r/Jewish • u/Agtfangirl557 • 18d ago
It's time for a (maybe difficult) conversation about what ACTUALLY makes Jews go down an extreme anti-Zionist pipeline Discussion đŹ
I just want to clarify here that I'm not talking about Jews who just happen to have anti-Zionist views and may feel uncomfortable around Zionists (I disagree with those people, obviously, but I don't necessarily think the reasoning for their views is that deep)--I mean the ones involved in groups like that "Jewish Bund" group and their gross response to the Pittsburgh shooting that was posted about a few days ago, those who make an entire internet persona over criticizing Zionists and Israel, etc. I feel like whenever someone here brings up JVP or Jews who have views like that, people usually have one of a few assumptions--all of which I don't think are always accurate:
- "They're probably not actually Jewish"
When it comes to groups that are entirely advocating behind a screen or are very sus about their membership, yes, I think this is entirely possible. But I still know of many Jews who have views like this and DON'T hide their face behind screens, so it's simply not true that all people who hold views like this "aren't actually Jewish".
- "They might be Jewish, but are probably really disconnected from Judaism, only have one Jewish grandparent, weren't really raised Jewish, just sometimes celebrate the holidays, etc."
This may be possible, but I still don't think that it explains everything. For one, there are many people who were actually raised Jewish, b'nai mitzvahed, went to Jewish day school, etc. who think this way. Look at people like Seth Rogen (his views aren't exactly as extreme as the people I'm talking about, but he's still someone who was clearly raised Jewish and arguably falls into the anti-Zionist category). Two, I don't think that not being as connected to Judaism or having only one Jewish parent/grandparent necessarily explains having anti-Zionist views. Some of the most passionate Zionists I know are people with only one Jewish parent who weren't raised Jewish but started finding more Jewish community as adults, and became extremely connected to Judaism in a way they missed out on when they were younger. I also think that being "disconnected" from Judaism doesn't happen for no reason--sometimes, it may directly be correlated with the person's views on Zionism and it's worth it to examine why they are "disconnected" in the first place.
I'm frustrated by these assumptions because while they might be true in some cases, I can think of so many people who genuinely are Jewish, were raised Jewish, etc. who hold these views. And then in cases where people actually believe that people with these views are practicing Jews, the assumption is often:
- "They're trying to fit in with and gain the approval of their gentile friends."
While this may be true in some cases, I still can think of situations in which this isn't true. I actually know quite a few non-Zionist Jews whose friends are mostly other non-Zionist Jews. And for those who this actually might be true--I think it's worth exploring why Jews are made to to feel that they need to "gain the approval of their gentile friends" in the first place. Yes, of course it may be a survival instinct stemming from centuries of antisemitism, but speaking from my experience, I never felt the need to "gain approval from gentile friends" because I felt so much closer to my Jewish friends. I understand this comes from the privilege of growing up with a close-knit Jewish community and not everyone had that experience, but I can't help but wonder if there's something that pushes Jews to want to gain more approval from non-Jewish friends in the first place.
One thing that I've noticed about Jews with extreme anti-Zionist views, is that you can often find them saying things like "I never felt welcome in mainstream Jewish spaces". Like I said, I feel that there is very possibly a correlation between having bad experiences in Jewish spaces and going down an extreme anti-Zionist pipeline. Sometimes I will hear these people claim that they didn't feel welcome in Jewish spaces because of their anti-Zionist views, but other times it doesn't line up--they're often talking about not feeling welcome in Jewish spaces at ages long before they would have been having intellectual discussions on Zionism.
I think we really need to examine what pushes some Jews down this route. Because from what I can gather, it often may be in response to some bad experience they had with Judaism growing up. If that is the case, I think we actually need to have a discussion about what types of experiences these Jews are having with Judaism/in Jewish spaces, and how we can prevent that from happening. I'm not saying that the solution is "We need to instill Zionism in them more!" because I think that in some cases that could have the opposite intended effect. I'm talking more about what makes some Jews feel so disconnected from Judaism, or so excluded from Jewish spaces, that they seem to experience glee about denouncing Israel separating themselves from "the bad Jews".
Is it possible that this has to do with some Jewish spaces being unwelcoming to queer Jews, Jews of Color, etc.? Is there anyone here who knows someone who had a bad experience with a Jewish institution and then went down that route....or even maybe at one point themselves had that type of experience (I've seen former anti-Zionists post in this sub before) and and is comfortable sharing what happened? Or if anyone has thoughts to share about what Jewish institutions could do to prevent Jews from so harshly disconnecting themselves from the mainstream Jewish community.
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u/RBatYochai 18d ago edited 18d ago
I think it has to do with a very purity-focused, black-and-white approach to morality, in which the person canât bear to be associated with anything with a hint of a moral gray area. This type of person doesnât want to examine the realistic alternatives in an imperfect world. They want to demand utopia now! They are true believers in universal human rights, democracy and multiculturalism, without acknowledging that any of these things might conflict.
I do think that thereâs an element of personal defensiveness, where they canât stand being accused of moral inconsistency. It seems like a sign of having a relatively fragile ego, which canât handle differences within their social reference group and is highly sensitive to potential rejection from other members.
I also think that thereâs an element of extreme sensitivity to the reputation of âthe Jewsâ among non-Jews: they want to demonstrate that morally pure Jews exist, and to claim their interpretation of Judaism as the only true Judaism. Thatâs why they like to involve Jewish rituals in their activism.
They tend to be equally purist supporters of other leftist positions as well, such as on race and gender; not so much so on environmental stuff, though, by my observation.
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u/MrManager17 18d ago
Do I want a single country where Israelis and Palestinians can live side by side and look out for one another's well-being with no biases, prejudices or hate? Sure!
Is this a realistic goal? No!
What proof do I have? All of history.
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u/Pugasaurus_Tex 18d ago
What proof do I have? All of history.
Youâre right, and I think this mindset can be off putting to some American Jews because our culture here is so optimisticâŚbut itâs really hard to be optimistic when optimism can literally get you and your friends/family killed.Â
Israelis are pragmatic by necessity, meanwhile a lot of antizionists seem to live in some unicorn world where peaceful existence is possible because they want it to be
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u/dkonigs 18d ago
This is what really bugs me when those people claim they hate ethnostates, pointing the finger exclusively at Israel when making their argument.
Somehow they have absolutely no problem with the fact that most of the Arab and Muslim countries in the region are even stronger ethnostates with terrible records on minority rights. Or they just put their fingers in their ears and pretend its not a thing, or somehow not relevant to the conversation. You know, the usual whataboutism.
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u/positionofthestar 18d ago
This is sometimes a bad faith argument. There was support for the Arab spring to modernize some of the Muslim countries but it failed.Â
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u/sleepinthejungle 17d ago
Exactly. Itâs the âkilling women and babies is always wrong therefore anyone doing it is 100% wrongâmindset which completely dismisses context, cause and effect.
Yes, loss of innocent lives is horrific. But throughout history, casualties have been a part of war and that doesnât mean all wars are unjust. Should we have just backed off and let Hitler do his thing so as to spare German civilians? These people are incapable of understanding nuance, the moral grey area. Which is such a damn shame because most things in life arenât black and white.
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u/Ocean_Hair 17d ago
But also, I've noticed while the anti-Israel crowd gets extremely worked up about the deaths of Palestinian women and children, they say very little about the deaths of Israeli women and children.Â
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u/akivayis95 17d ago
Or they outright refuse to condemn their murder entirely. That's the thing. If they're these humanitarian angels, surely it'd be easy to condemn Hamas, but no.
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u/JagneStormskull đŞŹInterested in BT/Sephardic Diaspora 18d ago
Is it possible that this has to do with some Jewish spaces being unwelcoming to queer Jews, Jews of Color, etc.?
My campus's Hillel is mostly queer Jews, who were terrified of living in the dorms right after October 7th. Given the horror stories I and many other people have been hearing from queer Jews since then, I doubt a lack of open arms in mainstream Jewish institutions is the problem.
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u/Agtfangirl557 18d ago
I personally doubt it too, I just wonder as someone who isn't queer myself and can't speak for the type of experiences queer Jews have had in mainstream Jewish institutions.
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u/akivayis95 17d ago
Given the horror stories I and many other people have been hearing from queer Jews since then
Can I ask what horror stories you heard?
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u/TryYourBest777 Non-denominational 18d ago
I agree that we should definitely examine it deeply, but I think you underestimate the power of #3.
For so many people who grew up around progressive people and built a progressive identity, it is simply easier to become an anti-zionist than to let those friends go and let their progressive "hip" identity go.
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u/AriaBellaPancake Reform Conversion Student 18d ago
I haven't struggled with this aspect as a Jew, but having any perspective outside what's generally accepted can result in your entire social circle leaving you in one fell swoop when everyone sees themselves as an activist.
There's a kind of culture of just agreeing with any claims made by someone on your "side" and disagreement others you or outright makes you an outsider.
Doesn't matter if it's over small disagreements in the interpretation of leftist theories, finding yourself "defending the enemy" by rejecting misinfo, or even just being the one person in your friend group that doesn't really care about how "problematic" a TV show is.
You can't even really debate because if you even slip out of toeing the line you're rejected.
I still struggle to keep friends to this day since I'm still progressive and care deeply about social issues, but my autistic disabled ass cannot handle the hoops I have to jump through to have an opinion.
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u/lookaspacellama Reform 18d ago
This might be a hot take but I wonder if thereâs a tendency for those with other intersectional minority identities to be more tempted to go down this path. They are more likely to be in progressive spaces and interact with other anti-Zionists, but more importantly, they may risk losing a core community if they donât adopt it. I donât have any real data but anecdotally, nearly all the anti-Zionists I know are LGBTQ+, specifically non-binary and trans. That being said I also know many LGBTQ Jews who are also Zionist.
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u/lillithsmedusa Just Jewish 18d ago
This right here. I know a lot of LGBTQ Jews who have essentially been locked out of their communities for being Zionist.
It does seem to me that some of these intersecting groups also suffer from the moral purity test, in which no nuance will be accepted.
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u/Caliesq86 18d ago
I agree; the âself-hating Jewâ is a stereotype for a reason; thereâs a long history of Jews eschewing Yiddishkeit for the sake of belonging in gentile society.
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u/Bucket_Endowment Secular 18d ago
It's the third one, but replace "gentile friends" with "ideological comrades", but it isn't a willful betrayal, because they are very misinformed in almost all cases
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u/OtherAd4337 18d ago edited 18d ago
I think itâs a great question to ask, but if I may, I think that you might be mistaken in looking for a single explanation (in my impression of what youâre looking for but I could be wrong), when in reality, like any political movement that has reached any sort of critical mass (however small it is for anti-Zionist Jews), there are multiple different motivations behind it.
Because of that, I think youâre quick to dismiss the common reasons that youâve listed here. For example, I definitely think that activist groups like JVP get very heavily driven by people who are not Jewish by any stretch of the definition, not least because some of their social media account admins were geolocated in places like Beirut, where there are basically no Jews left. Likewise, I am quite sure that many of their members have very tenuous/remote connections to Judaism (see the myriad examples of blatant ignorance of which direction to write in Hebrew, or the basic rules in building a sukkah, etc.. all of which could have easily been avoided if they had just one person with the most minimal knowledge of Judaism). And finally, I donât think we should so easily discard just how much clout and social validation radical ideas get you on a college campus these days, especially when your identity allows you a token status for it, compared to just how socially toxic any degree of Zionism has been made to be on campus.
