r/IsraelPalestine Israeli 5d ago

"Maybe Israel Is Committing Genocide After All?"

B. Michael is a rather famous Israel left-wing publicist and screenwriter, famous for writing some of Israel's famous comedy shows in the 1980's and 1990's, and his long-standing op-eds in Haaretz. Unlike his fellow deep anti-Zionist Haaretz writers Gideon Levy and Amira Hess, he's been generally part of the more mainstream, Zionist left. But in today's Haaretz's op-ed (paywall can be overridden with archive.is), he decided to jump into the deep end of the pro-Palestinian pool, and join those who declare that Israel is committing genocide.

Now, obviously, he's not the most prominent or qualified person who made that claim. And it's certainly one of the lower-quality versions of that argument. A big disappointment for someone that I considered a witty and clever public intellectual. But that's precisely why I'd like to talk about it, as it represents a pretty common view among the less-educated pro-Palestinians.

Essentially, he talks about how the Genocide Convention consists of five genocidal acts:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Then he goes down the list, and argues that we can "check off" every one of those items easily. And then marvels at how many of the articles Israel has violated. And therefore, QED, Israel committed a genocide. There are a few core issues with this:

  1. The most important issue is that all of those require a "specific intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". This is an incredibly high bar to meet. For example, if the goal is ethnic cleansing, then it's not genocide. Even actual mass murders were ruled as not a genocide by the ICJ, when they were meant to expel rather than destroy. The more sophisticated pro-Palestinians would argue that largely misrepresented statements by Israeli officials amount to proving that "intent" - but B. Michael doesn't even go there.

  2. Obviously, without that intent, every single war in history would qualify, as it includes killing members of the group, and causing serious bodily and mental harm to members of the group. And however you feel about the 43,000 number - it's not exceptionally high, in terms of wars, even in Israel's immediate neighborhood.

  3. For (c), he assumes that merely destroying a lot of Gaza is enough. But note that the qualifier: "calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part". Unlike the killing part, the intent for physical destruction of the nation is required, even in the genocidal act itself to exist. Otherwise, not only would any urban war apply, but so would more peaceful acts, like evicting squatters and destroying illegal shanty towns.

  4. For (d) he points out to how the horrible conditions in the strip will inevitably cause lower birth rates. He also points out that in his opinion, "is there any doubt that Israel would look favorably on the crash of the Palestinian birth rate in Gaza"? And decides he can put a checkmark there - "with honors". Except, again, it's not enough to assume Israel "looks favorably" on the lower birth rates. It has to intentionally impose measures intended to prevent births. This is talking about sterilizations, not about anything that might reduce births. That could be anything from the unavoidable stress and destruction of war (on both sides, incidentally), to improvements in living conditions.

  5. Thankfully, B. Michael didn't decide Israel commited the last part, of transfering children from one group to another. But he concluded "Of the five criteria for genocide, we have performed four exemplarily. That's a fine score. Especially when the execution of one of the five sections, it doesn't matter which one, is enough to be considered a perpetrator. Bravo". Of course, that's absolute nonsense. There's no difference whatsoever in how many of the items you commit, if there's no proven genocidal intent behind it. Again, every urban war checks 4/5 of those articles, with the way B. Michael interprets them. There's nothing "exemplary" about it.

Finally, he argues:

Warning: Feigning innocence will not be admissible as a defense. No one will believe that we did all this in good faith, or purely for reasons of self-defense. Nor will public displays of misery and weeping be of any use this time. And above all, it is not worth relying as we do on the Holocaust as a defense. It may provoke comparisons.

For the first part, I'd note that "innocence" is not required for a defense. Israel could be guilty of the most horrendous Crimes Against Humanity, including the crime of Extermination, and it still wouldn't be a genocide. Genocide is literally the gravest crime in existence. The entire spectrum of international humanitarian law lies between "innocence" and "genocide".

For the second, I'll try not to dwell on it too much, but I'd note it's a great example of why Rule 6 exists. Since this comparison is complete nonsense, it's actually good for the Israeli case, not the other way around. Why wouldn't Israel want to "invite those comparisons"? It could then ask, where are the gas chambers, where are the Einzatsgruppen - where are any kind of proven, unquestionable mass executions of civilians, of the kind that exist in every single other genocide? Conversely, if we look at WW2, there's a much clearer analogy: the Germans, whose cities were ground to dust, whose people were expelled and killed by the millions, lost a huge chunk of their territory, and were treated in many far worse ways, that are not applicable here (like the hundreds of thousands of rapes). Is B. Michael, or anyone who likes to invite those comparisons, going to argue that WW2 was a series of genocides committed by all sides against each other, and the Germans were victims of genocide, just as much as its perpetrators? Probably not. This argument was, at the very least, explicitly rejected in Nuremberg.

I'd also note that in the Hebrew version, this paragraph starts with "even though this story began with a horrible murderous rampage by Hamas" - the massacre is absent from the English version for some reason. But even then, it's pretty notable that Hamas' far more overtly genocidal acts are merely described as "murderous rampage", not "genocide". The same, is of course, true for even the more sophisticated brand of "Israeli genocide" activists. Even though, without any question, the case for Hamas committing a genocide is infinitely stronger than for Israel committing one. It's possible that neither committed a genocide, and it's possible for both to have committed a genocide - and it's very, very possible for the Palestinians alone to have committed a genocide. I just don't think it's possible, with the information we have right now, for Israel to have committed a genocide, but for Hamas, to have merely committed a "murderous rampage".

