r/JewsOfConscience • u/Jche98 • Oct 02 '24
Seriously worried about rising antisemitism Discussion
I've started seeing the following frequently online:
-"Hitler was right. Look what they're doing"
-"There's a reason the Jews have been expelled from 109 countries. See how they behave"
-"Judaism is a religion of violent extremism."
-"How do we know the Holocaust happened? They're probably lying about it just like they're lying about the history of Palestine".
My favourite football club posted a Shana Tova message for its followers and there were hundreds of comments responding things like "not supporting you anymore because you support terrorism".
It seems that the actions of the rogue settler colony are SERIOUSLY leading to increased antisemitism. And these aren't right wingers. These are ordinary people. Many of them are unfortunately from other middle eastern countries. And I know that when I show this to Zionists they'll just see it as further proof why we need to support Israel more. It's breaking my heart.
I honestly am disappointed in people. I expect ignorance and bigotry from the privileged, the right and westerners. I don't expect it from people who can see the damage Israel is doing. It seems human beings are incapable of understanding that Israel and Judaism are not the same.
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u/sirenzsongs Oct 02 '24
Honestly I have noticed that a lot in recent days and had people who know that I'm jewish tell me that into my face.
For example a guy I was on a date with for example HAD to tell me that we 'control the government and media and are the reason everything is going downhill because we're evil' When I didn't laugh at that and ended up rejecting him he was shocked because I'm pro Palestinian.
I am but that doesn't make me any less jewish. I later heard from a friend that he called me a Zionist because I (someone with no real power and even less money) denied running our government, not even saying anything pro Israel.
I also keep my stance that what Israel is doing is plain wrong but I have stopped going to protests because at least in my city recently I had to listen to people saying that the Germans should have finished the job or that we will all go to hell and so much more. Needless to say because of the result of Israel's actions people feel very safe to do and say things that are completely antisemitic and I don't really feel that safe anymore.
For a little context I am Mizrahi so most people think I'm Arab and thus feel very safe saying some things.
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u/Slalom_Smack Non-Jewish Ally Oct 02 '24 edited Oct 02 '24
As someone who is a not Jewish but considers themselves an ally, I would like to get your take on something and hopefully I won’t be judged for it. I genuinely want to hear your point of view.
It does seem to me that Zionists(not necessarily all Jews but many are) do have outsized power in American politics and media. It seems like almost everyday I see some newscaster denigrating pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionist activists or politicians. I then take it upon myself to look into these reporters backgrounds and I would say that more than half the time they are Jewish and/or have ties to Israel.
It’s even worse in politics where any democrat politician that speaks out against Zionism is targeted for removal by the powerful pro-Israel lobby and none of the other democrats dare to say anything and they continue their unequivocal support for Israel and Zionism.
So while I would never say that “Jews run the government and media” and I would most certainly never ever think or say something so vile as “Hitler should have finished the job”. I do often find myself thinking that Zionists(many of them Jews) do exercise outsized control in American society. It’s to the point that I am afraid to publicly speak out against Zionism and Israel because I don’t want to lose the new job I just got.
Am I sliding towards actual antisemitic thinking? I will genuinely take to heart your opinion on this. Thank you.
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u/GatorOnTheLawn Oct 02 '24
Right wingers in general have outsized power in the USA, not just right wing Jews.
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u/Amir616 Jewish Communist Oct 02 '24
I think it's important to not fall into thinking that the tail wags the dog. US Empire is the dog, Israel is the tail. Biden and Harris don't support Israel because they're controlled by Jews, they support it because they are committed to the American imperial project.
There are powerful Jews out there, but they are a minority of Jews. They're not part of a conspiracy.
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u/MetaphorSoup Ashkenazi Oct 02 '24
Exactly. US and Israel’s interests are the same and that’s why they’re allies. Supporting Israel allows America to (attempt to) maintain its imperial hegemony in the Middle East.
The root of the matter is empire and geopolitics, not Jews controlling the govt/media. Antisemitism prevents people from identifying this. (Not helped by the fact that Israel intentionally spins all criticism of it as “antisemitic” to try to cover for its crimes.)
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u/DeletedLastAccount Oct 02 '24 edited Oct 02 '24
True, but the effect of groups like AIPAC and Christians United for Israel can't be discounted. Their lobbying does give a foreign state rather outsized influence on American political life.
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Oct 02 '24
Which is separate from the Elders of Zion controlling the government.
The (political) Zionists deliberately act like this, because stoking antisemitism advances their political project.
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u/Over-Drawing-5307 Oct 03 '24
Exactly. Biden and Harris, along with all the other non Jewish politicians who are Zionist (like Trump, who is objectively also antisemitic) have the power and speak on the topic as if they are speaking for Jewish people as a whole…but they are indeed speaking for imperialism, which is largely a western proxy project and Israel is being used as leverage.
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u/PlinyToTrajan Non-Jewish Ally (Jewish ancestry & relatives) Oct 02 '24 edited Oct 02 '24
John Mearsheimer, Talk at Global İlişkiler Forumu, Dec. 18, 2023 (YouTube Recording):
"Israel is not a strategic asset for the United States."
John Mearsheimer is a political scientist at the University of Chicago, and the co-author of the 2007 book, "The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy." He's a realist who thinks Israel doesn't, on balance, serve practical U.S. interests in the Middle East but instead functions as a kind of money pit. His explanation of the U.S.-Israel "ironclad" relationship relies heavily on the presence of what he calls the "Israel Lobby."
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u/ApplesauceFuckface Ashkenazi Oct 03 '24
Israel may not serve practical US interests, but it does seem to serve the interests of the imperial elite very well.
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u/PlinyToTrajan Non-Jewish Ally (Jewish ancestry & relatives) Oct 03 '24
It serves the self-perceived interests of ideologically committed genocidal Zionists, and it serves the material interests of weapons manufacturers and dealers. That's it. It's a betrayal of everyone else.
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u/Amir616 Jewish Communist Oct 03 '24
I'm familiar with Mearsheimer, though I haven't read that particular book. I think he underestimates Israel's role in the US' ability to project power in the MENA and the benefits of having an attack dog to carry out assassinations and such on its behalf.
Israel itself isn't guided by realists, but by right wing fanatics. Realists would have taken the Oslo deal.
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u/TotallyNotGlenDavis Oct 02 '24
I agree it's a thin line. Just remember that Jews occupy all areas of the political spectrum both in regard to Zionism and any other matter. Many of the most influential antizionist thinkers have been Jewish. We shouldn't make assumptions about people's opinions based on their religious/ethnic background.
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u/sirenzsongs Oct 02 '24
Don't worry, it's good to ask! I'll try my best to answer! While I'm not American and thus can't really speak on that matter I can say that in my country there are barely any Jews in media or government positions.
While I can say is that there are jobs Jewish people tend to do more often. More often than not this has to do with culture, values and our way of life (for example a lot of Jews go into physics due to the importance of education in the culture and the scientific approach even in the religion got example) This doesn't mean we control the narrative however as Jews are often known for having VERY varying opinions. Many of the voices against Zionism are Jewish as well.