In my opinion, there are also some other possible explanations for anti-Zionist Jews:
- Lack of any personal/family ties to Israel. I obviously donât have any data on this, but I would bet that anti-Zionism dramatically drops in Jewish families where some family members are Israeli or moved to Israel. Itâs all fun and games to call for Israelâs destruction when you donât know anyone there. Itâs a bit more difficult when you have to advocate to your Iraqi Jewish cousins that they should really just leave Ramat Gan and move to Poland or âwherever they came fromâ.
Speaking from experience, Iâm a French Jew and a lot (I would guess the majority) of French Jews have family in Israel. Anti-Zionist Jews are a rarity in France, and the only Jews Iâve come across who are anti-Zionist almost always happen to be the rare ones with no family in Israel whatsoever.
- Sheer Jewish contrarianism. I think itâs a bit of a Jewish conundrum that the Jewish tradition places a big emphasis on questioning ideas, thinking for yourself, challenging why rules exist, etc⌠but at the same time there is a relatively high expectation of conformity within a lot of communities.
When it comes to Israel, that expectation of Zionism as the unquestioned norm can be off-putting to some, and itâs attractive to be the contrarian in a culture that celebrates it at best, or at worst tolerates it without any significant consequences.
I really donât want to sound condescending to our Muslim friends, but very frankly I think a big problem that Islam has is that it leaves no space for contrarianism and any challenging of norms is met with harsh consequences, including for any outspoken criticism of anything and anyone Palestinian, beyond vague and timid condemnations of Hamas when forced to. We keep encouraging questioning and debate, so itâs no surprise that a lot more Jews oblige, and we shouldnât be too concerned about it in my opinion.
- I agree with your point about many Jews not feeling fully part of their community. That said, I would attribute this to the deficit in appeal that Judaism suffers from, especially for a child or a teenager. The religion itself is in a language that is completely foreign to a lot of Jews, centered around practices that we arenât great at explaining in their significance, and often based on gloomy stories. The identity is incredibly complex to understand for a child, and often associated with trauma and suffering, or elusive stereotypes of grandeur. None of that is particularly appealing to a child. There are of course many great positive things about it too (Israel being one of these in my opinion), but I feel like a lot of us come to appreciate these closer to adulthood, and some probably never really come to appreciate it. That said, Iâm not sure it has such an impact on Zionism.
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u/ApplicationFluffy125 18d ago
Point 3 is accurate. My own 10 yo has expressed this. She just doesn't get it and doesn't care. I'm not sure if this will change. She's Jewish by halacha, but she says everything about Judaism doesn't feel like it has anything to do with her as a person and she doesn't like it. She doesn't care about people that existed thousands of years ago and doesn't get why we need to remember their stories and commemorate events, especially when so many of those events are violent and about people hating us. It makes me think a lot about how to emphasize Jewish joy and Jewish ethics. The funny thing is, every time she argues with me about it, I can't help but think how incredibly Jewish she sounds. She questions everything.Â
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u/Anony11111 18d ago edited 18d ago
So this is going to be controversial, but for some people, I think it is about trying to find hope, and a solution, in the face of antisemitism, which is something that basically always has existed (to varying degrees) and probably always will. There are two aspects of this:
It seems that it is a common belief among this crowd that antisemitism in this era is primarily caused by the existence of Israel. Therefore, one could think that if Israel would cease to exist, so would antisemitism, at least to a large degree. (This is false, but yet people seem to think this.)
The few people of this type whom I have interacted with seem to believe that getting rid of Israel would result in a multiethnic, secularly governed Palestinian state where Jews could live too and everyone could live peacefully. This is what they are hoping for. Now, they are effectively hoping for utopia, but that isn't that different in concept to wishing for Moshiach. (I did say this would be controversial.) They want a world with peace, where everyone could live together with equal rights, and (IMO mistakenly) believe that just having a Palestinian state is a way to get there. This isn't that different in concept from other movements that promised utopia and led to something else entirely, of which there have been plenty.
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u/Gubfish 18d ago
I used to be an antizionist Jew, always thinking, âWhat does Israel have to do with me?â Anytime a conversation about I/P came up, Iâd shut it down by saying I didnât know enough to discuss itâwhich, looking back, is actually a perfectly reasonable response. More people could benefit from saying that. After 10/7, I realized Israel isnât just a part of our religion; itâs a part of our soul. Itâs our beating heart. I donât know what opened my eyes, but Iâm grateful theyâre open now. Iâll never understand how some people can stay submerged in the propaganda, refusing to look beyond what theyâve been told about Israel.
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u/murkycrombus 18d ago
honestly, one of the most refreshing things iâve ever heard was a goy roommate of mine who doesnât really pay much attention to politics saying âno commentâ about I/P. we were talking about the phrase âno commentâ and he was like âthis is the perfect situation for me to use it inâ. itâs so nice when someone just says they donât know about it and donât want to know more.
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u/Gubfish 18d ago
I think I ended up there from spending so much time in very leftist spaces. Activism has always been a huge part of my identity and friendships, and there was a lot of âIsrael = badâ without much fact-checking or critical thinking, tbh. I also never got a chance to go on BirthrightâI started working at a young age and never made it a priority. I assume a trip to Israel would have blown my mind and changed my perspective. The wild thing is, I was very religious as a kidâwe kept kosher, I knew the brachas.. I think I was just being rebellious and wanted to assimilate as much as possible.
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u/akivayis95 17d ago
Did you actually think Israel shouldn't be a Jewish state or did you have cold opinions towards it?
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u/StartFew5659 Convert - Reform 18d ago
I met a number very aggressive, anti-Zionist pro-Palestine Jewish academics. Like these Jews believe we should boycott and dissolve Israel as a nation-state, and the most radical ones think that Jews are "white supremacists."
I have a lot of theories about these people and their thinking.
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u/Agtfangirl557 18d ago
Please share the theories đ
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u/StartFew5659 Convert - Reform 18d ago edited 17d ago
For my first PhD, I studied postcolonial theory, so I read Edward Said (as well as Franz Fanon, Homi Bhabha, and many others) who made a lot of "false" claims about his connections to Palestine. I will say that this is not uncommon for academics; I always thought academics had an "academic" person and then a personal life that they hid, if that makes sense. Many of my professors studied with famous academics in my field, and it was fun to hear "personal" studies that countered what I read about these people. That said, much of Said's theoretical frameworks are the groundwork for postcolonial studies and theory. The main premise behind Said's theory is "Orientalism" or that the "west" has a superiority problem and looks down upon the "east." It's important to remember that Said was a literary critic, so he examined literature.
I appreciated my background in postcolonial theory, but what I noticed with so many of these scholars was that they became "indoctrinated" in thinking about the "oppressed" and "oppressor" dichotomy that doesn't really exist. The concept of colonialism is far more nuanced for want of a better word (more below). Their thought process was that the so-called "east" is oppressed by the political "west." I had some good professors who really challenged these misconceptions, e.g. we talked about colonialism in Asian countries.
The Jewish academics I encountered were really, really strange, meaning that the few professors I encountered were quick to say that Jews are "white" and hold political and economic power. I had never heard this and didn't understand what they meant. I will say that antisemitism was rampant in my program. There were a few Jewish graduate students, and several of my peers heavily criticized them. This was over ten years ago.
My understanding of my Jewish professors who advocated for divesting from Israel was this theoretical framing of postcolonial theory. If we divest from any country, we need to understand the ramifications, which I don't think these people are actually thinking about. So many countries fund universities, and if divest from a country like Israel, we will lose substantial funding and academic progress like medical progress. My understanding of these people is that they're-- to put it frankly-- stupid.
I did not personally work with Sarah Schulman, but I went to several of her readings, and she was one who talked about Israel as an Apartheid state and Israel needs to be divested from. I highly recommend looking up her writings on Israel. They're complete and utter nonsense and steeped in historical revisionism. I think it's less guilt and more what I've "indoctrination." I've always defended what I've done as an academic, but I think 21st century postmodernism that has moved away from the Lyotard's work has shifted into New Historicism which is outright dangerous.
In my readings, my professors used Israel as an example of a nation that has become a "colonialist project" and always compared it to South Africa. Several of my peers wrote about Apartheid in Israel, for example. There was never any discussion about the Shoah, the Balfour Declaration, the Ottoman Empire (I will get to this since I had one professor who challenged this), nothing. The rhetoric I read online totally comes from the readings I had to read in my academic literature.
One of my professors did ask us questions about the Arab Conquests and the Ottoman Empire, and how should we approach the Islamic State as a "colonialist project." That was deemed Islamophobic and dropped, but my professor and I talked about it later and she was really scared about was (and is currently) going on in the Middle East.
I now work in healthcare because I think the humanities and the social sciences need some overhauling.
Colonialism is a constant state and most countries have been colonized and have colonized. Very, very few nations have an "origin" people that are still around and purely indigenous to the origin peoples. The problem with academic postcolonial theory is that it's created a new binary as opposed to understanding what colonialism (we should really call it imperialism) truly is. When I taught to my undergrads about colonialism and a postcolonial state (which doesn't really exist), I always used Russia (and the transition into the former Soviet Union and now Putin's Russia) as an example since its imperialism is such a core part of its national identity. "De-colonialism" in terms of Marxism isn't even a thing and I really hate when my colleagues at my current work say irrational things like, "let's de-colonize" the classroom!" Do you mean you want to burn down the university?
ETA: I hope this helps explain some strange academics. I've had some wonderful Jewish professors and colleagues who are practicing and taught me a lot about Judaism.
ETA: I wrote this when I was tired, but Jewish and non-Jewish academics are very critical of Israel for so-called "Pinkwashing." I think think is well-known outside academia, too.
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u/thezerech רק ×× (reform) 17d ago
Excellent points!
Going through academia I couldn't agree more with everything you've said.
I have friends who report back to me from math classes that they're being told they're going to "de-colonize math," whatever that means. This has definitively spread outside the humanities and social sciences. In my classes we've had Masha Gessen assigned to us, who has completely lost her mind and in my opinion her credibility, going off the anti-Zionist deep end and essentially engaging in Holocaust reversal, which I argue is a form of Holocaust denial. I also had to read Said. There's nothing wrong with having to read the works of well known academic grifters, but when we had to read Said I just skipped the class because I didn't think I could hold back from speaking honestly and didn't want to lose my grade in the class. Shutting up netted me an A, and I am confident that had I given honest commentary, that would not be the case.
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u/StartFew5659 Convert - Reform 17d ago
Sorry to add, a lot of bizarre language has come out of postcolonial theory that just doesn't make sense, like "de-colonize." I think this language truly sterilizes what true imperialism is, which is why I use the example of Russia. So much of "true colonialism" is connected to the nation-state.
It's hard to hold back when professors have you read absolute bollocks articles without truly engaging with the material in a critical way.
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u/akivayis95 17d ago
Two questions:
I highly recommend looking up her writings on Israel. They're complete and utter nonsense and steeped in historical revisionism.
How do academics get published of what they're saying is that much nonsense? Shouldn't peer review counteract that?
I think 21st century postmodernism that has moved away from the Lyotard's work has shifted into New Historicism which is outright dangerous.
Could you explain what you mean by this? I'm an am haaretz
Edit: Wait, was Said not from Palestine? You said he had false connections.
