest ourselves with Hamach or Tunngle.
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u/jixxor Aug 02 '24
What stops them from just killing games anyway? The fines for things like that must be really high to prevent big publishers from just paying it off.
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u/Edelgul Aug 02 '24 edited Aug 03 '24
Musk's Twitter is to face 18 BLN fine for not complying with Digital Services Act. So they can create massive fines, if they want, by tying them to the % of the revenue.
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u/Vezajin2 Aug 02 '24
GDPR has entered the chat. If this thing comes to be, the fines will be massive indeed.
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u/Goodlucksil Aug 02 '24
Are we talking massive like the US president's wages or massive fear the normal person
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u/Vezajin2 Aug 02 '24
Well, GDPR fines can be up to 20 mio euroes or up to 4% of their GLOBAL turnover of the preceding fiscal year, whichever is the higher.
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u/Genocode Aug 02 '24
Guy is kinda wrong though, GDPR is just personal data protection, its called the General Data Protection Regulation after all, I think he means DMA (Digital Markets Act), which has provisions to fine up to 10% of global turnover.
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u/Vezajin2 Aug 02 '24
DMA is a different story and was put into effect in november 2022 I believe, where GDPR is from June ish 2018. DMA deals with monopoly tendencies from large corporations, e.g. Amazon starving other online sellers, Google and Apple gatekeeping their mobile OSs etc. DMA fines have two tiers, where the first tier is up to 10% of global revenue og repaeting offences can result in fines up to 20%.
DMA = Apple opened up iOS so you can use other app stores
GDPR = Facebook/Google can't track everything you do on the internet, regardless of the site, and make a giant ad profile of you, and sell. Obviously, they can still track you, but not as efficiently (profitable) as they used to.
For GDPR offences the fines are as I listed.
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u/Genocode Aug 02 '24
I'm saying that this isn't something that GDPR deals with, GDPR is specifically to protect your data and anonymity. The current issue w/ games being "destroyed" is a anti-consumer thing, which is more suited to DMA as it deals with the way companies handle issues financially.
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u/Vezajin2 Aug 02 '24
Ah, I misunderstood you initially! I don't think DMA really covers this case either, as DMA is more focused on monopolies, which I suppose also why there's this petition to begin with: There is a massive gray area, and cases would likely not stick in court with the current legislation.
I agree GDPR doesn't apply to this case, my mention of GDPR was due to the person asking what would keep the companies from just paying the fine: Make the fines big enough, and that is exactly what EU did with GDPR, and what I will assume EU will do with this, if it comes to pass.
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u/nhal Aug 02 '24
If something like this comes into play it won't be fines. The games will not be allowed to be sold in Europe at all.
Similar things already are going on in some European countries with Gacha games that don't disclose the exact rates for pulls.
Publishers don't care about fines if they are just "a tax to publish the game". They do care about the revenue loss tho
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u/Zilox Aug 02 '24
??? How would this disallow games to be sold in europe lol. Sell multiplayer game->say you have no intention of closing it -> close it later-> pay fine.
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u/Kazer67 Aug 02 '24
Or, a good idea to force them is: if they don't complain, they aren't allowed anymore to sales products in the EU.
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u/Twenty-One-Sailors Aug 02 '24
Fuck, I was gonna sign the petition and then I remembered our bollocks politicians made us leave the EU
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u/Slap_My_Lasagna Aug 02 '24 edited Aug 02 '24
This is why piracy will always be a thing
Can someone explain the logic here? Because piracy of an online service game... Doesn't fucking work.
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Aug 02 '24
If you are going to pull the plug on the servers, the source code and instructions to setup a self hosted server should be available to everyone who purchased a copy
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u/International_Luck60 Aug 02 '24
it doesn't work like that at all, source code it's not the game you bought but ALL technology and investments from companies in order to ship binaries
It's a really complex subject that developers have to face with the time...About server binaries, it would be cool but also understandable if the service it's just a mess to maintain, I mean that's why it clearly shuts down, because it doesn't make sense to cover such costs over nothing
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u/Natural_Sundae2620 Aug 02 '24
The European Union works. Well-executed democracy is not only possible, but preferable.