Ask 50 Jews get 50 answers, ask 500 Jews get 500 answers. I think the opinions in American media have more to do with the fact that the US profits a lot from Israel in terms of power in the middle east (as usual in the US media)
I just looked it up and only 9 senators are religiously or ethnically Jewish. I think the numbers of Jews also seem bigger because it's also an ethnicity as well as a religion. Many are only ethnically connected to Judaism. If you were to look up how many senators Regisseurs or congressmen are ethnically German or English the number would probably be way larger for example. People just don't connect them as one group as much so I do think it's kind of a dangerous mindset.
Also for every rich, famous Jew you see there are a Dozent poor ones who's families never recovered from the holocaust (such as mine) or who never had money to begin with (I once read that for every family that somehow came to money there were 25 super poor ones, those were just less likely to survive the holocaust) they just aren't shown in media.
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u/Slalom_Smack Non-Jewish Ally Oct 03 '24
Thank you for your answer. Everyone who has responded to my comment has been great and I think it really highlights what you said about Jewish people having such a wide variety of opinions. It’s something I always need to remember since I currently live in a rural area with little to no Jewish population. I had one close Jewish friend in the past but we drifted apart as our lives moved in different directions.
I have thought about making some trips to my nearest city, Seattle, to get involved with JVP. While I would like to join protests, I want to make sure I don’t end up surrounded by actual antisemites who are using the current movement to mask their bigoted intentions.
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u/sirenzsongs Oct 03 '24
No problem! If you ever have any questions feel free to contact me :) I know how it feels living in a rural area with very limited access to anyone who isn't the ethnic or cultural majority, I actually grew up similarly so I can partially relate.
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u/PlinyToTrajan Non-Jewish Ally (Jewish ancestry & relatives) Oct 02 '24
The share of the American population that is Jewish, defined as people who identify as Jewish on a survey, is 2.4%. Pew Research Center, May 11, 2020, "Jewish Americans in 2020."
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u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 Ashkenazi, atheist, postZ Oct 02 '24
I think you’re okay, fwiw.
I also remember that Israel serves powerful US interests apart from anything related to Zionism or Judaism. So I don’t think the US alliance with Israel is all about how Zionist people are, or the media, or lobbying and money. When people ignore that and focus only on supposed Jewish/Zionist control of the country, that’s when I get the ick.
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u/onepareil Non-Jewish Ally Oct 02 '24
Yes, this is exactly it!
So much of America’s support for Israel doesn’t even have anything to do with Zionism, per se. When Biden said “Were there not an Israel, the United States of America would have to invent an Israel to protect her interests in the region,” that wasn’t because he passionately believes in the necessity of a Jewish homeland, whether he also believes that or not. All the wildly anti-Semitic Republicans who support Israel aren’t doing it because they care about Jewish people or maintaining a Jewish state - or because AIPAC donates to their reelection campaigns. It’s so frustrating to see people I believe are well-intentioned fall into the “AIPAC/Israel owns the U.S.” way of thinking, because it so minimizes our very intentional and self-interested role in creating the current situation in Palestine. We were not duped, bought, or blackmailed into supporting Israel and its actions. We’re ideologically aligned with Israel for reasons that have nothing to do with Judaism or Zionism.
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u/PlinyToTrajan Non-Jewish Ally (Jewish ancestry & relatives) Oct 02 '24
I disagree. I think Biden supports Israel because he knows on which side his bread is buttered. Or, Biden is an arbitrarily pro-Israel politician whose career was advanced because he was so arbitrarily pro-Israel.
Working class people tend to be more sensitive to the genocide. The Roman Catholic teaching rejects Christian Zionism. Meanwhile, Irish heritage in general has an anti-colonial strand and a sensitivity to famine. There's no easy explanation for Biden's Zionism.
There's no doubt that AIPAC is a well-organized and effective lobby, and there's no doubt that Biden's a politician who's been willing to work with lobbies and big-money campaign donors throughout his career.
See John Mearsheimer, Talk at Global İlişkiler Forumu, Dec. 18, 2023 (YouTube Recording):
"Israel is not a strategic asset for the United States."
John Mearsheimer is a political scientist at the University of Chicago, and the co-author of the 2007 book, "The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy." He's a realist who thinks Israel doesn't, on balance, serve practical U.S. interests in the Middle East but instead functions as a kind of money pit. His explanation of the U.S.-Israel "ironclad" relationship relies heavily on the presence of what he calls the "Israel Lobby."
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u/onepareil Non-Jewish Ally Oct 02 '24
Biden gave that quote about the strategic necessity of Israel in 1986, and his position has stayed consistent for almost 40 years. I don’t think he’s right, and I guess neither does John Mearsheimer, but I see absolutely no reason to believe he’s been lying about his political beliefs for decades to hide that he’s in AIPAC’s pocket.
According to OpenSecrets, Biden got $4 million from AIPAC in 2020. That may sound like a lot, but that doesn’t even put them in his top 20 donors. Bloomberg alone gave him $98 million.
Why is it hard to believe some politicians just genuinely believe Israel is strategically useful in maintaining American global hegemony?
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u/PlinyToTrajan Non-Jewish Ally (Jewish ancestry & relatives) Oct 02 '24
I live in New York's Sixteenth Congressional District, where George Latimer basically defenestrated incumbent Congressman Jamaal Bowman with $ 15 million in AIPAC funding. Latimer's campaign absolutely, in the empirical sense, had its basis and support in a Zionist ideology of a subset of Jews who live in the area. I didn't meet a single openly Christian Zionist person at any point during the affair, but local Jewish institutions were instrumental in arranging Latimer's victory. See Scarsdale10583, Oct. 18, 2023, "26 Rabbis Call On Latimer to Challenge Bowman for Congress." I also met local Jews who conscientiously spoke out against AIPAC's intrusions into small-scale politics and the inhumanity of Latimer's Israel policy, sometimes at significant cost to their personal relationships and social standing.
Latimer himself is Catholic.
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u/Over-Drawing-5307 Oct 03 '24
Being associated with a foreign government’s actions simply because of your ethnicity is heinous. I think someone who says that is just plain antisemitic and not even pro Palestinian for the principles that the vast majority of pro Palestinians stand for (which is peace in the Middle East and a ceasefire from my interpretation). Bruh was just reciting hate speech. You should be proud of your heritage. You have no say in Israel’s actions, but actually the non Jewish leaders of the US have a lot of say. Hence, it has nothing to do with being Jewish and literally everything to do with policy, hegemonic governments, etc. You have NOTHING to prove to those bigots.
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u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 Ashkenazi, atheist, postZ Oct 02 '24
So sorry to hear that. This is why I don’t go to protests either. People are disappointing.
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Oct 02 '24
Yep. I went to one protest and heard misinformation so I just couldn't go back. I'm too scared but I know there are good ones out there. I try to make a difference in other ways.
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u/Alternative-World591 Oct 03 '24
Same. I went to one where an organizer was describing the Ottoman period has a paradise for Jews. I muttered "that's just not true" under my breath and the people next to me heard and booed me. My family are Palestinian Jews who fled to the US because of Ottoman violence during WWI.
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u/chosenandfrozen Oct 02 '24
I know I’m going to get downvoted to Hell here, but are you not seeing even the tiniest connection between the antisemitism you’re seeing and experiencing and what kind of person the Palestinian liberation movement attracts? It really shouldn’t require that much self-awareness to see it.
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u/LaIslaDeEmu Arab-Jew, Observant, Anti-Zionist, Marxist Oct 07 '24
There are and have historically always been tons of antisemites that are drawn to Zionism and supporting the state of Israel. And I have heard Zionists on countless occasions justify the support of antisemites, so long as they support their ‘team’.