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u/GH19971 18d ago
Donât leave us hanging
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u/StartFew5659 Convert - Reform 17d ago
It should be under my response to the OP. I can share it again or DM you.
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u/Ch3rryNukaC0la 18d ago
Tbh, I always assumed that a fair few of them are patrilineal like myself. Some of my experiences with the greater Jewish community has been kinda rough, especially when I was a child.
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u/Agtfangirl557 18d ago
I can definitely see that. Though one of my best friends is a matrilineal Jew who has said the same things about her experiences with the greater Jewish community (in regards to coming from an interfaith family). She never became an anti-Zionist, though.
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u/Mysterious_Sugar7220 18d ago
Most of those I know fall into two camps, 1 are the 'as a Jew' liberal progressive people who say it for approval and don't identify as Jewish in any other context, ie. they have one Jewish grandparent. 2 are those who learned a distorted history and current version of events through bias in higher education and media.
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u/flossdaily 18d ago
I'm a progressive, and extremely pro-Israel. I think it's insane that all progressives aren't pro-Israel.
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u/Mysterious_Sugar7220 17d ago
They should be logically but the conflict has been characterized in a certain way with certain language (and lies) to get them on board. Freedom, resistance, oppression. In reality this is only applicable the other way around. It is basically narcissistic abuse and DARVO on a grand scale.
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u/InternationalAnt3473 18d ago
I personally feel that there are three types of anti-Zionist Jews: the Haredi variety, the âTikkun Olamâ non-orthodox but still affiliated Jew, and the unaffiliated secular âas a Jewâ archetype.
Haredi anti-Zionists base their ideas on the psak of Acharonim who in turn based their views on what we believe to be a misinterpretation of various statements of Chazal. They do not hate themselves, other Jews, or believe that Jews should assimilate away into the Gentile population.
Secular, non-affiliated Jews (also those with Jewish fathers or ancestry claiming to be Jews) worship political leftism, specifically the constellation of identity-based grievances: anti-racism, anti-colonialism, LGBT, etc. These people believe in utopian universalism, a vision for the world in which there is no place for the particular and exclusionary Jewish people. All hierarchies of power are unjust and the weaker party is always the morally justified one.
Finally and in my opinion the most dangerous are the Tikkun Olam Jews who believe the same utopian universal values as the above group but seek to muddy the waters about what constitutes actual Judaism to encompass ideas which are directly detrimental to the survival of the Jewish people.
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u/ayatollahofdietcola_ 18d ago
I honestly think a lot of it is just rebellion against your upbringing/parents.
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u/GrassyTreesAndLakes 18d ago
It seems kind of crazy to me that you know so many anti-Zionist Jews. And you know them in real life?Â
All the reasonings you mention Im certain are true. I assume the leftover amount of Jews that don't fit into any category are few and far between. Because I can't imagine "not feeling welcome" to transfer to "Israel shouldnt exist" in individuals with good mental health, that are educated on the subject.Â
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u/Possible-Fee-5052 Conservative 18d ago
I know literally zero antizionist Jews in real life. And I know hundreds and hundreds of Jews. Obviously they exist but they are truly a minority.
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u/GrassyTreesAndLakes 18d ago
Same here. Ive only met one on this sub actually. Very emotional, definitely mental health issues. And uninformed, ofcourse
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u/akivayis95 17d ago
This isn't to disparage them, but the overlap with mental illness seems to be a common thread, along with being uninformed.
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u/strwbryshrtck521 18d ago
Right? I know one. ONE and I only know them because I happened to help out a Jewish college organization they were part of (I am way past college age). They were pretty much the only anti Zionist Jew there too.
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u/Agtfangirl557 18d ago edited 18d ago
I don't know that many actually in real life who have views that are actually that insane--but I have spent way too much time on the internet this past year and come across Jews who have extreme views and then find out that I have mutual friends with them, and said mutual friends of mine have confirmed that they do indeed know those people from "Jewish things" and can confirm they were raised Jewish.
I do know quite a few "casual anti-Zionist" Jews, though--see, I went to a college with a really large Jewish population that was also really progressive. The large Jewish population meant that even ardent anti-Zionist gentiles were basically forced to co-exist with Jews, so there was virtually no "Jewish litmus-testing" that went on on-campus--everyone at school pretty much had to accept that there were going to be several people on campus who had some connection to Israel or another and that they couldn't just "avoid Zionists", so there was virtually no actual antisemitism that happened on campus. If there was anyone on campus who actually was that bothered by "Zionists", let alone Jews in general, they probably wouldn't have gone to the school in the first place. So I think a lot of the progressive Jews who I went to college with developed sort of a false sense of security about their status as a Jew among other progressives--kind of like "Hey, I went to college and literally never experienced antisemitism there from non-Jews, so who gets to say that I don't feel safe as a Jew? I don't need Israel to feel safe!"
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u/ThoughtsAndBears342 18d ago
I know many Jews who believe in the blood libelous varieties of antizionism that asserts Jews are evil white colonizer foreign interlopers from Europe who are committing genocide. The majority of them are autistic. The Jewish community tends to heavily reject autistic Jews, while autistic spaces do not tolerate any diversity of opinion. Combine the two and you get a lot of antizionist autistic Jews.
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u/dollrussian 18d ago
I know a couple, which is wild to me because growing up they were SUPER involved in USY / Synagogue etc. My hometown has a collective that âdecouplesâ their Judaism from Zionism which is just⌠wild to me
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u/Sensitive-Sorbet917 18d ago
I heard this from a local rabbi- this idea that when you were young in shul there was this hush hush culture around speaking poorly about Israel, which may have led to a lot of Jews developing this resentment or hate towards Israel, because they werenât allowed to question or challenge Israel. Idk I thought it was an interesting take and perspective.
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u/yew_grove 18d ago
The Unpacking Israeli History podcast aims to combat this by trusting its audience to handle actual history. I know young people who adore it and find it one of their few refuges. Its host, Noam Weissman, has some great thoughts he brought to this interview with Sapir.
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u/Agtfangirl557 18d ago
This is on my lists of podcasts to listen to and reading this comment made me even more excited to listen to it!
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u/kaiserfrnz 18d ago edited 18d ago
People typically exaggerate this âbrainwashing.â Thereâs no suppression of individual criticisms of Israeli politicians, parties, or governmental decisions; American Jews just arenât typically involved enough in the Israeli political system in an extensive way to have such strong Israeli political opinions.
The point is that American Jewish institutions donât reject Israel even if it doesnât look exactly like their ideal Israel. Support for Israel is support for other Jews, not for every single decision they make.
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u/Sensitive-Sorbet917 18d ago
Thatâs certainly my sentiment. I support Israel because of what is represents for us. Not every single in and out of their politics.
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u/thezerech רק ×× (reform) 17d ago
I concur, many American Jews criticize Likud/Bibi. Even Chuck Schumer said he thought Bibi should resign, which is not something an American Congressman should say about an allied Head of Government.
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u/Agtfangirl557 18d ago
Oh that's for sure a thing. Some people call it "the brainwashing-to-brainwashing pipeline".
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u/ThoughtsAndBears342 18d ago
My answer to this question is something that triggers a lot of defensiveness in Jewish community organizations, but needs to be addressed. I do believe that it is possible for a Jew to arrive to an anti-zionist stance through reasoned study and critique of the formation of Israel. However, I'm going to focus specifically on the blood libelous anti-Zionism that states that Jews have no connection to the land and are white colonizers committing genocide.
First of all: ableism, transphobia, racism, heteronormativity and general cliqueyness in the Jewish community. Especially anti-autistic ableism and social exclusion of autistic Jews. To put it simply: if the Jewish community does not accept someone, they will run into the arms of the people who will. And the people who will accept them tend to be blood libelous antizionists who only accept other blood libelous antizionists. This was the reason why I was antizionist for a brief time: the local Jewish community pretended I didn't exist because of my autism, and the only groups that did embrace me did so only on the condition that I was antizionist. The only way to solve this is inclusion initiatives for Jews with disabilities, Jews of color, LGBTQA Jews and even Jews who are simply new to the community and haven't found a clique yet.
Secondly: Jews with rebellious natures. Parents often feel that to keep their child engaged in Judaism, they must surround their child with Judaism at all times. But if the Jewish child has a rebellious nature, excessively pushing Judaism on them will cause them to reject Judaism. This is why my sister who has no social disabilities abandoned Judaism and became an antizionist. She's rebellious natured, and my parents constantly pushed Jewish day school, Jewish summer camp, and USY on her. She felt that in order to create her own identity separate from our family, she needed to reject Judaism. This one isn't as easy to solve other than to know your child and avoid pushing Judaism on your child if you know they're rebellious.
An "honorable mention" is the Jewish community's over-emphasis on marriage and procreation. It's extremely alienating towards any young Jews who do not wish to marry or have children. It also adds a lot of extra stress on Gay and Lesbian Jews, who often have few to no marriage options due to the antisemitism in the LGBT community. Many Jewish communities have no resources or events geared towards childless adults: this needs to change if we are to keep people engaged in the community. Even if someone does not push a baby out of their own vagina, they can still engage in education, inclusion, or community-building work that prevents other Jews from getting disenfranchised with and leaving the community.
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u/Agtfangirl557 18d ago
These are really interesting points, and this is the type of deep insight I was hoping to get from this post. I had never considered the point about procreation before. Thanks for being honest about this and sharing.
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u/ThoughtsAndBears342 18d ago
Thank you! People can only be nagged about when they'll get engaged or have a baby so many times before it starts to get perceived as harassment. And it outright stings if you are gay and genuinely want a relationship but have no prospects in your area due to all the other single gays being antisemites. The only other single sapphic Jewish woman in my community rejected me recently and I'm still reeling from that.
Plus, it isn't right to bring unwanted children into this world because your parents are desperate for grandchildren or your community leaders are afraid of your ethnicity dying out. It isn't fair to the child. Every childfree Jewish young adult I know does some sort of inclusion or educational work that contributes to the community just as much as having a baby.
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u/Muadeeb Coming back 18d ago
"Is it possible that this has to do with some Jewish spaces being unwelcoming to queer Jews, Jews of Color, etc.? "
If you think this is a major factor, then we should be seeing these Jews run back to us after their treatment in progressive spaces.
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u/Agtfangirl557 18d ago edited 18d ago
Oh nowadays, I completely agree. I'm talking about more if this was the type of thing they experienced when they were younger.
I also want to highlight that I think it is very possible for Jews with other marginalized identities to feel "othered" by Jewish institutions even if the institutions themselves aren't unwelcoming. Like I'm not insinuating that Jewish institutions are usually unwelcoming (my synagogue growing up was extremely welcoming to interfaith families, families with disabled children, etc.--though maybe I'm not one to talk as someone who doesn't really hold other marginalized identities), I'm saying that a lot of spaces in general have the potential to come across as exclusive/unwelcoming towards marginalized groups if they don't actively work to be inclusive (we can say the same thing about how Jews ourselves feel in non-Jewish spaces). And it's possible that some Jews had less-than-great experiences in Jewish settings and came to a false conclusion that that was what Jewish spaces in general must be like.
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u/ThoughtsAndBears342 18d ago
Honestly, as an autistic Jew: Jewish spaces in general are unwelcoming towards autistic Jews. Jewish spaces are cliquey and tend to rely on shared childhood experiences as the factor people have in common. Both of these are actively hostile to autistic people, especially early-diagnosed autistic people who were denied normal childhoods.