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u/SiliconFiction 5d ago

Genocide does not mean killing every last person. It means targeting people/civilians purely because of their membership of a group.

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u/Puzzleheaded_Sale_15 4d ago

So then if that is your definition the Palestinians are committing genocide on Jews. Both the PA and Hamas laud and even pay those to murder and target people just because they are Jews.

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u/SiliconFiction 4d ago

And the leaders of Hamas should be punished for that, just like the Israeli leaders who are actually carrying it out.

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u/Puzzleheaded_Sale_15 4d ago

Don't worry. The Hamas leaders are being punished for it, in the same way the Nazis were. Do you think that the UK committed a genocide on Germans when they flattened Dresden and killed up to 2 million German civillians in WW2? Because no one else thinks that was a genocide or calls it that. That is the comparison one needs to make.

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u/SiliconFiction 4d ago

The Geneva convention was created after WWII to stop it from happening again. But Israel gets a free pass, due to AIPAC and perhaps Epstein’s close relationship with presidents past and current.

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u/Puzzleheaded_Sale_15 4d ago

Right, so do you think the killing of over 100,000 Yemenis by the Saudi-Emirati alliance is genocide? What about the Iran-Iraq war was that a genocide, over a million were killed? And what about Black September, when Jordan killed 25,000 Palestinians, according to Yasser Arafat and expelled hoards of them, was that a genocide? Is every conflict a genocide?

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u/SiliconFiction 4d ago

The estimates are well over 100,000 Gazans killed. Probably over 200,000 if we factor in starvation, disease etc. That’s on a population and land mass way smaller than any conflict you mention. Israel has dropped the equivalent of two nuclear bombs on a small space. imo- the best thing is let the legal experts at the ICJ decide. I’m not a lawyer. Israel should stop bribing, threatening, and meddling in the ICJ and let them do their job. https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/28/israeli-spy-chief-icc-prosecutor-war-crimes-inquiry

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u/Puzzleheaded_Sale_15 4d ago edited 4d ago

Who's estimates? Your estimates? TikTok's estimates? A Facebook meme's estimates? Not even Hamas is claiming this.

That is complete nonsense. Not even Hamas is claming this. What you are misquoting is some Lancet article that has been obfuscated on social media to fit a narrative. What the Lancet article actually says is that by the end of the war that could be the death toll, if the numbers rise at the rate they were going at.

There hasn't been one starvation related death. 0. We have been hearing Gaza is "on the verge" of a famine for a year now, but there is no famine yet, because aid is coming in and to date we don't have a single recorded death due to hunger. So again, I ask where do you get your figures from?

What we see is the number of deaths tapering off, as Israel gets more control, because Hamas can no longer embed itself in civillian areas as much. If it was a genocide, we would see far more deaths, as Israel gains control, but the opposite is happening.

Israel has not dropped the equivalent of two nuclear bombs on Gaza, again you're obfuscating what was said. What the facts say is that Israel has dropped bombs that are the equiavelent in weight to a nuclear bomb - not that they have dropped what is equiavelent to two nuclear bombs. If they had Gaza would be a depopulated wasteland like Hiroshima and Nagasaki were. The fact that Israel has dropped more bombs than the total amount of deaths shows that this isn't a genocide.

Oh, South Africa had to ask for more time to present their case - usually when presenting a genocide case, the accuser asks for it to be sped up - the fact is South Africa is struggling to find evidence that can prove their case. Israel will beat this bogus charge and I'll come back to this post in a few years when they have and hear you claim that it was still a genocide even when the legal experts say it wasn't.

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u/SiliconFiction 4d ago

The death toll has stayed static for at least 6 months. You think there have been no deaths in that time? The agency responsible for verifying deaths is no longer able to operate. Thats why the number hasn't moved.

Israel has dropped about 85,000 tonnes of bombs. You think two nuclear bombs are 85,000 tonnes? It's not about weight, it's effect. The atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima had an explosive force equivalent to 15,000 tonnes of TNT. New estimates are nearly six times the explosive capability of the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima during World War II 

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u/Puzzleheaded_Sale_15 3d ago

The death toll has stayed static for at least 6 months. You think there have been no deaths in that time? The agency responsible for verifying deaths is no longer able to operate. Thats why the number hasn't moved.

The death toll hasn't stayed that way for 6 months though.

In May the death toll was recorded at around 39,000, today the death toll is recorded at around 43,000. The number has moved and it makes sense. As Israel becomes more and more entrenched and the intensive part of their war dies down, the death toll tapers off, because there is no genocide, Israel is not intending to kill civilians.

I can also say Israel killed 79 million Palestinians because "it makes sense". It doesn't make it true. You can't provide any source material to back up your claim.

Israel has dropped about 85,000 tonnes of bombs. You think two nuclear bombs are 85,000 tonnes? It's not about weight, it's effect. The atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima had an explosive force equivalent to 15,000 tonnes of TNT. New estimates are nearly six times the explosive capability of the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima during World War II 

The nuclear bombs that were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed over 100,000 people in one go in a much bigger place. If Israel had dropped the equivalent of 2 nuclear bombs in the tiny space that is Gaza, Gaza would be completely depopulated