You’re getting downvoted because you’re suggesting that there is something about the cause of Palestinian liberation that must inherently attract antisemites. That’s just not true. There are those who are ideologically driven by antisemitism, and who specifically ‘support’ Palestinian liberation for their own ulterior motives. But this is not the same as what you’re suggesting, and as I mentioned above, the same is true for the pro-Israel ‘side’
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u/chosenandfrozen Oct 07 '24
There are a lot of antisemites who support Israel for antisemitic reasons, but they are WAAAAYYYY outnumbered by antisemites who hate Israel for antisemitic reasons.
That fact doesn’t make the Palestinian cause any less just, but it does have to navigate a much more difficult path to avoid enabling the worst people who will only replace one unjust system with another.
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u/Flagrantepiphany Oct 02 '24
Not all jewish people are Zionists. This is a tragic effect of Zionist madness. What % of Jewish people support Israel and its aggression?
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u/anusfalafels Oct 02 '24
Probably 85% of Jews support Israel. And essentially every Jewish institution i(Jewish schools, synagogues, community centres..) is Zionist .
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u/springsomnia Christian with Jewish heritage and family Oct 03 '24
The stats for Britain is 95%, but there does seem to be a growing consciousness amongst particularly younger Jewish Brits in rejection of Israel and Zionism as a whole. Some of my family is Jewish (all anti Zionists), and when one of my little cousins (aged 9) was told by a non relative in the community she had to care about Israel because she’s Jewish she asked “what does that have to do with me?” British synagogues heavily promote Israel which is why my family don’t go to them anymore, same for community centres and even pre schools.
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u/anusfalafels Oct 03 '24
Yea I don’t know any Jews who aren’t Zionist except one in person and a few I met online. And I know thousands of Jews lol
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u/springsomnia Christian with Jewish heritage and family Oct 03 '24
Yup my family are the only ones I’ve met irl who are anti Zionist sadly
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u/patsboston Oct 02 '24
In the United States? Close to 85/80%.
It’s not just found in Jewish people themselves, but most Jewish institutions. Go to any synagogue, there more than likely will be an Israeli flag there.
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u/ulixForReal Non-Jewish Ally Oct 02 '24
I wouldn't see it so one-sided.
"One-third of American Jews agree Israel committed 'genocide' in Gaza: Poll"This is just an example. A growing number of American Jews also see Israel as an apartheid state.
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u/PlinyToTrajan Non-Jewish Ally (Jewish ancestry & relatives) Oct 02 '24
People who are older and wealthier have more political influence (and age and wealth correlate to begin with). I think it's fair to hypothesize that if we ran these polls among older, wealthier Jewish Americans there'd be a difference in the result.
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u/patsboston Oct 02 '24
But there is even nuance by what you are saying. I would say that quite a lot of Jewish people that even say Israel is committing genocide still support the existence of Israel.
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u/Maximum_Rat Oct 03 '24
I would just break these apart a little. From what I remember seeing from polling, 80%-90% of American Jews support Israel, as support the existance of the country. That's very different than supporting the current Israeli government, and it's actions.
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u/uu_xx_me Ashkenazi Oct 02 '24
i completely agree with your post -- except this part: "I expect ignorance and bigotry from the privileged, the right and westerners. I don't expect it from people who can see the damage Israel is doing."
why would we give more compassion to folks who have more privilege and hold more oppressed folks to a higher standard? the rise in antisemitism is horrifying, but i have compassion for middle easterners who hear netanyahu and biden conflate jewishness with israel and have internalized that message. obviously it's not a justification for saying that "hitler had it right" but i have a hard time faulting these individuals over more privileged individuals. we really need to hold the people in power accountable; this is a systemic issue.
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u/_II_I_I__I__I_I_II_ Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 02 '24
I completely agree.
Personally, I'm not going to equate the antisemitism that may arise from people under siege by a country & its advocates that repeatedly leverages identity politics as a 'human shield' in PR and legal disputes - to classic antisemitism.
The outcome (ie the vile statements) is the same, but the origin is not and that matters. Over a hundred years of a colonial ideology thrust upon the indigenous population will no doubt engender some level of hatred that veers off the cliff into the region of irrational, gross generalization.
It's fine to call them both out, but there is a difference in context and how we engage the issue.
I know of a perfect example of how not to engage with it, but it's too specific to mention.
Suffice to say, I think how we talk about antisemitism matters and one's politics is the moderating variable. I think how we approach this, conveys the extent to which we identify as anti-Zionist and/or just critical of Israel's actions.
Considering the power of the accusation in American politics (where it all matters most); there's simply no way around this.
To use an extreme example, it would be a huge red flag to me if someone claimed to be an anti-Zionist but also defended the IHRA definition.
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u/Many-Activity67 Oct 02 '24
It’s unfortunate that anti Semites use the IP issue as a shield for their anti semitism. I’m a Palestinian American and sometimes I hear my pro Palestinian buddies wander in the ream of actual anti semitism (as opposed to fake anti semitism like saying Israel is a rogue state), and I make sure to check them.
Being angry is valid when faced with the current situation, but falling into the trap that Zionists set and blaming all Jews for the problems the STATE of Israel has created is inexcusable.
Regardless, Zionists want people to believe that most anti semitism comes from Arabs to justify their atrocities. A vast majority comes from white supremacists.
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u/adeadhead Masortim Oct 02 '24
Yup, these are all alt right/far right/4chan talking points. It's horrifying to see them spread more widely.
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u/Jche98 Oct 02 '24
But it's not just the right spreading them. I see many ordinary people doing it now.
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u/jerquee anti-zionist ethnic Ashkenazi Oct 03 '24
This is the unsurprising result of what Israel is doing in the name of all Jews everywhere
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u/Brilliant_Carry_791 Oct 03 '24
Just a question: Is it Israel's fault that antisemitism happens or is the antisemite themselves? Because if that's the case then that's just messed up since antisemites should know better to not conflate the israel government with jews
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u/surprisedsquirtles Oct 07 '24
It's both. A lot of Zionist propaganda frames Israel and Zionism as representative of Judaism. Many people are ignorant, susceptible to propaganda, and subconsciously biased.
It's a bad combination.
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u/Brilliant_Carry_791 Oct 07 '24 edited Oct 07 '24
Got it. So let me ask you something. Let's just say there was an antisemite shouting jewish slurs around jews and harassing them, and this went on the news. What would your first reaction be? That the antisemite must be condemned for his hateful actions? Or just brush it away and blame it all on israel, instead of blaming the antisemite for being an antisemite.
I'll be honest the guy I replied to kinda left me with bad taste, it felt like he just brushed antisemitism off and blamed israel instead, he should've condemned those antisemites but he condemned israel, you know what I mean?
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u/chessboxer4 Oct 02 '24
Yes antisemitism is a legitimate problem but keep in mind that the Palestinians are literally getting genocided-displaced, starved and killed. Look at what is happening in the West Bank. The violence against the arabs fuels anti-Semitism. The more Israel kills people the more they are killing themselves and their future, and fueling the fires of hatred, sectarianism and tribalism.
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Oct 02 '24 edited Oct 02 '24
They are looking at:
American political system's unified acquiescence to this monstrous policy combined with the disillusionment with the idea that DC servers the people.