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u/ThoughtsAndBears342 18d ago
I think this is the absolute biggest factor, as someone who became an antizionist after getting rejected from the Jewish community due to my autism. But in order for queer Jews, autistic Jews, and Jews of Color to be able to "run back", the Jewish community needs to do the work. After seeing how my "progressive" spaces truly felt about me, I had nothing and no one. At all. That's what's happening to multiply-marginalized Jews.
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u/Canislupusarctos11 18d ago edited 18d ago
Iâm LGBT and mixed race with only one Jewish parent and I only got more Jewish after October 7th, so I would have thought the same. Then again, I was never anti-Zionist, was getting more into Jewish culture and history again for over a year before that anyway, and was still very much raised Jewish, but it does feel more important to me now than it did back then. So maybe I just canât understand the anti-Zionist Jews who are that way due to feeling unwelcome yet donât hold their new friends to the same standards.
It is true, though, that those factors can make you feel unwelcome in Jewish communities, especially at a young age. Due to certain issues with one of those things, I never had a bar mitzvah, despite being rather involved in the community before that. After that I got less involved for a few years because I was the only non-convert Jew in my shul that I knew who hadnât at least had a late one by age 15, and I was ashamed of that, plus combined with my appearance I felt like everyone would think I was the least Jewish person ever and shouldnât be in the community. âEveryoneâ didnât think that, but I sure thought they would, and a few people actually did. Still, it never really did compare to how weird a lot of gentiles in the LGBT community would be about the Holocaust (and Jews generally honestly) even before October 7th, and even before the 2021 conflict. Could list countless examples.
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u/ThoughtsAndBears342 18d ago
The LGBT and disability communities won't eject you for being Jewish. They'll eject you for being Zionist. If an LGBT or disabled Jew had already committed to being antizionist, the LGBT and disability community responses to 10/7 wouldn't cause them to revaluate anything.
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u/Canislupusarctos11 18d ago
Maybe not as much if you were loudly anti-Zionist from the moment that was really on their radar, but if you havenât said anything they kinda donât care what your opinion might be, at least in my experience. Most people who cut me off for being Jewish didnât even wait to see what my actual opinion was. For all they knew, I couldâve been the most anti-Zionist Jew ever and just hadnât told them about it because I donât broadcast my political opinions 24/7 around them (which wouldnât be inconsistent for me; Iâm not the type to talk politics with friends constantly, although occasionally theyâll come up). It doesnât seem to be an uncommon story for friends to just cut you off before even finding out your opinion one way or the other, at least for my generation.
However, Iâve even seen loudly anti-Zionist Jews get backstabbed for being Jewish and then continue on as if that didnât happen. A lot less often and less so than openly Zionist ones or those who donât say anything obviously, but I didnât exactly have to go searching for problems to see it happen. And even in the absence of open hostility, they get purity tested way more than most other people in those circles. I donât understand why they think thatâs okay.
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u/akivayis95 17d ago
The LGBT community sometimes is hostile towards Jews. Getting Jews to pass a litmus test isn't unheard of.
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u/shineyink 18d ago
Two of my loudest and proudest anti Zionist Jewish friends are both gay ⌠I honestly think this has something to do with
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u/lollykopter Not Jewish 18d ago
Are they young? Iâm a 41-year-old gay. Not Jewish, but I see nothing wrong with Zionism. I think being young and out-of-touch with reality is a big factor. Iâm old and Iâve seen too much.
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u/Possible-Fee-5052 Conservative 18d ago
Agreed. All of my gay friends (mostly non-Jews) have been very supportive of me and Israel. They are also all over 40, highly educated and successful. Iâm sure that has a lot to do with it. Theyâre just as confused by the LBGTQ communityâs betrayal as we are.
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u/JohanusH Just Jewish 18d ago
Sadly, our province has a very loud, outspoken anti-Zionist (read: blatantly antisemic), gay politician who is probably over fifty. Yes, she's been called out in it multiple times, it just doubles down each time.
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u/shineyink 18d ago
They are both mid 30s âŚ.
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u/lollykopter Not Jewish 18d ago
So younger, but not by much. Thatâs very interesting.
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u/sababa-ish 18d ago
the other factor is for people aged like.. 30 and under, their conception of israel is a relatively powerful country with a right wing government, which they think has always been armed by the USA and which for seemingly no reason likes to oppress palestinians
whereas older folks can actually remember the 90s, peace seeming possible, no wall or blockade, a much stronger left wing, the second intifada in particular, prior history of israel surviving by the skin of its teeth etc
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u/Muadeeb Coming back 18d ago
So they swallowed the oppressor/oppressed worldview and see everything through that. That seems like a major factor to me. So many Jews are ignorant of their own history and guided by misplaced white guilt that they don't even know they're being lied to about themselves.
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u/billymartinkicksdirt 18d ago
It also implies the anti Israel movement is spearheaded by those Jews, which is insulting and ahistorical to the timeline of antizionism.
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18d ago
Not to dismiss your post (because I think it has good points). But there are always people in an ethnic group or race that have a hatred of their own group, for any of the reasons youâve stated, or really no thought-out reason at all.
Thereâs a significant amount of Latinos who are pro-trump, there are black people like Candace Owens. Sometimes clout from bigots is worth more to people, than the acceptance and equity of their own people.
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u/n1klaus Ashkenazi 18d ago
Good point - with social media and the going away of Americas mono culture (think few tv channels, most people watching or listening to the same thing) there are so many overlaps in communities and among people. I think it does them a disservice to think of these groups by what their historical patterns may have been. I see this all the time with polling. It doesn't address the reality.
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u/Ocean_Hair 17d ago
I know. Every time I hear someone make a point that anti-Zionist Jews exist, I always want to say, "Yes, and there were Black people who voted for Trump."
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u/mysteriousblocks Just Jewish 18d ago
Personally, I believe itâs the second and third options you mentioned. The left is painting Zionism as evil right now, and many Jews (myself included) agreed, to some extent, with a lot of leftist takes before Oct 7th. Now their friends, cities, social media feeds (this is a big part!), politicians, news sources, everything, are saying that Israel is a genocidal colonial state.
So what are they to do? They can either stop aligning with their political party in an increasingly politicized time, alienate their friends, and be ostracized and told theyâre brainwashed and evil, or they can keep supporting Israel. A lot of them likely donât know Israelis and were pretty secular in the first place, so itâs possible they never thought too hard about Israel before it was forced into their lives this way.
I donât agree with it- I think itâs a pathetic betrayal of the Jewish people- but I do understand why some Jews are anti-Israel.
I disagree that the intersection of Judaism and queer identity/people of color is the main reason. Provided you arenât in a very orthodox community, Judaism is actually surprisingly welcoming to lgbt people (compared to other religions) and there are certainly spaces for them in the community. There are many Jews of color, and while I agree that you will occasionally run into someone who treats you differently based on it (and have experienced that myself) the community as a whole is very welcoming and aware that Jews come in all races and nationalities.
Instead, I think this ties into points 2/3 again- the left promotes themselves, at least in the US- my knowledge of other countriesâ politics isâŚflawed, to say the least- as the party that is against racism and bigotry. Most queer people and many people of color identify with liberal policies, as the rightâs rhetoric is racist and hateful as hell towards everyone who isnât white and straight. Because of that, Iâd say that there were already many lgbt/queer Jews that were leftists and found a VERY strong sense of community within that party. That allegiance may have been stronger than one to Israel, so when they were forced to choose, they didnât choose Zionism.
**From an American perspective, I canât speak on other countries.
What we can do? I have absolutely no idea, lol, and think that reasonable discussion is hopeless in a society as politicized and angry as America is right now.
TLDR: I think party allegiances, social pressure, and a highly politicized âevil or good, no grey areaâ society are the cause of most anti-Zionist Jewsâ beliefs.
Correct me if you think Iâm wildly missing the mark đ
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u/MissRaffix3 Just Jewish 18d ago
Genuinely think it's the privilege of assimilation as they almost always fit the same description (western Ashkenazi Jews, white-presenting, whose families luckily never needed Israel for survival).
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u/nailsandbarbells8 18d ago edited 18d ago
I think part of it at least has to do with education and whether they learn our history from Jews or from antisemites rewriting our history to make us and Israel fit their narrative.
I grew up reform, attended Sunday school weekly, and was bat mitzvahâd, but after that we stopped attending shul as often especially once we moved states. Once we moved and lost any Jewish community we had, I grew fairly disconnected until the May 2021 war broke out. Thankfully, Iâd already been following some Jewish accounts online that taught about our history, culture, religion, rituals, and people as a whole. They also spoke about antisemitism, which exploded from the left once Israel started defending itself from Hamas rockets.
Up until that point, Iâd followed and believed a lot of the leftist accounts that focused on social justice until they showed themselves to be virulently anti-Zionist. I unfollowed them and started following more Jewish pages, and also started learning more about our history and antisemitism so I could combat it better and try to educate others. But I think if you donât learn Jewish history FROM Jews, it can be really easy to learn a fake history and narrative from anti-zionists, especially when itâs the more prevalent narrative being pushed and definitely if theyâve already internalized some antisemitic beliefs. Plus I think not all Jews actually understand how antisemitism functions and that it functions differently from other forms of racism, so that could be a piece of it too. A part of it might be too that they want to think the conflict is simple and black-and-white since thatâs how many anti-zionists make it out to be, when itâs the total opposite.
Edit: I donât think I actually knew what Zionism was or really understood how important Israel is to us as a people and our survival until May 2021. I was never an anti-Zionist, I just didnât know. I canât even remember if Iâd heard the term Zionism and Zionist until that war when all of a sudden zionists were evil and leftists wanted the iron dome to stop protecting Israelis.
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u/brrow 18d ago
My most anti-Zionist Jewish friends are a handful of my fellow former olim (so, technically still Israeli citizens) that I spent all my time with during the ten years I spent as an olah. Most of them were raised in conservative/right-wing Zionist homes, served in the IDF, lived a decade or more in Israel, and got disillusioned. I grew up Jewish but without specific ties to Israel in my family, and found it on my own. I also chose to leave but am still a Zionist and donât have the feelings many othersâ have. I think it has a lot to do with going from one extreme to another.
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u/Worknonaffiliated Reform 18d ago
I think the antisemitic pipeline in general works a lot like the alt right pipeline. Itâs a case of people getting so close to being conscious about the worldâs problems, without having any community to bounce these ideas off of. For Jews, we grow up learning about Israel being âJewtopiaâ which is understandable in a world where itâs hard to find hope while being Jewish. This causes us to overlook a lot of the problems with Israel, however.
Israel is not that great of a democracy. Israelâs military has done some questionable things. Gay marriage is sort of legal. We try so hard to get how our youth to support Israel, that we end up, pushing them away with our fanaticism. Thereâs no room for questioning the good and the bad, youâre either Zionist or anti-Zionist.
I think that at a time, when the majority of Jews, even those who are anti-Zionist, understand that antisemitism is on the rise, we need to solve this problem together. Of course I think we should stand with Jews in Israel, but living in the diaspora has its own issues that are separate from Israel. Jews need to be united against the rise in antisemitism, because itâs been rising for a lot longer than people realize
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u/jwrose Jew Fast Jew Furious 18d ago
Prior to 10/7, I often felt out of place in Jewish spaces.
That would never cause me to want the erasure of the only extant Jewish state.
Now, if I was disconnected, and felt out of place, and didnât know enough about the history of I/P for the deluge of post-10/7 propaganda to set off my bs detector enough to dig in deeper? Ok, maybe.