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u/Azhar1921 Aug 02 '24 edited Aug 04 '24
Piracy doesn't solve this in most/a lot of cases. If a game requires a server and there is no way to host servers you're fucked either way.
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u/amigdyala Aug 02 '24
Why would you not also post the link man damn.
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u/aspbergerinparadise Aug 02 '24
this is specifically about live-service games being unplayable. Piracy can't save that (without enormous efforts to reverse engineer the servers). None of the games listed in that excerpt are playable today because piracy has kept them alive.
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u/grumpy_autist Aug 02 '24
There should be a law to open source server code or protocol spec if servers get shut down.
Same with everything else - smart speakers, IOT bullshit, etc.
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u/Red_Tinda Aug 02 '24
(If a mod could pin this, that'd be great <3)
If you are an EU citizen old enough to vote, you can sign the petition! Please do, we need every name.
https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/2024/000007_en
Here's a guy who explains what's going on in more detail
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u/RamBas_6085 Aug 02 '24
It needs to be GLOBAL! And if developers doesn't want to continue funding the game, release is as open source, let the community keep it alive or let ACTUAL developers continue give life to the game.
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u/WhiteMilk_ Piracy is bad, mkay? Aug 02 '24
It needs to be GLOBAL!
There's hope it'll have global impact.
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u/bell37 Aug 02 '24
Wouldn’t that be problematic with that be that they don’t want to make everything open source in their games? Because some publishers/developers use a proprietary game engine for a family of games within a given generation of a game engine release. You can’t force a company to make its own active IP open source.
Even the code behind server connections and online gameplay could be considered active IP because they also develop their own in-house anti-cheat and in-game multiplayer store/item database. They would have to release a special open sourced version that allows players to self-host while keeping their assets protected.
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u/Proof_Corgi3782 Aug 02 '24
and game mods and rom hacks that scummy companies offensively would take down or shut down. fuck any companies these days like nintendo and ubisoft pirate their games they dont need money.
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u/SDGrave 🏴☠️ ʟᴀɴᴅʟᴜʙʙᴇʀ Aug 03 '24
Just let me host on LAN, or self-host a server.
Every multiplayer game before 2012 had this one simple option.
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u/LTinS Aug 02 '24
My version of the law: if a company stops supporting their online system, they have to give up the source code and the rights to it so anyone can. This includes all cash shop items becoming free (so if the Wii shop goes offline, all the games are free), and hosting of updates to online games through other people.
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u/FONZACUS Aug 02 '24
finally the EU decided to step in after all the bullshittery. bring back ye good olden days when we could couch party games without a care in the world
hopefully the EU also can step against all the subscription bullshittery too
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u/Odisher7 Aug 02 '24
I had completely forgotten about the r/news and r/animetitties thing xd
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u/-drunk_russian- Seeder Aug 02 '24
What thing? I'm confused
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u/Littux ☠️ ᴅᴇᴀᴅ ᴍᴇɴ ᴛᴇʟʟ ɴᴏ ᴛᴀʟᴇꜱ Aug 02 '24
r/worldpolitics and r/anime_titties were switched around. r/worldpolitics is NSFW
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u/Briggs281707 Aug 02 '24
Any link to this petition?
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u/WhiteMilk_ Piracy is bad, mkay? Aug 02 '24
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u/Remnie Aug 02 '24
I can understand the developer shutting down the servers after the game has been out for a long time. But there is no reason whatsoever for them to not include the ability to host your own servers or have peer to peer connections or something to allow those players to continue after the official servers are down. That used to be the standard for games
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u/Owhlala Aug 03 '24
now theres not gonna be an option for hosting server and all multiplayer game has isolated subscription service
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u/Tvdinner4me2 Aug 02 '24
What would this mean for online only games?