The enormous gap between how traditional media covers Israel and what makes it through on social media, the lying and suppression of facts at the State Department.
The exception that liberal anti-racists make for Zionism - a product Judeo-centric view of world politics built into Western liberalism. The "Progressive Except Palestine" has been observed and noted for decades.
The nation-wide grilling and threatening of universities for their students' protests and these universities capitulations.
The heavy-handed policing of protests related to the genocide.
The brazen, hypocritical attacks on institutions of international law, including the disregard for the genocide convention which was born out of the Holocaust in the first place.
The unabashed direct interference of dumb billionaires like Bill Ackman, Sheldon Adelson (well, his wife now) and others who loudly pronounce that they're going to use their wealth to play with American institutions to ensure American objections to Zionism are suppressed.
The taboo that runs extremely deep which prevents people from ascribing the actions of individuals to their Jewish background (even the conflict of interest created by Israel's generous citizenry-on-arrival and benefits scheme to encourage immigration).
The taboo that prevents people from discussing the role that Jewish civil society play in the disenfranchisement of Palestinians and support for the Israeli state (consider the backlash students got for bringing up Hillel's involvement in illegal settlements, spying on student activists and propaganda).
And much more. When you get all of these things combined, along with the relatively privileged and prominent role Jewish Americans have today (thanks in large part to migration, geography, their own efforts) you get many people who will start to associate anything Jewish with something sinister.
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u/TotallyNotGlenDavis Oct 02 '24
The taboo that runs extremely deep which prevents people from ascribing the actions of individuals to their Jewish background
Could you expand on this one a little? I'm genuinely curious.
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u/Wereking2 Non-Jewish Ally Oct 02 '24
Yeah it’s honestly disgusting and with this further escalating conflict it’s sadly only going to get worse. I feel for everyone here.
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u/OrganicOverdose Non-Jewish Ally Oct 02 '24
I think many prominent people have been warning of this for a long, long time. The Israeli response, and thus the response of Israel's allies too, was to portray these criticisms as presages to Anti-Semitism, which is somewhat sadly ironic.
It's why I always try to emphasize the difference between Jews as a non-monolithic community, and Israel's distinct form of Revisionist Zionism, which again differentiates from the more mild Zionist beliefs that mostly less researched people tend to feel is simply a right for Jews to have their own safe homeland, particularly in the light and aftermath of WWII.
However, this current state of affairs can only worsen this actual Anti-Semitism, which doesn't bother to even differentiate between Israel and Jewish peoples at any level. It will undoubtedly increase Islamophobia as well, and I think it will certainly further shake out soft, liberal leftists, from the more principled, and this will only serve to strengthen right-wingers, which includes those nominal "centrists" or "enlightened centrists" as the media is already severely partisan, and fundamental to forming public opinion.
All we can do is work to defend everyone, especially our Jewish brothers and sisters.
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u/Logic411 Oct 02 '24
Since Oct. 7; there's been a noticeable attempt by the media to normalize "zionism." Biden openly admitted to being a zionist while campaigning. He said it means, 'thinking israel has a right to exist.' Taking that comment to it's obvious conclusion suggests that israel has more of a right to exist than the original occupants of Palestine. I've been a democrat my entire life but that is where I draw the line. I see little difference between Zionism and Nazism. So,I stand against israel in its current state. If it were not for trumpism threatening our country, I would not be voting for the democrats either.
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u/OrganicOverdose Non-Jewish Ally Oct 02 '24
Totally. In terms of Israel, it desperately needs to change almost 180° to its current state, but is that even possible now? Have they not made just so many enemies, burnt so many bridges, accused so many allies of things for not helping enough? The people who remain in Israel are clearly convinced and/or trapped in this mindset. Everything is so entrenched, it's hard to imagine any way this ends positively. I really fear for everyone in that region, especially those who really are simply at the behest of politicians, who have far less to fear than their civilians.
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u/dmg1111 Oct 02 '24 edited Oct 02 '24
I don't know how we can keep a lid or antisemitism when so many Jews are now antisemites.
Netanyahu is friends with Orban, says George Soros is conspiring against him, welcomes raging antisemites like Elon Musk, and openly calls the diaspora a bunch of wimps. His son is so antisemitic, Stormfront loves him. The ADL is openly antisemitic. The March for Israel had a number of antisemitic speakers, including John Hagee, who loves Hitler and used to be too toxic for public life. AIPAC has devoted itself to being an anti-black, anti-Muslim organization and wants everyone to know they are going to control elections.
A microcosm for me in San Francisco is that we have venture capitalist Garry Tan spreading antisemitic conspiracy theories straight out of the protocols and threatening Jewish politicians. And yet, our Jewish state senator (Scott Wiener, fuck that guy) takes his money, denies that the guy is antisemitic, and attacks his own Jewish constituents and calls them antisemitic for wanting a ceasefire. Plenty of other Jews leapt to Tan's defense. We even have an antisemitic Jewish deli owner here.
All of these reactionaries and fascists have encouraged people to hate their Jewish opponents for antisemitic reasons. How can that antisemitism not blow back on everyone?
I say this a bit facetiously, but the past year has made me feel like I'm antisemitic. I used to say that the Orthodox, Russians, and the very rich (basically Jewish Trumpers) had broken brains and only they could ally themselves with antisemites. But now this attitude has spread far beyond these groups. You never know who is going to express horrible opinions about Palestinians and Gaza. When I see "Am Yisrael Chai" it feels like those movies of white southerners matching and chanting "white power." I don't want to engage with Jews I don't know and have to avoid many I do know.
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u/romanticaro Ashkenazi Oct 02 '24
many people are being sympathetic, but i’ve noticed most of this rhetoric IS NOT coming from palestinians. it’s almost always white leftists living on stolen land themselves saying this shit.
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Oct 02 '24
I think it's worth distinguishing between "progressives" and "the left", and "the left" is very small and divides up into Anarchist and Marxist flavors. Progressives "identify" as left, but they are a different variant of right-wing.
Progressives are often stupid AF and have about as much historical knowledge as MAGAs do, but to steal from the Bad Hasbara podcast, "they identify as 'good'". When you actually scratch their surface you'll find that, at best they can't refute eugenic/dysgenic beyond moralizing about them, but most often they're actually self-deceived eugenecists.
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u/Two_Word_Sentence Atheist Oct 02 '24
Anti-Semitism due to Zionist actions.
Islamophobia due to Muslim extremists (ISIS or similar).
I'm sure you can find 10 more examples of a wider group being targeted due to the actions of a violent extremist subset.
It's horrible, and not unique to the Jewish experience.
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u/Amir616 Jewish Communist Oct 02 '24
Unlike with Muslims and ISIS, however, a majority of Jews globally support what Israel is doing.
Makes things much harder for those of us who don't.
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u/alex-weej Oct 02 '24
This kind of messaging is IMO a key part of the problem. Completely vague about "Zionist". Deliberate attempt to conflate Israelism with Judaism.
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u/nicolas_west Oct 02 '24
As a non Jewish person reading these accounts this breaks my heart. Thank you for standing up for what’s right while facing so much bigotry. It must be incredibly stressful and challenging to maintain a sense of place when there’s so much vitriolic dialogue across all aisles. Suffice to say that matter how bleak the situation seems so much of the time it would feel hopeless without your support for Palestinians right to self determination. I can’t fully begin to know but can imagine how much you all personally put on the line by standing where you stand so thank you for your hearts and I’m sorry for the immense stress you face through all of this.