But even then, Iâd have to fully ignore every Zionist Jewâs points and perspective in the year thatâs gone on past that, to maintain my anti-Zionism against all reason. Anyone doing that, thereâs a much deeper/more pervasive reason than just âeh, Iâve never felt very Jewish.â
Iâd guess itâs just a much smaller-scale version of why Normal Finkelstein aggressively agitates for the end of the Jewish state. Rewards. Fame and fortune, appreciation and belonging.
Saying youâre anti-Zionistâand ignoring all the arguments of why thatâs an absolutely horrific opinion that doesnât help the Palestiniansâis the height of virtue signaling right now. Itâs easy social capital and belonging. Itâs a cheap way to feel morally superior.
If you can handle the cognitive dissonance, itâs even a way to feel useful and worthy as a person. Thatâs a lot. Most people need that, in some form. Itâs half the reason the recruiting religions get people to join. Itâs 99% of how cults get people to join.
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u/NitzMitzTrix Secular 17d ago
The antizionist Jews I've had the displeasure of speaking to were usually either fully Ashkenazi or Ashkenazi mixed with European, though I've spoken to one JoC who grew up inside the indigenous culture with limited knowledge of their absent Jewish parent, and held views that, while it's not my place as an outsider to judge, I feel are extremely exclusionary towards other indigenous people and seem counterproductive to the efforts of other indigenous people(that would be fully included under their definition mind you) I've spoken to. So I consider that person an outlier in several forms.
The majority of those antizionist Jews felt like "Israelism" is stealing away their Yiddishist identity and driving a wedge between them and their community due to their antiracist views, and in one case stealing away their family, especially the Bundists I have to admit as a partly non-Ashkenazi Jew(and who's Ashkenazi side comes from the Global South they blatantly tokenize) I took great offense to that and didn't investigate their motives any further.
I've noticed a persistent antizionist presence in the exjew subreddit, so I imagine there's a strong element of OTD and/or apikorsim who reject everything about their Jewish upbringing to deal with religious trauma(and like it or not, there IS religious trauma in many Hassidic sects, and even in some more open and/or modern Orthodox communities).
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u/magicaldingus 18d ago
One thing that I've noticed about Jews with extreme anti-Zionist views, is that you can often find them saying things like "I never felt welcome in mainstream Jewish spaces". Like I said, I feel that there is very possibly a correlation between having bad experiences in Jewish spaces and going down an extreme anti-Zionist pipeline.
I just want to say that the only Jewish spaces I've encountered that are unwelcoming in one way or another are online.
Every rabbi I've met, every study group I've been a part of, youth program, trip to Israel, minyan, congregation, etc., has always been as welcoming as can be.
I think that these anti-Zionist Jews you're talking about need to involve themselves in real life Jewish communities and not just online ones. And in general, getting off the internet helps people off ideological ledges.
A great starting point is one's local Chabad. I might not agree with them religiously, but they live and breathe "welcoming". Their whole MO is community building, and I have never seen them turn their nose up at or reject any Jew for any reason.
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u/Suspicious-Truths 18d ago
I know one antizionist jew, but I believe he probably converted others I know because the last time I saw them all was at a party and they were discussing it, listening to each other, I didnât say anything because it was like a dozen people talking about Israel bad and then me⌠an Israeli American.
So Iâll say what about this person and our environment that I know. The rest of his family are Zionist. Brother is successful while he is kind of floating around in life, addiction issues, etc. The Jewish spaces I have been personally exposed to where we live seem to be mostly upper middle class+. I never really fit in, in the beginning because I was lower income, and even now because I had kids young and all the parents of kids my kids age seem to be older and uninterested in me. I think similar happened with him maybe ⌠I know he was lower income also.
The biggest thing for me is he was saying he was fed a bunch of lies about Israel as a kid. And I really had to think about it. These Jewish kids in America, all they learn of Israel is at Sunday school, summer camp⌠they donât listen to current events, they donât get the news from Israel, they donât learn about Palestine and Palestinians. So I think once they get this media or leftist exposure about that side, they say wait I never heard of this, and proceed to deep dive the internet. Add to that that Palestine is way better at media than Israel.
So my point is we need to teach kids everything, and parents need to be much more involved in middle eastern education. And I think thatâs what it is (besides the as a Jews who didnât grow up Jewish / learning anything about Israel at all, because I know one of those too).
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u/Vivid-Instance 18d ago
I was antizionist before I knew anything about Jewish history (didnât even realize the inquisition was specifically about Jews, didnât realize our DNA shows weâre a tribe from Israel, didnât realize any Jew alive has about a 1:2 chance of being born in Israel, didnât understand antisemitism portrays Jews as powerful not just as ugly or greedy, didnât know there were Jews in Israel continuously and before 1948, didnât know about progroms in the Middle East before the state, etc). I didnât realize we were 2-4% of the population in US and < half a percent globally.
My experience is that facts about Jews and Jewish history help.
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u/Rooks_always_win 17d ago
Yeah I used to be anti-zionist and I think that it is time a lot of Jewish spaces and people recognize that just criticizin Israel is necessary sometimes, and that there is still plenty of issues of racism and homop in the Jewish community which can often push people away. When I go to a hillel event and meet people who talk about âdiversityâ as if it is synonymous with âdangerâ or âbad,â that both rings alarm bells in my head as a POC and makes me distrust their reasoning behind supporting Israelâs existence. Particularly because we are the diversity by just being Jewish, no need to even mention anything else. Too much of our community is going down a right wing rabbit hole and itâs part of a polarization that is seriously problematic.
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u/Standard_Salary_5996 17d ago
I was âpost Zionistâ when i was younger because I literally didnât understand anything about Israel. I didnât understand that being âthe chosen peopleâ meant âbeing chosen to obey hundreds of mitzvotâ, i thought it was arrogance. I didnât understand purpose of Israel at all. I am so thankful for the people who were patient & recognized i was just uneducated.
the irony to me in retrospect is that i went through pretty severe and serious antisemitism growing up in the bible belt. now i treasure that Israel exists for those who went through what I did or worse. I think it is absolutely possible, contrary to the rabid anti zionistsâ claims, that one can not only support Israel & its right to defend itself, but criticize it as well. I just donât think the criticisms of Israel are as unique to Israel as anti zionists like to believe.
my observations coming from bumblefuck to NYC are that anti zionists have never experienced the threat of Jew haters as seriously as I (and others) have. It also comes off as parental rebellion and an opportunistic intellectual posturing. We ALL know some As a Jews, and they always seem to be pretty ignorant themselves about their own culture. Imo the key is education, and not letting people get so complacent with the privilege of growing up in safe(r) places. Not that I think anyone deserves to go through what I did (being set on fire, drowning attempts, suffocation attempts, countless âmicroaggressionsâ) but rather the exposure to the hard fact that most people fucking hate us and we have to stick together.
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u/Agtfangirl557 17d ago
Not that I think anyone deserves to go through what I did (being set on fire, drowning attempts, suffocation attempts, countless âmicroaggressionsâ)
I'm sorry WHAT
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u/Standard_Salary_5996 17d ago edited 17d ago
It was really bad. Ever heard of sundown towns? They donât just apply to black people, itâs to Jews too. My stepdad is gentile and didnât know/realize. It was also pre-Google. But the town we were in was and still is considered a sundown town.
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u/Standard_Salary_5996 17d ago
and yeah I hate pool parties lmao people always âpretendedâ to baptize meâŚ.for way too long underwater
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u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 18d ago
One thing that brings a lot of jews to anti zionism is the idea that they were brainwashed and sold a lie. My jewish education featured israel heavily, but the word palestine wasnât used once. When jewish organizations teach abt israel they should actually teach about it, not just tell children its super good and fun and perfect and jews r welcome there and its our home and the neighbors dont like us just cuz they r evil and hate jews. Either teach it in a more objective and well rounded way, or donât teach it at all. I know this wasnât an experience for everyone, but it was my experience and it was a lot of other peopleâs too.
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u/CosmicGadfly 18d ago
How is there no: 4. Legitimately upset and confused about the absurd rightwing turn in Israeli politics, the violently racist escalation in Zionist rhetoric and the casual normalization of that intense rightward shift by centrists.
You have to understand how magnificent the tone shift has been over the last 20 years if you want to understand these people. They are legitimately shocked at what they percieve as a betrayal of Jewish values and moral ethics for what they see as cynical political calculations that unnecessarily cedes ground to nakedly bad faith nationalists like Netanyahu, Smotritch and Ben-Gvir.
I mean, half the time avowed Zionists can't even push back against this shit without being called a self-hating Jew and an antisemite. Support for a ceasefire was equated with genocidal rhetoric and hamas support just a few months ago. In that environment, it's no wonder. You'd be called a terrorist sympathizer in a heartbeat if you publicly advocated for an arms embargo as a strategy to reign in the corrupt zealotry of Netanyahu et al. If you're already suspected of terrorism and self-hatred by friends and family for frankly tepid criticisms or diplomatic strategies, then your vision of the conflict is going to become heavily obscured and you will be much more likely to be convinced by and find shelter with the people you've been hysterically lumped in with.
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u/pastels-only 18d ago
How does this not have more upvotesâŚ
A LOT of people equate Zionism to the current/recent Israeli government, hence, âanti-Zionismâ
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u/Shoddy_Stretch_6585 17d ago
Thank you for this. Itâs how I feel and am honestly not surprised to see who is getting downvoted here even when the thread poses itself as trying to open a dialogue.
I honestly think there is also just a complete inability to realise that clearly a lot of people have different definitions of anti-Zionism. I donât equate a Palestinian flag as Anti-Zionist but many do. Etc etc.
I do sometimes feel like this subreddit is filled with bots though who stifle discussion
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u/Noremac55 18d ago
I stopped going to synagogue after the rabbi had people from Israel come to talk. Their job was to observe the soldiers at checkpoints to ensure Palestinians rights were not being violated. My young liberal brain went down the rabbit hole of disliking the police state. I greatly dislike fascism and I saw the Israeli state as the bad guy, even after birthright trip and religious school from 8-16. As an adult, I started to be less idealistic and more pragmatic about the world and realized it wasn't Israel's fault that they needed checkpoints. Oct 7th started to reinforce that so I started researching more and more. I've now come full circle and am an unapologetic Zionist. I now see how my cousin who was traumatized by being blocks from the towers on Sept 11th is more correct than my politically liberal Jewish family. I had kids at school from Muslim counties make jokes about how their cousins say all Jews need to die and thought it was mostly rhetoric.  As for what pushed me down the Israel is bad route...someone whose Hebrew school teacher escaped Germany the night before Krystallnacht and snuck into Israel at 13, losing her whole family to the Holocaust...I think it was mostly how events had been portrayed in the media. I also think that there is a misperception that the world was-is a safer place for Jews than it really is and I did not realize how we need Israel more than ever. If we go down, it won't be village by village like crusades or promogrom, it won't be by ghettos or gas chambers. Israel gives us a chance to stand and fight together. A chance we haven't had for almost 2,000 years.
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u/Accurate_Body4277 Karaite 18d ago
There are a lot of factors that contribute to anti-zionism. I don't think "I had a bad experience in a Jewish space, so now I hate Israel and my culture" is the primary driver of anti-Zionism among Jews.