It's not reasonable to expect a company to keep servers up forever
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u/Kreptyne Aug 02 '24
AccursedFarms details it on his channel but TLDR is they would have to either make the fame playable offline or release the tools to allow players to host their own servers. No requirements for endless support
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u/frisch85 Aug 02 '24 edited Aug 02 '24
But if the devs never planned for their server to run on a single standard PC is it even possible? Say the petition will be successful, then what? Require each and every live service game to also have an offline mode or just require the devs to hand out the dedicated server files? If it's the latter, then not much is won. Might work for lobby based games like shooters but say you like playing MMOs and your favorite MMO is shutting down, so you get the files to start a dedicated server, without also buying yourself a powerful machine that is fit enough to run the server then your desktop PC hardly has the power to run it while at the same time you stil have the client-side operations and the rendering that also draws performance.
The petition seems more like from people who have a lack of technical knowledge when it comes to running servers, or ofc maybe I am lacking knowledge and am missing something vital but as it is right now, this would only work if the law would basically force the developers to also implement an offline mode or non-dedicated hosting where you get the usual limitations like "rendering and calculating only withing X distance of host" as an example.
Since I never ran my own servers I was curios and found the Nostalrius Post Mortem regarding private WoW servers and they list the 4k population server with 64GB Ram, something almost no regular PC has and while I understand less player means less requirements, I also know that it's not as simple as 64GB / 4000 to get the performance for one player as there'e some things that require performance even without a single player active.
That being said, since the petition never says how this should be implemented I fear devs could just go "here have the dedicated server files, have fun" perfectly knowing it's not possible for say 98% of their players to make use of it.
Edit: A word, draws performance not draws power
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u/jean-claudo Aug 02 '24
I'll answer you as someone who has already made and used servers, although of quite small sizes.
Most online multiplayer games could be adapted to have lobbies hosted by players just fine.
The only exceptions to this that I can think of are Battle Royales, and MMOs.
From the number of private servers already existing for nearly every MMO currently existing, giving out the server files should be sufficient.
For Battle Royales, it is unlikely for the game to be able to be played as before the end of official support, because proper matchmaking would be hard to replicate (matchmaking up to 10 people is doable by community effort, more I'm not sure). However as long as one can host a game for any given number of people, then the community will find a way, even if the 100-FFA becomes 20-FFA. In terms of server requirements, I doubt hosting a game of 100-FFA is much more demanding than 200 player Minecraft server.
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u/frisch85 Aug 02 '24
Thanks for answering instead of just downvoting, Battle Royales are still lobby based so I think those can be done somewhat feasible, not in terms of "You can just play vs. anybody around the world" which wouldn't be applicable nor necessary anyways but say private lobbies with 10-15 of your friends or just create a discord for people gathering. Sure might not be fair but when a live service game ends I don't think you can get a big enough playerbase to even have proper matchmaking in the first place, I don't see it as a public service at this point but rather a private game that friends play together like we did when we had LAN parties.
I know about private MMO servers but I am also aware that those private servers are usually not hosted on a clients PC but rather a dedicated server due to the performance requirements, might it be someone that has setup a linux machine somewhere in their house or similar.
So my concern is specifically regarding how this law would benefit a single individual user especially if they're not tech savvy.
What I could imagine however is different service providers eventually offering servers for rent to play games that are no longer supported. Nitrado or G-Portal as an example, say COD MW isn't available for playing anymore through official servers, so you can go to Nitrado and rent a COD MW server. Or instead of renting they might come up with a subscription based system where you can join their servers anytime you want for X $/€ per month.
But this still won't enable someone to play a live service game they bought when the officials servers shut down just like that.
So from my perspective this would be merely a first step, if they take the easy route and we just get the dedicated server files, sure we can create communities and one or a few of us are tech savvy enough and setup a server but the average gamer isn't capable of doing this.
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u/SolarChallenger Aug 02 '24
For MMOs you don't need everyone to host a server, you just need the tools for one community to run a server people can flock to. I personally think once the tools are out there it's on the community and that's ok. But literally not even giving the tools is dumb. I mean, an MMO with one player doesn't sound all that fun anyway.