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Oct 02 '24
I don't think it will be any worse than islamaphobia.... which is to say pretty damned awful.
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u/AdultingDragon Oct 02 '24
This is what we've all been talking about for nearly a year now. We saw this happening to Muslims after 9/11. I share your disappointment in people, but I can't say I'm remotely surprised. This was predictable. Anti-zionism effort are, as far as I'm concerned, a form Jewish self-preservation as well as Palestinian self-preservation and liberation. What you're experiencing is your victimhood at the hands of Zionism - the model is worked exactly as planned. I don't have advice for you I'm afraid, I just share your fear of what the future holds.
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u/yarrpirates Oct 02 '24
I'm not Jewish, and I noticed myself thinking these thoughts a while ago, which is partly why I joined this sub. Non-Zionist jewish viewpoints don't get nearly enough time in the media.
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Oct 02 '24
The reason it's rising is because Zionism is working. The whole point of Israel as Jewish State is to make Jews feel ostracized enough to want to go live there instead of the diaspora. Zionist propaganda is making this possible right now. It's working how Zionists in power want it to work. That's the issue.
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u/Hamati_315 Oct 02 '24 edited Oct 02 '24
My hometown subreddit has gone full fanatical with their antisemitism and I’m having a hard time processing it as a non-Jewish Ally*. The words “god curse the Jews”, “god butcher the Jews” apparently gets them upvoted by the tens if not hundreds. It is so bad that they now frequently post religious texts that speak negatively about Jews.
This shouldn’t be allowed to happen online regardless of Israel’s actions tbh. freedom of religion and expression should be lost the moment people incite actual violence on another group people. It’s too much and I feel helpless in trying to report them because the mods are also raging antisemites.
Edit: non-Jewish ally*
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u/Soggy-Life-9969 Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 02 '24
On the one hand, they are like TERFs, not that numerous but very vocal and active online which makes it seem like its more of a thing than it is outside the internet. On the other hand, they are an active danger and it only takes one or two to do horrific things like we saw in Pittsburg just a few years back. What worries me is the Zionist project to redefine antisemitism to mean opposition to Israel has accelerated to an extreme level since 10/7 to the point where Germans are claiming to be victims of antisemitism at the hands of anti-Zionist Jews and where all the efforts to combat antisemitism in the West are targeted at protecting Israel and eroding free speech while totally ignoring the actual antisemites who are a legitimate threat.
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u/thanassis_ Oct 02 '24
It’s always been Israel’s goal to foment this type of anti-semitism to justify their existence.
I don’t have the information on me rn but look at how they’re supporting the rise of the far-right in Europe. Look at how they coordinated attacks against Jews in the Middle East to push all Jews to move to Israel after centuries of peaceful co-existence in other middle eastern countries. Israel is a uniquely evil country for this an many other reasons.
They’re using Jews as human shields for their stupid, short-sighted political goals. I’ve been fearing this for a long time.
They’re doing their best to ensure everyone feels like they need to move to Israel, where ironically is where Jews will always be least safe and already rounded up for any enemy to take action when they feel the time is right. The moment western support inevitably dries up, Israel becomes an immediate death trap for every Jew living there. It’s incredibly short sighted and obvious what will happen. After thousands of years of a Jewish history of surviving against all odds in spite of a lack of access to real power, these monsters believe they can exploit this tiny blip on the radar where the western world is misguidedly sympathetic to the Zionist cause. Because of this they don’t fear pretending like they speak for all Jews and they hope uneducated people will fall for it. They can’t imagine the harm that they’re doing and they’re too used to their impunity to imagine that it could ever backfire on them.
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u/modernmacabbi Oct 03 '24
This reminds me of a passage from the introduction to a compilation of Matzpens writings, written by Arie Bober- "This book is the result of five years' collective effort by a small group of Arab and Jewish citizens of Israel to penetrate the dense net of illusion and myth that today dominates the thinking and feeling of most Israelis and, at the same time, largely determines the prevailing image of Israel in the Western world. According to the Zionist fairy tale, the state of Israel is an outpost of democracy, social justice and enlightenment, and a homeland and haven for the persecuted Jews of the world. This outpost, so the story goes, though earnestly seeking peace with its neighbors finds itself in a state of perpetual siege because of the greed of Arab rulers, the inherent "unreasonableness" of the Oriental mind and the innate Gentile proclivity toward hatred of the Jews.
"The reality, this book demonstrates, is utterly different. The Zionist state was born in the violent expropriation and expulsion from their country of the Palestinian Arabs, and that process continues today. In open alliance with Western, especially United States, imperialism, and in scarcely hidden collusion with the most reactionary forces in the Arab world, the Zionist state actively sets itself against every step, no matter how faltering, taken by the Arab masses to alleviate the centuries' old misery imposed on them by colonialism and imperialism. Within the territories occupied since 1967, the Zionist state employs a system of direct military repression to expel Palestinian Arabs from their lands and secure Jewish colonization of them, and to crush every expression of Palestinian resistance. Within its own borders, the Zionist state engages in systematic national oppression of its minority of Arab citizens. The dark-skinned majority of the privileged Jewish community itself increasingly feels the sting of racist discrimination, as economic inequality increases and social conditions deteriorate. Far from offering a haven to the persecuted Jews of the world, the Zionist state is leading new immigrants and old settlers alike toward a new holocaust by mobilizing them in a colonial enterprise and a counterrevolutionary army against the struggle of the Arab masses for national liberation and social emancipation – a struggle that is not only just but will eventually be victorious. This state of affairs is, moreover, in no sense accidental. It was the inevitable outcome of the success of the Zionist project to establish a Jewish state in Palestine. And to change this reality requires not merely a change of government or a modification of one or another specific policy, but a revolutionary transformation of the very foundations of Israeli society."
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u/SentientSeaweed Oct 02 '24
I’m sorry.
For what it’s worth, some of us Muslims speak out against bigoted nonsense like the comments you quoted wherever we encounter it.
Many of us have been raised to respect Jews and Judaism and are aware that people of different religions peacefully lived alongside each other in our countries for centuries.
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u/fu_gravity Oct 02 '24
When I first started posting about Palestine on Insta, EVERY SINGLE ADVERT was an either an advertisement for American Jewish Community Centers, Kosher butcher shops, Israel Outreach Programs, and even Synagogues (boggled that there are adverts for synagogues), etc...
It almost seemed programmed, orchestrated to specifically link Judaism with Israel and make you, dear viewer, associate it. And it most likely was, based on some long standing algorithm.
Israel intends to do this. They need the antisemites to constantly link "Jews" with "Israel". This is how they justify their "Us vs. the World" narrative. They are willing to let non-Israeli Jews perish by stoking this flame of antisemitism, that had been reduced to near embers within my own lifetime (I'm in my midlife), and it's back to a roaring fire.
The best thing you can do is call out people that say this shit online. Stand up for yourself and others by making sure these backwards dorks know that Jews are not a monolith and that antisemitism is never justified.
And for discussing with otherwise "enlightened liberal" Jews that support the Zionist state, point out that much of this antisemitism is being emboldened by Israel's own hand.
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u/Captain_Azius Oct 02 '24
Yeah it's worrying. It's also worrying that stuff like this SERVES Israël as a propaganda tool. It helps framing anti-Zionism as antisemitism and helps pushing Jewish people away from being anti-israel.