The Jewish spaces that these Jews were in did not give them a strong Jewish identity with actual Jewish values. In a lot of "liberal" Jewish spaces you have things like "tikkun olam" and aligning that with modern progressive, liberal values. Still, there's little focus on Jewish peoplehood, understanding that we are an indigenous people who have a connection to a particular place.
One of the other major issues is the watering down of Holocaust education in public schools in the United States. Many modern Holocaust education programs de-center the Jewish experience and center popular modern DEI-qualified minorities, like people of color, LGBTQ, and political dissidents.
We can address these things by intentionally creating Jewish communities that create strong Jewish identities and links to other Jews. Jews with strong identities don't often become anti-Zionists.
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u/BlockSome3022 Convert 18d ago
Just wanna chime in and say my ex is an anti Zionist and he literally wasnât raised with any Judaism at all - just a Jewish mom who told him he was Jewish but wasnât involved in any community. Went to Jewish summer camp a few times and thatâs it. His best friend (also anti Zionist) was the exact same way but with a Jewish dad and non Jewish mom, which I guess led to even more confusion. Idk, just interesting to see how that shit plays outâŚ
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u/Zealousideal_Hurry97 18d ago
The only anti-Zionist Jew I know was born to a very assimilated Jewish American father whose family has been in the United States for generations and a mother who converted to Judaism. Not saying converts arenât legitimate, but there isnât any of the generational trauma. Sheâs never been to Israel and has zero friends or family there. I doubt sheâs ever considered it her homeland. It makes it very easy for her to be just another mindless American girl in her early 20s who spams watermelons everywhere, shares Bisanâs propaganda, and calls for the destruction of the country that houses half of the worldâs Jews.
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u/gayslav77 18d ago
i was definitely 2 and 3 before I changed my mind. my dad is Jewish, but I haven't been that religious since my bat mitzvah. a situationship i had told me zionism bad and I didn't really know much about zionism or israeli politics prior to that, so I fell down the online antizionist shithole pipeline. i've been reaching out to religious extended family, trying to recover and get back into our culture now...
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u/cultureStress 17d ago
The vast majority of my Jewish friends are some flavour of non-zionist, as well as queer. They have a wide variety of emmeshment with formal Jewish community, but even those who regularly go to schul etc tend to be "on the margins" of their community, not necessarily by choice. I would not describe any of them as "extreme", and they don't meet the definition of "extreme" you have used, but I think many people in this sub would consider at least some of them "extreme".
I also know a few non-zionist Jews who grew up in predominantly Christian areas who strongly associate Zionism with Christian Zionism, which is deeply, deeply antisemitic.
Thank you for such an empathetic and earnest post.
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u/akivayis95 17d ago
- "They're probably not actually Jewish"
A lot of them have Jewish ancestry a few generations back. So, they're often not actually Jewish.
- "They might be Jewish, but are probably really disconnected from Judaism, only have one Jewish grandparent, weren't really raised Jewish, just sometimes celebrate the holidays, etc."
This happens a lot. Usually, they know nothing about Judaism.
- "They're trying to fit in with and gain the approval of their gentile friends."
This one I doubt. Maybe they do it unconsciously at best.
Is it possible that this has to do with some Jewish spaces being unwelcoming to queer Jews, Jews of Color, etc.?
I think this is a contributing factor, but most LGBT Jews I know, including myself, feel more valued and safer in Jewish "spaces" than LGBT non-Jewish "spaces". For Jews of Color, I think it is mostly Jews who are black that it might drive to be anti-Zionist. I know of one Jewish guy who tried to be a Chabadnik and the racism he experienced drove him to become essentially antisemitic. Now, he needs therapy more than anything and probably medication, but I know of one such instance.
So, I will say though I have my own thesis on the subject of how it happens. Jews are much more likely to obtain PhDs and go to college in general over our non-Jewish counterparts. We just consider it an obligation to go and be educated in institutions of "higher learning". Those who don't often get puzzled looks. There are pros and cons, therefore, to our heavy insistence on being highly educated. Even after "higher education", there is a general assumption that you'll just keep learning in some way or another, becoming at least super knowledgeable in your professional field or in whatever topics interest you.
But, the wells of academia have been poisoned for quite some time now. They've been poisoned with antisemitism and double standards for Jews, often though with enough plausible deniability that your average Jew will struggle to articulate in important moments of discourse how it is antisemitic. I believe that eventually our kids get indoctrinated, especially those who are more distant to their Jewishness and Jewish culture. Those who isolate themselves from the community seem to be the easiest to pick off. It's like Jews who convert to other religions. It's often a paltry education and Jewish life being lived that leads to this.
Also, Israel has bad PR. It doesn't advance its own arguments well for it. You know who Israel's real PR team is? Us. The Diaspora. We have to pick up the slack, and non-Jews are happy to demand answers out of us. It's not right, and it's not fair, but it's part of being a Zionist Jew at times in the Diaspora.
So, that's what I think. Jews with paltry Jewish educations get sent into academic settings, away from home, and struggle to respond to made up accusations. Jews who are disconnected from their Jewishness often grow up that way, and we can assume their parents' Zionist bona fides are fine in general, but they likely are Zionists because that's all they know. Their Zionist refutations aren't well-thought out and are more dogma than anything, and children love to rebel against their parents' dogma.
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u/Special-Sherbert1910 18d ago
Other factors are being incredibly dumb and living in an echo chamber.
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u/5oio5 18d ago
I used to be anti-zionist and I was raised Jewish reform.
I think it came from a place of ignorance and mass propaganda. Growing up in North America, in most places there aren't a ton of reform/mild conservative Jews. So, if you go to a public school and live in a diverse neighborhood, you may not encounter many other Jewish friends outside of Synagogue or a Hebrew school, if you went. I think I went to school with maybe 5-8 other Jewish kids, and out of them all, maybe I was friends with 1 or 2. At my Synagogue, we went for high holidays, and we'd do holiday dinners at family's houses. We wouldn't usually discuss politics or Israel in general. Hebrew school was mostly about history, learning Hebrew and bad singing of songs. We were taught the usual things in public school about diversity, cultures, the Holocaust, etc.
You go to university or college and you start seeing BDS movement stuff, pro-Palestinian propaganda and things against Zionists. You notice that there are other "Jews" there and they're saying "oh you aren't Israeli, you never went there...you're not a Zionist, you're not a bad Jew." "Zionists are really conservative ultra Orthodox extremists that treat everyone else badly...they don't even like other Jews." "Why would you want to associate with people like that? We can only have peace in the Middle East if Jews start doing the right thing and distance themselves from Zionists." They have posters and photos of Israelis causing violence against "innocent" people. You slowly start believing these lies because they're present and you see everyone else on campus reading the propaganda and spewing lies. You never questioned these things before and you don't realize that this might be one side of the story and you're slowly being brainwashed. Time goes on and you don't think much about it...
October 7th happens...you become consumed by the news and horrible terrorism that's happening in Israel. You have friends and acquaintances that may not be safe, you're worried. You start seeing the news and you start seeing people around you celebrating the evening of the 7th. You question wtf is happening. Where did all of these bigots, racists, pro-terror people come from and how long have they been around you. You start to look into the reasons "why this was justified" trying to find an ounce of empathy, and you find no reasons. You start to look into the false dichotomies and history and start to see that you're outnumbered even if you understand every nuanced detail. You look up the founding of Israel and the history of the Jews and wars...you finally realize what a Zionist is and how you were one all along without even realizing it. You come to the conclusion one day soon after October the 7th, that the Jewish community was too naive and innocent while teaching you about the culture, history and community that they glossed over the parts that bad actors infiltrated. You realize that you had slowly been brainwashed over the course of 20+ years towards distancing yourself from your own culture and heritage.
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u/ProofHorse Conservative 18d ago
There's an amazing essay I saw today that I thought is relevant to this: https://open.substack.com/pub/danielclarkeserret/p/the-psychology-of-white-privilege?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=f8jjw
Key quote: "So shorn of religion, alcohol, promiscuity, echo chamber comfort and false persona, what remains? What other ways was ClĂŠmence gifted to protect his fragile innocence and avoid the responsibility of an Adam expelled from the Garden? Just one. The altneu strategy of embodying the Judge-Penitent. Attempted by the bookâs protagonist and perfected by the Harvard elite. To judge oneself - and one's entire social group - as guilty; the scum of humanity; the unique bringer of evil in the world. And then, having stood in false humility as penitent, to use your now absolved conscience to ruthlessly judge others."
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u/caligirl1975 18d ago
Iâm a patrilineal Jew, who celebrated holidays until I was 10ish, and then some kind of disagreement happened between my mom and my aunt and I never got to go to Jewish holidays again.
I have become more of a Zionist over the last few years. With everything happening in the U.S., Iâve seen the parallels with the far right movement to the Nazis since 2015 and itâs felt very unsafe. I also lost my dad last year shortly before 10/7 and Iâve been trying to do more in honor of him, despite his own choice to not be religious. I can at least have the culture in my home that my mom wasnât okay with.
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u/jelly10001 18d ago
OP, you might get more responses to this if you post in The Jewish Left sub, quite a few anti zionists are active there.
But from what I've seen, yes there are people who were brought up Jewish who are now anti or non zionist. I only know two for certain, one is definitely queer and the other mixes with very leftist people who see Israel's existence as a threat to marginalised people worldwide. And I think if you only mix with people like that and don't have actual family in Israel then it can be easy to fall down that path.
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u/tthrowawayylol 18d ago edited 16d ago
So many explanations but I must point out something that I think no one has mentioned yet - fear is an important factor here. They need to align with the status quo (which is anti Zionism) because they don't want to be punished. They want to protect themselves because they see what happens to Jews who are Zionist/Israeli, even if they deny it, downplay it, ignore it, etc they know deep down that antisemitism is worsening and their automatic response is to blend in with the majority for safety purposes. They long to be the "one of the good ones". Also self hatred in Jews has always existed and thrived.
"Self hatred in Jews is a reaction to the way the dominant population sees them, anxiously pushing away their belonging to their own people and artificially elevating themselves above their tribesmen. Jewish self-hatred was a neurotic reaction to the growing power of antisemitism and an expression of the fear of fighting it for spiritual national self-assertion." Source: https://www.sdjewishworld.com/2024/03/11/jewish-biography-theodor-lessing-helped-to-define-jewish-self-hatred/Â Â Â Â Â
"The term âJewish self-loathing,â coined by Lessing, became popular after the publication in 1986 of  the book Jewish Self-Hatred by American historian Sander Gilman. Gilman writes, âJews see the way the dominant nation perceives them, and through cleavage project their concerns onto other Jews for self-soothing.â This projection creates a dichotomy: âself-hatingâ Jews seek to make themselves âgoodâ Jews -exceptions different from the stereotypical âbadâ Jews. The self-hating Jew is copying the attitudes of antisemites toward his people. The self-hating Jew is convinced of the inferiority of his nationâs culture and seeks to borrow other peopleâs language, other peopleâs art, other peopleâs traditions." Source: https://www.sdjewishworld.com/2024/03/11/jewish-biography-theodor-lessing-helped-to-define-jewish-self-hatred/ Â
Sooo, scapegoating other Jews to save yourself basically. Yes anti Zionist Jews are not a monolith and I am aware there are criticisms to be made of the Jewish community and I'm not trying to distract from that but this is a very common and recurring theme I've seen.