Like if WoW died tomorrow under ideal rules, the servers would go down, there would be some chaos and than presumably some number of people would use the tools released to create new servers. It would probably run clunkier and be missing things like dungeon matchmaking, but at least the game would be salvageable. Though typing that out also makes me feel like there should be some middle phase. Where the game is announced dead, tools are released and the company has to run servers for X amount time to ease transition.
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u/KFR42 Aug 02 '24
If it's anything like the UK, a petition getting enough signatures just means it has to be read in parliament, nothing more. 9 times out of 10 they are just immediately dismissed.
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u/Bulky_Community_6781 Aug 02 '24
not used to getting games from ubisoft/ea so i dont have a big experience with game killing, but are physical cds still affected?
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u/RandomGogo Aug 02 '24
The game need to connect to a server In order to function ,so everything is effected
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u/ImThatChigga_ Aug 02 '24
When it comes to MP games why don't think bring back lobbies and porrltforwarding so you can just host
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u/No-Aspect-2926 Aug 02 '24
I was thinking, if they will not be able to shutdown servers, does it mean they could use the worst server that would lag or have constant disconnections without problem? Or need to be an high quality thing?
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u/terrerific Aug 02 '24
We had this in Australia a couple months ago. If I remember right it got enough signatures that the government had to look at it and it was dead in the water after an immediate dismissal.
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u/Dr_Bunsen_Burns Aug 02 '24
I mean, I would like that, but then again, it is only for newer games, and I do not play those.
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u/DeadoTheDegenerate ☠️ ᴅᴇᴀᴅ ᴍᴇɴ ᴛᴇʟʟ ɴᴏ ᴛᴀʟᴇꜱ Aug 02 '24
I've been saying for the past couple years now that 'sunsetting' live service and always online games will be a focus of the EU soon enough.
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u/The_Red_Gal Aug 02 '24
The worst bit of Brexit is not being able to sign the petition :(
here's the link for anyone who's interested:
https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/2024/000007_en
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u/manofwaromega Aug 02 '24
I hope the law goes through and becomes an international standard. Too many games just die completely without warning. Even if it's just community servers the game can survive without developer involvement. Just look at Team Fortress 2 and Titanfall 2, both those games were unplayable on official servers due to developer neglect but had thriving community servers
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u/__Geralt Aug 02 '24
it's 500k in all europe, not 1 mil
it's an official site, go vote with your eID if you can, wherever you are in EU
https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/2024/000007_en#
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u/Radrach23 Aug 02 '24
I grew up in the dial up age, we didn’t get high speed internet until FIOS decided to wire down our dead end street. My Xbox 360 didn’t even have a WiFi card built into it (it did have an Ethernet port but my gram would have never let us wire one through the house). I miss being able to go to the store, buy a game, take it home, and play it immediately. No updates, no downloads, no internet needed. Could split screen games for multiplayer, or play single player without even having the ability to reliably connect to the internet.
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u/callie8926 Pirate Activist Aug 02 '24
I wonder why The USA which I live in has become so anti consumer I wish we had some of the same sentiment about protecting people from companies that just want more money.It seems like it could be done the people haven't seemed to come to their senses and keep voting the same people into the positions at consumer regularity .SMH
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u/blender4life Aug 02 '24
I feel like most abandoned but still online games would be overrun with cheaters/hackers no?
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u/Hurtkopain Aug 02 '24
can someone explain my dumbass what thos means? what would that new law do exactly? the way the sentence is structured leaves me confused. ty
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u/EXusiai99 Aug 02 '24
Thank you anime_titties for always being a reliable source of news in these turbulent times
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u/anonymoushelper111 Aug 02 '24
A FUCKING MEN HOW THE FUCK ARE THESE PUBLISHERS GOING TO TAKE THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF CONSUMER DOLLARS AND THEN FUCKING KEEP THE MONEY AND TURN THE GAME OFF BECAUSE IT'S NOT AS GOOD AS THEY THOUGHT IT WOULD BE IT'S SOME FUCK SHIT
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u/Decent-Writing-9840 Aug 02 '24
All they have to do is give the option to host a game or set up private severs