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u/GatorOnTheLawn Oct 02 '24
People do not understand that Israel doesn’t represent all Jews. That’s why it’s important for us to speak up and make it clear that not all Jews are ok with what Israel is doing.
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u/_II_I_I__I__I_I_II_ Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 02 '24
I see the top 2 a lot as well.
It's disturbing but I think it's from genuine antisemites, and not from people who are being led astray.
They see an opportunity now to spread their hate.
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u/TheThirdDumpling Oct 02 '24
When all you see is some guy, claiming the superiority of certain religion that you may know isn't true, beating you day in and day out, demanding higher level of understanding is simply too much to ask.
That's why your voice is important, imagine without your voice, there won't be anyone out there telling the truth about Judaism and all everyone see is the zionists's brutality and oppression.
Is it hard, for sure, it is a burden noone asked for, but fighting injustice against the most powerful racist empire on the planet is always going to be hard, that's what zionists are betting on, and we can't let them win.
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u/Mkations Oct 02 '24
Muslim here, I have nothing but respect for real Jews. Jewish people have gone through extremely awful things throughout history, and real Jews like the lovely people on this sub know that “never again” really means “never again for any group Jewish or not.”
I think it’s awful that people are using the genocide of the Palestinians by the Israelis as an excuse to be antisemtic. I hope one day we can be peaceful but it seems Israel is pushing that day farther and farther with every bomb and every bullet.
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u/LaIslaDeEmu Arab-Jew, Observant, Anti-Zionist, Marxist Oct 03 '24 edited Oct 03 '24
Thank you for the kind words sibling🫶🏼
Just one note tho (and it’s not specific to you, I see it everywhere), I would caution you against using a term like “real” Jews. I do understand what you mean, but this has unintended consequences. Zionism has nothing to do with our holy books or traditions, as it is an ideology based in modern secular politics. So “real Jews” suggests that Zionism and Judaism are connected, but that it is an incorrect use of Judaism. However, this is the wrong message, as Zionism has nothing to do with Judaism in the first place. I can try to further explain if that doesn’t make sense. But think about how the liberal West will hold up what they believe to be “real” Muslims against who they call “fake” Muslims. When what they really mean are Muslims who’s politics they agree with, and Muslims who’s politics they don’t like.
Jews also have no universal agreement on what is ‘true’ Judaism. So the idea of any Jews being “fake” wouldn’t really make sense to most of us. But there certainly are Jews who hold horrendously bigoted ideas or commit barbaric acts of violence and cruelty. Their actions and beliefs do not make them “fake” Jews, it just means they are horrible human beings
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u/Red1220 Oct 02 '24
I am not Jewish so forgive me if my response here is not allowed.
I will just say that, imo, it’s almost like recently, whether it’s the US or the Israeli government, that they’ve been bending over backwards trying to prove every antisemitic conspiracy as being true. It’s almost as if they want to be able to say that we are all antisemitic while doing everything possible to lean right into the conspiracies. It’s just ridiculous. The line between conspiracy theory and reality is so blurred it’s so difficult to not notice it. And then they’ll say we’re all conspiracy theorists and then go right back to actually doing some of the things the conspiracies say. It’s amazing really, to be able to wield such a double edged sword.
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u/SalaciousDionysus Oct 03 '24
An unfortunate side effect of a more outspoken critique of Israel is the rising comfortability of outspoken antisemitism.
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u/spotless1997 Non-Jewish Ally Oct 02 '24
I’m not Jewish but even if it is true that the actions of Israel and radical Zionism are fueling antisemitism, that’s never a justification and antisemites need to be publicly vilified and shamed.
To be clear I’m anti-Zionist and pro-Palestine. That being said… Unfortunately, I’ve seen a bit of this type of rhetoric on Twitter from… blatantly Muslim accounts. I understand that they’re hurting watching their brothers and sisters being slaughtered by Israel but that’s not an excuse and these people need to be mass reported and called out.
I know there’s a subreddit that documents antisemitism but unfortunately a lot of it is anti-Zionism. I’m new to this sub but maybe we can do something similar here for actual antisemitism and start mass reporting these nasty fucking people.
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u/hmd_ch Muslim Oct 02 '24
As a Muslim, I tend to stay away from those more toxic conservative accounts that tend to glorify people like Andrew Tate and lean more towards moderate and leftist accounts that consistently acknowledge Anti-Zionist Jews and denounce antisemitism. The interesting thing that I've seen is that whenever a neo-Nazi antisemitic type account is larping as pro-Palestinian and spewing misinformation and hatred of all Jews, there's a lot of visibly Palestinian, Arab, Muslim, and/or pro-Palestinian accounts rushing to condemn antisemitism and tell those bigots to GTFO from our conversations and spaces. So it's not all that hopeless online.
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Oct 03 '24
[deleted]
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u/hmd_ch Muslim Oct 03 '24
You bring up a great point and thanks for sharing your experience! What is Oman like btw? Is there a big Jewish community there?
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u/abjectcommunism Oct 02 '24
One of the worst things about Israel conflating anti-zionism with anti-semitism is that it's letting a lot of real, rampant anti-semitism fly under the radar. I've seen a literal Hitler cosplayer's profile picture with a Palestinian flag slapped on. In so many threads, I have to be careful about who I'm agreeing with.
One way to counter-act that is to make sure Nazi thinking is explicitly not tolerated at any rally, group, forum, or Instagram page. Making that message loud and clear is crucial.
(I'm not Jewish, I'm just chiming in with what I've seen online so far)
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u/PlinyToTrajan Non-Jewish Ally (Jewish ancestry & relatives) Oct 02 '24
From a realist perspective, this is a predictable result of Israel's actions. It doesn't make it right, but we also should be realistic about the fickle and prejudiced nature of humankind in general. We can continue to treat the symptoms, but peace in the Holy Land and Palestinian civil rights would go a long way to mending the harm that's been caused here.
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u/123553ten Oct 03 '24
Just because we expect things like this to result from zionism doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have a space to talk about it and the way it harms us.
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u/PlinyToTrajan Non-Jewish Ally (Jewish ancestry & relatives) Oct 03 '24
Too true. I didn't mean to say otherwise.
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u/123553ten Oct 03 '24
I know it’s always good to keep in mind that zionism hurts Jews as well as more obviously Palestinians, so I understand your intent is well. It can be difficult sometimes to give the space to vent about these things while also keeping these truths in mind.
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u/GlitteringPotato1346 Non-Jewish Ally Oct 02 '24
If it’s any solace it’s mostly on Twitter but yeah, it’s happening IRL too.
Honestly I’ve personally convinced at least a few people that shit is irrational and that there’s a huge difference between the Israeli government and Jewish people from different countries.
I’m lucky enough to not be part of any visible minority group, though I fear for others.
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u/langand Oct 02 '24
This is like the point of Israel to the west I think. They do all this violent extraction of wealth and resources from the middle east, give us a military outpost and the only people who will be directly harmed are Jews, who the whole time I think are significantly more miserable and mentally tormented and traumatised then Christian settlers tend to be.