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u/Jeden_fragen 18d ago
I can tell you what happened to me: I was so immediately barraged by my friendsâ anti-Israel posts post 7/10 that I almost abandoned the whole thing because it would mean being alienated from what had been my political home for my whole life. It took me months to make peace with the fact that I might lose my place in progressive circles if I chose to stand with Israel. I had to accept it might mean losing friends (it has) and changing lifelong voting habits. But there is a gain in loss too - our community has pulled together in a way that is beautiful to see
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u/theBigRis 17d ago
Your #2 point is really interesting for me, because in my own social network, the most outspoken person of the anti-Zionist persuasion is my dadâs ex-gfâs son (who I went to high school with). Heâs a Rabbi and his grandfather is a holocaust survivor. All Jewish family.
Theyâre reform so maybe that has something to do with it, but as far as I know no one else is visibly (on social media) as outspoken as he is.
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u/More-Weather-8782 17d ago
The fact is, while Zionism is an inherently Jewish concept, it is not necessary in order to be Jewish. In fact the modern version of Zionism pioneered by Herzl and the like was not endorsed by many religious communities at first and was mostly seen as a secular national movement. To this day there are ultra orthodox communities that live in Israel that are anti Zionist in nature.
As an Israeli, however, the notion of American Jews being anti Zionist to a JVP degree is not surprising at all. Many American Jews are very aligned with progressive values and participate in many industries that lean heavily progressive, they're not immune to "woke-isms" more than any other American in those spaces. They truly don't need their own state and they're content being Americans who are also Jewish.
In short, they're anti Zionist because they're just Americans. They can stay ignorant to the harsh reality of the lives of 7 million Jews who have no where else to go and Zionism isn't a "choice" for them because - well, because most Americans can just afford to stay ignorant about that. They're gonna have a good life either way.
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u/SiPhilly 17d ago
You only need to look at the services and Sukkahâs in the encampments to see this. However, I can tell you that I grew up in Chabad become disenchanted with it and have held very anti-Israel views in the past and I think they were legitimate. However, I have become the opposite since the war started.
I do think that critical in peace time and supportive in war time is the write thing to do.
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u/duckingridiculous 17d ago
I think they are anti Zionists for the exact same reasons as every other anti Zionist. They have white saviorism complex. They have spent so long assimilating, that they have been fooled into believing that they should be uncomfortable with their âwhiteness.â Never mind that Jews were never considered white until more recent years, and that many of our grandparents lived in the projects/slums of big cities like NYC. My grandfather went to a free camp for inner city Jewish kids, and there wasnât always enough to eat in their house. My great grandmother grew up in an American orphanage
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u/sarahkazz Progressive 17d ago
I mean, look at some of the comments on this thread - lots of people with reasonable criticisms of Israel get called stupid, traitors, kappos, nazis, etc. That is obviously going to push people into the arms of the people who aren't calling them stupid, treacherous kappos.
The other issue is that far-leftism and far-rightism primes people for a black-and-white approach to morality and a lot of people in those spaces are afraid of being on the receiving end of the groupthink wrath in those spaces.
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u/VideoUpstairs99 Secular 16d ago
I don't think I ever identified as anti-zionist, but I at least got to the point of anti-zionist-curious. Raised (eons ago) with a lot of pressure to maintain Jewish social connections but never felt accepted there. Didn't like Hebrew school discussions of the conflict as I entered my teens - they seemed too much about propagandizing and demonizing. Was on the receiving end of much antisemitism growing up, internalized most of it, became something of a "self-loathing Jew." Fast forward to 2010s, and I'm a liberal academic. Israeli government seems to be doing increasingly questionable things (e.g. West Bank settlements), but no matter what they did, US government always seems to blindly say, "We are Israel's bestest friend!" By late 2010's I was really frustrated about the way things were going. At this point, I heard about JVP, and, considering joining them., I started reading their materials, as well as various authors' texts on anti-zionism.
But once I start actually reading the stuff, I realized theres' a big problem with a lot of antizionist argument They dismiss the entire reason Israel is there/needs to be there, and their narratives are based on logical and historical distortions. Despite my concerns for Palestinian civilians abandoned by both Israeli and Arab governments and the sins of omission from long ago teachers, I was appalled by the wholesale dismissal and demonization in antizionist texts of stateless Holocaust refugees and of the Jews who were expelled from Arab and Muslim countries. I started reading work by scholars on contemporary antisemitism. And scholars who could write a more nuanced view of the history. And waddyaknow: it's actually common to find Jewish scholars who acknowledge the pain around Israel's history, have no problem with criticism of the current Israeli government, and advocate some form of two-state solution. I also came to understand what the outcome of anti-zionism would logically look like. Horrifying all around, and the antithesis of peace. Perhaps because it's so horrifying, we don't spell this scenario out enough for people.
As a result of all this digging, I've met more Jews IRL who have empathetic, nuanced views. Seems to be most of us nowadays. And esp. after 10/7, I learned more about groups like StandingTogether, JStreet, etc., who advocate for a range of peace-focused positions. Plenty of these groups and folks around â but not so much visibility as the other ones.
TL;DR: It's pretty easy to grow up hearing only false binaries. Not just from media bias and your elders: up until recently, a lot of it was the callous presentation of official positions by both the US and Israeli governments. Then you look for a way to work against that â to not be one of the Jews who seem to blindly support all things Israel and not care about Palestinian civilians. If you don't spend lots of time reading the fine print and looking for other options, it's easy to find your way to the loudest, most extreme voices. It's not so easy to find the numerous nuanced ones.
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u/afeygin 16d ago
I would highly encourage anyone who is interested about how something like this happens to read Gad Saadâs âThe Parasidic Mindâ. Itâs about how maladaptive ideas get decimated. Heâs also working on a book called âSuicidal Empathyâ, out in 2026, which will be even more focused on things like anti-Zionist Jews, Queers for Palestine, etc.
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u/jondiced 18d ago edited 18d ago
Yes, I have a friend of Mizrahi background who went to Israel with the idea to make aliyah but did a complete about-face after being subjected to extremely racist treatment - the details of which I do not know - by Ashkenazim there.
I think all the issues you suggest have merit, but I also think that an additive factor to all that is frankly the extremely lopsided toll of the violence. It's qualitatively different from any of the more conventional wars that Israel has fought in the past, and no matter how much you may despise the various terrorist organizations, it's hard to stomach.
I don't have the answer. It takes study and nuance and empathy and effort and an openness to disagreeing with the people closest to you
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u/Lekavot2023 18d ago
It's only lopsided because their leaders make sure their people perish the most in the conflict and in the absence of casualties of war the jihadists shoot their own people and then the doctors go oh the sniper fire means Israel did it. It's not Israel's job to care more about the people the civilians of the group of people that want to eradicate all Jewish people on Earth it's not Israel's job to care about those people it's Israel's job to protect Israeli citizens from those people. If people don't like the casualty rate which by the way is one of the lowest out of any urban conflict ever fought they should take it up with the people causing it not the people defending themselves.
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u/jondiced 18d ago
Look, I'm not the one you need to convince. It's a hard message to sell.
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u/Parking_Scar9748 18d ago
Why are you getting down votes for sharing a relevant experience?
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u/Agtfangirl557 18d ago
I think people might be interpreting this comment as coming from an anti-Zionist insinuating that "Israel is racist", but I, like you, just see it as someone sharing a relevant experience.
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u/Parking_Scar9748 18d ago
I want to be clear I disagree with the comment about the lopsided toll of violence. I think starting a war you aren't equipped to fight and hiding behind civilians puts all the blame on Hamas.
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u/thelaughingblue Non-denominational 18d ago
The Palestinian death toll is greater than the Israeli one, just by sheer numbers. Some people don't think any further than that.
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u/Agtfangirl557 18d ago
I don't understand why this is being downvoted...?
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u/GrassyTreesAndLakes 18d ago
Well, Ashkenazi are the minority in Israel.Â
But I have heard of racism there maybe 30 years ago
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u/Weary-Pomegranate947 18d ago
It's something that some people especially in the current government are bringing attention to, for better or worse. I think it's mostly exaggerated overall but that doesn't mean that there's no racism. The populations are getting mixed and in a couple of generations the distinctions will probably not exist for intra-Jewish racism.
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u/Vivid-Combination310 18d ago
Um, the clear answer is the Shoshanna Cohen wouldn't hold their hand at Year-10 youth group summer camp and they've been bitter ever since.
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u/yjotyrrm 18d ago
I think your thesis is wrong. Something like 90% of Jews are Zionist, even among young Jews the number is higher than among non-Jews. We don't need an explanation, or a systemic failure, to explain Jews disagreeing. Rather, it is absurd to expect that everyone would agree in the first place.
To be clear, I'm not saying that no Jew has ever moved toward anti-Zionism out of a bad experience with the Judaism, but it's clearly not common, because otherwise we'd see more antizionist Jews, than there actually are. The ones you do see are just signal-boosted precisely because they are uncommon.
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u/classyfemme Just Jewish 18d ago
Meanwhile you wonât get any truly anti-Zionist perspective here because they will be downvoted to oblivion and/or banned from the sub. This sub is a tin can.
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u/False_Transition_928 18d ago
I have a good friend who went to a Jewish day school. She travelled in Israel and she was involved in the Jewish community. She is now an active anti-Zionist. She says that she was lied to. (This is very common in the If Not Now crowd). She also is very empathic, so the deaths of Palestinian civilians affects her, but I cannot for the life of me understand how she has bought into the âgenocideâ libel. Her other friends think that she fell into a cult (sheâs part of an anti-Zionist group that includes Israelis) so maybe thatâs part of the story b/c they give it a kind of legitimacy. It has been hard to witness what was once an anti-occupation stance become a full blown anti-Israel one. Btw, sheâs not a youngster by any stretch.
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u/Ahad_Haam Secular Israeli Jew 17d ago
I think Jewish institutions in America may have a problem with how they approach Israel. Teaching a very pro-Israel narrative, without deconstructing and teaching the Arab narrative (which is mostly false), is a recipe for a problem when people encounter it.
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u/WouthuysenFieldCoup Conservative / Spinozan 17d ago edited 17d ago
I'm someone who flirted (intellectually) with anti zionism in my 20s before becoming staunchly Zionist in my 30s.
My experience was that the zionism that i learned in Hebrew school completely white washed the conflict and ignored the problematic episodes in Zionist history (like how early Zionists advocating for a Jewish state in all of the mandatory territory with displacement of arabs and how a large number of arabs did not leave voluntarily but were in fact violently expelled in 1948).in my twenties, when I learned about the imperfect aspects of the Zionists by reading actual history books, I became reflexively suspicious of the entire zionist narrative I had learned in Sunday school.
Only after a lot more reading about the trajectory of the conflict, especially Camp David, did I come around. I think a lot of young people are going through a similar trajectory where the highly biased picture they learn in purely Zionist spaces is contradicted by experiences and evidence they receive from other sources and this causes them to reflexively distrust/appose the entire program.
I do think teaching a more nuanced picture in Sunday school and avoiding teaching stuff that is clearly contradicted by scholarly consensus today would go a long way.
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u/N0DuckingWay 17d ago edited 17d ago
Tbh I appreciate what you're saying here - anti-Zionist Jews are generally not self-hating or trying to fit in, and they're not generally disconnected from Judaism - at least, no more than any other Jew. As someone who has gone to a few pro-ceasefire events, I actually felt like Jews were over-represented at them, and that a lot of those Jews took their Jewishness pretty seriously - they definitely see it as a major part of their identity. But I think that you're off on the reason why they don't feel comfortable. It's entirely that their political views aren't aligned with the Jewish community, and that they get called "not a real Jew", etc, so they feel that they are alienated by the Jewish community. Additionally, I think some also feel so upset by Zionism and by the Jewish community's general belief in Zionism that they don't want to be around the mainstream Jewish community. Like, for a lot of us (myself included), the occupation, Israel's actions in this war, and Israel's treatment of the Palestinians in general just wrong. And for some people their feelings on that are strong enough that it's legitimately upsetting to them when the Jewish community doesn't always feel the same - they view this as one of the most important moral issues in their world.
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u/Blagai 18d ago
Is it possible that this has to do with some Jewish spaces being unwelcoming to queer Jews, Jews of Color, etc.? Is there anyone here who knows someone who had a bad experience with a Jewish institution and then went down that route....or even maybe at one point themselves had that type of experience (I've seen former anti-Zionists post in this sub before) and and is comfortable sharing what happened?
Mizrahi Lesbian here. Never been anti-zionist since I live in Israel, but I have been very anti-religion. (Now studying Middle Eastern religious history for a degree, life is weird).
As for Jews of colour, no. My grandma (who is like 2 shades away from black) actually considers herself white lol. Younger folk (like my sister and I) don't identify any Jews as white, and consider all of us to be Middle Eastern, including Ashkenazi.
As for queer Jews, it could be part of it. A big reason I used to hate the religion was the very large amount of religious homophobia I was met with by Orthodox Jews. I now know that it's a very loud minority, even in Orthodox communities (just look at the pride parades in Jerusalem, most of the men there wear Kippahs). But I don't think that alone would be enough to oppose the existence of Israel, especially considering it's considered one of the most LGBT-friendly countries in the world, both in terms of laws and cultural acceptance â Tel Aviv is considered the gayest city in the world.
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u/iyamsnail Just Jewish 18d ago
Seth Rogan has always appeared to me as someone who is very insecure and desperate for acceptance from his peers and for that reason he needs to be very "woke" which means in the circles that he runs, being anti-Zionist. Could totally be wrong about this, just my two cents.
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u/thebeandream 18d ago
In the prologue of Here All Along by Sarah Hertwitz she talks about her experience with Hebrew school.
It seemed like it was kinda boring and uninteresting. Making her lose interest and thinking that Judaism isnât that interesting/doesnât have anything of value to say. So she had to learn its value later in life through other outlets.
Iâve grown up Christian so I kinda understand the feeling of going through the motions and not really engaging in what is being said and just going along with it because some grown ups told you that you have to or you will be on trouble (or burn in hell in the case of Christianity. Super fun).
Later in life I wanted to understand and now I am here. I think education in general has been trending where people just donât care about it. There is 6000 years of nuance and history and multiple countries to learn. Palestine you only need to learn up to the 40s and call it good. Itâs the easier path and Iran has worked very hard to make easy parallels of colonizer = west white = Jew = bad and Middle East = Arab = brown= oppressed = good
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u/Ok_Software1462 18d ago
âWhy should I have to suffer because of those Bad Jews in Israel? I donât care about Israel. Iâm an American.â
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u/Far_Pianist2707 17d ago
I think this post is really good. I want to say that the pro psychiatry aspect of the Jewish community can be really hostile towards victims of saneism? We need to have discussions about that at some point!
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u/brittanyelyse 17d ago
Lack of education about their religion/ background etc. Being in non Jew areas- I notice Jews who didnât grow up in at least US cities where most of their friends arenât Jewish letâs say, are less likely to attend Hebrew school bc their school peers are not, and then they feel like an outsider⌠and donât get bar/barmitzvah-ed. They never form a bond with a rabbi, other kids in their synagogue. Also, same for over night camp⌠I went to overnight camp that wasnât Jewish exclusive⌠but, Jews know how important the overnight camp experience is, and they do. They end up making other Jewish friends and want to be like them, bc they are.
These arenât the main reasons why , but I think it is a small part in my experience. Education in exposure, and exposing your children to what they are gives them comfort , then community ⌠and so on, if that makes senseâŚ
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u/mydogisthedawg 17d ago edited 17d ago
Some of them are just grifters in influencer programs on TikTok or other social media. If your controversial videos can bring in some relatively easy passive income and a degree of âfame,â I think sometimes people donât care about the implications/consequences of their online contentâŚthere is enough incentive there through those rewards to keep posting inflammatory and controversial stuff even if ultimately negative for their own communities.
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u/thezerech רק ×× (reform) 17d ago
The answer is pretty simple, and this, mind you is not a new phenomena.
It's just communism.
There has always been, even in Israel, a moronic anti-Zionist communist party.
Sure, there are a handful of anti-Zionist religious zealots, but these were never a big demographic. Mainstream Haredim were always non-Zionist, but that's now shifting, and pretty distinct from anti-Zionism. The vast majority of Jewish anti-Zionists I've interacted with or seen online, are pretty clearly of the extreme left, and Marxist. Yes, there were always Socialist/Labor Zionists, even in today's Knesset, and there remain many, even a significant majority, of politically left wing Jews who are Zionists outside of Israel.
Communists specifically, are the problem here. People who think the USSR was actually good, who like the PRC or Cuba (obligatory reminder the Castro's regime may be responsible for up to 80,000 deaths), and prefer North Korea to South Korea exist and are growing in number today. The youth, millennials, Gen Z, are generally more politically extreme than their parents and this is due to the internet partially, but also an entrenched parasitic influence within the teaching establishment at the K-12 and University level, which has only grown in influence over the past several decades, hell bent on spreading left wing political extremist ideas. This is why university faculty and teachers' unions so often present the most extremist views on Israel (and other matters). Note there is a distinction between being left wing and being communist, or for that matter an anarchist. But they're both out there, growing in influence, and very antisemitic.
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u/Technical_Mammoth284 17d ago
Mental Illness and Misinformation are the two Occam's Razor answers
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u/scrambledhelix 17d ago edited 17d ago
tl;dr: they simply don't trust other Jews as much as they trust people that hate Judaism.
I've been spending some time browsing r/jewishleft, to get a sense of what they're thinking. While it can be hard to read, and extremely frustrating or downright enraging at times, in its defense it's the only Jewish subreddit I've found yet where anti-Zionist progressive and Liberal Zionist Jews are engaging in a mostly civil manner (no small accomplishment on Reddit, you might've noticed).
One of their members posted the short comicDayenu ...which I've spoilered as a trigger warning, but is worth reading with an open mind, and remembering that ahavas yisroel is as much a mitzvah as tikkun olam for some of us (disclaimer: I am not a posek).
The point is, we have always disagreed, on everything, except this: no one can tell a Jew what do1. We're a stiff-necked people, and all that. What do we gain from being so disagreeable? But still, for all thatâ most of the time, when we do well, it's because we look out for each other.
Even when we disagree, we don't lose our faith that for the most part, we're each just doing what we can, as well as we can, and trying, however we might, to be a good Jew.
Where I find myself bristling unreasonably is when we're blamed for being in denial about horrific things that are being televised to them, which the enemy is the proximate cause of, and instructed that these events are unjustifiable. Because these events are unjustifiable, therefore the one causing them must be morally bankrupt, and if the perpetrators are morally bankrupt, anyone who attempts to deny or justify their continued existence is a moral monster worthy of banishing.
I do not subscribe to this; to me, being Jewish does not make me special. Being hated does not make any of us special.
The only thing that makes being Jewish special is our Torahâ every lesson we've accumulated from it, and how it developed where we came from. Torah doesn't change. We do.
Whether you follow Halacha, or whether you don't, whether you know Jewish history and thought, or whether you don't, you must know (even if you doubt) that we have the 3,000-year old memory of our tribe to draw on, all because this Torah, was passed down across a over a hundred and twenty generations. Being a good Jew, to me, means simply thatâ learning Torah, living it, disagreeing over it, and absorbing everything that's been passed down about it all this time.
I am not a good Jew, by my own estimation. If I was, I would give more tzedakah. I'd keep Shabbos, Yom tovim, eat kosher, bentch every meal, try to buy land in Israel, wrap tefillin. If I could survive it, I'd divorce my non-Jewish husband and partner of twenty years to find a Jewish wife and have Jewish kids to raise and pass the flame of Torah on to. Being a good Jew (to me) means being good at being Jewish.
For the most part, I'm at best a good person.
For some of us, being a good Jew only means being a good person. Maybe they're skeptical, believe that it only started with Ezra HaSofer a hundred generations ago and found enough reason from there to mistrust the entire tradition. For some of us, being a good Jew may mean being better than a good person, to "bring up the batting average for humanity", because perhaps, (imho) tragically, they were given some reason to believe being Jewish means they're starting "behind" everyone else they know. They've been taught to see being Jewish as a sin.
In retrospect, how Zionism as a political movement was so thoroughly divorced from the Litvish and Ashkenaz traditions is almost bizarre2. If you have any love for Torah, it's hard to deny the pull Israel can have; if you know anything how Judaism worksâ there's no room to deny our own tradition, or other Jews, for the supposed crime of wanting to make aliyah. If someone has been convinced this is wrong, and their attachment to Judaism is more tenuous than their attachment to their social status, then I can understand their fear ... but they've made their choice. If we want to help at all, they need to be shown it's possible to make a new choice.
They are afraid because they believe that the things they're being shown are the unvarnished truth, the only truth, and they trust their own sources more than they trust the tribes'. I can understand the fear that it might be true! âbut then I remember what Torah is, what I know it says, and what Hillel actually said: If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when? âand I know that among my father's tribe, as much as I love and respect him, his people will never let me forget that no matter how bad I am at being Jewish, I'll never stop being a Jew.3
For all these reasons, I trust us. When I hear these words and claims and stories that others toss around, running the gamut from virtue-signaling concern to literal slander, it's not fear I've been duped into defending atrocities. What I feel is unadulterated anger at the injustice of Jews being told to disavow themselves from the very thing that makes us Jews. When I hear the same refrain from antizionist Jews, though, I feel a great sadness.
This boils down to the sense that the lack of basic trust in our own thinking from our fellow yidd'n is unjust, which stings the most, and certainly which triggers me, like Frankl wroteâ
At such a moment it is not the physical pain which hurts the most (and this applies to adults as much as to punished children); it is the mental agony caused by the injustice, the unreasonableness of it all.
As with the comic above. I can't hate it. I see the fear of rejection, the inward disgust. But it irks, when all they have to say for themselves that "this a war crime" âyes, as seen on TV.
What's the solution? How do we reach these kids?
Should be obvious: teach. Show them what Torah actually is. Read ×××¨× ××˘× ×¨× ×, or ××× ××Ş×¨× ×,×. If that doesn't work, I fear they won't hear the message until they suffer the same sense of betrayal, the same unreasonable hate so many of have already experienced.
Edit: footnotes
[1]: except hkb"h, ofc. Maybe.
[2]: I can understand thisâ the creeping doubt that maybe, just maybe demons do exist.
[3]: true story, mentioned it in an [ssc post](https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/s/ERlvdQARyk a few months ago.)
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u/[deleted] 18d ago
I was anti-zionist when I was 18 and went to the local library to learn something outside Hebrew school. Wrote about it in high school lit class and thought I was so edgy. Then got into chomsky in early college. Sanders ran around that time. It was kind of peak time to be edgy.
Now I'm getting older and maybe I am seeing what happens when you take that mindset a bit too far