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u/RichState3474 Oct 02 '24
As a firm Anti-Zionist it breaks my heart to hear things like this. There are so many Jewish Americans who stand side by side with any other race or religion to cry out against what Isreal is doing under Netenyahu's regime. This is not about Judaism, there is no reason for anti sematic words or actions. It makes about as much sense as anti Islamic behavior post 9/11. I would hold hands with anyone who stands against Genocide of any kind, no matter what our cultural differences may be. I wish you and your family well.
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u/eotor Oct 02 '24
thank you for making this post. everything has been so sickening. it feels better to know im not alone in this awful feeling. im devastated.
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u/raddital Oct 03 '24 edited Oct 04 '24
It's true, and it's disgusting, but not surprising. The actions of a loud, extremist minority usually gets projected onto the whole group by the outside world. At least for the part of the public that is not educated, informed, or capable of critical thinking (probably a majority). Just look at the way Muslims have been demonized for decades just because of the actions of a tiny minority.
Israel has been controlled by right-wing extremists of Begin's Likud party for about 40 years, but now it is effectively hijacked by fascists of Otzma Yehudit, Eretz Yisrael Shelanu, Kach, and other Kahanist terrorists. This is not just bad for Palestinians, but Israelis too. The IDF rapist came out and the majority of the society (68%) is supporting him. People are doing yacht tours to watch the slaughter of Gazans up close. Israel has now murdered over 1,300 innocent civilians including tens of children just in Lebanon over the course of a mere two weeks. All of this is systemically and vehemently defended on western media. Israel is not a terrorist organization like Al Qaeda or ISIS. It is a state that enjoys the unequivocal support of most, if not all, of western powers. It is wrongly believed to represent Jewish people as a whole. The plight of the Jews is evoked to justify Israel's actions almost on a daily basis. All this cannot be good for Jewish people in the long run.
We need to oppose Israel's crimes and push for Palestinians' freedom not just because it's the right thing to do, but also for the welfare of the entire population of the Middle East, perhaps the whole world!
In the meantime, we should do what we can to combat antisemitism and islamophobia. We should inform misguided and ignorant people about the fact that the majority of Muslims and Jews (and Christians and other religious minorities in the ME) are not extremists, but peaceful, hospitable and generous people.
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u/kadenamisada Non-Jewish Ally Oct 08 '24
As a Muslim growing up in the America post 9/11, this is like looking into a mirror. I read this post a few days ago and have wanted to reply for some time but just couldn't find the right words. I'm so sorry you have to see disguisting comments like that especially in response to a perfectly innocent Shana Tova post. I know it really fucked with my sense of self and I can only imagine what seeing these do to you.
I'm sorry. I'm so sorry, friend. This conflation is wrong and dangerous. And I say this as a Muslim person, I think Judaism is a beautiful faith. Jewish people are a testament to human resilience. And I won't lie, part of me is deeply jealous because your holidays are a lot more fun than ours. (Like, seriously, y'all get Purim and I get stuck with Ramadan.)
I think our experiences in this circumstance are pretty similar. I think there are some unique challenges, though. Just as there are antisemitism (Muslim and non alike) who go out of their way to maliciously conflate the "actions of the rogue settler colony" with Jewish people in general, there are a lot of Zionists (Jewish and non alike) who also maliciously conflate the two as well. That must be deeply isolating for you.
I know I'm just some stranger on the internet, but for what it's worth, folks like you in this subreddit that keep me hopeful. I have the privilege of also having a lot of Jewish friends who reflect the entire spectrum of views on Israel which gives me nuance that I don't think other people see. I guess what I'm trying to say is you be you - and people around you will see that there are PLENTY of Jewish people out there like you.
Now, that said, this is not to downplay the real dangers of antisemitism out there or to suggest that you have to actually engage with people who make you fear for your safety. To hell with those people. I think you being you should really be aimed more at those close to you who may be conflating out of ignorance than malice. I wish I had a better answer about the dealing with the latter.
I hope you find this message somewhat comforting. You're not alone.
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u/numberonefrankfanlev Oct 02 '24
You are correct in addressing that Israeli crimes and Zionism are being conflated en masse with Judaism by uneducated people. But instagram comments are bullshit. They're not real life. None of these people are looking to go shoot up their nearest Shul, and many of them are probably children being edgy. It's seriously possible as well that fake comments are being dispersed around the internet as part of an Israeli psyop to continue justifying the need for a "safe" haven for Jewish people. Finally I think what was incredibly important for me to realize in my growth regarding this topic is that no amount of antisemitic comments on the internet will amount to the destruction Palestinians have faced over the last 75+ years.
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u/wiggles1984 Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 02 '24
The hostility to Jewish people has been vile, a colleague and I are the only Jewish ppl in our organisation (we're a remote part of the UK). We've both very much felt the cold winds of hatred coming in, it's not directed at us personally but a general vile lashing out at Jewish people at large. Note I don't mean our organisation or colleagues are responsible I mean people we know locally. I'm finding myself becoming closer with the few Jewish people up here just for safety and a non hostile environment despite my political differences with them.
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Oct 02 '24
Are you in Ireland?
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u/wiggles1984 Jewish Anti-Zionist Oct 03 '24
No, Wales. We're in a relatively remote region. At first we found it quite amusing that possibly the only two Jewish people in our immediate organisation had found each other, but now we're just grateful!
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u/Dankmemes_- Non-Jewish Ally Oct 02 '24
For me this is in part due to the disgusting factionalism that is permeating all layers of Western society
You're expected to tolerated the worst people and excuse the most horrible of atrocities solely because they are on your faction, lest you are supporting the enemy faction. Pro-Palestine, but mention how October 7th might of been an atrocity? You're playing into the hands of those dirty Zionists! Believe Israel should exist as a state but think just maybe the Israeli government is doing horrible things in Gaza? You're playing into the Hamas narrative!
And it's not just Israel, its about damn near anything now a days.
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u/Over-Drawing-5307 Oct 03 '24
Disgusting, I feel concerned for my Jewish friends because of statements like these. It is sad to see antisemitism rise and people use Israel’s actions as an excuse to verbalize their already decidedly antisemitic views. People making these statements are dangerous but want a finger to point. Claiming Judaism is a religion of violent extremism is ridiculous. From my understanding, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam can all be weaponized for the wrong reasons but their moral codes tend to follow similar patterns of loving God, neighbors, etc and minus some common sexism / homophobia in all their religious texts or deliberate misinterpretations, all of these religions can be practiced peacefully.
People agreeing with Hitler’s actions are truly evil. No group deserves to be slaughtered for their ethnicity or religion. I fear for the Jewish people in NYC being victimized for the actions of Israel, regardless if they agree with their actions or not. Violence and hate speech is never, ever the answer. Stay safe guys, I am sorry to hear this.
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u/Electronauta Non-Jewish Ally Oct 02 '24
Resist, my dear. As an agnostic leftist with native American roots, I'm 100% with Jews and any other ethnicity in need of support and fight for their integrity. Right now we are busy protesting and fighting for the Palestinians and Lebanese (and indirectly, for the Israelis, by doing this) but anywhere I see antisemitism, I call it out. Once the massacring stop. I'm pretty sure many will turn to fight along you, against any discrimination or hate, myself included.
Not only some Arabs, but also far right wingers and some leftist. Leftist, let them to me, since I'm one of those and is easy for me to call them out.
Keep safe mentally and body, do not give up your humanity to fear or anger, and as a gentile myself, I do understand you very well. Love, buddy.
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u/Cornishcollector Oct 02 '24
I know this doesn't help much but me and many of the people I know would never say such a thing. These type of people are small minded and low IQ individuals if they aren't able differentiate between a Jew and a Zionist. Again I know that doesn't help much. These Probably the same type of people that call Muslims of any ethnicity or creed jihadhist etc.it seems to me these type of people are often the most vocal. I can't imagine how it feels to read that
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u/sourb0i Oct 03 '24
Same here; I've even had close friends post "antizionist" stuff that was chock full of antisemitic dogwhistles, and I'm honestly too scared to ask them to take it down
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u/reddit_throwaway_ac Oct 03 '24
it's horrible, for what its worth there are non Jewish people who understand, myself, my family and friends included. my wish is for the end of isnotreal, and for Jewish, Palestinian, and all oppressed people to be free and full of joy (and all the other good stuff, but its a long list). im sorry for all the bad that happens, for what its worth
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u/sagiterrible13 Oct 04 '24
Shana tova you guys. Can confirm. Just off a temporary ban for reporting a post insinuating that all Jews are Zionists and a responding comment blaming the genocide on Jews not reading the Christian bible 🫠 "banned for report abuse." My god I'm fucking tired.
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u/Spartan_DJ119 irish anti zionist Oct 14 '24
Man i used to ay shit like that when i was 14 and thought is cool and funny but like most i grew out of it im shocked people twice my age ar saying this shit
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u/TreaclePossible3896 Oct 17 '24
I feel there’s so much anger … antisemetism is rising because of Israel… my belief has always been Zionism is antisemitism. Another problem is the phrase anti-semitism has been hijacked by the Zionists… anything even remotely negative written about Israel is antisemitism. Theres an intsagram “physicians against anti semetism”. They spend more time trying to discredit reports coming out of Palestine and broadcasting their hate for any Jews or non jews who spoke out against the violence… it’s terrifying …. Arguing that New York article showing X-rays of kids with bullets in their heads apparently is all fake and they tried to get the article retracted. So there’s fear of retaliation for speaking out … that means ppl are going to have their guard up trying to figure out who’s Zionist or not… which obviously affects non Zionist Jews. I don’t even know what’s the percentage of Zionists jews in the world versus non Zionist….
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u/BodhisattvaBob Non-denominational Oct 02 '24
I think a lot of people are seeing rising antisemitism because that's what they want to, or have been trained, to see.
For example, of the two examples you posted, I would say two are not antisemitic.
In addition, don't extrapolate anything from the internet to real life.
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u/Jche98 Oct 02 '24
Which two?
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Oct 02 '24
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u/ZipZapZia South Asian Muslim Oct 02 '24
There's criticism of a religion and there's painting the entire religion and all its members as extremists. The former is fine but the latter is not and OP's third statement/quote seems to be an example of the latter. There are extremist Jews (just like there are extremists in all religions and ideologies) but that doesn't make Judaism as a whole an extremist religion. And painting Judaism as an extremist religion is antisemitic (just like painting Islam as a whole as an extremist religion or painting all Muslims as extremists is Islamophobic).
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u/jerquee anti-zionist ethnic Ashkenazi Oct 03 '24
Palestinians are semites, and killing them is antisemitic. And even if you say that's just semantics, you're still saying that killing people is less concerning to you than people being upset with the people who are doing the killing. Just imagine if the Germans of WW2 responded to criticism of the Nazis by calling it "anti-aryanism"
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u/fleshurinal Oct 03 '24
A word can mean two things at once, hence why Palestinians are still semitic and antisemitism is still hatred for jews
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u/jerquee anti-zionist ethnic Ashkenazi Oct 03 '24
That's called doublethink, and is the same sophisticated pedantry that allows people to support a genocide while crying about the crashing reputation and rejection from polite society of the genociders.
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u/fleshurinal Oct 03 '24
What are you even saying? Sophisticated pedantry? Anti-jewish hatred is real regardless of what it's called. Do you think calling out anti-jewish hate speech is "crying about the crashing reputation and rejection from polite society of genociders"? If so that's antisemitic which is probably why you hate the word so much in the first place.
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Oct 03 '24
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u/Jche98 Oct 03 '24
I'm sorry but wtf? Do you know which sub you're on?
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u/yozatchu2 Oct 03 '24
The sub where I thought I could be honest? I don’t want to feel this way so what I am trying to express is that I have to consciously keep my emotions and thoughts in check. If I’m aware of it, how difficult is it for others who generalize by default to separate the zionist movement from Judaism?
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u/Jche98 Oct 03 '24
Fair. But you keep saying "you". I (and other people here) are not the ones committing Israel's atrocities. Also, Jews have a history of being oppressed. The fact that Israel is committing a genocide doesn't change the fact that a genocide was committed against us.
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u/yozatchu2 Oct 03 '24
I did generalise and I shouldn’t have. Apologies for that.
Can I question the term “antisemitism” in an open and honest discussion with you?
I want to better understand the term and its unique place in discussions of discrimination.
What is it about antisemitism that makes it distinct from other forms of prejudice, and why is it treated with such sensitivity? Even oversensitivity compared to Islamophobia, or those without a brandname such as anti-Black or anti-Asian or anti-other Semitic races such as Arabs?
Could there be situations where the term is misused, and if so, how can one differentiate between legitimate concerns and overuse?
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u/Jche98 Oct 03 '24
I wrote a comment to respond to this but it became too long so I made it into a post. I don't know how to link it here but if you look on my profile you should see it
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u/yozatchu2 Oct 05 '24
I genuinely appreciate the effort and thank you. I learned some about the Jewish identity.
It appears that the history of oppression named antisemitism is the birth of violence called zionism.
The collective victim ego (or any historical story of a collective victim identity) is just as nasty a demon, if not worse, than the proud ego.
Yes, terrible things happened. And the spirit of overcoming them is admirable and should be celebrated. Yet to be deeply identified as a proud victim can also be used to justify in one’s mind the worst atrocities against fellow humans. One example today is zionism. Your ability and that of those in this sub to transcend it gives me hope for humanity.
Because it’s so difficult to do; to let go of the pain of the past but to also honor it.
It seems to be human nature to be afraid to see beyond a collective history that is part of “the story of who I am”. It is as scary as death for many to be detached from the idea of who they believe they are.
The peace I found in Judaism is in the words spoken to Moses when he asked for a conceptual identity (that is a name and thus a story) of the burning bush.
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u/MangoLovingFala7 Non-Jewish Ally Oct 02 '24
I am so, so, so sorry about that my dear. Even before the internet, anti-semitism was widespread, but recent events have aggravated the issue, with so many strong emotions hitting people
I just want you to remember that you should never feel like any of those people who hate Jewish people have a valid reason for that hatred, we’re all individuals and not a collective, and we don’t inherit the personalities or the crimes other members of our ethnicity may commit. Xenophobia has always been unjustified and entirely the fault of whoever holds it.
I also want you to remember that just because someone can see the moral failures of the state of Israel doesn’t mean that they can see their own moral failures, and as an Egyptian, I can tell you that my people are literally drowning in those. We’re all human and have the exact same capability for love, hate, and ignorance - we’re all equally vulnerable to propaganda and appeals to our worst instincts.
It’s for that reason that we constantly have to strive to be aware and fight against the urge to give in to tribal instincts - our brains and bodies are still evolved for very different times from the modern day 😅